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Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report

OTM faithful member Tommy quickly compiled the list of Red Sox players on the Mitchell Report:

Former Sox on there include [Eric] Gagne, [Mo] Vaughn, [Roger] Clemens, Mike Stanton, Mike Lansing, Manny Alexander, Jose Manzanillo, Jeremy Giambi, [Brendan] Donnelly, Kent Mercker, Chris Donnels.

Glad to see Jason Varitek and Trot Nixon not listed. I don't think they use steroids, but there were rumors they'd be on the list.

I think something that really needs to be stressed is that even though a player isn't listed, it doesn't mean they're a clean baseball player. I'm sure there are more out there but there wasn't enough evidence to list that person in the report.

After this report, all we can do is prepare for the Baseball Revolution.

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Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Personally, I don't see a 'Baseball Revolution', as you call it.

As for me, I am done with Major League Baseball, and yes, that includes the Red Sox.

I'm very sad today.

This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

BC14

by BC14 on Dec 13, 2007 3:14 PM EST reply actions  

Don't be like that
Baseball loves you. Don't leave.

There's really nothing new here, it's just a partial list of names, based on the handful of people who were caught. We all knew steroids was rampant, this confirms it.

Really, the only thing I get out of this report is another reason to taunt my Yankee Fan friends.

Hopefully, MLB will follow the recommendations, and institute outside testing. But in the meantime, just think about Johan.

Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Dec 13, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Don't be like that
"Really nothing new here..."

I heard one reporter mention that in a question being posed to Mitchell.

His response (or lack of one) was very telling ... he looked as though someone had just put a gnarled hickory stick up his arse.

BC14

by BC14 on Dec 13, 2007 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Don't be like that
As world champions, there's no reason to taunt yankee fans.  Lets take the high road.  We had the best team in 2007.  They have a few former and current players who use steroids.  The facts speak for themselves.  No need to lower ourselves to their level.

by Schulz on Dec 13, 2007 7:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Don't be like that
In principle, I agree with the moral highroad. In practice, my Yankee fan friends and I talk a lot of sh*t.
Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Dec 13, 2007 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Don't be like that
Dunno, Tommy. There were two main sources in this report, the Mets clubhouse attendant and Roger Clemens' trainer. I gotta believe that those who haven't used steroids is a much shorter list than those who have. Not much of a day to crow about anything baseball-related. The big winners here are Barry Bonds, who clearly was only one of a whole LOT of roiders, and Jason Giambi, who was the only active player to fess up.

And when Barry Bonds is the big winner, it's a pretty bleak day for baseball.

Yankee Ombudsman

by LateInningRelief on Dec 14, 2007 7:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Don't be like that
Hey, as I said above, my Yankee fan friends and I talk a lot of smack. Most of it is far less grounded in reality than the Mitchell report but it's all in good fun.

BTW, did you hear that Jeter is a cross-dresser? It's true, my friend saw him coming out of a club in the Meat Packing district.

I definitely agree that this report just scratches the surface in terms of past users. I kind of said that above. Though I'd be surprised if it crosses 50%. Think about what they have on Brian Roberts - was fingered by an admitted user (Bigbie). I would think that if he knew about Roberts he'd know about other people in the locker room, but he only fingered him.

Regarding Bonds, I'm actually happy for him. He's been vilified for too long. Yes, he cheated, but so did most everyone else. I'm happy he's not the sole face of the steroids era anymore.

Going forward, I hope they use some serious testing. My fear is that Selig will do something stupid, like issue HOF bans or something (though by my count, the "26 rings" deserves three or four asteriks)(I kid, I kid). Let bygones be bygones, and move on.

Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Dec 14, 2007 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Don't be like that
Actually, I knew that about Jeter. Even worse, he and Clay Buccholz have a weird Rockettes routine worked out. Not something for the kids.

Truth be told, Selig already did something stupid in threatening to take action against those named in the report. The only action he should take is to resign. What a jerk. He stuck his head in the sand for years, and then after public opinion finally forces him to act on steroids, he waves his finger & acts like he shouldn't be held responsible.

This all happened on his watch.

So, yes, let bygones be bygones and move on. After Selig takes the fall.

Yankee Ombudsman

by LateInningRelief on Dec 14, 2007 5:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Selig
"The only action he should take is to resign."

Yes and no. I think for "the good of baseball" he should probably step aside. But I think he's actually been a pretty good commish, steroids and tied All-Star games aside. Though, truth be told, he has had nothing to do with many of the positive developments of his tenure, such as the increase accessibility of televised/computerized games, and the internet baseball explosion.

