Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
OTM faithful member Tommy quickly compiled the list of Red Sox players on the Mitchell Report:
Glad to see Jason Varitek and Trot Nixon not listed. I don't think they use steroids, but there were rumors they'd be on the list.
I think something that really needs to be stressed is that even though a player isn't listed, it doesn't mean they're a clean baseball player. I'm sure there are more out there but there wasn't enough evidence to list that person in the report.
After this report, all we can do is prepare for the Baseball Revolution.
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Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
As for me, I am done with Major League Baseball, and yes, that includes the Red Sox.
I'm very sad today.
This whole thing stinks to high heaven.
Don't be like that
There's really nothing new here, it's just a partial list of names, based on the handful of people who were caught. We all knew steroids was rampant, this confirms it.
Really, the only thing I get out of this report is another reason to taunt my Yankee Fan friends.
Hopefully, MLB will follow the recommendations, and institute outside testing. But in the meantime, just think about Johan.
Re: Don't be like that
I heard one reporter mention that in a question being posed to Mitchell.
His response (or lack of one) was very telling ... he looked as though someone had just put a gnarled hickory stick up his arse.
Re: Don't be like that
Re: Don't be like that
Re: Don't be like that
And when Barry Bonds is the big winner, it's a pretty bleak day for baseball.
by LateInningRelief on Dec 14, 2007 7:20 AM EST up reply actions
Re: Don't be like that
BTW, did you hear that Jeter is a cross-dresser? It's true, my friend saw him coming out of a club in the Meat Packing district.
I definitely agree that this report just scratches the surface in terms of past users. I kind of said that above. Though I'd be surprised if it crosses 50%. Think about what they have on Brian Roberts - was fingered by an admitted user (Bigbie). I would think that if he knew about Roberts he'd know about other people in the locker room, but he only fingered him.
Regarding Bonds, I'm actually happy for him. He's been vilified for too long. Yes, he cheated, but so did most everyone else. I'm happy he's not the sole face of the steroids era anymore.
Going forward, I hope they use some serious testing. My fear is that Selig will do something stupid, like issue HOF bans or something (though by my count, the "26 rings" deserves three or four asteriks)(I kid, I kid). Let bygones be bygones, and move on.
Re: Don't be like that
Truth be told, Selig already did something stupid in threatening to take action against those named in the report. The only action he should take is to resign. What a jerk. He stuck his head in the sand for years, and then after public opinion finally forces him to act on steroids, he waves his finger & acts like he shouldn't be held responsible.
This all happened on his watch.
So, yes, let bygones be bygones and move on. After Selig takes the fall.
by LateInningRelief on Dec 14, 2007 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
Selig
Yes and no. I think for "the good of baseball" he should probably step aside. But I think he's actually been a pretty good commish, steroids and tied All-Star games aside. Though, truth be told, he has had nothing to do with many of the positive developments of his tenure, such as the increase accessibility of televised/computerized games, and the internet baseball explosion.
But as far as the steroid issue goes, I don't see how it really could've played out any differently. I read one of the ESPN chats today (Stark or Crasnick maybe?), and he was saying that had Selig really pushed the issue when the player's union contract was up in '98 or '02, there probably would've been a strike, and baseball may not have recovered very well from it's second strike in five or ten years. I believe the quote was something along the lines of "For fans, steroids is secondary issue. The primary issue is whether they are actually playing," or something. By waiting out the issue, he basically allowed public outrage to build enough that the union won't really be able to fight against stringent testing.
Re: Selig
Re: Don't be like that
MLB has already demonstrated that they can affect pitching and hitting results with modifications to the equipment, so there's really no reason to rely on players taking enhancements to boost the game.
The difficult part of a rigorous testing program is what to do about offseason testing. On one hand, these are privileged people who get paid very well to put on a spectacle for common-folk like us and should submit to certain inconveniences. On the other hand, they're human beings too and deserve a modicum of privacy when they're not on the field. I lean towards the latter argument as long as the athletes are tested when playing, including winter leagues. If they're relaxing and just working out during the offseason they should be on their own.
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
All people who play the right way on the field and do not need to cheat. Ill support those guys, yes even A-Rod.
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Slappy Mc"Mine!"? Just because he's not a juicer doesn't mean he doesn't cheat.
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
=) good?
Sorry, call me a sceptic
Have you ever been seriously injured? I had a seperated shoulder once and it took a good 3-4 months to get decent use out it again(motoX accident). Haven't you ever noticed that pros always come back from this type of injury in about 5-6 weeks? It just isn't possible without some chemical help.
The reality is these guys have a very small window of opportunity to be successful in a baseball career. Most of them utilise any means possible to maximise that term of employment.
Besides where are Sosa, MacGwire and Palmiero on the list??
Personally I have no problem with the list, but the reality is that most players have utilised some PED's to gain advantage whether in recovery or for strength or both.
