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What's Too Much for Johan Santana?

I've speculated before that if Johan Santana leaves the Twins without a serious contract offer, that Carl Pohlad should never leave his house again. Ever.  And if he has a butler or something, he probably needs to try to get someone he trusts to build a robotic one. And put a 25 ft electric fence around the border of his property. And dig a moat. But he shouldn't dig it himself, because someone in a tree just outside the fence with a rifle will shoot him.

All that aside, a survey of Twins blogs should make you aware that fans of that team are as knowledgeable if not moreso than any other fanbase in the league. Aaron Gleeman, SB Nation's own Twinkie Town and Stick and Ball Guy are just three examples. Would the fanbase as a whole be accepting of a Santana-free roster in return for a king's/fool's ransom of prospects in return? I can't answer that question, but I thought it'd be fun for all of us to speculate on the kind of package the Sox might have to send to the Twins if he were on the block this winter.

According to Buster Olney via MLBTR, it would take "three prospects plus a young big leaguer" to get a deal done. In order to minimize fan dissonance, I have to assume that the Twins probably aren't interested in anyone below AA, though I would guess Lars Anderson might still come up in conversations. Most of our best prospects are pitchers, which is a lot like the Twins situation. However, acquiring some of ours means they could mix and match, keep who they want and use the others to try to acquire position talent from the Devil Rays or something. Now I'm getting ahead of myself.

Red Sox prospects that have value to other teams:

  • Clay Buchholz, SP: Obvious reasons here. A good young SP with less mileage on his arm than most other 23 year olds.
  • Michael Bowden, SP: Have to be fair and say his stock has fallen a bit. However, he doesn't turn 21 until September, and he has struck out 45 in his last 50 2/3 at the AA-level.
  • Justin Masterson, SP: Will turn 23 in March next year. He has had a couple rough starts lately for Portland (both 5 IP, 8 or more H, 2 BB, and 7+ER). Hopefully this is just hurried market correction, because he's still got 51 Ks in 49 IP, almost 4 GBs for every FB, and a 1.04 WHIP. Unless he puts up a few more stinkers, he's probably past Bowden for the moment.
  • Jed Lowrie, SS/2B: Jed has hit for power and average at Pawtucket, at near the same clips he did in the Eastern League. However, he's only walked 5 times in just under 110 PAs. His track record suggests this skill will return. With Jason Bartlett coming into his own, he'd probably fill the 2B hole for the Twins if included.
  • Lars Anderson, 1B: A hitting line of .290/.384/.447 is very encouraging for the not-yet 20 year old. Have to assume the slugging will rise as his body continues to fill out. It is hard to see how he'd fit in the Twins future with Morneau blocking him at 1B, though presumably he'd make a pretty good DH in a couple of years. He could also be hung onto for a year or so and then flipped.
  • Jacoby Ellsbury, CF: What's lacking from Ellsbury is anything resembling power. I would have thought his speed would turn some of his singles into doubles, but that hasn't happened yet. Nonetheless, he's a legitimate top of the order option with his patience and speed (30 for 36 in SBs, 83% success rate), and can run down anything in the outfield.
Young Big Leaguers:
  • Coco Crisp, CF: I won't bore you with stats, though looking through them makes it quite clear that a few ML CFs are in a class of their own defensively, and Coco is one of them. He's slumped a bit the last couple of weeks, but his 2nd half batting line suggests that he's getting back to being the player he was in Cleveland, finally. (.283/.366/.394)
  • DP, 2B: Perish the thought, right? Well, when looking at the Sox roster for Young Big Leaguers, he fits the bill. Pedroia's batting line: .324/.394/.447 is impressive for his rookie season, though despite his obvious skill and fan-favorite status, I doubt very much that he'd be labeled as untouchable.
  • Kevin Youkilis, 1B/3B: It's that second position that's important, as Youks certainly wouldn't supplant Justin Morneau at 1B. He's been horrid in the 2nd half (.209/.325/.328), though thankfully still walking enough not to cause a lot more PT for Eric Hinske. This one seems unlikely because his 2nd half stats are there for everyone to see, and filling both the 3B and 1B holes this winter seems unlikely. Also not as young (29 to begin next season) as he seems sometimes.
If Olney is correct, then I have to think that Buchholz, Bowden OR Masterson, Lowrie, and Crisp would be the likely package going to Minnesota. Worth it to us? To them? Are those 4 players worth potentially only one season of Santana? Will they trade him at all anyway?

