Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Those four are a lot to give up, but I'd do it in a heartbeat. We'd be trimming towards the bottom of the tree for some serious growth at the top, so to speak.

Geez, does that make any freakin' sense at all? :P

by Hughie Jennings on Nov 29, 2007 4:08 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

No it doesn't, but I would love the trade!

by AZredsoxfan on Nov 29, 2007 4:30 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Hmmm, we'd be giving up 2 of our top 5 prospects, plus Lester (not a top of the rotation pitcher, made more expendable by us acquiring Santana) and Crisp (who lost his starting CF spot), for possibly the best pitcher in the game, healthy and in his prime.

Talentwise, this seems like a no-brainer. All that's at issue is whether the extension would be workable.

by argo0 on Nov 29, 2007 4:29 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

if we are able to sign Santana to an extension, I think I would do that deal in a heartbeat. Pretty much to echo what Randy already said, Coco I assumed was already out the door, Jed I assumed was going to be traded sooner or later as there is no place for him on our team in the next couple years. I love Lester, but as much as potential he seems to have, I don't think he will be an ace, especially if he never gets his control under....well under control. Bowden or Masterson both have potential of being great, but I think the key word is "potential", they have yet to prove they can hold in on the big stage and they very well could bottom out (it happens all the time...just consider that our very own Snyder was once considered a top prospect).

So we would be trading two expendibles (who don't really have a place on the team anyways) and two unproven SPs, for a proven ace and argueably one of the best....I say you have to do it (given that it's for more then one year...and some might say "why not just wait one year then and sign him as a FA?", well, what if the Yanks DO trade for him and then give him an extension....so much for that idea)

by Realistic on Nov 29, 2007 4:36 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

I think I actually felt some drool roll down my chin.

SP:
Beckett
Santana
Dice-K
Schilling
Wake
Buccholz (for when one of our old guys inevitable goes on the DL)

Lineup:
Jacoby
Dustin
Papi
Manny
Lowell
Drew
Youks
'Tek
Lugo

and with Paps closing out the games, who could stop us?
No one, that's who.

by Schulz on Nov 29, 2007 4:36 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Wow. A rotation of Beckett, Santana, Dice-K, Schilling, and Wakefield would be enough to dominate anyone on its own, but with Buccholz as well? No one will want to play us!

Plus, that lineup is pretty scary. Four out of the 5 players at the top are pretty much guaranteed to hit over .300, with Manny being able to hit really well anyway. Then you have Drew, who I really think will have a better year this year; Youk, who is just awesome; 'Tek, whose knees seem to be made of iron; and Lugo, who... well, maybe he'll do better this year too.

And the lineup goes lefty, righty, lefty, righty, righty, lefty, righty, switch, righty. That'll be fun...

by Liza on Nov 29, 2007 5:08 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

And you can pretty much bet Buch will replace Wake or Schill by the all-star break -- one of them is going to end up on the DL by then.

by RSNexile on Nov 30, 2007 2:04 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

I don't see it waiting until the break... I'm a fan now for Schilling in the pen and Buchholz in the rotation from day one...

The Red Head

by the red head on Nov 30, 2007 10:34 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

P.S.
At the very least, the Yankees will get word of this deal and be forced to up their offer big time

by Schulz on Nov 29, 2007 4:38 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

I think the Yankees can give a better deal if they offer Cano and Hughes, than Hughes and Cabrera. I see the biggest hurdle for the Red Sox is actually agreeing to contract extension for more than five years.

This is a good deal for the Sox, even if Santana continues with his numbers as he did in 2007.

by superferret on Nov 29, 2007 4:46 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

santana is going to be 29 next season...who(that can afford it) is afraid of giving him 6 years?

by spinz on Nov 30, 2007 12:37 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Dear Theo,

Make this deal now. Before the Yankees get a chance to offer more.

Thanks

by cblesz on Nov 29, 2007 4:58 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Over/under: How long till the deal gets done (if it does)?