But as far as the steroid issue goes, I don't see how it really could've played out any differently. I read one of the ESPN chats today (Stark or Crasnick maybe?), and he was saying that had Selig really pushed the issue when the player's union contract was up in '98 or '02, there probably would've been a strike, and baseball may not have recovered very well from it's second strike in five or ten years. I believe the quote was something along the lines of "For fans, steroids is secondary issue. The primary issue is whether they are actually playing," or something. By waiting out the issue, he basically allowed public outrage to build enough that the union won't really be able to fight against stringent testing.

Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Dec 14, 2007 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Selig
Selig is very good at marketing and politicking. He is not the biggest idealist baseball has seen, but things haven't gone to the dogs on his watch either. I think he has a very good sense of the necessary give & take while keeping a steady course.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on Dec 14, 2007 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Don't be like that
I want an independent Olympic- or Tour du France-styled testing program. The great part about the Mitchell Report is that all parties can move forward without accepting even partial responsibility. It's a political out. They can claim that they just want to see the game's integrity restored. Hopefully, that's the case.

MLB has already demonstrated that they can affect pitching and hitting results with modifications to the equipment, so there's really no reason to rely on players taking enhancements to boost the game.

The difficult part of a rigorous testing program is what to do about offseason testing. On one hand, these are privileged people who get paid very well to put on a spectacle for common-folk like us and should submit to certain inconveniences. On the other hand, they're human beings too and deserve a modicum of privacy when they're not on the field. I lean towards the latter argument as long as the athletes are tested when playing, including winter leagues. If they're relaxing and just working out during the offseason they should be on their own.

"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on Dec 14, 2007 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
This is just another in a long list of black eyes for baseball.  Like the US, baseball will recover.  Many people have been in your position in baseball history with integration not happening until 1947, the 1919 Black Sox Scandal, free agency, strikes.  Baseball will come back, I just tend to focus on the positives...Manny and Papi, Mike Lowell.  Pedro and Schill(who I personally despise), Jeter, A-Rod, Vladdy, Randy Johnson, Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz.

All people who play the right way on the field and do not need to cheat.  Ill support those guys, yes even A-Rod.

by SoxAcumen on Dec 13, 2007 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
"do not need to cheat... yes even A-Rod."

Slappy Mc"Mine!"? Just because he's not a juicer doesn't mean he doesn't cheat.

Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Dec 13, 2007 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Ok, I will applaud his lack of not using Steroids and being a masher at the plate.  He is still a money grubbing ho...

=) good?

by SoxAcumen on Dec 13, 2007 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Better.
:P
Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Dec 13, 2007 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, call me a sceptic
The report simply names people who were fingered by other blokes.  You are very naive in thinking that this list is anywhere near complete.  Most(90% or more) resort to PED's not to bulk up, but to speed up recovery time from injuries.

Have you ever been seriously injured?  I had a seperated shoulder once and it took a good 3-4 months to get decent use out it again(motoX accident).  Haven't you ever noticed that pros always come back from this type of injury in about 5-6 weeks?  It just isn't possible without some chemical help.

The reality is these guys have a very small window of opportunity to be successful in a baseball career.  Most of them utilise any means possible to maximise that term of employment.

Besides where are Sosa, MacGwire and Palmiero on the list??

Personally I have no problem with the list, but the reality is that most players have utilised some PED's to gain advantage whether in recovery or for strength or both.

by sydneysox on Dec 13, 2007 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Sorry, call me a sceptic
Recovery time depends on a lot of factors, including severity of injury, general conditioning, and treatment. If you have exactly the same injury as one of these guys in terms of severity, they're going to recover a hell of a lot faster than you will because they're in far better shape than you are and because they're getting the kind of top-of-the-line treatment your health plan just doesn't provide because it's simply not necessary unless you're paid a million dollars a month to play a game.

That said, yeah, steroids can help recovery time. But don't judge them by the fact they recover from injury faster than you do. That's just natural.

by RSNexile on Dec 13, 2007 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Sorry, call me a skeptic
Also, it becomes these guys job to work on healing and rehabbing the injury. When you get hurt you still have to go to work 8+ hrs a day and then maybe you do physical therapy or some other treatment a few times a week. It's not surprising that athletes get better faster.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on Dec 14, 2007 9:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Sorry, call me a sceptic
McGwire and Palmiero were both on the list.  Sosa, surprisingly, was not.

by Schulz on Dec 13, 2007 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
It's my opinion that much-hyped "list" isnt' even the tip of the iceberg as to what's really going on in the MLB.

