Responding To Rumors: Trading Kevin Youkilis For Pitching Is Probably Not Possible
by Matthew Kory on Jan 6, 2012 7:00 AM EST
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PrintAfter September everyone thought the Red Sox needed pitchers. Lots and lots of pitchers. Good pitchers, bad pitchers, mediocre pitchers, or ice tea pitchers. Considering the way last season ended, any kind of pitcher the organization could get their hands on would do. But, so the story went, the Red Sox would have to give up something in order to receive one or more of these fabled pitchers. Makes sense, but what could they give up?
Well, hmmm... they can't trade any pitchers on their roster because that would defeat the whole purpose. They can't deal Adrian Gonzalez or Carl Crawford (much as we might want them to), and they won't deal Jacoby Ellsbury or Dustin Pedroia. You can probably see where this is going. Or you could just read the title. Either way, the idea was that, with a year at $12 million left on his contract (plus a $13 million club option with a $1 million buy-out), the Red Sox third baseman was a marketable player, and could be dealt to fill the club's most glaring need.
There is something to it. Youkilis does have value, both because of the length of his contract and because of his production over the past five seasons. Yet, there are a few problems with the idea.
First, if you trade Youkilis for pitching, who plays third base? Maybe the idea made more sense back when Jed Lowrie was still on the team, but even if you love Lowrie like Brick Tamland loves lamp, there is a substantial difference between Youk and Lowrie. Now that Lowrie isn't on the team, the options are even less appealing. Mike Aviles, for all the love Marc Normandin showers him with (obscure DVDs, vintage pez dispensers, unlimited packets of Capri-Sun) playing him at third regularly would likely produce a worse result than would playing Lowrie. That result would be a rash of TVs with large projectiles embedded in their screens all over the NESN viewing area.
So, dealing Youk for pitching means you also have to find a third baseman. Unless the plan was to sign Aramis Ramirez and watch him decay at third ah-la Mike Lowell, this would have to be a single part of a multi-part plan. Something like this:
Step 1: Trade Youk for pitching.
Step 2:
Step 3: Pennant
Secondly and most importantly, Youkilis isn't worth what you think he's worth. This isn't to say he hasn't been a terrific player for the Red Sox. He has been. But trade value comes from something more than what the player has done over the past few seasons. It comes from past production, but only so far as it predicts future production. So, young players who play well are likely to improve and thus have lots of trade value. Older players are likely to get worse, injuries become more likely, and there is always the possibility they'll fall off the cliff entirely.
Youkilis will be 33 years old this coming season. He's due at least $13 million (twelve plus at least the buy-out) next year and he's never played 150 games in a season. He hasn't played over 140 in any of the last three, and hasn't beaten 120 in the last two. There is a not-so subtle trend here. Youk's plate appearances dropped every single year between 2006 and 2010. There was an uptick last season (435 to 517) but the danger is that Youk's body is breaking down. The term for that is 'suppressed value.'
Andrew Bailey's trade value emanates from his age and the fact that he is under team control for three more seasons in addition to his talent on the mound. Had he been a 33 year old reliever with funky home/road splits coming off two seasons of 40 innings pitched, Ben Cheringon would have hung up the phone before Billy Beane could finish saying, "Reddick."
With three All Star teams and two top six finishes in the MVP voting, Youkilis has had an incredible run in Boston and it might not be over yet. But there is a fair bit of wishcasting going on if you think he is the guy who will net you a Gio Gonzalez, Matt Garza, or Mat Latos. Zack Greinke ain't happening either.
Garza of course hasn't been traded this off season, but if you look at the hauls received in the Gonzalez and Latos deals from this off season and the Greinke deal from last off season you'll quickly notice that nobody received in those deals was over the age of 25 except Edison Volquez who was 27.
