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Around SBN: Full Coverage of 2012 Coke 600

Pedroia vs Cano

I'll start up a Pedroia vs Cano debate and try to say something about some of the arguments usually made.

1. Cano has better offense

Simply not true. In his career, Pedroia has a 124 wRC+, Cano has 119. wRC+ should favor Cano more than most stats because a single is better than a walk in it, yet Cano still does worse. Using the way I use to figure out true talent, Pedroia's true talent wRC+ is 125, Cano's is 122.

2. Defensive stats rate Cano's range as not good, but he makes amazing plays

Fans can be decieved by amazing plays example: Derek Jeter, because a bette fielder would've gotten to the ball without having to make amazing plays. But the argument that Cano does make great plays does have some merit, as we can see He has .272 Out of zone plays per 9 innings for his career, Pedroia has made .252, but Cano just dosen't make the easy plays, he only makes 81% of the plays where the ball is in his zone, Pedroia makes 83.7%. That's a huge difference and as a result Pedroia is better at UZR, DRS, and TZL

3. Cano won a gold glove, below average fielders don't win gold gloves

Well Derek Jeter won 5 gold gloves and he was one of the worst shortstops of the generation, a little better than Yuni Betancourt. Matt Kemp won one last year.

4. Pedroia doesn't have even splits

you can't throw away half the equation, and park factors are much better than splits, wRC+ is park adjusted and Pedroia comes out on top.

5. Cano has had better seasons than Pedroia

Pedroia's best seasons have 8 WAR and 6.8 WAR, Cano's have had 6.5 WAR and 5.6 WAR.

6. Cano has more RBIs than Pedroia

I could go on and on and on about how stupid RBIs are, but according to baseball reference's baserunners scored%, Cano scores 16% of the runners on base, Pedroia scores 15%. Pedroia has a 106 wRC+ with men in scoring position and a 115 wRC+ with men on base. Cano has a 92 wRC+ with men in scoring position and a 101 wRC+ with men on base.

So that's about it, I would vote for Pedroia because his career WAR/650 PAs is 5.21, and Cano's is 3.6.

If you come with an argument for Cano, don't use any of the above arguments, if you think there's something wrong with one of the above arguments, post your criticism and why Cano is better, but don't use the same one most people use that I showed was wrong.

I'm going to repost this on pinstripe alley to see a different response.

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Someone on Pinstripe alley asked me

to do a Zobrist vs Pedroia vs Cano. Here’s the link I was very surprised with my initial conclusion

by Bososx13 on Feb 11, 2012 9:48 AM EST reply actions  

I think this is the fairest comparison.

Cano is completely overrated. Pedroia vs Zobrist is the real competition.

And how Cano ever won a gold glove is completely beyond me.

by d.russ on Feb 11, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I know it's cool to hate and all

But he HAS been worth more than 4 WAR for 4 of the of the last 5 seasons and has averaged 6 WAR over the last two. He’s an elite 2B. His defense may be overrated in press, but I tend to think its underrated in UZR, he’s probably in the middle of the spectrum between those two extremes. He’s a very good player in the same league as the other 2nd basemen in the AL East by value.

I am Sandy's bitch

We Are Because You Were
@WadePSU

by Rogue Nine on Feb 11, 2012 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

You're right, my "overratted" comment is a little hasty

but I do believe he is overratted in the press in comparison to the coverage and respect for Pedroia and Zobrist.

by d.russ on Feb 11, 2012 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think Zobrist is in Cano's

league.
Cano OPS, .871, .914, .882
Zobrist OPS, .948, .699, .822

You have to really buy into a huge ballpark differential to believe Zobrist is Cano’s equal.

I don’t.

by flasoxfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:20 PM EST up reply actions  

no you don't

hitting is not the only part of baseball, and OPS is not the best offensive measure

by Bososx13 on Feb 14, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

In a rare occasion, I agree with Bo here.

I’m talking about the entire game, from offense to defense to on the bases, Zobrist is in the discussion.

I am Sandy's bitch

We Are Because You Were
@WadePSU

by Rogue Nine on Feb 15, 2012 9:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I once saw Cano make two errors in an inning

Check out my blog at http://conor-soxrox.blogspot.com

by Conor Duffy on Feb 11, 2012 2:21 PM EST reply actions  

One or two years ago...

