Nationals Trying To Move John Lannan; Should Red Sox Inquire?
by Marc Normandin on Feb 2, 2012 2:15 PM EST
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PrintKen Rosenthal and Jon Morosi are reporting that the Washington Nationals, fresh off of winning their arbitration case against John Lannan, are looking to trade him in order to make room for the just-signed Edwin Jackson.
Lannan will make $5 million in 2012, and won't be a free agent until after the 2013 season. At first blush, his numbers are not impressive -- just 5.2 strikeouts per nine in 2011, career punch out rate of 4.7, and a 1.4 career K/BB ratio. At second glance, well, they still aren't impressive, but they are better than you would think given those peripherals.
Lannan is a groundball pitcher who has never induced fewer than 50 percent grounders, and holds a career groundball-to-flyball ratio of 1.9. His FIP haven't exactly been stellar despite this, as he's been about 12 percent worse than the league in that regard over his career.
His ERA has been a bit better than average, though, over 751 career innings. There's either something he does that helps him beat out his FIP each year, or he's the luckiest dude on the mound most nights. While this might not account for all of it, Lannan does do one thing that FIP doesn't account for: he's exceptional when it comes to inducing double plays.
Like with any statistic, there is an expected number of double plays a pitcher is assumed to induce each year. Since 2008, Lannan's first full season in the majors, he has induced 29 more double plays than expected according to Baseball Prospectus, the sixth-best total in the majors. That's roughly seven extra double plays induced per year, a figure that's worth a few tenths of a run of ERA each season -- that explains at least some of the discrepancy between his FIP and ERA. Joe Saunders is similar in that regard as well, as has been discussed this winter, and like Saunders, Lannan is left-handed with average control of his stuff.
Lannan certainly isn't a game-changing kind of pitcher, but he has averaged 179 innings a year over the last four seasons in the majors (and 189 innings per year if you include the 40-plus frames he threw in the minors in 2010 after experiencing some elbow discomfort). He's not the sexiest option, but he's at least been dependable in terms of showing up and giving his team a chance each night out. With Boston's infield defense behind him, at least some of the switch from the NL to the AL could be neutralized, too, and being left-handed in the AL East certainly isn't a bad thing.
Think of it this way: Lannan might be something like the healthy version of Aaron Cook. Cook was actually an above-average starter before he began to have his health issues (and had to possibly deal with the after-effects of too many innings at altitude), though it's hard to remember that now given those problems have reduced him to non-guaranteed contracts and spring training invites.
Since Jackson is no longer an option and Oswalt might not be going forward, how do you feel about the Red Sox inquiring about Lannan? They could possibly use extra pieces from the 40-man to get him -- the Nationals are using 38 spots on their 40-man roster, including Jackson. They could also see just how much the Nationals are willing to pay to be rid of his rotation spot in order to make room for Jackson. What would it take for this to be okay? Should Boston be waiting it out, or aiming higher?
Thanks to R.J. Anderson of Baseball Prospectus for digging up the expected double play data.
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Well, I think he's better than what we've got...
… and he’s at the price tag we seem to be offering guys: $5 million a year.
I say, ship them Doubront and Lars Anderson, and call it a day. Won’t that get it done?
Love that Edwin Jackson went to the Nationals… I think behind the Mariners and Cardinals, that was the team I suggested would jump in here and sign him.
And with one more option off the table, the Red Sox get closer to Spring Training without making a move to shore up the rotation.
BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH OMFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFG SIGN STARTERS!
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
I feel half-vindicated
Boston didn’t get Jackson like I thought they might, but he did sign a one-year deal. Yay?
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Feb 2, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Between $8 and $12 million...
… slightly more than the $5 million the Sox reportedly offered.
So, when Oswalt signs with the Cardinals or the Rangers for somewhere around $10 million, will everyone see that our offers weren’t legit? I don’t think we ever expected either of them to accept those offers.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
He would have been crazy to come to Boston
and we are now reduced to rifling through the Nationals garbage.
Oh how the mighty have fallen.