That's what it will take to acquire a decent, young starter. Younger cost controlled talent, and more than you or I or apparently the Red Sox am comfortable parting with. Jeff Francis is available for nothing but money. So are Joe Saunders and Rich Harden and Paul Maholm. For the proverbial young and good starter the price is going to be younger players with cost controlled years in return. A 33 year old third baseman with a laundry list of injuries and $13 million due to him just isn't going to cut it.
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Put another way...
There’s a saying that in baseball, or sports in general, “you don’t trade players, you trade contracts.” At $13M, Youk’s contract may be reasonable for his level of production, but it’s certainly not a screaming value. With his age and injury history, there is also risk in the contract. Not as much risk as a double A prospect of course, but enough that it is a factor that has to be considered.
Given this, Youk’s contract isn’t valuable enough to get the contract of a reasonably priced top-tier pitcher or even mid-tier pitcher in return. Again, because we’re talking about contracts here, if there were a slightly overpaid, mid-tier pitcher out there to be had, the value may line up. I’m not sure that there are any of those out there that are worth getting excited about, especially since, as pointed out, it just creates another problem for the Sox by creating a hole at third base that would need to be filled.
Youkilis's value as a 1B is much higher than his value as a 3B
He is a 33 year old third baseman only because we stuck him there. He’s supposed to be a 33 year old first baseman. If a team has a hole at first and could use a short term solution at a reasonable contract…Youk’s the man. The guy is a freakin’ game-changer.
Who that is, I dunno.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
The Brewers.
Potentially also the Marlins, but they don’t have anyone we’d want or could get.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 6, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
He's suggesting as a first baseman
though I seem to remember them saying after they signed Aramis that they had already spent more than they intended to this offseason- so stretching it for Youk seems unlikely.
perhaps a more reasonable solution
would be to trade Youk for a cheaper (less good) third baseman plus a prospect or two and use the excess money to actually afford a decent free agent pitcher.
But then, in practice, I can’t think of who a trade like that would actually make any sense for. Prado or Daniel Murphy? Not sure either of those teams makes any sense for Youk. Polanco? That would certainly downgrade the Sox offense quite a bit, while getting older and probably not gaining any more games from our third baseman.
I dunno, it’s a decent idea in theory, but probably doesn’t work at all in practice. Plus, I’d miss yelling “yoooooooouuuuuuuuuuukkkkkk”
Texas and Boston
Texas does not have a regular 1st baseman. They use Moreland and Young. If they don’t sign Fielder,(and they should),Youk and a prospect might bring David Murphy and Uehara. Youk improves their defense at 1st while Young DH’s.
Murphy hits LH but would love to have him. Uehara improves the pen,making Bard and/or Aceves departure to the rotation more bearable.
Another idea for Texas would be Matsui. He was horrible in the first half in Oakland, but really picked it up in the 2nd,proving he can still hit. He could be dangerous as a part of a DH platoon,in that ballpark. He would be cheap,and could platoon with Moreland.
I can see NY picking up Matsui. He could take Posada’s role as DH,while Montero backs up Martin. Jones could be the RH part. Another thing I would hate to see happen. Damon back in pinstripes as part time DH and backup outfielder. The Yankees quiet winter is scary.
FA’s still out there that could help. Trever Miller and Wheeler, as specialists, only, or Luis Ayala.
Kuroda is the only starter left who could make an impact,IMO.
Murton. Bring him back. He could be had cheaply and might be a diamond in the rough,platooning with Sweeney. Numbers show that Sweeney shouldn’t face LHders. He might be an upgrade over D-Mac. Or, sign Murton and keep D-Mac around to spell CC or Ellsbury.
Texas & Boston
It would make sense why Texas could use Youk, but we’ve done a good job of fortifying our pen. At this point, if we trade you we really need starting pitching.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
If Bard and Aceves end up in the rotation,they are still one reliever short,because of Papelbon’s departure
Are you content with having both Bard & Aceves in the rotation?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Not Really
I would prefer to leave well enough alone. Both of these pitchers are amongst the best in what they do. I still believe is a deep quality pen. When you get into extra inning games,ussually the best pen wins. Kuroda is still out there,and Garza could be aquired. Larry has mentioned that he might have to exceed what they had hoped to spend. I hope he will.
