Don't smack around OTM
I can take a lot of verbal punishment. But when the integrity of my readers is put into question, that's just pushing it:
Japanese translators now? I mean I've seen BoSox fans say some pretty outrageous things before, but this could take the cake. I hit the link and found a mess of Kanji, Hiragana and Katagana. Plus even if it does say something like that, anyone who knows anything about Japanese knows the purpose of the language is to be vague...whilst the demeanor in the culture is to be humble. I have a more empriical conclusion from yesterday's outing: Homeboy got lit up, deal with it.
...
(In response to another O's fan telling the original poster he's a dumbass -- basically. Not those exact words, I guess.)
F All That. The guy got rocked. No apologizing today for the crappy job you do tomorrow. And no posers pretending to be Japanese divining the mind of an overpriced Sumo-sized hype machine. Knott rocks. O's rule. Case closed.
...
(In response to the first comment about the OTM diary)
Forget "Over The Monster". If you want a dead on read of the Red Sox fans visit bostondirtdogs.com. Their level headed commentary eerily mirrors the fan sentiment.
Talk about a laugher. I want to thank ALL my readers for not acting like that one guy. I have a brand new opinion of Orioles fans and it's all thanks to that one, narrow-minded, ignorant poster at Camden Chat.
And that Boston Dirt Dog comment is a really funny one. Yes, BDD has a lot of visitors but that's because they're attracted by the boatload of sensationalism it delivers.
Damn Oriole fans putting me in a bad mood.
Go Sox.
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Re: Don't smack around OTM
And to be fair, it's pretty clear that not all O's fans are morons. There was at least one over there who wasn't.
Re: Don't smack around OTM
Jury still out...
As the "one over there who wasn't", I have to take exception to your comment:
Ummm, strong words about a guy who lost to our sub-.500 team, and whose only brilliance so far is that he handled Boston College. Woo-hoo! Our souvlaki-thrower can strike out geology majors!
That says "moron" to me.
Re: Jury still out...
But hey, if that's your model of a successful season, kudos to you and your team for winning a meaningless game!
Re: Jury still out...
Yeah I'm aware of it.
Are you aware that after this Spring Training game, one of your contributors, took issue with something written on another blog and made it a front-page post over here?
I don't think I'm the one lacking in perspective. :)
Oh, and by the way, are you also aware that the top post on this blog is about your "meaningless", yet "highly anticipated Red Sox/Yankees spring training match-up"?
Re: Jury still out...
It's the top post because the game is tonight. Occasional spring training games are highlighted here for open threads.
Re: Jury still out...
Preview is my friend
Re: Don't smack around OTM
An International Incident
Now with that out of the way, you guys got beat. This media invention from the Land of the Rising Sun got his ass handed to him and it only took two minor leaguers to do the job. We know you guys spent a lot of money on this yet to be tried out commodity, and that the wide and rabid fanbase of the BoSox compels the sports press in this country to closely follow your team's moves. But the fact is that Orioles fans, and everyone else except you, are already sick of hearing about Captain Gyro AND we are all happy that he fell on his face in a Preseason Game. Thems the breaks.
Now if, as your "translator" contends, Matsuzaka needs a Spring Training game to learn that you do not leave pitches up in the strike zone then you guys might be in worse shape than simply going a game back in the Ol' Grapefruit League.
by jonnypops on Mar 12, 2007 4:38 PM EDT reply actions
Re: An International Incident
Yup, Jon Knott, a soon-to-be-29-year-old minor leaguer, was 3 for 4 with a HR--ditto for Jason Dubois, a 28-year old minor leaguer. Both players have good minor league power numbers. Both had a good day at the plate.
But, before you get too excited, remember: the major league Orioles--Roberts, Mora, Gibbons, Tejada, and Ramon Hernandez--were a combined 2 for 13 (2 singles). Impressive!