A little over 7 years ago Dave Roberts stole second and scored in Game 4 of the ALCS. It is interesting to think about how different the Red Sox would have looked in 2005 had they been swept in 2004.
A little over 4 months ago Papelbon blew a save, and the Rays rallied from a 7 run deficit in the 8th. I have this sinking feeling that just the win in 2004 changed the course of the Red Sox for years, so too will the failure to make the playoffs last year. The fallout from the 2011 collapse may prove as negative as the fallout from the 2004 comeback was positive.
BTW - Am I the only wondering
why they let Bedard walk…..
I don't think he wanted to play in Boston
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Yeah, pretty sure he wanted the first train out of town.
The Pirates aren’t your “contending” destination, even if they might manage to do a bit before the trade deadline.
As I said when the move was announced, he goes to the Pirates and benefits from pitching in the NL, can put some nice numbers together, and gets traded to a contender again at the deadline.
Seems like a good way to game the system for low stress innings all summer, and then… voila, a playoff team… unless you get traded to Boston just in time for their epic September collapse.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Nationals a contender now?
So much for the “pillow” contract with a contender. I almost never blame a player for taking more money and suspected all along Jackson would take the most money and run. He is also smart to stay in the NL.
Sad to say, but the Sox may be only on the periphery of contender status. remember, two consecutive third place finishes.
He didn't take the most money
Jackson apparently turned down a few three-year offers for about $30M.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Feb 3, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but... teams like the Orioles were making them.
I doubt a team better than the Orioles offered the 3/$30 (unless the Nationals might have been one, and Boras said… let’s do a one year deal, and see how it goes).
I kicked this around the other day, but the Nationals have a decent team, and a decent pitching rotation. Are they better than the Phillies and Braves right now? Probably not. Are the Marlins better today? Probably.
How, though, is this a big difference from today’s Red Sox? Are we better than the Yankees and Rays? Probably not. Are the Blue Jays better today? Probably.
So, then… the biggest difference probably comes down to facing the AL East line ups in small hitters parks vs. the NL East line ups in… well, the parks aren’t really much more favorable either, but still… I’d take the NL East every time, wouldn’t you?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
your cheeriness has reversed
I can’t really see how the Jays are possibly any better than the Sox.
Anyways, Marc’s point here was that he didn’t take the most money- which was what was said above. And he was right.
Yeah, I've been pretty doom and gloom lately.
My kingdom for a #4 starter!
I was mostly countering the elimination of the Nationals as a “contender” that Marc was responding to and trying to make the argument that they could be as in contention as the Sox… sure that point was valid: he didn’t take the 3/$30 from the Orioles and/or whomever offered that.
Though, I do wonder whether the Nationals offered a longer term deal and Boras suggested they do the pillow contract instead… though, in that case, I feel like he’d have gone the “opt out” route he went with the Yankees…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
But he can take 1/10 this year and potentially 3/30 to 4/40 next year
it’s a gamble, but it’s for somewhere between 10 and 20 more million dollars, and unless he gets hit by a truck this year he’ll get a job with someone next year.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
Whisky
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I’d love to have him in the mix, but I wouldn’t automatically slot him into the rotation and $5M is probably a little too pricy for a guy competing to be in the rotation with no obvious fallback. If the Nats want to pick up half I do it for spare parts. If they want to pick up closer to 4MM, we could spice up the offer a little.
So, you're saying you think Vicente Padilla, Aaron Cook or Carlos Silva will beat him out?
For a spot in our rotation??
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
there's a decent shot
Lannan is not terribly good. I have hopes that, if healthy, Cook can be alright.
Lannan might just be younger Cook, though
Without the mileage.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Feb 2, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Okay... let me try that again...
Padilla/Cook/Silva will both beat him out, and contribute 180 innings in 2012? I’ll even give you the combo… between the three of them, we’ll get 180 innings as reliable as what Lannan can offer?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
here's what I'm saying
I’d rather take that $5 million and save it for later, when more pitchers are available for trade and their salaries are lower because they’ve already been paid a decent part of them. If that means dealing with Cook rather than Lannan for a few months, I’m not sure that’s a major downgrade.