What's worse is that nothing will really be done to stop the problem.  Sure, some guys will get suspensions, (a couple of 15-game suspensions were just recently handed out) - but let's face it - that doesn't have much deterrence, given the huge salaries.

BC14

by BC14 on Dec 13, 2007 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
My guess, there's much more steroid use in the NFL--and no one cares.  All this hand-wringing and head-shaking is because MLB is all about records.    

If you look at the names of the players who got caught, the majority were borderline players looking for an edge or aging players trying to hang on.  A few were players like Gagne and Pettitte with bad injury histories.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Dec 13, 2007 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Right on.
Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Dec 13, 2007 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
You're right about the NFL, especially that "noone cares".

Noone care$ becau$e it'$ all about the dollar$.

BC14

by BC14 on Dec 13, 2007 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I only skimmed the report
I might've missed a couple.
Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Dec 13, 2007 3:34 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
This up-coming Baseball Season when all the Baseball Parks are full to the rim with fans this
Roid Report will be hardly thought about. Now lets
get Santana. GO RED SOX...

by Bosoxman34 on Dec 13, 2007 5:29 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Yep, and that's the saddest part about this nonsense.

Some clown on ESPN was actually saying that Bonds and the other cheaters SHOULDN'T have an asterisk next to their records, and that they SHOULDN'T be left out of the HoF.

Baseball is flushing their history right down the toilet with this sick joke.

"Babe Ruth? Who's he?"  

"Hank Aaron?  Isn't he a car salesman down at the Ford dealership?"

Nice going, Bug.  (not a typo - that's just what I think Selig should be called).  

BC14

by BC14 on Dec 13, 2007 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
"when all the baseball parks are full..."

Heh.

Obviously, you've never been to Kansas City, Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Denver, Arlington, Atlanta... etc. etc.

BC14

by BC14 on Dec 13, 2007 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Man, that's quite a document... in size/length and power.

Don't give up baseball, you know you can't live without it.

"SK: Hey, imagine what Steinbrenner's statue'll be doing. SO: Cast in bronze with his wallet out."

by mmmsox on Dec 13, 2007 6:17 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
everyone was doing it and to me that is a level playing field. too many teams and the divide between the haves and have nots is more to blame for the big numbers than the roids. I played at Seton Hall with Valentin, Biggio and Vaughn and 80% of the team, including them, were taking it back then. so I say since the 80's MLB has been juiced. and the 5-10% in MLB that did not take were either A) worried it would affect thier mechanics B) health concerns C) vanity issues or a select few on principal. however, how did these people keep quite so long? I am not passing judgement, because 90% of us would take a drug if it had the promise of big pay day and logevity in our carreers. Do you really think Dykstra cares if we look down on him? He had no buisiness being in the bigs but he found the way and made millions. He is set for life and I can't blame him. all you wannabe's get on your soap box but if you had any talent you would have enhanced it too. everyone knew, did'nt care and now we act like we do. great, now we have something to hate clemens for, how pathetic, if he stayed or came back we would all be giving him a pass. this all makes me sick. cant wait for the season to start so this will all be gone.
the difference between a yankee stadium hot dog and a fenway frank is that they dont sell yankee dogs in november anymore.

by fishfarmr on Dec 13, 2007 7:37 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
So what part of "against the rules" did you not understand?

IT'S CHEATING.

And no, sorry, "everyone does it" is an excuse you should have left behind in 6th grade.

And speaking of 6th grade, what message do you think this whole mess sends to kids?

"Gotta make the team !  Gotta 'roid up so I can get my starting spot!"

Fact is, 'roids have become the norm in high schools across the country. But the last I checked, they're illicit drugs!  

Where do you want this to end?

BC14

by BC14 on Dec 13, 2007 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
I agree, but the fact is they did cash in and the lesson is cheat, lie to get ahead. This is what is taught in our school sytems. hey lets give "Illegal"Immigrants drivers liscenses and have our government officials say screw the law. So you see, it is a society problem and a lack of a moral center. so I say dont support baseball and walk away, that is how to do your part. oh, but I guess since everyone else wont you might as well stay. sounds to me like you may want to get off the soap box and get into your fenway seat.
the difference between a yankee stadium hot dog and a fenway frank is that they dont sell yankee dogs in november anymore.

by fishfarmr on Dec 13, 2007 7:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
If only that fenway seat didn't cost $60 ($26 for bleachers)

by Schulz on Dec 13, 2007 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Well, you clearly haven't read my other posts in the 'Mitchell Report' thread.
BC14

by BC14 on Dec 13, 2007 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
I have and you are still here, so I guess you are not done with it. And you will watch and you will be posting next year so please.....
the difference between a yankee stadium hot dog and a fenway frank is that they dont sell yankee dogs in november anymore.

by fishfarmr on Dec 14, 2007 7:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
I neither need nor seek your permission to post my opinions on this site.