"Why not us?"

by reversecursing on Nov 29, 2007 5:24 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Rotoworld is great, isn't it?

The news today is that the Sox are in the lead for Santana.

The news yesterday was that the Yankees had the lead.

Anybody else think that the Twins are doing a pretty darn good job, so far, in building up interest? Let's see how good this new GM of theirs is.

by Hughie Jennings on Nov 29, 2007 5:26 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

I can't wait to get MLB Extra Innings next year.
Work your magic Theo...

by Bosoxman34 on Nov 29, 2007 5:36 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Do it Theo. This is cannot lose. Keeping Jacoby, and Buchhy while gaining Santana is huge. You cant have two lefties in a Fenway rotation anyhow, so losing Lester isnt the end of the world. Id really be alright with losing Buchholz in any deal bringing Santana over, assuming a long term deal for Santana is accomplished prior.
The Sox will set the record for wins in a season IF they get Santana.

Lets not forget some things:

Drew has a down year and will probably rebound. What if he plays up to potential?
Manny has a "down" year for himself.
Papi was playing hurt all year.
Scrappy wasn't batting lead-off all year long. Jacoby is a legit lead-off hitter, giving us something we didnt really have all of 2007. And we can bat Scrappy further down. Jacoby will have at least as good a year defensively in 08 as Coco, and produce better w/ the bat.
Dice-K should rebound huge in 08

This could be ugly for the rest of MLB if only 2 or three of these things happen. It could be like the Patriots running all over the NFL :)

by Matzushocka on Nov 29, 2007 5:36 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Drew had a normal year for him and I don't expect much better.
Manny is a good hitter when he is in the lineup but he is only a fair defensive player, if that. Hope he can contribute all year.
Papi has a chance to have another wonderful year.
Jacoby should be a valuable leadoff hitter. With Dustin behind we have good table setters. Having Youk, Papi and Manny behind in some combination is pretty formidable.
Dice K should be better next year.

One not mentioned, is that our bench should be improved with replacements coming in for Willie Mo and Hinske.

by Longsuffering on Nov 29, 2007 6:50 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

I think Drew will be better. I also think Manny's defense (especially at fenway) is under-rated.

by Matzushocka on Nov 29, 2007 7:26 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Drew will be better, because he all but has to be.

Manny's defense is underrated at Fenway only, IMHO.

by Allen Chace on Nov 29, 2007 11:00 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Although it is 82 games in Boston, there is also 82 games elsewhere... I for one, don't under-rate Manny's defense... he stinks. He doesn't push himself, and won't with this attitude. I personally would love to see him part of the trade in some manner and keep Crisp. I know it won't happen that way, but without Manny, I'd be a happier person.

The Red Head

by the red head on Nov 30, 2007 10:38 AM EST up 0 recs

Oh, dear

Manny generally plays 140 games per year, out of a total of 162 and people give him crap about faking injuries.

In the beginning of the season and when he comes off the DL, Manny hustles around the field and the bases because his hamstrings don't hurt. There's a reason he's also called Hammy Ramirez. He's an ideal DH, but that spot is filled on the Red Sox' roster.

Manny's a hall-of-famer, and one of the best right-handed hitters of our generation and of all time. Personally, I think he has the sweetest swing in baseball.

No team is better off without Manny Ramirez.

I hope we can put "trade Manny" to bed.

"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on Nov 30, 2007 12:38 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Oh, dear

Unless we can get Pujols for him. Similar production from a younger player who, last season to the contrary, almost never gets hurt, whose salary is lower, and who can play both corner infield positions and the outfield?

I'd make that deal, but that's about the only one.

by RSNexile on Nov 30, 2007 1:21 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Oh, dear

Wow, must be tough to PLAY at the most 4.5 hours a day. Some WOMEN work a lot longer and harder than Manny does, and doesn't get the satisfaction that he does. Wake up... the man is not going to be the 'power' hitter he has been in the past and his swing, as sweet as it is, will deteriorate as '08 plays out.

I can no longer contain myself of fans that find it necessary to 'hold onto' players because of 'what they've done.'