So no, I’d rather have Lannan than not have Lannan, but give that we appear to have about $5-6 million, regardless of what they say (basedon the offers they’ve made), I’d rather use that $5-6 million on someone that isn’t Lannan.
exactly
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Feb 2, 2012 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I think you're probably right.
I just want someone available for the #4 spot (pushing Bard to the #5) to start the season, and I’m becoming more and more resigned to the idea that we’re just not going to do it.
I mean, after all, if we’re not willing to increase the $5 million offers we’ve made to guys like Jackson and Oswalt, we didn’t make a big enough offer to Kuroda who went to the Yankees, we passed on the opportunity for Maholm who singed a reasonable deal for the Cubs…
I just think Cook/Silva/Padilla isn’t going to get it done in April, and as bad as the September collapse was in 2011, we killed ourselves getting out of the gate too.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Mid-season targets
A quick look at Cot’s for 2013 FA starters, thinking they are most likely to be dealt, shows a few likey targets; I guess Grienke or Marcum could be avaliable if the Brewers fall out of race. I’m guessing Brandon McCarthy will also be dealt by Oakland. Other than some real stiffs, other pitchers like Hamels, Blanton, Colby Lewis, Cain and Saunders will be on contending teams.
Also, Floyd will probably be dealt then, if not before the season
and Wandy’s contract may become more palatable at that point in the year (depending on who of the impending free agents gets extended or looks like they will).
Bedard... you both forgot Bedard, now with the Pirates.
Yeah, I don’t think we’ll be bringing him back either.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
How about Charlie Morton?
Not my first choice, but he could be dealt. Also Jason Vargas, Dustin Moseley, Tim Stauffer, Francisco Liriano (if his fastball comes back)…
All of those I’d rather have than the TPM.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
I'd much rather have the Sox give a shot to Cook, who, as you said, is not dissimilar
and acquire someone at or before the trade deadline, if we can stay in contention than give up any type of prospect and overpay Lannan.
Well, my suggestion was Doubront and Anderson, freeing up space on our 40 man.
Not enough to get it done??
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
I'd just rather save the $5 million for someone better, later in the year, when they cost less $
than to spend it on Lannan, who I don’t really think is better than the crap we have competing for a rotation spot.
Or I’d get Floyd. What does a Floyd cost? I’d pay it, at this point.
Since they don't have Floyd yet
I can only assume the conversation involved Ranaudo, Brentz, Jacobs, Doubront, and more.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Feb 2, 2012 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
And if it didn't before, I bet it will now.
This is the end result of waiting for the market to “come to us.” It’s here… we didn’t get the deal we wanted (how good does that Maholm deal look right now??), and the other GMs know we need better than we’ve got.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Eh
I’m not so sure about this hostage situation thing.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Feb 2, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
Seems to me to be a supply and demand thing.
I posted this elsewhere, but starting pitching pulled pretty big hauls this offseason for guys that weren’t much better than ‘above average" in pitcher’s parks.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Save the $5 million...
…to add at the trade deadline. If the Red Sox valued Oswalt and Jackson at $5m within their budget, I don’t see how $5m for Lannan makes sense.
by UltimateCranston on Feb 2, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, that's probably a fair assessment.
We have our value for players, and if that’s what we thought those guys were worth, we definitely won’t see Lannan as a $5 million a year pitcher.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
I agree, saving the money for someone who is actually good is probably a better opition.
Use the money to go after Floyd. Besides the Nats say they are looking for a long term center fielder. We don’t have that to offer.
by soxfan4ever34 on Feb 2, 2012 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
They're looking for a position player.
I’d give them Lars by himself, but Wash is reportedly hoping for someone who can play CF. Lannan’s a passable #5 SP. He’s no Floyd, of course, but decent for the back end slot.
What about the Gardner type we've got: Lin, right?
I get Lin and Linares confused sometimes.
The guy that’s a straight singles hitter, great defense, projects for CF, but there’s concern that since he has zero pop that he won’t maintain his OBP at the MLB level as pitchers will just throw it in the zone, and suffer his singles.