Your potential packages and answers to my questions in the comments.

P.S. One more question: Did I unfairly leave Brandon Moss out of the conversation?

[editor's note, by Allen Chace] There is a game story for last night, but I wanted to see if there was any more interest in this topic.

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8/20 OTM
I'll try to move these later:

POTG: Manny

Wake's line: 7IP; 3R; 8H; 2BB; 4K

A&B: Bobby Kielty gets at least 2 hits off Kazmir

by MassGal on Aug 20, 2007 5:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
Pohland is an idiot.  The guy is one of the richest people in the world (much more than Steinberenner and Henry) and he is a penny pincher.  He should do whatever to resign Santana.  As for trades, I'm against the Yanks trading away their top prospects (Joba, Hughes, IPK) for a pitcher that will be a free agent.  I'm pretty sure many of you feel the same way when you know the Sox will also have a chance to get him when he is a FA.

by ReLaunch on Aug 20, 2007 5:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
I wouldn't do the deal without negotiating an extension first. No sense in mortgaging the future for one season of Santana. But for six seasons of Santana? Buchholz, Bowden/Masterson, Ellsbury/Crisp, E. Martinez, you name it. Santana, Beckett, Matsuzaka for the next five plus years is off the hook.

I was unaware how bad Youk has been. That's pretty terrible.

Just my two cents. Keep the change.

by tommy.otm on Aug 20, 2007 6:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
I'd do it for Crisp, Lowrie, Masterson, and Kottaras.

by gnick55 on Aug 20, 2007 7:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
Okay I guess the Twins wouldn't really want Kottaras.

by gnick55 on Aug 20, 2007 7:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
I don't even want Kottaras.

...just kidding. Maybe.

by Allen Chace on Aug 20, 2007 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
This is Youk's second full year in the bigs, so the 2nd half data is still a small sample. I'm not sure that an acquiring team would view it as a certainty he'd slump after the ASB. Last year he acknowledged playing through injury, and it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case again this year (considering all his HBPs). 2nd half slumps are hardly guaranteed; Lowell's batting well since the all-star break, with a .336 /.397 /.453 line (source: Baseball-Reference); he's not entering his typical slump. (Lowell's slugging is down, but his BA and OBP are both up significantly.)

I don't see the Sox getting Santana. If he's a FA, the Yankees will almost certainly win any bidding war. If he's traded, the Sox may not be willing or able to put together the best package.

My proposal: Masterson, Bowden, Anderson, Crisp,  for Santana + contract extension. If the Twins have any power-hitting DH-types they want to throw in for free, so much the better...

by 0157H7 on Aug 20, 2007 11:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
Yeah. Exactly the reason I'm not thrilled about the idea of him hitting FA and why I'm trying to warn Pohlad.

And I should've been clearer. I don't think 2nd half slumps are going to be a guarantee with Youks, just might make the Twins iffy on accepting him as a piece in a potential trade, if he ends this year poorly. (if he were even among the most expendable of our current ML pieces).

by Allen Chace on Aug 20, 2007 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
"If he's a FA..."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we outbid the Yankees for Manny? and didn't we plunk more on Daisuke than any other team?

Believe me, we're capable of outbidding any team for any player.

