Jose Iglesias: Our Most Underrated Prospect
In February 2011, Fangraph's Marc Hulet named Jose Iglesias the Red Sox's #1 prospect and projected him as a future 4-WAR major league shortstop. For context, five shortstops produced a WAR of 4.x in 2011: Alexei Ramirez, JJ Hardy, Elvis Andrus, Yunel Escobar, and Erick Aybar. Only three shortstops in all of baseball produced higher WAR values than those five guys. In other words, Hulet projected Iglesias as a Top 5 to Top 10 shortstop in the MLB. In other, other words: Yes, please!
In December 2011, Hulet revised his prospect list for the Sox. Just nine months after naming Iglesias #1, Hulet placed him completely out of the top ten, noting that he "could be headed for a career similar to Cesar Izturis." For context, while Izturis did produce one freak 4-WAR season in 2004 (I'll come back to this season in a bit), that one year accounts for almost the entirety of his production as a player. He has rarely broken 1 WAR and has produced three negative WAR seasons. In his ten-year career, he's produced a TOTAL of 5.7 WAR. In other words: No, thank you.
What happened in those nine months to so limit Iglesias's value? The answer is simple: 380 AAA at-bats happened. Iglesias spent his 2011 minor league season hitting like a pitcher: .235/.285/.269. That's not a typo: He slugged .269. It's not hard to see why Hulet fell out of love, and I've seen similar sentiments in the comments here at OTM -- many of them even more negative than Hulet's. Considering it's almost time for OTM to revise its own prospect list, I wanted to take a moment to argue a position that may seem untenable considering the line I just quoted (did I mention he slugged .269 last year?). Nonetheless, here I go: Jose Iglesias is the most underrated prospect in the Red Sox system.
Mike Newman of Scouting the Sally has argued repeatedly that the most overlooked factor in prospect evaluation is age in relation to level. It's self-evident that we should judge a 25-year-old minor leaguer differently than a 22-year-old minor leaguer, but it's easy to lose sight of how important that age difference is when our favorite prospect starts slugging .269. Let's look at the average age of players at different levels of MiLB:
AAA: 28
AA: 24
A+: 22
A: 21
A-: 20
Rookie ball: 19
We have to be careful with that AAA value because many players in AAA are career minor leaguers as opposed to prospects, and we'd like, if possible, to always be comparing prospects to prospects. Nevertheless, and this is really the most obvious but also the most important point that I'm making: Jose Iglesias just completed his age 21 season. That abysmal .235/.285/.269 line was put up in a league where the average player was seven years his senior. Iglesias was even rushed to a major league call-up at a time when most of his contemporaries were playing A ball.
It's well-known that Theo Epstein's front office made it a kind of policy to challenge prospects by playing them above their level (see: Casey Kelly, 2010). Let's set aside the pros and cons of this and do a thought experiment. In 2010, in his age 20 season, Iglesias received 250 AA at-bats (again, a league whose players average 24 years of age) and hit .285/.315/.357. Let's imagine that rather than rushing him to AAA (and to the majors!) the following year, the Sox did the more typical thing and left him at AA. In fact, in his February 2011 rankings, Hulet guessed just that and assumed Iglesias would play another year in AA. Now, let's say with another year at the same level, Iglesias shows improvement in contact and pitch selection, but, to avoid being overly rosy, we'll say he doesn't get any stronger. So now we have a 21-year-old in AA who's widely considered one of the best defensive prospects in the game at a premium position hitting, let's say, .300/.330/.357. Are you moving that prospect out of the Top 10? Out of the Top 5? I think you'd have to be insane to do either.
You could argue with me here by saying that even my modest imagined improvement for him is unrealistic. Why should I expect him to improve his contact and walk rates when he shows so little offensive ability? The answer is that I would expect him to do it because he already has. That embarrassing AAA line masks a 2% improvement in his walk rate and an almost 6% drop in his K%. Despite the overly aggressive promotion, his pitch recognition markedly improved. His BABIP did drop significantly partly due to bad luck and partly due to his lack of power, but again: he was a raw 21-year-old playing well above his level.
So what do I think we should expect from Jose Iglesias, major leaguer? First, I should mention that Iglesias's offensive struggles are common for his position. It's simply incredibly hard to find shortstops who can do anything of value with the stick. The overall line for all shortstops in 2011 was only .258/.314/.370 (wOBA .303, wRC+ 88). Second, I should mention that I'm assuming Iglesias will be one of the top defensive shortstops in the game. I can't, of course, know this, but that's how it goes in prospect evaluation. Regardless, I have yet to find a single report of his defense that isn't glowing, and we've all seen the highlights. He's special with the glove.