This is from the New York Daily News:
by Drugs Delaney on Mar 12, 2007 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: An International Incident
by jonnypops on Mar 12, 2007 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: An International Incident
I guess Brian Roberts was also being "facetious" in his post-game comments.
by Drugs Delaney on Mar 12, 2007 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
Re: Don't smack around OTM
by jonnypops on Mar 12, 2007 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
by Drugs Delaney on Mar 12, 2007 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
Re: Don't smack around OTM
WAIT
This is reTAHHHHHHded. Sucks that I am stuck in Boston for now.
Go Orioles. World Series in 2007 and the next twenty years!!
by exitfare on Mar 12, 2007 7:46 PM EDT reply actions
Re: WAIT
Re: Don't smack around OTM
by SC @ Over the Monster on Mar 12, 2007 9:03 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
A few points that I thought I should address:
- From what I have seen, the O's comments are unfairly directed at Sox fans as a group. Please direct the attacks to ME and not to Boston Fans in General. That's why I don't use a pseudonym. The truth is, I'm originally a MARINER'S FAN (the team sadly labeled "Baltimore West" by some in the media)!!!! Therefore, don't say "all sox fans are the same." I'm from Seattle for crying out loud, and I just happen to like the 'Sox (more than the M's lately, in fact). However, I've followed Matsuzaka for 3 years, and saw him pitch live in Japan twice. Sure he doesn't throw a gyroball, but he's an incredibly methodical and intelligent pitcher. When he says BEFORE A GAME, that he plans to experiment a bit, in the way he DID in the game, I tend to believe him. Don't slander Boston Fans when the comment came from somebody on the opposite side of the country, from a different fan base. That is unfair and disingenuous. An apology is owed to Boston Fans in general.
- The Japanese language "can" be vague at time, but that doesn't mean all Japanese people discuss matters in ambiguous terms. This is a horrible stereotype that is often prevalent among people who have not studied the Japanese language extensively. As a native Japanese speaker, I would be more than happy to demonstrate this to anyone who would like to talk with me directly. I'll be more than happy to curse someone in no-uncertain-terms, that will leave NOTHING to the imagination or ambiguity.
3) There are now articles in English which touch on similar points.
Granted this is an MLB.com's article, but I thought I should bring it up.
"This being a team in our same division that we're going to face many, many times, I thought I'd take the opportunity to experiment a little bit and see where they're going to hit the ball, see where they wouldn't hit the ball and that kind of thing," said Matsuzaka. "So the third and fourth [innings], I was definitely experimenting a little bit more."
I find it interesting that Matsuzaka gave up runs and "lost control" during the same innings he decided to experiment. When CAN a pitcher afford to experiment? One would think that Spring Training would be the ideal time... hmm....
- Do I think the O's are a weak, pathetic team? No, that was not the message of my post, nor is it something I believe. I'm a big fan of Mazzone and am eager to see what he can do with the the O's talented rotation. Tejada is an elite SS who I always hoped would end up with the M's after he left the A's. I was truly depressed when the M's were outbid. The O's have some good players, and very passionate fans, and I was sad that some members of their fanbase would be so hypersensitve that they would think discussion of a different team's OWN pitcher as an assault on their own team.
- I certainly did not intend to slander DirtDogs. It's a great webpage, absolutely. End of story.
I'm very disappointed that some people would take my post as slander against their team, which it was not meant to be. My bigger concern is people who do not dig deeper for the truth.
Cheers,
Jeff
by jeffkurashige on Mar 12, 2007 10:23 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
by jeffkurashige on Mar 12, 2007 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Formatting
The problem, I'm pretty sure, was Jeff's list item 2, which had more than one paragraph. The autoformatting feature is seeing paragraph returns (aka "hard returns") between the first and second grafs of item 2 and reverting to body copy style. The same thing happened in item 3. But items 4 and 5 were each only one paragraph long, so they were recognized as list items again.
The way around this is to use line breaks (aka "soft returns" to space out the grafs within an item number. It's klugy, but it works. So, anytime you have more than one paragraph in a list item, instead of hitting return twice, insert a couple HTML line breaks as shown: <br><br>
E.g., typing:
1) Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.
2) Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.
Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur.
3) Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum
results in:
- Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.
- Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.
3) Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum
...(with the latter half of item 2 and and all of item 3 not converted to numbered list format); if you instead type this:
1) Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.
2) Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.<br><br>Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur.
3) Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum
you will get this:
- Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.
- Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.
Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. - Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum
Re: Formatting
by Randy Booth on Mar 13, 2007 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
Hopefully we can end this discussion with this. It summarizes everything pretty well.
by Randy Booth on Mar 12, 2007 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
If Randy doesn't post as much before I do (or even if he does, either way), I certainly welcome your unique perspective on Matsuzaka and of course your knowledge of the Japanese language. Thanks a lot for providing that for us. I hope that this incident won't stop you from doing so in the future if you decide to.
On my own seperate note, I ALWAYS intend to slander BDD.
Anyway, Jeff, thanks a lot for your honest and respectful response to something that got out of hand.
-Allen
by Allen Chace on Mar 12, 2007 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
So with that said, what you've seen and reacted to is some rather enjoyable trash talking on my part. I'm glad it rose such a stink and inflamed as many people's passions over this game as it did. I also hope to be able to see more of Dice-K's "experimentations", as they're being called now,in the very near future.
Go O's!
by jonnypops on Mar 12, 2007 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
I too love the art of talking trash, and I look forward to visiting your blog during the season. I really enjoyed talking trash in person when I visited Camden Yahds last April. Great stadium. Sorry about the team.
Re: Don't smack around OTM
You get used to it. Like those 86 years.
by SC @ Over the Monster on Mar 13, 2007 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
Go O's!
by jonnypops on Mar 13, 2007 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
by Drugs Delaney on Mar 13, 2007 7:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
"And no posers pretending to be Japanese divining the mind of an overpriced Sumo-sized hype machine." -jonnypops, CC, on Monday around 2:00 PM EDT.
"Trust me, we want to address attacks at Sox fans as a group...not you." -jonnypops, on OTM, on Monday around 11:15 PM EDT.
Are these different people? Or one person backtracking when he realized he was in error and insulting someone who clearly has a better knowledge of Japanese than he does? (And who is, in fact, Japanese.)
A "Nation" awaits. Inconsistency is like one of those logical paradoxes on Futurama. ...or something. I'm off to over-hype a player, as all Red Sox fans do. You might be off to pretend the Orioles have a chance. Or to take advantage of stereotypes. Or to contradict yourself. Or to take pride in starting something over nothing. I enjoyed pissing people off in grade school too.
by Allen Chace on Mar 13, 2007 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
The paradox at work here is you guys putting up a front of not caring about your meaningless ST loss to the Orioles, then on the same token actively seeking out criticism on our blog, acting like it's a goddamn dissertation over at MIT to be studied and debated over, rather than the obvious trashtalking it is. Then proceeding to make a federal case out of it like a bunch of crybabies. If you're not in grade school anymore then act like it. Learn to take it...cuz with the moves Theo's been making, it ain't getting any better anytime soon.
See you later, Matsu-suckas!
by jonnypops on Mar 13, 2007 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
Hint: A response to that which I actually posed could help your credibility. You'll recognize that I'm not Randy and he's not me. My problem lies with an initial lack of respect for someone who does know Japanese and then saying you weren't trying to do that. I couldn't give a damn whether you think the Sox finish in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, or all get kicked out of the league for over-hyping someone.
Re: Don't smack around OTM
OK guys I'm done with this blog till at least the next time the O's/Sox meet. It was fun. Curse me to your heart's content till them. See ya!
by jonnypops on Mar 13, 2007 7:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
Can you please tell me what "plop plop" is? Babelfish.com is hardly the greatest interpreter...
Re: Don't smack around OTM
Why is it so unbelievable that a Red Sox fan would speak Japanese? There are lots of schools in Boston after all.
