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Red Sox Fans Constructing "All-Fenway" Team

The Red Sox have created a website devoted to selecting the greatest Red Sox team of the Fenway era, a time period that is basically a Best of the Boston Red Sox over the last 100 years. The plan is to create a lineup (as well as top lefty and righty starter) from the rich history of the Red Sox as part of the 100-year anniversary of Fenway Park's opening.

This, of course, gives us an opportunity to discuss and debate the merits of those nominated for each position. As of February 23, voting opened for the first positions -- lefty and righty starting pitchers -- and will continue through February 26, so that's where we'll start. It's not clear if they are selecting a full rotation (although it doesn't seem like they are), but feel free to consider it that way at least in our comment section.

Now, my first inclination is to just pick whoever the Very Best player was at each position, but we've all got our own personal reasons for loving specific players from the Red Sox. Emotional ties are not inadmissible here: let's hear why you love any of these guys, whether it's because they are an all-time great or just a reason you loved baseball.

Star-divide

Here are the nominees, along with pertinent Boston-only years and statistics:

Left-handers Years IP ERA+
Ray Collins 1909-1915 1336 115
Lefty Grove 1934-1941 1539 143
Bruce Hurst 1980-1988 1569 102
Bill Lee 1969-1978 1503 110
Dutch Leonard 1913-1918 1361 129
Jon Lester 2006-2011 957 128
Mel Parnell 1947-1956 1752 125
Herb Pennock 1915-1922, 1934 1089 100
Babe Ruth 1914-1919 1190 125

The Red Sox have had some great left-handers over the years, but there's a clear top here if you're just looking at the numbers. Lefty Grove is a Hall of Famer who spent eight years with the Red Sox, and was, statistically, the most productive left-hander they have ever had. Jon Lester isn't done with his Boston career yet, but he's done well for himself, sitting third in ERA+ on this list. My personal pick here would go to Grove, because of just how ridiculously good he was with the Red Sox (he led the league in ERA and ERA+ in four of his eight seasons in town, even though he wasn't quite the strikeout pitcher of his youth anymore), but there are enough choices here that can be driven by both emotion and statistics for many fans.

Right-handers Years IP ERA+
Roger Clemens 1984-1996 2776 145
Dennis Eckersley 1978-1984, 1998 1371 109
Tex Hughson 1941-1949 1375 125
Jim Lonborg 1965-1971 1099 93
Pedro Martinez 1998-2004 1383 191
Bill Monbouquette 1958-2965 1622 107
Luis Tiant 1971-1978 1774 119
Tim Wakefield 1995-2011 3006 106
Smoky Joe Wood 1908-1915 1416 149

Roger Clemens, in terms of compiling, is the greatest Red Sox pitcher ever. He threw more innings for the Red Sox than anyone besides Tim Wakefield, and for all Wakefield's merits, he was never at Clemens' level. Clemens led the majors in ERA four times with Boston, took home three of his seven Cy Youngs, won his only MVP, and was already a Hall of Fame caliber arm before he ever left this city. He was ridiculously impressive during his 13 years with the Red Sox, but he had one fatal flaw: he wasn't Pedro Martinez.

Pedro wasn't in Boston as long as Clemens (seven years against 13). He didn't throw anywhere near as many innings -- just half as many -- didn't win nearly as many games, didn't strike out anywhere close to as any hitters with the Red Sox. But he was Pedro, and for anyone who saw him, that's enough. What he lacked in counting stats, he made up for in seven years of brilliance: Pedro's 191 ERA+ attests to this, as does his two-year stretch in 1999 and 2000 where he was 165 percent better by ERA than your average pitcher.

From 1998 through 2003, there wasn't another pitcher on the planet who could touch Pedro. There isn't one around now who can touch what he did then. He averaged 11 strikeouts per nine innings with the Red Sox, and in his "worst" campaign, he had an ERA+ of 125: better than the career Red Sox numbers for all but three of these righties.

Pedro was so good that I regret not being older when he pitched here, as I feel like I wasn't able to fully appreciate what he was doing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Clemens, but he's not Pedro, and that makes my vote easy.

What about you? Who's the top lefty and righty for you, and why?

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Clemens and Grove

As far as lefties are concerned, Grove is really the only choice. And as much as I loved Pedro, his star didn’t burn long enough to surpass Clemens, in my opinion.

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas

"To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong." – H. L. Mencken

by Lloyd Christmas on Feb 15, 2012 11:25 AM EST reply actions  

if I wasn't reading this on my phone

I would definitely rec this.