…I would have picked Cano hands down cause I thought Pedey would regress some. But now, I’d be happy to have either. A few notes:

1. From what I’ve read Cano at least turns a DP better doesn’t he?

2. You left out baserunning.

3. I don’t care very much about WAR and think Cano’s offense is being undersold, but on the other hand, I don’t care about using park effects or home/away splits either. Neither plays in a fantasy neutral park. Pedroia happens to play in Fenway and if that helps him, then it helps him. Those stats are real.

That’s about it. I don’t vehemently disagree with anything written. If Zobrist can put up another good year, I might pick him over both of them though.

by Dale Sams on Feb 11, 2012 3:38 PM EST reply actions  

In fact...

…I have the 7th out of 18th pick in my fantasy league this year and am thinking about going

7. Pedroia
29. Zobrist.

by Dale Sams on Feb 11, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

baserunning Cano has the very slight edge,

it’s only about 2 runs though. Cano turns the double play a tiny bit better, over his career it’s 4 runs. That’s less than a run per season

by Bososx13 on Feb 11, 2012 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay... Cano has the edge in baserunning by some advanced stat metric?

I’m having trouble figuring out how he runs the bases better than Pedey (who is smart on the basepaths, in addition to having a career success rate of just over 80%). Cano has been caught stealing almost as many times as he’s been successful.

I realize base stealing is just one component, but I’m having trouble reconciling how that big red flag on the base stealing side is overshadowed (and compensated for) by everything else the two of them do on the base paths.

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til THIS year!

by AlohaSox on Feb 20, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I think even adding baserunning could surprise you.

Not sure where to find the stats, but I do know (even as Joe Morgan on ESPN was saying that Pedey isn’t a base stealer a couple seasons ago… he steals bases, but he’s not a “base stealer” was the argument) Pedey’s baserunning is often underrated.

Pedey’s stolen 20 bases or more three times (three of the last four seasons, with the broken bone in his foot leaving him with 9 the other year)… his career stolen base % is 81% with 82 stolen bases to only 19 caught stealing (76% last year, when he stole 26 and got caught 8 times – unless I messed up the math somehow).

Of course, I took a quick look at Cano expecting to see some gaudy stolen base numbers… wait, Cano doesn’t steal bases?? 28 steals to 25 caught stealing, so barely over 50%?? Okay, maybe that’s the argument you were trying to make? Pedey is far and away a better baserunner, from what I’m looking at.

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til THIS year!

by AlohaSox on Feb 20, 2012 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

"That was good, but I don't think it was worth a trophy filled with pizzas

Maybe like, a cup, filled with beef jerky."

"I can’t explain what I mean. And even if I could, I’m not sure I’d feel like it."
-JD Salinger.

by TheLoneDavid on Feb 11, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions  

COOKIE!

C is for Cookie. That’s good enough for me!
C is for Cookie. That’s good enough for me!
C is for Cookie. That’s good enough for me!
OH! Cookie Cookie Cookie starts with C!

Author, Dawn of a New Age and The Blademaster
CO, USS Callisto
Avid Red Sox fan :)

by Rick Bentsen on Feb 12, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Jim Henson was just a better man than any of us are.

"I can’t explain what I mean. And even if I could, I’m not sure I’d feel like it."
-JD Salinger.

by TheLoneDavid on Feb 12, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It's really sad to me that they've had to limit the Cookie Monster on Sesame Street...

… treating his love of cookies as a bad addiction…

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til THIS year!

by AlohaSox on Feb 20, 2012 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Here’s the Fangraphs WAR graphs comparison of the two. Cano has two more full seasons than Pedroia (and about 1,200 PA’s) but even with that as you can see from the bottom two age graphs, Pedroia’s got him.

Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:10 AM EST reply actions  

Wow... that's a surprise too.

How did I overlook the idea that Cano came up a couple years before Pedey?

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til THIS year!

by AlohaSox on Feb 20, 2012 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course we know it matters to be a natural and Home stats don’t matter at all.

by Bososx13 on Feb 16, 2012 5:23 PM EST reply actions  

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