The sooner the better Manny leaves, the sooner I'll feel as though I'm free of my aching back.

The Red Head

by the red head on Nov 30, 2007 5:37 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Oh, dear

Your male chauvinism and sexism angers me.
By your logic no one should ever get hurt "playing" baseball, unless they get hit with a ball or possibly someone's cleats. Clearly baseball, while it doesn't require the same sort of physical endurance as a triathlon or a marathon or the physical contact of football, is a very physically taxing sport. Some players' bodies react in certain ways more than others. I think, especially considering the fact that he tore it up in the postseason, it's a little early to count Manny out.

That being said, I do think we're paying him an awful lot and if he doesn't reach his pre-2007 levels of production we shouldn't exercise his options. I'd give him one more year to prove that he still deserves the reputation that he's got as one of the best hitters in baseball though.

by B VT on Nov 30, 2007 7:27 PM EST up 0 recs

Yup.

Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Nov 30, 2007 7:37 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

jeez oh man

this Santana news is making my day.
Just think...
Beckett>Santana>Matsuzaka>Schilling>Wakefield>Buccholtz

on top of that...

Posada claims Pettitte is leaning towards retiremnt!!!

let's go back2back2back

by mpieretti on Nov 29, 2007 5:40 PM EST 0 recs

"Beckett > Santana"

I'm as big a Beckett proponent as anyone, but I give Santana the edge here, at least over the course of a full season. Beckett may have the "big game" edge, but then again Johan is no post-season slouch himself.

Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Nov 29, 2007 7:22 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: "Beckett > Santana"

I thought about naming Santana the #1 starter but thought it would be best for the team if he earned his way there.

We don't want to piss of Beckett by paying Santana a ton of money and then just naming him our ace.

Beckett is 6-2 in his postseason starts. He carried the team past the Indians in the ALCS-- I think he's earned top dog status for now

"It was Beckett's 3rd post season complete game shut-out. In Tom Verducci's Inside Baseball column this morning, Tom points out that only Christy Mathewson has more post season shut-outs than Beckett with four. Beckett also became the first pitcher in MLB history to throw a complete game shut out with no walks and no extra base hits."

Need to look up Santana's post season numbers and see how they compare.

What a great problem we could have!!!

xxCRACKxx flies the ball into the cool October night...

by mpieretti on Dec 2, 2007 1:42 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: "Beckett &gt; Santana"

You needn't look far, because they are in fact posted directly above your post.

by 0157H7 on Dec 3, 2007 1:58 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: "Beckett &amp;gt; Santana"

My bad, those are only the numbers from 04. His baseball-reference page lists his post-season stats:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=santajo02&post=1&t=p

by 0157H7 on Dec 3, 2007 2:00 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

The rumor is over at MLBTR.com.

Let me paraphrase all the conversations:

As we know the offer is Lester, Coco, Lowrie and Masterson for Johan Santana.
Yankees, this is not confirmed, just a rumor offered Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and some parts.
Mets want in but refuse to give up Jose Reyes, which means they are offering nothing.
Twins want Ellsbury or Buchholz from the Sox, Hughes or Cano or Jaba from the Yankees, or Jose Reyes from the Mets.
rumors are that the Dodgers, Angels, Mariners and the Reds are all in this but will not give up their prized top prospects which I assume is guys like Kershaw and Adenhart.
Most people believe this is it for the Sox since they most likely will not give up either Ellsbury or Buchholz and in truth Theo is just making the Yankees deal one of the two stud pitchers Hughes or Jaba.
Everyone thinks the Twins move Bartlett to make room for a SS, Reyes. Which leaves the Yankees high and dry, but makes the Angels even more attractive with their young SS prospects.

8)Who Effing knows what will actually get Santana. IMO whomever blinks first and gives up the names the Twins are looking for get Santana.

Rumor again - it will take a 5+ year deal upwards of 130 million to sign Santana.
Yankee fans hate us and we hate them, nothing has changed.

check it out, MLBTR.com

by SoxAcumen on Nov 29, 2007 5:49 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Honestly, I don't like this deal that much.