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by mmmmm on Feb 15, 2012 2:10 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

NEW OFFSEASON PLAN!

Sign Pedro! I don’t care if he doesn’t want to pitch! Make! He probably won’t be any better at this point than Padilla or whoeverthfuckelsethereis, but at least I’ll have that warm, happy I feeling I remember from having Pedro pitch.

by wolf9309 on Feb 15, 2012 11:41 AM EST reply actions  

Pedro. Pedro Pedro Pedro.

For pure awesome. For sentimentality. For, “What. So what. Who is Karim Garcia?” There can be only Pedro.

Lefty Grove seems like he should be the choice for LHP…but read this and then explain to me why it’s not Bill Lee:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/quotes/quobsl.shtml

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
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by Bloggy on Feb 15, 2012 12:06 PM EST reply actions  

this alone would get my vote
“I think about the cosmic snowball theory. A few million years from now the sun will burn out and lose its gravitational pull. The earth will turn into a giant snowball and be hurled through space. When that happens it won’t matter if I get this guy out.”

by wolf9309 on Feb 15, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Pedro & Grove

Pedro’s prime was so good, and so much better than the rest of the league at that time, that he deserves the vote as far as I’m concerned. I personally think Pedro has the best single-season (2000) and best 5+ season stretch in MLB history, and to me that is more than enough to get my vote.

…plus I f***ing hate Clemens.

by The Laser Show on Feb 15, 2012 12:13 PM EST reply actions  

They're close

But Pedro’s #‘s are better.
Pedro’s ERA+ for ‘99 thru ’03: 243, 291, 190, 202, 211
Big Units’ ERA+ for ’98 thru ’02: 136, 186, 181, 188, 197

Unit pitched A LOT more innings during his 5-yr span, so his WAR is higher, but just barely: Pedro – 36.2, Unit – 38.5

If you go by total value, I can see the argument for Big Unit…but just based on dominance over a 5-yr span, Pedro wins.

by The Laser Show on Feb 15, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll agree with you.

I feel that Maddux from 92 through 96 or 94 through 98 also needs to be considered.

You would have to give him the two most dominant consecutive seasons in 94 and 95 with an ERA+ of 271 and 262.

by upCHUCK on Feb 15, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Pedro and Lefty

Given time, Jon Lester may surpass Lefty’s numbers….but he isn’t in that league yet. He has a way to go to match that kind of productive and duration…

Pedro vs. Clemens….the way Roger left made it easy to forget how good he was for how long. Unfortunately, even at his best…I’d take Pedro over him. Roger was good to great over a long period of time…..Pedro was Untouchable over a 5 season stretch, and still good for a few more around that….

by A.T.K. on Feb 15, 2012 12:17 PM EST reply actions  

Pedro and Lester

Pedro is the greatest and in my mind will always stay the greatest. For a lefty I have to go with Lester; but that is mostly due to the fact he’s the only contemporary lefty on the list for me.

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by brogshan on Feb 15, 2012 12:18 PM EST reply actions  

I don't know if anybody caught this:

The Red Sox have drafted the most talent (measured via WAR) over the last ten drafts:

  1. Boston Red Sox — 100.3 WAR (4.36 WAR/player)

With Theo Epstein at the helm, the Red Sox became one of the most-effectively run organizations in Major League Baseball, and that extended to the draft. Since the 2002 season, the organization drafted one MVP (Dustin Pedroia) and one who perhaps should have been MVP (Jacoby Ellsbury). They drafted one of the best closers in baseball (Jonathan Papelbon), one of the best left-handed starters in baseball (Jon Lester), and one of the best set-up men in baseball (Daniel Bard). Boston doesn’t quite boast the overall depth of quality homegrown talent that San Francisco does, but the upper echelon is clearly the cream of the crop.

Original article: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/building-through-the-draft-best-of-the-best/

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/building-through-the-draft-worst-of-the-worst/

by frozendesert on Feb 15, 2012 1:04 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks, some good stuff there.

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas

"To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong." – H. L. Mencken

by Lloyd Christmas on Feb 16, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

As good as Clemens

was in his time with Boston, he was never as dominant as Martinez was 99 through 03. Grove is simply the best Sox left hander ever. Lester may get there but he hasn’t yet. My vote is Pedro and Lefty. But damn I want to pick Smokey Joe Wood just for his 1912 season. The man went 34-5 for 877 win% with an ERA of .191 with 35 complete games and 10 shutouts. His ERA+ was 176 with a whip of 1.015… dominating stuff

by jbrady29 on Feb 15, 2012 1:17 PM EST reply actions  

No contest

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=19983529&c_id=mlb

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=12025425&c_id=mlb

/debate

"We’re the Sox. Not Apple Sox. We ain’t no Barbeque Sox. We’re the Red Sox.’’ - David Ortiz

by L33to II on Feb 15, 2012 2:19 PM EST reply actions  

And this

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=11598323&c_id=mlb

"We’re the Sox. Not Apple Sox. We ain’t no Barbeque Sox. We’re the Red Sox.’’ - David Ortiz

by L33to II on Feb 15, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Grove/Pedro

Almost chose Lester, but this is an all century team for a reason.