I guess my point is
that even the Red Sox seem to only plan on putting one of the two in the rotation (sweet Jesus, if they have to put someone in there…just have it be one!). They don’t plan to fill both slots with Ace/Bard.
So we need a starter, not another reliever.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Bard
As much as it scares me to take Bard out of his setup role, I think he would be the better bet then Aceves for the rotation. At least, as the first experiment
My thoughts on Bard in the rotation are well documented.
And, for this discussion…irrelevant.
The point is that the trade with Texas wouldn’t work unless we got one of their starters.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
if the Rangers sign Darvish
they DO have quite a plethora of starters they could spare. At the same time, I’m not sure that they’d have the money available after that. Maybe if Darvish falls through they would prefer to go after someone like Youk than to pursue Fielder? That seems unlikely though.
Why would we want Murphy and Uehara?
If we’re sending guys to Texas I want Matt Harrison or Derek Holland.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 6, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
But getting Uehara and Murphy makes no sense
at. all.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
Well I agree in principle
especially as I’m not sure that Murphy does anything better than Sweeney, but I should say that if the price difference made it possible to sign a an Oswalt or Kuroda that we could not otherwise afford, that would be a better team. I think in any case that Youk has more value than that (and I don’t think he has tons of trade value)
Although Uehara is a player I would be freaking thrilled if the Sox could get their hands on. We’d have a pretty awesome bullpen locked up for years to come. Just not in that deal.
actually, I take that part about wanting Uehara back
forgot he has that stupid contract clause where he can elect free agency.
Murphy and Uehara
Murphy is one of the best 4th outfieders in the game. What if Crawford never gets it back? What if Ellsbury gets hurt again? What if Sweeney gets hurt. Uehara struck out over 50 and walked less then 10 with a very low ERA,and has done it for two years running. They still need more quality and depth in the pen. I would rather have an effective reliever then a mediocre starter. If you can get something better for Youk, do it Otherwise, keep him.
They don't need anyone else in the pen.
They need two starting pitchers. That’s it. If you get two starting pitchers, then the team is complete, Bard goes to an already very strong bullpen. I would much rather have a mediocre starter than any sort of reliever because starters, by definition, provide more value than relievers.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 7, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Aceves
As long as Aceves stays in the pen,it should be enough, depending on who the 4th and 5th guys are.
If they can get someone like Garza,allowing Bard to stay in the pen, then its a really good pen. I get your philosophy. You don’t put much stock in relief pitchers. Just can’t see how a below average starter is worth more then an above average reliever,no matter what the current need is.
.The Cubs could use Youk, either at 1st or 3rd. Theo knows what Youk brings to the table. Their salarys pretty much cancel each other out. Would you trade Youk and a prospect for Garza?
A top flight RP who pitches a ton will give you 80-100 innings in a season.
A mediocre starter gives you 130-150 innings.
Therefore, a mediocre starter ends up completing more innings, providing less need for your bullpen to help prevent the overuse we saw collapse our very good bullpen in September 2011.
A quality #4 SP (Kuroda/Oswalt/Maholm) is not a mediocre guy in that spot, and leaves Bard/Aceves competing for the #5 spot with the guys we signed on the minor league deals. Whichever one doesn’t make the rotation ends up back in the bullpen (hopefully, Aceves, since that long relief role was the only bright spot in September… he was ridiculous down the stretch pitching nearly every day).
We have absolutely no need for another bullpen arm if we can sign a true #4 starter. If we get two starters?? Bard and Aceves make our pen absolutely dominant.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
how do u know they will be mediocre?
not to mention all they have said is bard and aceves prepare to start and for spring training will be a test and see what happens i do think one of them sticks in rotation probably bard who has the stuff to start just needs the mental makeup to do it.