Lowrie is expendable in my opinion, as he has had a miserable fall.

Crisp, get rid of him asap.

What gets to me is that I really like Lester and Masterson. Both have ace potential, personally I feel more so Lester than Masterson. Lester is 6 years younger, and Santana is almost 30 already. Won't be long before he begins to decline. We could be stuck with him until he's 36 putting up average numbers at a price tag of over 25M a year.

by Albert Chang on Nov 29, 2007 6:01 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

The payroll won't kill us as long as we let Manny go after next season, but I just have a feeling Lester will come back to bite us.

by Albert Chang on Nov 29, 2007 6:02 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

I love Lester, I jsut think he has a chance of not living up to his potential. Even when he has been good he has struggled with control, and even after 3 years it doesn't seem to be getting any better. It's hard to tag a pitcher an ace if they are only making it through 6 innings max a start and are walking people.

As for Bowden or Masterson, both have potential of being Aces, but they also have the chance of bottoming out, it happens all the time (Snyder himself was once considered a potential future ace...do think anyone would still say that about him). And the chances of them turning into one of the top 5 pitchers in the game (like Santana) is slim, and the chances of them being the best pitcher (like Santana is) is even slimmer.

by Realistic on Nov 30, 2007 9:59 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

I'm not sure it's fair to judge Lester the same as you would any other player. After surviving cancer, he was basically starting from scratch. You really have to give him another year or two to see if he'll improve.

That said, of all the pitchers mentioned here as possible parts of a trade for Santana, I think he's the most disposable.

by RSNexile on Nov 30, 2007 11:51 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Yes this is true, but I've followed Lester even before he had cancer and he has always had control issues. Cancer definitely set him back, I just think that control looks like it will always be an issue for him. He might get it under control enough to be successful (and I think he will), but I just don't think he will ever reach his full potential. His control issues has lowered his ceiling so to speak

by Realistic on Nov 30, 2007 12:01 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

I think we as Red Sox fans get caught up in the hype of our prospects. Yes, Jacoby and Buccholz are the real deal. Lester, Masterson, and Lowrie- probably not.

We have to look at this from the Twins' point of view.

They get a CF without much offensive production. A young lefty with control issues, who always manages to get his pitch count to around 100 by the end of the 5th inning (and has put up very average ML stats), and two unproven minor league prospects.

They give up Johan Santana
Johan friggen Santana people.

If I were the Twins, I would never make this deal. It would definetly take Jacoby or Buccholz/ Joba or Hughes, plus a lot of high value prospects

by Schulz on Nov 29, 2007 7:44 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

I wouldn't see there being a huge problem of signing Santana to something along the lines of 6y/130mil. I think if we trade for him, which is a big if, the extension will quickly follow.

by gnick55 on Nov 29, 2007 6:05 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

I'm the rain on everyone's parade!

If this happens it'll be extraordinary. I just don't think it'll get the deal done. If I were the Twins, I'd be asking for either Buchholz or Ellsbury as opposed to Lester or Crisp.

NY will need to bring more to the party then Kennedy and Cabrera. They'll need to include either Hughes, Chamberlain, Cano or a combination thereof. As good as prospects as Hughes and Chamberlain are I think NY is putting waaaay too much stock in how good they can be. We have all seen great prospects not live up to expectations and sample sizes for both of them is way too small at this stage.