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by Rogue Nine on Feb 15, 2012 9:23 PM EST reply actions  

Clemens should be kept well away from this

Pedro was so dominant and so much better that it’s actually hard to believe because of how good Clemens was in his glory days. I didn’t think there was another gear a pitcher could go to in Fenway…and then Pedro happened. Besides, fuck Clemens. I’d like to vacate his name from Red Sox history like a disgraced college program.

Lefties is actually tough for me. Grove was awesome by the numbers, but crazy Bill Lee has my heart. Just don’t know…

by Grasker564 on Feb 16, 2012 1:11 AM EST reply actions  

As much as I disliked the way he screwed Toronto by forcing a move to NY,

he didn’t leave Boston because he wanted to. The Duke pushed him out of town like yesterdays trash. I never faulted Roger for going to Toronto.

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas

"To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong." – H. L. Mencken

by Lloyd Christmas on Feb 16, 2012 1:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Screw this "best lefty, best righty" nonsense...

… a rotation has (ideally) 5 members: Pedro, Clemens, Grove, Wood Lester.

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by nuthinboutnuthin on Feb 16, 2012 4:29 AM EST reply actions  

I definitely have to put Cy Young in there for mine.

No doubt about. I know it was a different time period but he hardly ever walked anyone.

by The Name is Dalton on Feb 16, 2012 7:09 AM EST up reply actions  

The post does say greatest Red Sox team of the

Fenway era.

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas

"To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong." – H. L. Mencken

by Lloyd Christmas on Feb 16, 2012 7:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Now is this team going

to be playing with a DH? If not we may want to try the young Ruth guy as our lefty starter. But of course the answer should be Grove and Pedro based on their pitching abilities.

by AverageJoeEveryman on Feb 16, 2012 8:36 AM EST reply actions  

There better be a DH

Can’t imagine not having Ortiz on this team…

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
Look in the mirror and ask yourself: "Am I a hater troll?"

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Feb 16, 2012 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Williams/Foxx/Ortiz would be a devastating 3/4/5

"I can’t explain what I mean. And even if I could, I’m not sure I’d feel like it."
-JD Salinger.

by TheLoneDavid on Feb 16, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Left Field is gonna be a doozy of a choice.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
Look in the mirror and ask yourself: "Am I a hater troll?"

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Feb 16, 2012 11:19 AM EST reply actions  

All due respect to Yaz and Manny

I personally think Teddy Ballgame is far ahead of them both. Not miles ahead, but I just can’t pick either one of them over Ted.

by The Name is Dalton on Feb 16, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Not really

Ted is the best pure hitter the game has ever seen, and since it’s Fenway we don’t really have to consider defense.

C would be hard though.

"I can’t explain what I mean. And even if I could, I’m not sure I’d feel like it."
-JD Salinger.

by TheLoneDavid on Feb 16, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess by "doozy of a choice"

I mean that having to leave Manny and Yaz on the outside looking in will be hard, especially considering my MannLove.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
Look in the mirror and ask yourself: "Am I a hater troll?"

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Feb 16, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah that makes more sense

Is Lynn the only option in CF? Speaker only played 3 years in Fenway, and nobody else really sticks out.

"I can’t explain what I mean. And even if I could, I’m not sure I’d feel like it."
-JD Salinger.

by TheLoneDavid on Feb 16, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, no?

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
Look in the mirror and ask yourself: "Am I a hater troll?"

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Feb 16, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

You could put Yaz at 1st

He did play over seven hundred games at 1st in his career. And he is a lifelong Red Sox, unlike Foxx.

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas

"To every complex problem, there is an answer that is simple, easy to understand and wrong." – H. L. Mencken

by Lloyd Christmas on Feb 16, 2012 2:21 PM EST reply actions  

True....and that is where I personally remember him most, to be honest.

Jim Rice was playing the wall by the time I started watching (circa 1980)

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
Look in the mirror and ask yourself: "Am I a hater troll?"

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Feb 16, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

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