I think what he needs more than mental makeup
is arm durability.
My biggest question about him as a starter always has been, and will continue to be for a while, how will the effectiveness of his repertoire change when his fastball loses a couple of mph? Certainly he has a nasty slider and an improving changeup, but when everyone isn’t looking for 100 MPH, are they as effective?
In Hindsight
They may have been better off re-signing Beltre,allowing Youkilis to remain on 1st,and forgoing Gonzalez. More money would have been available this year. And, as good as Ortiz was last year,letting him go and re-signing Martinez would have improved clubhouse chemistry with V-Mart upbeat presence instead of Papi’s ego. With Youk back on 1st, V-Mart could have spelled him, and/ or, platooned with Salty at catcher,as well as DHing..
What they really should have done is re-sign Beltre
and traded Youk, so then they could have acquired something of value at the time, or fortified the farm system so this year they could have made a bigger trade for a SP. They were going to either sign or trade for Gonzalez.
Yes and they also should have signed Matt Holliday and Cliff Lee
Instead of Carl Crawford and John Lackey. What are ya gonna do?
What I was pointing out is that hindsight is 20/20.
Every team makes mistake, and you could make a case that not re-signing Beltre and moving Youk when they still could get some value for him was a big mistake.
At the time, Youk was an absolute beast and our best player.
It’s not surprising that they didn’t trade him. But when you consider the fact that Holliday/Lee have roughly the same contracts as Crawford/Lackey, you start to cry.
boy genius
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I also feel like Bay wouldn't have fallen off a cliff had he signed here.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 7, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
heh remember when paying $66 million for him
seemed like far too much?
Oh Crawford, I really hope you play well.
He'll never have the value he had in Tampa
he’s the wrong type of player being shoehorned into the worst possible situation for him.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 7, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Not So Sure About Bay
He was at the top of his game when let go,and suffered a now recognized serious injury that might not have happenned had he been here. The park in NY didn’t help, either.
If I read that correctly, you and TLD just agreed on something.
Bay staying in Boston might have resulted in a better LF situation than we have today.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Not that that's hard to do
We could probably run you out there and get better results.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
agreed
but there is a bit of hindsight there, he was terrible with the A’s
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
He wasn't that bad with the A's
and it was greatly park-adjusted, as I understand it.
I was a bit apprehensive given the dollar amounts I THOUGHT were available. Given that we ended up shelling out as much as we did for Lackey and then again plus more for Crawford…I’d be all over that now.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Sabathia
would have been nice,too.. Don’t think they ever considered it. CC has won 40 games with NY so far. Don’t think they thought about Lee or Holiday either. If they had made serious attempts to sign any of these players, we would have heard about it. Why would Theo and/or Larry, not be interested in these guys? They ended up overpaying for Lackey and giving Crawford more then Holiday got. What a shame.
The Sox FO
is notoriously close-to-the-vest, so I’m not convinced that we would have heard about it one way or another.
But…definitely a shame.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Theo wasn't all that great towards the end. obviously.
But at least the Sox are really good, also obviously.
Both of these points are very accurate.
Obviously.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
My Hindsight is 20/20 too
I was of the mind that the Sox should have let Papi go last off-season and use the $$$ on keeping Beltre. Use Youk as DH instead and he could have spelled both Beltre and Gonzalez. If they could have retained Vmart as well, that would have been a killer offense, but I truly believe VMart’s heart was elsewhere (not that he didn’t play his heart out with the Sox, just that he preferred to be elsewhere). But, that’s all hindsight and we’ll never know now…
by Rockhopper214 on Jan 6, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Can't Argue With That
As much as I love Gonzalez,and hope his power will improve,Beltre and V-Mart would have been cheaper,while Youk might have remained healthier at 1st or DH. Giving Papi 15 million this year is tough,when we don’t know when he may fall off a cliff.