He’s on the 40 man, right? Is that the deal to make? We’ve got plenty of OF depth, don’t we?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Rizzo loves gloves
So he’s someone who might intrigue them.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Feb 2, 2012 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
Well, and maybe the less pop works in the NL better?
I mean, Gardner works for the Yankees well enough… so there’s an argument that Lin could work too, right?
However, is that going to work in our OF??
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
There's an argument, for sue
…but Gardner has an exceptional eye, ability to avoid strikeouts and play top-shelf defense. He is well above average at three things as a Major Leaguer. We could maybe give Lin credit for one or 1.5?
Still, point stands — Rizzo might not be able to get much more for Lannan. Still, I pass on him even at that price.
by UltimateCranston on Feb 2, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
Well, from what I've read, Lin has all three of those, right?
High OBP due to an exceptional eye, a good ability to slap pitches for singles (low strike outs as well), and expected to be a strong CF.
Though, again, I think your point about the $5 million a year is a valid one too.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
well in the minors, Lin has shown all three of those
it is most definitely worth mentioning that, if we’re going to view Gardner as a “singles-only hitter,” that last year, in AA and AAA, Lin had about HALF of the ISO that Gardner posted last year in the majors. So there’s “no power” and then there’s “NO POWER”
Ouch.
Again… my point there is that he probably doesn’t fit in the Sox plans, unless he improves that ISO (assuming LF is locked for a while, we make a play for Ellsbury to stay in CF, and Kalish/Linares/Brentz ends up in RF, of course).
So… a low value guy to us that might offer them an option in CF?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
But the Nats don't have the pop the yanks do. Gardner gets hidden with all those big bats.
He is the only speed option for NYY.
by soxfan4ever34 on Feb 2, 2012 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Granderson respectfully disagrees.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Joseph Vincent Paterno 12/21/26 - 1/22/12 RIP Coach
Penn State Forever
people dont realize but
Dice-k is back come june and we have enough depth that we dont need to bring someone else in
True, we don't NEED him, but Dice-K is likely back more around August 1st than June 1st,
and another arm to put out there in March won’t hurt.
I like Lannan’s gb to fb ratio.
You think the flotsam and jetsam
that we currently have vying for positions 4, 5, and insurance are “enough depth”, do ya?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I keep saying this again and again... but in 2011, we had the rosy projections for:
Lester (Ace)
Beckett (Fading Ace/Odd Year)
Buchholz (Ace Jr. due for regression)
Lackey (bad 2010, but a great finish to the year, so a rebound candidate)
Dice K (frustrating, but solid #5)
Wakefield (the old man, but still a reliable innings eater for emergency spot starts)
Aceves (stolen from the Yankees, potential starter)
Miller (harness his potential, and Curt Young could make him Randy Johnson 2.0)
Doubront (looked good in September, so could compete for a rotation spot)
Tazawa (ready in the summer, after Tommy John)
We thought we had 10 deep in pitchers last year, and it flamed out spectacularly.
So… what do we have in 2011???
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
JACK
SQUAT
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I meant "what do we have in 2012??"
However… either question seems pretty appropriate at this point, though the past tense might have worked better.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Eliminating those 5 completely (including Beckett, who had a solid season before September)...
… we still would have had 5 starters in 2011: Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, Dice K and Doubront (who some did think could win a rotation spot last spring).
Do the same exercise for 2012… let’s assume that we lose either Beckett or Buchholz for significant time due to injury (I think a reasonable concern), and that Bard maxes out at 150 quality innings. I’ll toss out the Padilla/Cook/Silva crap shoot much the way folks didn’t have rosy expectations for Wake/Miller/Aceves in 2011.
If we do that, with what we have today… what exactly are we left with?
Lester
Beckett or Buchholz (assuming one of the two can stay healthy)
Dice K by August 1st (to take over where Bard leaves off)
Miller/Doubront/Tazawa (guessing at least 2 of the 3 are in the bullpen, right?)
Wilson??
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
oh, don't get me wrong
our pitching situation now sucks. It really sucks. It certainly sucks more than last year’s looked like it was going to suck. Just saying that I don’t think it was all quite that positive going into last year.