Re: Don't smack around OTM
by SC @ Over the Monster on Mar 13, 2007 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
by Randy Booth on Mar 13, 2007 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: Good Will Hunting
by SC @ Over the Monster on Mar 14, 2007 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
"My own personal knowledge of Japanese consists of only being able to read a fair number of Kanji. I study Chinese and as you know the hanzi/kanji are essentially the same. As far as translations are concerned I work in a corporate setting where a large number of Japanese translations take place for business matters. Often times 2 and 3 translators are employed at once to interpret what one man is saying. The reason, as this has been explained to me by countless interpreters, both Native Japanese and American, is that the Japanese language can be so elusive that more than one mind is often needed to grasp the context of what a particular phrase might mean. This is not to discount the capability of directness within the language or the culture as the whole, merely a reflection of what I have been taught by some of the top language professionals in this country and Japan."
I've actually translated both technical manuals (for convection ovens and industrial welding gear) and scholastic articles (the nature of Japanese economics in the 17-19th c.) before. I also read literary Chinese if that helps. Direct source, instead of secondary here. The vagueness which supposedly appears is not something that is innate to the language. It's very easy to communicate concepts in Japanese.
The problem is instead that some Japanese (especially those in the academic community), for the purpose of being polite, decide not to directly state their argument--it's a stylistic issue instead of a grammatic issue. This is not a problem inherent in the language but instead a cultural goal of avoiding conflict. For example, in the works by the scholars I translate, instead of arguing: "The Japanese Bubble Economy burst in 1989" as we would in English, they'll say, "Evidence shows that that it was likely the bubble Economy began to collapse in 1989". There is a great deal of use of the "passive" voice, which makes things more difficult to follow, and can be perceived as ambiguous. Can this make things vague and difficult for translators? Absolutely. But does this mean the language itself is ambiguous. Not necessarily.
Matsuzaka's interview was not of this sort however. His comments left nothing to the imagination, as I posted in my original translation the DAY BEFORE he pitched. It was unfair to stereotype all comments by Japanese baseball pitchers as vague. It was also disingenous when throwing doubt on the goals of a pitcher. This happens far too often in Seattle media sources, with Ichiro's comments for example. Just because he doesn't give the usual sound-bytes, he is essentially mocked by local reporters as some sort of "zen guru".
These acusations frustrate me as they lean dangerously close to a return to "Orientalism" (for more info. see E. Said's Orientalism) instead of just simple trashtalking. Even if that is not the hopes of the initial author, they strengthen negative stereotypes of other peoples. I'd hoped we'd moved away from that after the 1980's and early 1990's... That's what bothered me in the posts above, not the "trashtalking." Boston has always been accused of being a racist town. Barry Bonds was just one of the latest in a string who voiced this concern (granted, Bonds is a crazy individual, but in this case, he may have mirrored popular opinion). Seeing the recent interest in Matsuzaka and Japanese culture has given me hope that instead, Boston will now permanently shed this label--which I feel now is currently undeserved. In an era when racial tensions are so high thanks to the current war in the Mid East, it's refreshing to see people interested in learning about a new country instead. Some of the comments above, made me fear for that dream however.
Anyway, I think this will be my last post on this subject. For me, while trashtalking can be a fun aspect of the sport, it too often degenerates into personal attacks or stereotypes against other groups, which I had had enough of when I left Wall Street. I come here in my free time to share my love of the sport with others, so that we can all use Baseball as something fun to forget about our own worries in the real world for a little while. I don't think personal attacks are fun for anyone. Instead, I'll keep translating periodically in the hopes that we can all enjoy different media viewpoints on the players who we enjoy watching. Baseball can be a unique vehicle for cultural exchange. I think we'll see that this year, through Matsuzaka. I'd rather people think about baseball when they think about Japan, instead of, say Pearl Harbor and world war two (I saw enough of this as a kid growing up). It's how cultural wounds are finally healed.
Cheers,
Jeff
by jeffkurashige on Mar 13, 2007 12:50 PM EDT reply actions
Re: Don't smack around OTM
Amen brother. Baseball and great food.

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