"When we don't know when he may fall off a cliff"
I resent this slightly. David Ortiz is one of the greatest hitters of all time. He just isn’t going to fall off a cliff. I think your feelings are residual from the 08-09 early season debacles.
And despite the horrible starts he had...
… he finished both of those years with respectable numbers.
Considering how pathetic Carl looked with a similarly poor start to 2011, despite hitting well the rest of the year, it’s a reminder of how hot Big Papi got those summers to post his final numbers.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I wouldn't say Crawford hit well the rest of the year
he hit well for a bit of it, badly for a decent bit, and OK for a lot of it.
IMO
One of the best things about this alternative world is it means the Sox keep Rizzo, and he has a legit chance to take 1B. Then the AGon money gets used for whatever else. Ellsbury extension.
by dennet on Jan 9, 2012 7:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The best thing about that alternative world
is we probably don’t sign Carl Crawford.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
Youk for Matt Harrison?
Don’t know that this is something the Red Sox would even consider, esp. with no ready options at third base (Aviles/Punto for 3-4 months and then Middlebrooks?). But the Rangers currently have six designated starters, assuming Darvish signs: Holland, Darvish, Lewis, Feliz, Harrison, Ogando.
by UltimateCranston on Jan 6, 2012 10:16 AM EST reply actions
Would Love That Trade
While Youkilis should have two to three more good seasons left,it makes sense for both teams. Harrison is a comer,and a 4th starter they need. As you said,3B can be covered by Aviles and Punto, but I would add Wilson Betimet to that mix.
I think the Red Sox are waiting to see if Darvish signs.
They’ve been connected to a bunch of starters, but if Darvish fails to sign, that puts the Rangers in desperate position for a Starter. WIth the Rangers farm system, they can acquire any SP they want through trade, or they could turn around and sign a Jackson, or Oswalt. If Darvish signs, Harrison becomes available and takes the Rangers out of some of the trade possibilities for starters, and adds them to the be willing trade a SP list.
by aubatron2011 on Jan 6, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure I quite follow the logic here.
If Darvish doesn’t sign, then the Rangers are short a starting pitcher and need to sign one or trade for one. If he does sign, they suddenly have an extra SP?
Does Darvish somehow count as two pitchers?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Well they wouldn't have bid on him if they didn't think he'd help.
They clearly think Yu was the best pitcher on the market. If he fails to sign, they would probably look at Fielder for First Base, and use a couple of chips to acquire Garza or turn around sign a starter. If Darvish does sign, they don’t sign Fielder, and the pitching market gains an available SP.
jeez, if they really sign Fielder and get Garza
they’ll have matched what the Angels did
And the problem is?
Don’t mean to be sarcastic,but the Angels are trying to win. After hearing the details of Albert’s contract, it was pretty creative. Just like the Sox, they were one good starting pitcher short of having a superior starting four. Unlike the Sox, they did something about it.
Also unlike the Sox, they started at a much lower Payroll limit than we did going into the offseason.
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 8, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Did the Angels overtake our 2012 payroll?
I mean, since Robert is clearly upset that we don’t have the #1 payroll in all of baseball (frankly, I hope we never catch the Yankees on that score)… did the Angels leap over us for 2012, and drop us to 5th?
I still have trouble understanding anyone that complains about how much money the Sox ownership spends when it’s in the top 5 in the league. I think the Yankees, Phillies and Angels are ahead of us now. Marlins 2012 payroll? Who else am I missing?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
their rotation as it stands now
(not in order): Harrison, Ogando, Holland, Feliz, Lewis? That sounds like 5. I think they’re pursuing Darvish because they think he’s a reallllly good starter, not because they have a desperate need for one.