Most had us as the 2nd best rotation in baseball, if I remember correctly.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Hm I'm remembering that from 2010, but not so much from 2011
maybe my memory is skewed. Certainly thought we’d be better off than the Yankees.
It may be mine that's skewed
But I’m pretty sure.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
No, I think that's right.
After the season Buchholz had just turned in, Lackey was at the #4 spot (a former ace, who should have been solid there), with Beckett and Lester at the front end, and Dice K (who was signed as though he might be an ace) as the #5?
Yeah, it wasn’t Philly’s rotation, but I think a lot of baseball folks thought that was a lot of depth, before we looked at what was lined up behind them if one (or two or three or… well, anyway) went down with a significant injury.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Waiting for Dice-K?
If we are pinning our hopes on Dice-K bouncing back in August, we’re in more trouble than I thought.
Zaka sucks
Everything Must Go.
by Sean O on Feb 2, 2012 4:20 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
One word stands out
dependable.
With 2 starters undergoing Tommy John in the last year, and Clay having the bum back as well as Josh’s minor injuries that make him miss starts, a guy who pitches 180+ innings a year without a Lackey ERA ……
I’d investigate him. He’s a 4-5 starter. We’re not looking for an ace, just a guy who won’t kill the bullpen and keep us in games. Worth investigating.
simul justus et peccator
My thoughts exactly.
Again, I don’t want to give up Ranaudo or Brentz for him, but if we can get him for a prospect without a position in Boston: Doubront, Anderson, or as I suggested above, maybe Lin?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
It's all about the price
I’ll take anything that’s cheap.
Yes! Good ground ball pitcher, not many strikeouts but yes
He’s on my BZ list haha
"Remember, it's not over until the fat lady drops one."
Let's assume for a minute
that Bard and Acevas will compete for #4 spot, as all the hype and hope from the Sox indicate one of them will be given the shot.
That essentially means that Cook, Doubront, German, Padilla, Silva, Tazawa, etc. Are competing for that 5th spot. I like the current discussions that see a solid #5 and depth coming from that group, probably as good or better than Lannan. This makes me want to wait to see what happens in ST before trading
for anyone but Floyd, Garza, or someone at that level. IMO, no more Sox prospects unless the return has a very high probability of substantially improving the team.
by GerryT on Feb 2, 2012 3:15 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Agree.
This is one of the most reasonable things said here.
Pass
Save the cash and assets for something better. Keep making a play for Oswalt. If not Oswalt, who knows what becomes available during the season. There will be better options at the trading deadline, and as currently constructed, this team will be in contention at that time.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
This
If the Sox have, say, $5-$8m to spend this season via trade and free agency, I think that money would be better spent elsewhere, even if the cost in prospects is not significant.
by UltimateCranston on Feb 2, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
We will be those options
At the deadline. If we have any parts any same GM would touch with a ten foot pole.
Everything Must Go.
by Sean O on Feb 2, 2012 4:23 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Really?
With a top tier offense, three excellent starters, and a more than solid bullpen, you still think we will be out of contention come the trade deadline?
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Feb 2, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
Sean's a little...fatalistic.
That said, it is a real possibility.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
3?
I see 1 dependable excellent starter. Lester. Buchholz and Beckett could always turn in excellent seasons, but are not consistent.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Joseph Vincent Paterno 12/21/26 - 1/22/12 RIP Coach
Penn State Forever
While true, they should be able to scrape by enough to not be completely out of it at the Trade Deadline
That said, I don’t think they currently have enough to really contend for a playoff spot, and they’ll probably end up where they did last year or the year before, enough not to sell off their pieces, but not enough to really feel confident in the team if by some miracle they limp into the playoffs.
by South Coast Ghost on Feb 2, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
Three potentially excellent starters.
But, yeah, Beckett and Buchholz are definitely not locks.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
top tier offense, embarassing, abysmal rotation
In any other division we’d compete, but our incompetent roster construction will kill us in the AL East. I’m hoping we finish third.
Everything Must Go.
Third???