Bottom 9th B:1 S:0 O:0 With Bill Mueller batting, Dave Roberts steals (1) 2nd base.

by britsoxfan on Aug 21, 2007 4:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
True and true. Though I have barely half a leg to stand on, since I agreed essentially that the Yanks probably hold the cards if Santana reaches FA.

by Allen Chace on Aug 21, 2007 5:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
The Sox were able to win the Dice-K sweepstakes because the bids were blind, and they bid way more than anyone expected. Most of the numbers thrown around before the bidding began were $15, 20 million - the Sox bid $51 million, over 10 million more than the Mets or Yanks. (I'm not sure what the circumstances were that led the Yanks to not outbid the Sox on Manny.) In a bidding war with perfect information, the Sox will lose every time.

I don't see any reason that the Yankees wouldn't go after Santana hard. Clemens, Mussina, and Pettitte are getting up there in years, and losing effectiveness. If Cashman has a chance to lock up one of baseball's best, why wouldn't he offer the sun and the moon (7 years, $30 million)? Unless Santana decides to take a lower salary to play with the Sox (probably unlikely), we'd never sign him as a FA.

Also, the Twins are expecting more revenue from a new stadium, and their billionaire owner could conceivably sign Santana to a massive contract extension.

by 0157H7 on Aug 21, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
"(I'm not sure what the circumstances were that led the Yanks to not outbid the Sox on Manny.)"

I believe they opted to go hard after Moose.

There are a lot of teams that can and will go as high or higher than the Yanks and Sox. Mets, Dodgers, Angels, Mets, Rangers, Mets, Mets, Mets...

Though you know who I think should go for him hard? The D-Rays. They'll still have a small team payroll, so they could afford him. And their nucleus of position players will be hitting their stride, and some of their better pitching prospects (David Price, etc.) will start showing up in 2009. I think a left-handed, two-headed hydra of Santana and Kazmir is the only way the Rays could hope breaking through the Sox-Yanks duopoly.

Just my two cents. Keep the change.

by tommy.otm on Aug 21, 2007 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
"In a bidding war..."

You know what -- and apologies if it looks like I'm unwilling to let this one go, and I'm absolutely not picking on you -- that's not true. It assumes all sorts of things. For starters:

  • that all teams value a player the same way, both in a vacuum, and in terms of value to their squad and future plans
  • that the Yankees have more money than anyone else. Of course, they have more revenue than anyone else, but they don't have the richest owner by some distance. Never mind Stein's fragility.
Actually, the principles aside, I'm fairly sure the Yankees would be in for Santana in a big way. But with the success of the Yankees' young pitchers and farm policy; their need to replace ageing position players; and the inevitable interest from about six or seven clubs in Santana - well, anything can happen.

Springer's final thought: I think the Cubbies will win the bidding if he ever makes the open market. They are the coming team...

Bottom 9th B:1 S:0 O:0 With Bill Mueller batting, Dave Roberts steals (1) 2nd base.

by britsoxfan on Aug 22, 2007 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
Re-sign Red Sox 2007 MVP Mike Lowell, do not re-sign Curt Schilling and do not go after A-Rod. With the incremental savings (Schills 14 million, A-Rod est. 20 million---assuming Lowell re-signs for 10 million and A-Rod would have cost 30 million per year) the Sox can spend over 20 million per year on Santana (or what nowadays is called Zambrano type money). For more details on this see:  http://www.redsoxrantsfromchina.blogspot.com
for a more detailed discussion please see: www.redsoxrantsfromchina.blogspot.com

by Red Sox Rants from China on Aug 21, 2007 3:29 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
Agree with this...Santana is the best pitcher in baseball (by a good margin, IMHO) and should be pursued.  If this means losing Schilling, so be it.  (His last win was...?)  ARod is too expensive for the value he provides - maybe if Manny didn't have another year left on his contract it'd be worth doing, but we also need to consider that Sox fans really dislike ARod.  

I would be willing to give any pitching prospect and almost any position player (except Ortiz) for Santana.  I wouldn't send three pitching prospects, and would try not sending two: Buchholz, Ellsbury and somebody else would be a great deal for the Sox.

by RickD on Aug 21, 2007 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
Who's going to trade for Damon or Giambi?