I mentioned Cesar Izturis's 4-WAR 2004 season. That year, he hit .288/.330/.384 -- hardly out of reach for Iglesias --with a +14 fielding. Now, that's an insanely high defensive score. Alexei Ramirez topped the 2011 list with a +11.9 Fld. We can't expect +14 for Iglesias regularly, but it seems realistic to project him as a consistent +10. Let's stay on Alexei for a bit: he put up a lovely 4.9 WAR with that fielding score and a line of .269/.328/.399 -- hardly an offensive powerhouse. If you believe Iglesias's contact ability can keep him near .280-.300 with an OBP close to Alexei's and Izturis's and if you believe he'll be an elite defensive player, you've got a shortstop who's going to give you around 3.5-4.5 WAR per year, with adjustments as necessary based on whether he adds power (I think he will) and on his baserunning (which should be above average). There's no guarantees, of course. He could flop entirely. But players like Iglesias don't grow on trees.
To sum it up, Marc Hulet was perhaps right all along: Jose Iglesias may indeed become Cesar Izturis, only that's 2004 Cesar Izturis, one of the best shortstops in baseball. Iglesias may have been overrated to begin with, but he's now the most underrated player in our system.
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.330 is not a good OBP, especially in AA
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
Well, you implied that if he had a .330 OBP in AA he would still be in the top 10
I disagree.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 6, 2012 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
OK,
but he was in everyone’s Top 10, and many people’s #1 slot, after OBPing .315 in 2010. I don’t see how you could remove him from the Top 10 if he had improved on that OBP in 2011. Plus, I think I’ve shown that elite defensive shortstops can put up sizable WAR without much offense.
Of course, if he was NEVER in your Top 10 (I don’t know how you personally ranked him, obviously), then yes, a .330 OBP probably wouldn’t change your mind.
He was my #10 when we first got him
I was never a big fan.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 7, 2012 12:44 AM EST up reply actions
Solidly stated.
Here’s hoping that his age 22 season at AAA sees some of the improvement we didn’t see when he didn’t play a second season at AA.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
He's going to have to show a lot this year for me to consider him a part of our future.
Two years, too many excuses for a player that already had enough questions surrounding his entrance to the league. He’ll be 22 next year, I’d say that’s about the age of other players who are considered to be MLB prospects in AAA, if he doesn’t put together something resembling a plate approach, I don’t think he’ll amount to much.
My current projection of him is a guy that hangs in the pros, usually putting up 1-3 WAR a year depending largely on his UZR and then in one or two years he’ll find some BABIP help, post a .330wOBA with his defense and run up 4 or 5 WAR before returning back to relative mediocrity.
I hope he beats it, but, I don’t have much to grasp onto to be helpful.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Penn State Forever
I hope whoever is our GM at the time is smart enough to flip him when he gets that BABIP help.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
I made my case for him the post, so I won't try much to convince you here
But for what it’s worth, I’ll just point out again that he was a cuban teenager who defected from the Cuban JUNIOR team and then got rushed inexplicably to AAA as a 21-year-old — I don’t understand how that’s “too many excuses.” He needs more time and he should get it.
Again, the average MLB shortstop hit 258/.314/.370 — if he can match or beat that and play elite defense, he’ll be so much more valuable than a “relative mediocrity.”
OK, I AM trying to convince you. I won’t say anything else :)
Thank you Jake for bringing us beyond raw #s.
That he was a very raw And very young prospect goes without saying. That he worked diligently to compete wayyy above age level, experience level, and as a Spanish speaking teenager from Cuba alone in aggressively English speaking USA, while continuing to improve says alot more than short term MiLB stats. That he missed a large % of development time to date due to injury hasnt helped forward progress, but he improved anyway. He was not only pushed into AAA at age 21 vs. the most major league ready talent in the system, he was pushed into that HUGE AA jump at age 20 vs. 24 year olds, and did well enough to keep moving him up. These are not excuses, not that he is a person who makes them, or needs to make excuses to
anyone here. Rather, in terms of the uneven development of any prospect at any level, they are legitimate attempts to understand Iglesias’ progress. With the relentless offensive production of this team as composed, and the contributions that Lavarnway, Middlebrooks, CC, maybe Sweeney will add, having one of the best gloves in baseball at SS is a greater assett than one of the best bats, even if his OBP never reaches .330. The best offense in baseball didnt get to the postseason AGAIN. The best defense would have made a difference. Having hit well at an underaged 20 in AA should surely give this kid some slack,’especially considering he is exactly the defensive wizard we need in that IF. He remains in my top 10 and the Sox SS of the immediate future.
by GerryT on Jan 7, 2012 2:53 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Hey, 4 WAR or 3 WAR or whatever WAR...
As long as he’s a productive SS, and he actually is our mainstay SS… I won’t care what he does as long as he’s what one would call “decent”
The Red Sox suck, and I am the dirt that was sucked in, I am a dirty.