Re: Sorry, call me a sceptic
That said, yeah, steroids can help recovery time. But don't judge them by the fact they recover from injury faster than you do. That's just natural.
Re: Sorry, call me a skeptic
Re: Sorry, call me a sceptic
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
What's worse is that nothing will really be done to stop the problem. Sure, some guys will get suspensions, (a couple of 15-game suspensions were just recently handed out) - but let's face it - that doesn't have much deterrence, given the huge salaries.
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
If you look at the names of the players who got caught, the majority were borderline players looking for an edge or aging players trying to hang on. A few were players like Gagne and Pettitte with bad injury histories.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 13, 2007 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Noone care$ becau$e it'$ all about the dollar$.
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Roid Report will be hardly thought about. Now lets
get Santana. GO RED SOX...
by Bosoxman34 on Dec 13, 2007 5:29 PM EST reply actions
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Some clown on ESPN was actually saying that Bonds and the other cheaters SHOULDN'T have an asterisk next to their records, and that they SHOULDN'T be left out of the HoF.
Baseball is flushing their history right down the toilet with this sick joke.
"Babe Ruth? Who's he?"
"Hank Aaron? Isn't he a car salesman down at the Ford dealership?"
Nice going, Bug. (not a typo - that's just what I think Selig should be called).
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Heh.
Obviously, you've never been to Kansas City, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Denver, Arlington, Atlanta... etc. etc.
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Don't give up baseball, you know you can't live without it.
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/sports/5376995.html
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
IT'S CHEATING.
And no, sorry, "everyone does it" is an excuse you should have left behind in 6th grade.
And speaking of 6th grade, what message do you think this whole mess sends to kids?
"Gotta make the team ! Gotta 'roid up so I can get my starting spot!"
Fact is, 'roids have become the norm in high schools across the country. But the last I checked, they're illicit drugs!
Where do you want this to end?
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
I am done with MLB, as I've stated just above.
But I can and will post here about his topic, thanks only to the hosts of this site.
You can keep watching for my posts all you want. It's your wasted time, so do as you please.
as always the money is the problem
he said, yeah i took this stuff and i would do it again. it helped me to make a lot of money which i can use to secure my family, put my girl on a better school and so on.
and this argumentation is understandable for me BUT ther is still a big problem.
i have guy over here with quite some talent (for a german!).
i remember a HBP from him when he was 15 it has hurt so much. but i could not say anything cause i always told him he has to throw inside without fear of hitting somebody. i remember standing at first in pain and getting angry because i could not say anything :)
whatever he is 18 now (almost) and made some progress. he is a good SS and a good pitcher so he has some tools.
his dream is (like for all of the young ones) one day to get a chance in the bigs.
he came a few weeks to me and asked me to help him for training in the winter. we talked and everything was fine (i know that his chances are near to nothing but hey, at least he has dreams and is willing to work for that).
suddenly he came up with another guy he is training with and that he thinks about taking steroids and hormones (hes tall but still a littlebit skinny).
I WAS SHOCKED! i talked with him about all the problems (from being an urpirght human to the healthproblems) but i could see on his reactions that he did not really listen to me. i guess he will go his way.
i said to him if you do not make it without you most probably won't make it with it (that is a lie but he most probably won't make it anyway) and more important you do not deserve to make it then.
but how weak this argumentation is if he knows he will hit more homeruns or can pitch more innings and THAT will definitely help him on his way.
and others do it to already at a young age.
so if this helps him to come closer to his dream he will do it (because it is common and he knows others he is playing against for the spots take it too).
he may never go to the bigs but is willing to take any risk to try to get there.
(at least he still makes his apprenticeship and does not sacrifice his vocationally future.)
my "personal" experience with that topic is more funny:
we have the "olympique" (or wada?) doping rules in baseball in germany.
i remember some years (4 or 5) ago when my team made it to the 3rd league we discussed the testing programm which was introduced then (it was ruled for the 3rd league and higher).
not because we old men had problems with steroids but half of the team was smoking pot and that was on the list too (and everybody knew that about us).
it was so funny, some tried to stop doing it during the season, others just did not care and in the end there were no controls at all (because it was too expensive and it is an amateur sport anyway in germany).
i even went down to paly in oue 2nd team because i was so afraid i got caught and the team will be fined for it (the money fines were ridiculously high for us) :)
Re: Caminiti
he spoke pretty open about doping in baseball before that.
somehow the loink to the aritcle i mean is not working anymore???
it was in the articlel "Caminit Comes Clean" (2002) from SI.
but you can have a look here (strange source) if interested:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/report-steroids-baseball-check-sh-t-out- 156054.html
hmm?
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
I think for most of us(well maybe just me), it confirms what I already knew...that most professional athletes utilise PEDs.
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
And that's what's really burning my toast on this.