Rangers
Don’t know if this fits in with the discussion, but Texas has lost Cliff Lee and C.J. Wilson,the last two offseasons. That’s a lot of talent.Teams that win consecutive pennants,and trying for a third, can’t keep losing players of that ilk. Losing Wilson to the Angels is almost like losing two players. Now,they have lost Darrin Oliver. They are taking their best closer,(Feliz) and putting him in the rotation. If they sign Darvish,(and I think they will) they may put Feliz back in the pen. Adams, Uehara,and Oganda are not closers.You might see them bring Mike Gonzalez back as the lefty. My question is,will they sign Darvish and leave Feliz in the pen, or will they sign Madson and continue with the plan of Feliz starting? Madson would be a lot cheaper then Darvish.
At 1st, Carlos Pena might hit 40, playing in that park. He could be a wild card for the Rangers. A one year deal at 10 million,with Napoli or Moreland playing against lefties. Obviously cheaper then Fielder. This team could be scary. Can they make it three in a row? If so, they will need to ake a couple more moves. The last team to do it were the ‘98,’99,00 Yankees.
Keep in mind they have Nathan as well
And I bet if it came to it and Nathan isn’t pitching well, that they’d be willing to give Adams a shot at the closer job. They sound pretty set on getting Feliz a chance to start- and I think they have enough flexibility with the pitchers on their team to be able to put together a decent rotation with or without him, should he fail at it
My guess is that they move Ogando
They want to see how Feliz is as a starter. Ogando did well as a starter in the beginning and faded in August before being put back in the pen. As a 2-pitch guy he actually profiles for the bullpen pretty well and could be a fireman-Aceves type guy (which we now know the importance of).
Hanrahan, Drew Storen, Kimbrel, Walden, and a few others weren’t “closers” until this past year either.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 9, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
move Ogando to the bullpen, that is.
Of course, if they don’t trade someone.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 9, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
The Rangers have 5 starters right now.
Getting Darvish would push them to 6.
Right
But not signing him leaves them with five…which is why this portion of your post might have thrown Aloha off. If they already have five then I wouldn’t say it was a desperate need.
but if Darvish fails to sign, that puts the Rangers in desperate position for a Starter.
Personally, I think they went after Darvish because they see him as being (possibly) a game-changing talent that they may be able to acquire for just money (no prospects). Not only that, but if they can’t sign him then they basically block him from being on a competitor for this year (assuming they give him what is deemed a “good faith deal”).
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 6, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
Ok. Maybe I shouldn't have said desperate.
But getting the Rangers out of the SP market by signing Darvish would only benefit the Red Sox.
Yup... the desperate for a starter was why I was confused.
I couldn’t see why failing to get Darvish would push them to try to acquire one of the guys we’re chasing, but landing him would put them in the market to trade one of their guys.
Either they have five guys they want in the rotation now (and Darvish makes one of them tradeable), or they only have four now (and not getting Darvish means they have to find one). Just not both.
So, to my eyes, they have five now and getting Darvish gives another potential trading partner out there.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
As I said desperate was a bad word to use.
But a failure to land Darvish might spring them to sign or trade for another starter, even though they have five already. The old addage you can’t have enough pitching, which we found out the painful way last year. It doesn’t sound like there won’t be a deal, and that’s beneficial to the Red Sox in two ways, it opens up a potential trade partner, and it takes a team with money and prospects out of the market for a starter.
by aubatron2011 on Jan 6, 2012 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, a piece of me wondered whether some teams might have bid on him...
… and bid big, since he’s already said he wouldn’t leave Japan if there was a huge posting fee, since he doesn’t like the posting system… particularly to keep him away from their competitors.
So, if they get him on a good deal, great… if they don’t, it doesn’t cost them any money, but he doesn’t go to one of their competitors. Right?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I am not sure where anyone sees value in trading Youk
The Red Sox signed Nick Punto in large part because he is a great glove at 3rd (and throughout the infield really). If Youk stays health he gets 550-600 AB with some DH time and in that time he gives you .380-.400 wOBA and doesn’t kill you on D, when he is not at third the defense gets a bump and in aggregate you get plus defense and plus offense. His trade value isn’t going to be much when teams are still able to consider Fielder, and cheaper FA options like Carlos Pena, Derrek Lee and Casey Kotchman. You might be better, but he isn’t cheap and he is an injury risk.