I'm narcissistic, nihilistic, and arrogant. That's me in a nutshell.
I think the Sox screwed his development
based upon the fact that he has a “ML-ready” glove. By rushing him to the upper minors based upon his glove alone they have not given him opportunity to develop his bat and now he’s cast in a much different light. It’s going to be an uphill climb from now on for Jose but I still think he can have some value at least in the trade market
I worry that you are right
I intentionally glossed over this point in my post when I said “Let’s set aside the pros and cons [of Epstein’s policy of challenging prospects]” because it’s a whole other issue…but yes, I do think it’s possible they did long-term harm to Iglesias by rushing him. I think the Padres might find the same thing with Casey Kelly, who I believe only struck out 6 per 9 last year in the minors following his brutal season after being similarly rushed by Epstein.
But let’s hope that’s not the case! And let’s hope they don’t overly rush everyone’s current favorite prospect, Xander Boegarts.
People complained about this all the time with Buchholz
and Bard, the Red Sox philosophy works, they push people to make them struggle, I hope they push Bogaerts, to make him improve. They wanted Iglesias to improve his walk rate and he did. The Red Sox don’t care about BA propsect rankings, and their way seems to work better than almost every other team’s
Props to Jose for raising his walk rate from atrocious to merely bad.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Penn State Forever
Right, that's why we have all of these awesome rookie players in the bigs to help us out right now.
Oh, wait.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
Buchholz and especially Bard were polished college players
Iglesias wasn’t even in the “majors” in Cuba; he was a junior player known for being raw at the plate who was pushed to AAA at an insanely fast rate. Then, as if that wasn’t bad enough, had his development further halted by being pushed to the majors.
There’s no right or wrong binary here—something rushing players works, sometimes it doesn’t. Considering Iglesias’s rawness coming into American pro ball and his results in AAA, there’s reason for concern that his story will fall on the “doesn’t work” spectrum. But considering I’m the one who wrote this fanpost, I’m obviously hopeful that he’s still going to be a major contributor down the line.
I've been thinking
With Epstein gone, do you think Cherington starts Iglesias back in Portland?
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
I doubt it
Guys who were really the farm system guys, like Mike Hazen and Allard Baird are still there- as well as Cherington. I just doubt it was Theo’s unilateral decision to promote him so aggressively
Hindsight has 20-20 vision, etc.
and certainly some prospects are ready and able to make huge leaps, arguably like Ells, maybe Harper, but I wonder how many have been damaged by being pushed through the system to meet needs at Fenway. Certainly Iglesias and Bowden, maybe Hansen, Masterson, Reddick off the top of my head. That would be an interesting piece, though tough to substantiate.
by GerryT on Jan 7, 2012 1:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm going out on a large limb here
and saying that Bowden will be the surprise contributor this year
It's mega possible.
He’s been good at AAA for how many years now?
If they perform to near potential
Bowden, ( striking out the side in sbort stints) and an in shape & hungry Doubront (is it really foolish to see him as a better #4-5 than Cook.or Silva?) and an equally hungry Tazawa, could wind up as key elements of this contending team. All have had their development delayed for various reasons and all rebounded well in 2011 against expectations. A year older, they are more mature, more prepared, and more desperate (options) to succeed, a good combination for McClure to work with. Pleasant surprises for real.
I really, really, really hope
That two of those guys at least turn into contributors. Pitching as a whole (in my opinion) will be end up being what this team lives or dies by. I just can’t see this offense struggling over the whole season with the bats they have.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 11, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
My money is on Tazawa being the pleasant surprise of the year
And pleasant surprise number two I think will be Bobby V not being as horrible as people think
My pleasant surprise of the year:
We actually make it to the playoffs.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
I think Tazawa will be it too.
He really seemed to be doing better post TJ. He’s ML ready at this point and I think I may rather see him in the #5 spot rather than Aceves.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Penn State Forever
But he has options
while Doubront, Bowden, Atchison, Miller do not. Of those, Doubront would be a good #5 Cant see them having 3 lefties in the pen. So Tazawa, Wilson, Jenks and the depth signings will probably not break camp for Detroit but be ready when needed.
well yeah, I agree he's probably not gonna start in the #5 spot
but at the same time, as we’ve seen, not starting the year with the team doesn’t mean you won’t have a significant contribution by the end.
We have tons of good young pitching, which is likely to fill out the rotation.
But none of it is proven.
This post and comments suddenly have greater significance!
With Marco and the Jedi gone, and Aviles/Punto getting ready to play SS, if the Sox don’t do a weird maneuver for Theriot or whomever, the progression of Jose Iglesias could be critical. IMO even if his bat improves only marginally through, say June 15, in AAA, he will be rushed again and need to finish his development at FenwY, providing plus defense and shoring up the left side.

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