I think Abreu is a FA this off-season, but I've been hearing that it's more and more likely that he resigns with the Yanks.

Just my two cents. Keep the change.

by tommy.otm on Aug 21, 2007 10:17 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
Abreu has a $16 mil club option for '08. Early reports that I've heard are that it's likely to be picked up.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/new-york-yankees_111398168678860040.html

by Hughie Jennings on Aug 21, 2007 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
Ah yes, I knew it was something like that. Thanks.
Just my two cents. Keep the change.

by tommy.otm on Aug 21, 2007 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
I think the smart money is on them trading Damon. Abreu does have no trade protection.

by Allen Chace on Aug 21, 2007 3:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
Considering the other DH types this available off-season (Bonds, Piazza, Moises Alou) I can't see there being much demand for Damon, unless the Yanks were to eat more than 50% of his contract. Damon no longer has the body of an outfielder, so he's basically a DH. That is a $13 million DH with career OBP and OPS+ of .353 and 103, respectively. By comparison, Jose Vidro is at $7.5 million, .364 and 109, and Seattle was universally laughed at for acquiring him to be their DH. Sure, Damon can run, leadoff, and could play OF sometimes. Maybe the Twins would take him to be their DH, or the A's, but again, I don't see the Yanks getting much in return.
Just my two cents. Keep the change.

by tommy.otm on Aug 21, 2007 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
You're absolutely right, though I think the most the Yanks would even look for is a mid-level prospect and a bit of salary relief.

by Allen Chace on Aug 21, 2007 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
If we could only get ARod or Santana, I'd say we get ARod. Our farm system is stacked with good young pitchers, while our hitting has been our weak point this year. No offense to Santana, I'd say he's the better player, but I think ARod would help more.

by gnick55 on Aug 21, 2007 4:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
This leadership group has identified the value of aces above all else. We have two guys who are legitimate 1 - 1A guys. Getting a third would be outstanding, but I'm not convinced they would believe the trade-off in farm value would be worth it (I assume we'd have to start with Buchholz and Ellsbury, then come up with a mircaculously huge power prospect who doesn't play 1st. Youk isn't going to be he answer.) It also seems more likely the Twins would stick with Johann through Liriano's on-field rehab next year, and only trade Santana at the break if the team wasn't in it.
    The most persuasive argument for the Sox to get Johann is to keep him away from the Yankees.  He would be far more valuable to them, I think, than to us (not to discount his value to us - he is the best in all of baseball).  I think our ideal would be that both A-Rod and Santana go to the NL, and we wouldn't have to battle the Yankees for either one.
   Plus I'm compelled to give Lester, Buchholz et al another year to show the Sox what they have, then decide if we should pursue Santana in fall '08 (if he's still available).

It sure is nice to think about though - Santana, Becket, Daisuke, Lester, Buchholz, Wakefield

by alfredoz on Aug 21, 2007 6:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Haverhill's own.
Word.
Just my two cents. Keep the change.

by tommy.otm on Aug 21, 2007 9:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: What's Too Much for Johan Santana?
Pitching is still something that needs to be beefed up--both this year and next year--although this year it is too late to do much about it. Schilling needs to step up and perform the rest of the way. Lester as well. Dice-K needs to no do something about his maddening inconsistency during the course of any given game (i.e. he cannot allow the one bad inning he has been allowing). Next year we should dump Schills and have insurance in case Lester does not prove he has the stuff. That guy is Santana. Its a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.
for a more detailed discussion please see: www.redsoxrantsfromchina.blogspot.com

by Red Sox Rants from China on Aug 21, 2007 11:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Carlos Pena
I get a feeling someone is going ot give him a silly contract like 4/48, and he just doesn't have the track record to justify it.

by Allen Chace on Aug 22, 2007 3:09 AM EDT reply actions  

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