The investigation itself is a joke, and the little show they put on today underscores that.
I see now that some sportswriter named Vito Forlenza (I've never heard of this character, maybe some of you guys have) is whining about 'why no Red Sox?' on the list.
That's the trouble with MLB investigating themselves, led by the incomparably incompetent Bug Selig.
Canseco Barred ....
He's right on that bit. It is laughable. But not in a humorous way.
http://www6.comcast.net/sports/articles/mlb/2007/12/14/Mitchell.Report-Canseco/
The straight dope
In the past few decades, baseball was played, and heroes were made. If you care about this wonderful sport, that must be your focus. Otherwise, pragmatically, what are you left with?
I hate cheaters as much as anyone, and every instinct in me is to vilify and ban the dopers*, but there is no retrospective way to nail all those who have taken PEDs. The big stumbling block is that it's not just two or three big names who juiced: there are probably hundreds who have taken PEDs over the years, some real beefcakes who wielded a mighty stick included.
The important thing now is to keep use of PEDs to an absolute minimum, and to make baseball today as clean as possible.
* Apart from David Justice. He got Halle Berry, after all. Free pass, that man.
Re: The straight dope
Re: The straight dope
Re: The straight dope
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
I hope you're speaking for yourself on this matter.
I, for one, will not watch or listen to another MLB game.
There are far better things I can do with my time, than to watch a drug-induced bunch of players get rewarded for cheating. (and yes, Virginia, there are BUNCHES of players taking PED's, regardless of the Toothless Mitchell Report).
To repeat: I am done with MLB.
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
by gosox on Dec 14, 2007 3:42 PM EST reply actions
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
I can't remember who did it, but one ex-player did a study where he estimated that steriods would have added x amount of feet to his pop flies, and with that assumption calculated how many of his pop flies would have carried further and become HRs, and it turned out to be like an extra 100 HRs over his career
Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Bonds
I hate the guy. And it's not cuz he's black (like he likes to claim), it's cuz he's a jerk, a self-centered dick. Yes, I might make a bigger deal that he took steriods then others who did, but that is because he broke records because of steriods, while others didn't. Now that Clemen's is marked as a steriods user it validifies my stance, cuz I will make just as big a deal about him using it as Bonds cuz he broke records using it also.
Steriods, "Everyone is Doing it, and You would To"
This whole "lets be real, you would do it also if there was a drug that got you more money in your job" is BS. I'm sure there are people out there that this holds true to, but here's a perfect comparison: In my job I could be unethical, lie, sell co-workers under the bus, take credit for others work, cut corners, etc. and I would unquestionably get ahead quicker and would make more money. I don't do it (as many people won't either, even if there are some that do) because it is wrong. So no, no I would not do it also if I was in baseball.
In fact, here is a perfect example. I worked at an autoshop to pay my way through college, another "everyone is doing it" situation where many mechanics are dishonest, and yes they make more money, but I never was dishonest. And I had plenty opportunities where I could have made myself an instant extra couple hundred where teh customer wouldn't have even complained (i.e. someone brought in their car saying they thought they needed their shocks replaced, it turned out all it needed was a little grease, I could have easily said "Yup, you need them replace" and the customer would have never complained), but I never did. Almost every job has ways of cheating and being unethical to make more money, but the fact is that most people don't do it.
Clemens "I'm Innocent"
His attoney's arguement (that some seem to agree with) is that the allegations come from a "troubled man threatened with federal criminal prosecution" and so they can't be trusted leaves out some key points. First, he had actual checks and shipping labels for some of those accused which is pretty damning evidence. He also was threatened with jail time if he included any false information. So why would he go out of his way to falsely include names, when he already had names that were in fact true? He was just as much threatened to not include inaccurate names. Also, Mitchell gave Clemens the chance to rebuttle and he denied, if he was innocent why didn't he speak up when he had the chance? Why did he wait to see if his name would actually be included?
Realistic is not good at cheating
=)
Re: Realistic is not good at cheating
damn...
right now i will loose my beloved car because it would cost about 1000 euro to get it right (says the mechanic). and i do not have a clue about cars : (
but your point is good.
the difference is the amount of money which is involved.
so much money, so much greed.
The HOF is like a drivers license
I remember one of the key parts of the test was being able understand the concept that driving was a privilege.
It's not enough to be a US citizen, be 16 years of age, own a car and insure it, and know how to safely opperate the vehicle...
Driving is a privilege and NOT a right.
The State always maintains the ability to revoke your privilege to drive.
So what if it's the same in the Bigs???
Just because a player hit a huge number of home runs, does that alone mean he deserves to be in the HOF?
In my opinion no. A player needs to treat himself, the game, and other players with respect and follow the rules of the road.
Drinking is to driving, as steroids is to baseball.
The problem today is that the Mitchell report is not a DWI conviction, it more like getting cought by your mom with a few empties in the car

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