Why on earth would you want to see your team finish in third place? Is proving your negative position on the team’s construction more important than them actually winning?
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Feb 2, 2012 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
Because I think that we might finish fourth
And third is better than fourth.
Everything Must Go.
by Sean O on Feb 2, 2012 9:59 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Some would say if we're going to be out of the playoffs anyway
We might as well get better draft position
And who says that's a given?
Especially since the extra playoff spot might be in play this year.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Feb 2, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
Oh I agree
I think they have a decent shot at the playoffs, I was just saying that if you ARE going to miss the playoffs, you have a perverse incentive to do as a poorly as possible.
I agree
If you have a team that has no shot at the post season. However, that isn’t the case with this team.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Feb 2, 2012 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
I am losing any and all perspective.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I was just wondering
If all the positive Lannan voting is because it’s really a decent idea or because we’ve all lost our minds.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Feb 2, 2012 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
It's the latter
It’s desperation.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I don't mind Lannan
If the Nationals pick up some of the money, and the cost in prospects is left to 40-man roster fluff. But the chance of the Nats basically handing him over for the baseball equivalent of nothing is pretty slim.
Basically, Lannan is fine if he doesn’t eat up the team’s flexibility for later. If he’s going to, not a big fan of the idea. Asking doesn’t hurt, though.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Feb 2, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
OK...
…if the Nats pick up at least $2m of his salary, I would consider it, but if that means giving up a real prospect, then, no.
by UltimateCranston on Feb 2, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
I think I'm conceding this point.
I can’t see straight anymore.
Nothing but BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH OMFG SIGN STARTERS!!
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
It's a third option
I think I’ve noticed that on this site, if you post a poll (any poll) where the options are “yes” or “no”, regardless of the question, the overwhelming response would be “yes”.
Test it. Try posting a poll saying “should the Red Sox try to coax Roger Clemens out of retirement with a $20 million contract?”
Oh, God no!
Even I won’t go vote “yes” on that one.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
If I told you in November
we would be looking at the back end of the Nationals rotation, what would you have said.
I think the phrase is “Diminishing expectations”
GOO!
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Floyd
Please, please, please trade for him already.
by EchoDanno on Feb 2, 2012 4:00 PM EST via mobile reply actions
More options please...
This feels kinda like those Sox-related polls in the Globe where none of the provided choices fit how I really want to answer. On Lannan I need something more nuanced than a straight up yes or no. It kinda depends.
Thin likes nuance.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
So good.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
So good.
SWEEEET CAROLIIIIIIINE (bomp, bomp, baaaaa).
Wha? Huh?
Oh sorry, ignore the havoc that the prospect of seeing Carlos Silva attempt to pitch a meaningful number of innings for the Red Sox has wreaked with my sensibilities.
BLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHOMFGSIGNEFFINGSTARTERS!
The Year of Extreme Opinions
BLAAAAAAARGH OMFG SIGN STARTERS!!
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Feb 2, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
You know, I really do think this team is fairly good as is
But in order to have a shot at being great (and you need to be great in this division), it needed some type of mid-rotation starter to back-up our collection of injury concerns and past-their-primes and conversation projects. I’m guessing Ben thinks the same way, but after the Ross signing doesn’t have more than $5 million or so to offer anybody, which is kinda sad, because if you’re going to trade away Scutaro, at least get a damn starter to eat up the salary. Signing Ross for $3 million and only have $5m left over to offer a starter is a piss poor management job. If you combined that and offered it to Jackson he might actually be pitching for us this season. But no, you got a platoon OFer instead. Bravo.
by South Coast Ghost on Feb 2, 2012 4:50 PM EST reply actions
Yup.
$5 million isn’t going to get Jackson or Oswalt, and we’ve already missed on the cheap options earlier this offseason and watched Kuroda go to the Yankees.
Not sure that $8 million would have gotten Jackson away from the Nationals, but it does seem odd that we filled a “hole” with a $3 million platoon OF to play with Sweeney, by moving Scutaro and forcing us to move Aviles to either a platoon or straight starting SS.
Of course, on the plus side… at least we didn’t eat up more of that money by getting another starting SS… yet.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Summon the Edgar Renteria!!!!