We are talking about Santana. This is like getting Koufax at 25, or Pedro when we got him. Let me introduce you to our first 3 starting pitchers(not in any particular order)
Santana
Beckett
Dice-K

Jesus, that's just brutal for everyone else in the league. You are looking at 70-80 quality starts right there. We instantly become a 105 win team if this comes off.

by sydneysox on Nov 29, 2007 6:30 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Yeah, but think of it from the Twins perspective. Currently the Sox and Yanks are the only ones with realistic offers, neither seem to be willing to budge in the Twins demands for Huges/Joba/Cano/Ellsbury/Clay. If they sit pat until either the Sox or Yanks up their ante, and neither team does, the Twins keep Santana and in a year he files for FA and the twins get NOTHING. As much as they might want Clay or ELlsbury, Jed/Bowden/Coco/Lester is nothing to balk at, and is a lot better then sitting pat and getting nothing. That's 3 level A prospects. I'd say if Santana had 2 more years than yeah, sit pat and stall until Yanks or Sox budge, and if not enjoy another year with the best pitcher and re-enter the trading table the next off season. However, the fact that he is gone next year if not traded, you have to pull the trigger.

Put it this way, we didn't give up that much for Beckett. We only gave one A level prospect (Hanley who at the time was struggling at the plate....though I guess he turned out pretty good) and one B level prospect (Anibal, who faked people out with his no-hitter, but then came back down to earth). Now given, Beckett wasn't considered the best pitcher in the game at the time, but still I think it's a decent comparison

by Realistic on Nov 30, 2007 10:15 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

I agree that the Twins don't have much of a choice. I am not trying to state other wise, I am just pointing something out.

Correct me if I am wrong but I just want to state that the Twins don't get nothing they get 2 first round draft picks if Johan is lost to FA. That is with the assumption the Twins offer arbitration, which they will.

Other then that though I still agree two draft picks for Johan is a terrible loss.

by drabidea on Nov 30, 2007 10:38 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

True, this is very true. I was thinking more in the lines of what they would get that would be "Major league ready" in the next two years, but yeah, they would at least get 2 first round draft picks

by Realistic on Nov 30, 2007 11:10 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Most of the comments I've seen so far, both here and on other blogs, is "Go for it -- JS is [one of] the best pitcher out there." (at least from Sox fans). None of these comments address, however, the park splits that Santana has. Per Baseball Reference (http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/psplit.cgi?n1=santajo02), his ERA in Fenway is 6.9, more than twice his overall 3.2 with an OPS of .856, 50% higher than his overall rate. Considering that he practically owns Boston in Minn, this is clearly a park effect.
Then there's the question of is he really the best. Baseball Prospectus's VORP scale has him 11th in 2007, slightly behind Beckett and on a par with Haren, the other most frequently mentioned trade target.

by MJMcC on Nov 29, 2007 6:34 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Yeah, that's 11th in 2007. Where was he from 2003-2006, around the top 3 I should imagine.
He'll be one of the top 3 pitchers for the next 4 years at least, to me its well worth the price we are offering and giving him 5 years.

by sydneysox on Nov 29, 2007 6:39 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Sydneysox, think about what you just typed...

11th for 2007, but earlier in his career he was one of the top three...

All of a sudden, I'm nervous... yeah, 32 and on a decline of his possibilities... that can hurt.

The Red Head

by the red head on Nov 30, 2007 10:45 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

He's about to turn 29, not 32

by Schulz on Nov 30, 2007 7:19 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Thanks for the link.

I highly recommend everybody clicking it and checking out (way down) his stats at Fenway. Then click on Fenway.

You'll notice that his awful stats there were compiled over 10 2/3 innings in 2000, 2002 and 2003.

In other words, Santana hasn't started a single game in Fenway since he became, well, The Best Pitcher in the game.

Also... 10 2/3 innings is a remarkably small sample size. So small it's basically of no significance.

You also might notice that his home/away splits for his career aren't that different (you'll find those higher up on the page).

I, for one, don't have a worry at all about Santana pitching at Fenway. My guess is he'll be un-f'in-believable; aka Santana.

by Hughie Jennings on Nov 29, 2007 6:45 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Fenway is brutal on Lefties.

This is just a fact and probably why Lester has +4.00 era.

Johan will be a major help on the road.

by SoxAcumen on Nov 29, 2007 8:19 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Lester has a high ERA because he's struggled with command and given up a lot of hits. His career major league WHIP is 1.566 (!!!). He's lucky to make it past the 5th inning in most of his starts.