I am done with MLB, as I've stated just above.

But I can and will post here about his topic, thanks only to the hosts of this site.

You can keep watching for my posts all you want.  It's your wasted time, so do as you please.

BC14

by BC14 on Dec 14, 2007 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

as always the money is the problem
Caminiti talks pretty offensiv about this.
he said, yeah i took this stuff and i would do it again. it helped me to make a lot of money which i can use to secure my family, put my girl on a better school and so on.

and this argumentation is understandable for me BUT ther is still a big problem.

i have guy over here with quite some talent (for a german!).
i remember a HBP from him when he was 15 it has hurt so much. but i could not say anything cause i always told him he has to throw inside without fear of hitting somebody. i remember standing at first in pain and getting angry because i could not say anything :)

whatever he is 18 now (almost) and made some progress. he is a good SS and a good pitcher so he has some tools.
his dream is (like for all of the young ones) one day to get a chance in the bigs.
he came a few weeks to me and asked me to help him for training in the winter. we talked and everything was fine (i know that his chances are near to nothing but hey, at least he has dreams and is willing to work for that).

suddenly he came up with another guy he is training with and that he thinks about taking steroids and hormones (hes tall but still a littlebit skinny).

I WAS SHOCKED! i talked with him about all the problems (from being an urpirght human to the healthproblems) but i could see on his reactions that he did not really listen to me. i guess he will go his way.

i said to him if you do not make it without you most probably won't make it with it (that is a lie but he most probably won't make it anyway) and more important you do not deserve to make it then.

but how weak this argumentation is if he knows he will hit more homeruns or can pitch more innings and THAT will definitely help him on his way.

and others do it to already at a young age.

so if this helps him to come closer to his dream he will do it (because it is common and he knows others he is playing against for the spots take it too).

he may never go to the bigs but is willing to take any risk to try to get there.
(at least he still makes his apprenticeship and does not sacrifice his vocationally future.)

my "personal" experience with that topic is more funny:
we have the "olympique" (or wada?) doping rules in baseball in germany.

i remember some years (4 or 5) ago when my team made it to the 3rd league we discussed the testing programm which was introduced then (it was ruled for the 3rd league and higher).

not because we old men had problems with steroids but half of the team was smoking pot and that was on the list too (and everybody knew that about us).
it was so funny, some tried to stop doing it during the season, others just did not care and in the end there were no controls at all (because it was too expensive and it is an amateur sport anyway in germany).
i even went down to paly in oue 2nd team because i was so afraid i got caught and the team will be fined for it (the money fines were ridiculously high for us) :)

by OilCanBoyd on Dec 14, 2007 6:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Caminiti
Isn't Caminiti dead?
Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Dec 14, 2007 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Caminiti
yes, he died 2004.

he spoke pretty open about doping in baseball before that.

somehow the loink to the aritcle i mean is not working anymore???

it was in the articlel "Caminit Comes Clean" (2002) from SI.

but you can have a look here (strange source) if interested:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/steroids-discussion-forum/report-steroids-baseball-check-sh-t-out- 156054.html

hmm?

by OilCanBoyd on Dec 14, 2007 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
No BC, "the everyone does it arguement" does not pass muster for anyone with some moral fortitude, which you obviously have.

I think for most of us(well maybe just me), it confirms what I already knew...that most professional athletes utilise PEDs.

by sydneysox on Dec 13, 2007 10:45 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Agreed, Syd.

And that's what's really burning my toast on this.

The investigation itself is a joke, and the little show they put on today underscores that.

I see now that some sportswriter named Vito Forlenza (I've never heard of this character, maybe some of you guys have) is whining about 'why no Red Sox?' on the list.

That's the trouble with MLB investigating themselves, led by the incomparably incompetent Bug Selig.

BC14

by BC14 on Dec 13, 2007 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Canseco Barred ....
Laughable, he calls it.