The Year of Extreme Opinions
BLAAAAAAARGH OMFG SIGN STARTERS!!
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Feb 2, 2012 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
to further answer the question,
Yes, sure, they might as well inquire. Because they’ve inquired on damn near every other starter and haven’t ended up with any of them either.
I am once again going to float out THIS as an idea to bolster our rotation:
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Just switch the beer in the clubhouse to margaritas, is all.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
More and more I am thinking the Sox will not pick up another starter
Maybe they plan on seeing where they are in the standings come 31 July and then pull the trigger if they think they can compete???
"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis
Hmmm...
According to MLBTR, Texas appears to be out of the running for Roy. If St. Louis decides it’s too troublesome to shuffle their rotation/find McClellan a new home, do you think we’ll win him by default?
by ThisIsItThisIsIt on Feb 2, 2012 11:01 PM EST reply actions
Jackson is signed and Oswalt is a puss....
if the Sox are going to sign anybody….let it be a pitcher that keeps the ball on the ground
"You're either carrying a spear, or running from it"
by BigSpearDiplomacy on Feb 3, 2012 6:48 AM EST reply actions
His failure to sign with us...
(which response is like 60% sarcastic, but 40% nodding along).
The Year of Extreme Opinions
BLAAAAAAARGH OMFG SIGN STARTERS!!
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Feb 3, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
As always... a chuckle to start my day.
I have to admit… I’ve been the biggest Oswalt champion around here, but watching him try to find any place but Boston to pitch for 2012 has soured me a lot. Calling the Reds and looking for a job there, meeting with the Rangers (who have a full rotation), trying to coax the Cardinals to make a move to clear room for him.
To me, this is the opposite of Curt Schilling, who chose Boston over the Yankees for a few reasons (not the least of which, his knowledge as a fan of the game that winning a World Series – or two – in Boston would make him a legend)… but he chose Boston.
Now, granted, having won twice in the last decade, there’s less “history” to be made in Boston (call Theo and see if he’s got room in the Cubs rotation??), but the Cardinals have also won twice in the last decade. The Red Sox are clearly at the front of the pack of teams that could win in 2012, if they add another starter (and, yes, I’ll finally begin to concede… they might without another starter, if they found 2011 Garcia/Colon in Padilla/Cook).
So, if you’re not getting the long-term deal you want, you’re getting spurned by teams you’ve expressed a desire to pitch for… why don’t you look at your best chance to get a ring (which, to me, would be either Detroit or Boston, and he’s turned Detroit down already)??
I mean, maybe I don’t understand elite athletes, but as this stage of Oswalt’s career, he should be looking at his best opportunity to earn a ring, unless that’s not important to him. And if it’s not important to him… then scratch everything I said about him coming to Boston with a chip on his shoulder, something to prove and being a great fit for our #4 spot in the rotation.
Seriously, I think I’m losing all perspective and maybe my mind at this point.
BLAAAAAAAAAAARGH OMFG SIGN EFFIN STARTERS!!
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Actually, on a serious note...
… why hasn’t Oswalt called Theo? I mean, the compensation with Boston hasn’t been settled yet, so what if Oswalt went to the Cubs and freed Theo up to throw a back end of the rotation starter to Boston as compensation?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
what do the Cubs really stand to gain by throwing a bunch of money at a starter this year so they can give away another starter?
Plus, not exactly the most promising situation for Oswalt- bad team in a horrible ballpark to pitch in.
Yeah, I guess I didn't realize that it was a given the Cubs aren't contending in 2012.
I saw an article elsewhere suggesting that the Reds play for Latos, with Pujols and Fielder not just departing the NL Central, but the NL altogether… the Reds could be the favorite in the NL Central this year.
Of course, the Cardinals and perhaps the Brewers will be better than the Cubs too, so I guess this really doesn’t make any sense at all.