There's a thread on SOSH projecting Santana, and how Fenway might affect him. One of the observations was that Santana biggest problem lately has been left-handed slugging, which pitching at Fenway would help with. Check it out:
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?s=d524ce3c0a5fc5a7da529f8cbb37d2c1&showtopic=25714

by 0157H7 on Nov 29, 2007 11:18 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Fenway is brutal on Lefties, this is a fact.

People can call it a myth or whatever, but the truth is for the Sox, right handed pitchers are better in Fenway.

Look at the Sox history, find me a quality Lefties who have done well in Fenway.

This is why I keep pushing Haren, he will most likely be better in Fenway than Santana.

by SoxAcumen on Nov 30, 2007 1:14 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Mel Parnell, Bill Lee, Bruce Hurst.

Hurst pitched great in Fenway.

As mentioned above, Lester's problem is control, not the park.

by kite in a gale on Nov 30, 2007 4:44 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

This guy was pretty good too.

Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Nov 30, 2007 4:57 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

3 lefties in what 100years?

I am going to find some site that explains this to you guys. I know it bc someone long ago explained why Lefties do poorly in Fenway. When I find someone on the net who explains it better than I, we can continue.

Until then, I guess you have to take my word, Lefties do poorly in Fenway.

by SoxAcumen on Nov 30, 2007 7:48 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Did you see my post below?

Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Nov 30, 2007 7:55 PM EST up 0 recs

Lefties @ Fenway

Here are few lefties I've found that have pitched pretty well at Fenway:

Scott Kazmir - (9 GS) 2.73 ERA (career ERA 3.64)
CC Sabathia - (3 GS) 2.35 ERA (career ERA 3.83)
Andy Pettitte (14 G/12 GS) 3.70 ERA (career ERA 3.83)
Mark Mulder (5 GS) 2.93 ERA (career ERA 4.18)
Jimmy Key (17 G/15 GS) 3.49 ERA (career ERA 3.51)
Jim Abbott (6 GS) 3.07 ERA (career ERA 4.25 ERA)

Here are some former Red Sox lefties:

Former Red Sox reliever Tom Burgmeier was very good at Fenway. In 121 appearances there, he had a 2.55 ERA. In 127 appearances, Tony Fossas had a 2.77 career ERA at Fenway.

Frank Viola (48 starts) 3.84 career ERA at Fenway. In his two full seasons in Boston (1992-1993), Viola had a 3.36 ERA at home and a 3.34 ERA on the road.

I'm sure there are others, and there are pitchers like former Angel Chuck Finley that were no better or worse when pitching at Fenway. In 20 games (16 starts), Finley had a 3.90 ERA at Fenway. His career ERA was a very similar 3.85.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Nov 30, 2007 9:15 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Lefties @ Fenway

So you guys are saying that everything I have ever read about Lefties getting raked in Fenway is a lie or made up?

That teams do not stack their line ups with right handed hitters who can float a fly ball off the wall or hammer a line drive off the wall?

That RHanded hitters do not hit better against LHPs?

That the Sox have not tried to stack their teams over the years with Rhanded hitters?

Sox get right handed hitters and right handed strike out pitchers, and right handed ground ball pitchers. This has been their strategy for years.

You can pull up stats all you guys want, the fact is a LHP cannot pitch inside consistently to a Rhanded hitter in Fenway bc 1) Rhanded hitters hit LHP on average better, 2) there are more RHanded hitters in the line up against a LHP 3) Rhanded hitters pull the ball off the wall and get more hits/hrs/runs v. LHP bc the green monster makes hits when certain at bats should be outs, and 4) if you pitch inside to a RHander on average he will pull the ball more than go the opposite way.

Seriously, I thought this was common knowledge.

When I find someone who explains this in a nice article ill post it, but I am telling you guys, no hard feelings or nothing, I knew this as a 12 year old back in CT. I hear this talk about lefties in Fenway all the time.