If the Red Sox really need to make a trade it should be Middlebrooks at this point. As talented as he is, he will not be ready to start 2012, even best case scenario you are seeing a majority of PA from one of Nick Punto or Mike Aviles at 3B next year. 2013 will likely be his first full rookie season, so it would be totally unrealistic to expect much above league average total production. His trade value is never going to be higher and he could reasonably net us a pitcher like Jonathan Niese, or Gavin Floyd, we should really consider it. Third base has good depth in our system and when Youk’s contract is done, David Wright and Ryan Zimmerman could both be available, if not earlier in trade. The odds are that they get better production out of a pitcher and Youk/Punto/Aviles over the next two years than Middlebrooks and whatever Youk could bring us. After two years, we should have other options as well.
That’s not to say that we are desperate for starting pitching either. Keeping both Youk and Middlebrooks and just signing a Malholm or a Francis (or both) isn’t that bad an idea either.
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Youk's injury risk is far greater at 3B than 1B where he also provides a plus glove.
In three years, he’s still a capable 1B and can shift to DH easily if a better fielding 1B arrives. Dustin’s close, but I don’t think we have a more entertaining at bat than Youk.
In essence, I kind of disagree in that I see him as eminently tradable, but I’d really rather just keep him as our 3B.
Yup... this is why I've been saying it for a while.
I don’t want to trade Youk, I just think a team out there that lost the Pujols/Fielder sweeps might see the value of Youk at 1B (where he put up those two top six MVP performances) as a consolation prize.
I also think it’s the best thing for Youk’s career… I don’t think his body takes the same beating at first base, and he might be more productive the next two seasons there, and get a better payday when he hits FA.
If someone like the Rangers would trade us Harrison, or someone from the Brewers, or even someone from the Cardinals?
Of course, if we keep him… I hope to hell he can stay healthy at third base.
Someone remind me… how old was Mike Lowell when he was thrown into the Beckett deal as a “salary dump” and went on to be the World Series MVP?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Keeping Youk
You can’t go wrong by keeping him. He is still one of the better all around hitters in the game,with OPS,pitches seen,etc.It would make sense to keep him untill Zimmerman or Wright becamevavailable,or Middlebrooks emerges.
When do you trade Youk
if and only if it (a package involving Youk) brings back a chaper, younger, controlled and very good starter and those are hard to find. If you are able to bring back someone to truly increase the “top” of our rotation then it needs to be at least considered. Would our 3B position suck – well yeah at least with the bat but this is a team that can lose offense and still survive.
Trading Youk for a 4/5 type option would be plain stupid since there those out there on the market that cost just money
Right.
I proposed this late last fall, not knowing where we’d be today.
Today, I’d much rather keep Youk and sign Kuroda/Oswalt/Maholm on a one year deal (maybe two if we had to).
Unless someone wows us with an offer (like the Brewers after Fielder signs in Anaheim – wait, they signed Pujols? But they have money to burn…) because they see him as a cornerstone of their offense, playing first base… we keep Youk and sign a FA to fill the #4/#5 spot (or both… can we sign two?? Pretty please??).
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I will be fine with signing Oswalt/Maholm
But if the Brewers called us up and said “Gallardo for Youkilis.” I would be on the “hell yes” train to world series town.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
I know it's not going to happen.
It was just an example.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 7, 2012 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
I really hope noone of the Jewish faith reads this an takes offense.
As it’s meant to be playful….but if Youk gets traded to the Brewers and has Ryan Braun as a teammate. Can we call them the Milwaukee HeBrewers since they will have the two most(arguably) well known Jewish baseball players on their team?
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 6, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Ha ha ha...nicely done.
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Want Shaun Marcum?