He's right on that bit.  It is laughable.  But not in a humorous way.

http://www6.comcast.net/sports/articles/mlb/2007/12/14/Mitchell.Report-Canseco/

BC14

by BC14 on Dec 13, 2007 11:02 PM EST reply actions  

Wondering about...
... Bart Giamatti, and how many times he's rolled over in his grave.
BC14

by BC14 on Dec 13, 2007 11:04 PM EST reply actions  

The straight dope
There is literally no alternative but to draw a line under the steroid era, leave the records as they are, and move on. (And cheer for A-Rod to break the homerun record, eh?)

In the past few decades, baseball was played, and heroes were made. If you care about this wonderful sport, that must be your focus. Otherwise, pragmatically, what are you left with?

I hate cheaters as much as anyone, and every instinct in me is to vilify and ban the dopers*, but there is no retrospective way to nail all those who have taken PEDs. The big stumbling block is that it's not just two or three big names who juiced: there are probably hundreds who have taken PEDs over the years, some real beefcakes who wielded a mighty stick included.

The important thing now is to keep use of PEDs to an absolute minimum, and to make baseball today as clean as possible.

* Apart from David Justice. He got Halle Berry, after all. Free pass, that man.

Bottom 9th B:1 S:0 O:0 With Bill Mueller batting, Dave Roberts steals (1) 2nd base.

by britsoxfan on Dec 14, 2007 3:38 AM EST reply actions  

Re: The straight dope
Er, not free pass. Just read about allegations of spousal abuse. I'll move on...
Bottom 9th B:1 S:0 O:0 With Bill Mueller batting, Dave Roberts steals (1) 2nd base.

by britsoxfan on Dec 14, 2007 7:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: The straight dope
We had the dead ball era which favored pitchers records greatly, now we have the steriod era. Just like we can't compare pitching records from that era to others, we can't compare modern records....oh well, me move on (obviously it's not a perfect comparison as deadball era didn't occur due to a scandal, but you get the idea)

by Realistic on Dec 14, 2007 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: The straight dope
It's a very sound comparison, in my opinion.
Bottom 9th B:1 S:0 O:0 With Bill Mueller batting, Dave Roberts steals (1) 2nd base.

by britsoxfan on Dec 15, 2007 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
We all hate the cheaters but we we are all going to go back. The only way you can stop the cheating is to have MLB grow a pair. If they said that full drug testing, urine, blood, lie detectors etc.. is required and if you dont like it go play in someone elses league. the players union would fight but if you are serious they will cave. The alleged majority that has not taken ( yeah right) would cross over because they have no worries and the rest would get clean or sit out and not get paid. This wont happen because the fans all complain but still show up, so why would MLB want to take such a hard line? congress you say? they have their own problems with what is right to stick thier necks out now. to me , the owners could do it, because after all they have the cash. but again if they did and a holdout happens and they try to start over with new talent it will be like a marlins team with no one showing up. Again it is our faults as fans/consumers that this flourishes. BC said everyone else is doing it is a weak excuse for taking steroids, it is also a weak excuse for why we wont walk away from MLB. no one else is so I am not, and yes I am weak. But to you high and mighty, turn your back on MLB and go watch H.S. baseball if it is the game you love.But it your team you love and your players, and if one is cheating, you will forgive them although there will be none for the enemy players. All this still translates into cash for the league and nothing is going to change. wish I was wrong but lets be real.
the difference between a yankee stadium hot dog and a fenway frank is that they dont sell yankee dogs in november anymore.

by fishfarmr on Dec 14, 2007 7:55 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
"BC said everyone else is doing it is a weak excuse for taking steroids, it is also a weak excuse for why we wont walk away from MLB. no one else is so I am not, and yes I am weak."

I hope you're speaking for yourself on this matter.

I, for one, will not watch or listen to another MLB game.

There are far better things I can do with my time, than to watch a drug-induced bunch of players get rewarded for cheating. (and yes, Virginia, there are BUNCHES of players taking PED's, regardless of the Toothless Mitchell Report).

To repeat:  I am done with MLB.