I want to know if this is true or made up by someone in the 70s, we need Peter Gammons to clarify I think.

by SoxAcumen on Nov 30, 2007 10:46 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Lefties @ Fenway

I'm all about challenging prevailing wisdom.

Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Dec 1, 2007 12:01 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

And his WHIP was still only 1.07 and his K/9 rate around 10 for 2007. I don't see any decline in there yet at all. Other players have up and down years, this guy is awesome every year.

by sydneysox on Nov 29, 2007 6:43 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

And I presume some-if not- most of those 13 losses last year was a tribute to Minnesota's atrocious offense.

"Why not us?"

by reversecursing on Nov 29, 2007 6:44 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

He is the best pitcher in baseball folks.

by Matzushocka on Nov 29, 2007 7:11 PM EST 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

True dat...Let me go one further. Johan dominates like 99' Pedro.

He has 2 change ups, 2 fastballs and a slider and most batters cannot tell what he is throwing until its in the glove.

Johan Santana and Roy Halladay have an argument for the filthiest pitchers from the past 10 years.

by SoxAcumen on Nov 29, 2007 8:21 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Halladay loses that argument, over the last five years at least.

Manny Ramirez is a bad man

by tommy.otm on Nov 29, 2007 8:30 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

No one does or ever did dominate like 99 Pedro, not in the modern era at least.

It's doubtful we'll ever see such a performance again, honestly.

by Allen Chace on Nov 29, 2007 11:00 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Is Bob Gibson in the modern era?

Halladay is one of the most underrated filthy pitchers of the past 10 years. When healthy the guy can go from tough to UNHITTABLE. its a shame that guy plays in a place no one will ever see him. I believe Halladay has 2 Cys as well. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but 2 Cys is the same as Johan.

Johan had 99' Pedro stuff during his Cy Young years. Does he still have it? probably not.

by SoxAcumen on Nov 30, 2007 1:22 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Pedro's 99 ERA+ = 243
Pedro's 00 ERA+ = 291 (WHIP: .737)

Next best back-to-back years?

Greg Maddux, 94-95. 271, 262.

Johan's best single season ERA+ = 182. (Santana's best WHIP in a single season, .921, is really a virtual tie with Pedro's 2nd and 3rd best seasons in that category, which were both: .923)

I want Santana as much as anyone, but I think comparing him to Pedro is unfair to him and an insult to Martinez himself.

by Allen Chace on Nov 30, 2007 1:41 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Halladay has 1 Cy Young (2003)...

Allen Chase, you are SOOO FRIGGIN' RIGHT. And when you're right, you're right.

Santana is awesome. A dream of a hunk of a superstar that I'd love to see in a Red Sox uni.

But Pedro was god-like. There is absolutely no comparison. I'd give up Ellsbury, Buchholz and Pedroia (and more) for his equal today.

Consider:

Santana's BEST year: 2004 with an ERA+ of 182 and a Cy Young. Impressive. Very.

Pedro's best year: 2000 with an ERA+ of 291 (and his final Cy Young).

Pedro has had four other seasons of ERA+ of over 200, plus one more higher than Santana at 189.

That's a total of SIX seasons that Pedro had that he bested Santana at his best. There is NO CONTEST.

I hope everybody got to see Pedro in his prime, because you won't see it again in your lifetime. Not even if the Sox trade for Johan Santana.

PS. Beckett, in his best full season (2007), posted a 145 ERA+. He was awesome. Friggin' awesome. And he wasn't even in the same universe as Pedro.

by Hughie Jennings on Nov 30, 2007 1:39 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Aww geez. Leave it to me to spell Allen Chace's name as 'Allen Chase.' Sorry man.

Must be the Holiday Ale Festival speaking.

by Hughie Jennings on Nov 30, 2007 1:41 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: Santana to Sox Trade in the Works

Sweet mercy. The misspelling is cool, thanks for correcting it, though I'm pretty used to both my first and last name being "altered" from time to time.

And we basically posted the same things about Santana-Martinez at the same time.

by Allen Chace on Nov 30, 2007 1:42 AM EST up 0 recs