Now I get why he was talking to the Reds… good place to go chase a ring in the NL.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
well so far, he seems to be sticking to the particular teams he wants to pitch for and see if he can work something out with them
who are, incidentally (and I DO think it’s incidental), the two teams who were in the world series last year. I’m not sure he’s been trying to avoid Boston like crazy (he’s trying to avoid Detroit and Toronto as he’s actually said he won’t pitch there)- it may be that he’s competitive and thinks he has a better chance at his choice destinations than he has here.
He’s also trying to gain value- and while Texas isn’t exactly pitcher friendly, pitching a whole lot of games against the A’s and Mariners is pretty pitcher friendly, and there are a couple of pitcher friendly parks in that division, unlike this one. Detroit would maybe give him a better chance at a ring than Boston but, really, if you’re trying to rebuild value as a pitcher, how excited are you going to be to pitch with Prince Fielder and Miguel Cabrera manning the corner positions? And Jhonny Peralta at short? and some piece of crap at second? That’s an offense that’s going to get a lot of wins and a defense that’s going to make it look like you didn’t deserve them.
It’s also worth saying he hasn’t been spurned by the teams he wants to pitch for- reportedly the Cards are considering trading away Mclelland to sign him, so he may just be waiting that out.
But the Rangers and the Reds have...
… so he’s still in play with the Cardinals, but despite meeting with the Rangers, and asking the Reds for a spot on their team (according to the rumors), he didn’t get an opportunity with either of them.
Those were the “spurned” teams I meant: Reds, and now the Rangers.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
If he wants to stay home, I wonder about the Indians.
They need something to counter the Fielder signing.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
He wants to be near his family.
Candy-ass.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Lannan still has an option left, yes?
If so, why wouldn’t the Nats just stuff him in AAA as pitching depth?
Because the Nats are pinching pennies this offseason?
The evidence suggests otherwise.
I didn't say they're pinching pennies
but there aren’t a lot of teams out there that are gonna be thrilled to pay a guy $5 million to play in AAA.
I think it's like how we couldn't put Salty in the minors even though he had options
Once you’ve been in the majors long enough it doesn’t matter.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Feb 3, 2012 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
Why would they trade him?
Are the Nationals that deep in starters? Obvioulsly Lannan, like any player, can be had for a price, but I’m not sure why they would be so eager to move him after agreeing to a contract. He is listed on the depth chart as the #4 starter. The Nationals are not a small market team and they don’t behave or spend like one, so I don’t think $5 mil. is a burden.
...because they signed Edwin Jackson
He is now #5. With Wang, Detweiler and Gorzellany they have depth for the position. For a team with a payroll around $70M, $5M is a rather large investment for a pitcher that isn’t that good.
They have tons of incentive to move him.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Joseph Vincent Paterno 12/21/26 - 1/22/12 RIP Coach
Penn State Forever
That
And he may bring in a prospect. Noone to write home about but you never know.
by The Name is Dalton on Feb 3, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
The return on Lars right now...
…is probably set somewhere around a bag of baseballs.
What about Doubront?
That was my suggestion originally, though I’m not sure I want to spend the $5 million for Lannan’s salary… rather kick our offer to Roy up to $10 million and get it done already.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
I'd be okay with this
Doubront might end up a better pitcher than Lannan, but he sort of wore out his welcome here last ST.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
Yeah, but Ellsbury sort of wore out his welcome here in 2010...
…then earned it back last season. I’d almost rather have the guy who feels he has something to prove.
The challenge here, though...
… is that he had to prove himself last Spring Training to earn a spot in a full rotation, after a strong September 2010 performance. Instead, he showed up out of shape and overweight, ended up hurting himself and being unavailable when we needed starting pitching at the Major League level.
So, I don’t see the same ties to Ellsbury (who was injured going all out on a play and colliding with the brick wall we’d signed to play third, and rehabbed obsessively in the offseason to protect himself for 2011)…
Ellsbury’s work ethic, willingness to play hurt, and overall team chemistry were questioned in 2010, but they were unfair questions. He put those questions to rest with his performance in 2011. Doubront went into the offseason, coasted into Sprint Training, got hurt as a result of poor conditioning… if he didn’t have anything to prove last Spring Training, I find it hard to believe he’s going to prove it now.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
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