BC14

by BC14 on Dec 14, 2007 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
I hate Bonds not becasue he took steroids but because of the type of team player he is, and even as much as I hate him,I admire him for the record.  I have to wonder how many HR he would have legitimately hit even in a non-steroid era.  He is one of the best contact hitters I have ever wathced.  How much did steroids help him make contact.  No doubt roids helped him; the question in my mind is how much?  If the recipe for hitting 600 HRs is daily roids, then thousands of guys would have done it.  I think you mark this era as the rod era and move on.  Absolutely no mercy for future violators.  This whole mess makes me even more admire Ripken.  What a stud that man was!

by gosox on Dec 14, 2007 3:42 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Oh there is no doubt he was a naturally gifted player. Obviously you can't just take steriods and BAM you're a great player. In my mind his BA, OBP, SBs, etc. were him being naturally gifted (for the most part), it's his HR totals that I would question their validity (Bonds is quoted as saying "Come on, steroids doesn't help you hit a 90 mph fastball" (not exact wording), true, but it does turn some of those hits that would be pop flys into HRs....a huge  difference).

I can't remember who did it, but one ex-player did a study where he estimated that steriods would have added x amount of feet to his pop flies, and with that assumption calculated how many of his pop flies would have carried further and become HRs, and it turned out to be like an extra 100 HRs over his career

by Realistic on Dec 14, 2007 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Red Sox listed in the Mitchell Report
Brief moment for my 2 cents:

Bonds

I hate the guy. And it's not cuz he's black (like he likes to claim), it's cuz he's a jerk, a self-centered dick. Yes, I might make a bigger deal that he took steriods then others who did, but that is because he broke records because of steriods, while others didn't. Now that Clemen's is marked as a steriods user it validifies my stance, cuz I will make just as big a deal about him using it as Bonds cuz he broke records using it also.

Steriods, "Everyone is Doing it, and You would To"

This whole "lets be real, you would do it also if there was a drug that got you more money in your job" is BS. I'm sure there are people out there that this holds true to, but here's a perfect comparison: In my job I could be unethical, lie, sell co-workers under the bus, take credit for others work, cut corners, etc. and I would unquestionably get ahead quicker and would make more money. I don't do it (as many people won't either, even if there are some that do) because it is wrong. So no, no I would not do it also if I was in baseball.

In fact, here is a perfect example. I worked at an autoshop to pay my way through college, another "everyone is doing it" situation where many mechanics are dishonest, and yes they make more money, but I never was dishonest. And I had plenty opportunities where I could have made myself an instant extra couple hundred where teh customer wouldn't have even complained (i.e. someone brought in their car saying they thought they needed their shocks replaced, it turned out all it needed was a little grease, I could have easily said "Yup, you need them replace" and the customer would have never complained), but I never did. Almost every job has ways of cheating and being unethical to make more money, but the fact is that most people don't do it.

Clemens "I'm Innocent"

His attoney's arguement (that some seem to agree with) is that the allegations come from a "troubled man threatened with federal criminal prosecution" and so they can't be trusted leaves out some key points. First, he had actual checks and shipping labels for some of those accused which is pretty damning evidence. He also was threatened with jail time if he included any false information. So why would he go out of his way to falsely include names, when he already had names that were in fact true? He was just as much threatened to not include inaccurate names. Also, Mitchell gave Clemens the chance to rebuttle and he denied, if he was innocent why didn't he speak up when he had the chance? Why did he wait to see if his name would actually be included?

by Realistic on Dec 14, 2007 4:57 PM EST reply actions  

Realistic is not good at cheating
It's "throw" people under the bus, not "sell".

=)

Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Dec 14, 2007 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

damn...
... i am one of those people who never finds a guy like you when i bring my car to the service.

right now i will loose my beloved car because it would cost about 1000 euro to get it right (says the mechanic). and i do not have a clue about cars : (

but your point is good.
the difference is the amount of money which is involved.

so much money, so much greed.

by OilCanBoyd on Dec 14, 2007 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

The HOF is like a drivers license
What if we think back to when we were 16 and trying to attain our very first drivers license...

I remember one of the key parts of the test was being able understand the concept that driving was a privilege.

It's not enough to be a US citizen, be 16 years of age, own a car and insure it, and know how to safely opperate the vehicle...

Driving is a privilege and NOT a right.
The State always maintains the ability to revoke your privilege to drive.

So what if it's the same in the Bigs???

Just because a player hit a huge number of home runs, does that alone mean he deserves to be in the HOF?

In my opinion no.  A player needs to treat himself, the game, and other players with respect and follow the rules of the road.

Drinking is to driving, as steroids is to baseball.

The problem today is that the Mitchell report is not a DWI conviction, it more like getting cought by your mom with a few empties in the car

xxCRACKxx flies the ball into the cool October night...

by mpieretti on Dec 18, 2007 12:52 PM EST reply actions  

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