Thats probably what you could get for Youkilis, although it would push up the Brewer payroll even further above where the owner probably wants it right now.
And after some of the reports about Youkilis in the clubhouse, Milwaukee is probably a pretty bad fit.
I wouldn't take those reports too seriously
he’s pretty generally acknowledged as a leader there and pretty well-liked. Just got caught up in one reporters trash piece after the collapse. Only other issue he’s had that I know of is an argument with Manny- and who wouldn’t argue with Manny?
I think the Sox would take Marcum for Youk, personally- but I’ve liked Marcum a lot for a while- just because I doubt that as an everyday third baseman, Youk is gonna make it through a whole season. Probably would have better luck as a first baseman.
There was his pissing about Ellsbury, too.
And his hissy fits in the dugout when he made an out (which is what lead to the Manny confrontation).
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
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OTM | Silver Seven
Marcum for Youkilis is the deal I've been screaming for since the offseason started.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
Brewers need help from in the form of a left handed hitter
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Fine
Marcum for Crawford.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
I'd like a deal for Hart/Marcum
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Only if we put Hart in Left.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
Crawford/Marcum.
Would be a great deal for the Sox, and Crawford might actually get it back,out of Boston, and into to the NL, but Milwaukee can’t afford him and their outfield is allready set.
This is a good point
They probably can’t afford him which would mean the Sox would have to pay (probably) half of his salary over the next 6 years.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 8, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
It is way too early to cut bait on Crawford
and start eating salary.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
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OTM | Silver Seven
Yup.
If they’d gamble that his year in Boston was a fluke, and that they’d get the benefit of his defense in their LF, fine… I’d trade him away for a good SP.
However, not eating any of his salary one year into the deal. If he bombs out for 2012 too, and we have Lugo 2.0, then not only do we eat salary but we decide never to sign another free agent slap hitter away from the Rays.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Well I wasn't advocating it really.
More just agreeing that the Brewers couldn’t afford him without a substantial stipend from us. I think personally it would be a terrible idea to pay $10+ million a year for 6 years for a player to play elsewhere. If it meant getting a 1-3 starting pitcher back that we controlled for at least 3 years then I might. But I don’t see that happening, so I’m going to give Crawford the benefit of the doubt and root for him to have a rebound
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 9, 2012 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
Crawford would get hit if I was pitching.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
Not happening, and it shouldn't
The Sox would have to find a team with money to spend desperate for a veteran 1B/3B and that team would have a surplus pitcher; unlikely scenario unless the Sox also included some prospects. In this time, veteran players don’t often get traded for value recieved, usually it is a contract dump.
Also, I believe Youk is the gritty performer that is part of the solution for the Red Sox, not in anyway a problem on the team.
Anthony Rizzo: Chicago Cub.
Fuck.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
I'd rather he go to a team that doesn't play in the shittiest city in the country, in a rat-infested cesspool that hasn't figured out the whole "urinal" thing.
Next to the Phillies, the Cubs are my most hated National League team, which puts them at #5 on the “fuck that team” scale.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
All right, fair enough
I will continue being indifferent.
Though I will scratch my head at the return the Padres got for who was supposed to be Gonzalez’s replacement. And I will take note that this move decreases the demand for first basemen and makes a Youk trade even more improbable.
It was the current Cubs GM that thought Rizzo was AGon's replacement
And I don’t remember the names, but the Padres got someone from the Reds that is equivalent (or so I read)
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Yonder Alonso
Is the name you’re thinking of.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 6, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you
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Not really
The Cubs aren’t trying to contend this year, they were never an option for Youk in the first place. The only reason they might have been involved is if Theo signed Fielder, which he already said he wouldn’t do.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
I didn't say the Cubs were a possible destination for Youk or Fielder
I said this decreases demand for first basemen, which it does. The Cubs needed a first baseman with Pena hitting free agency. They might still need a first baseman if you consider how Rizzo did in the majors last year, but certainly their demand is decreased.
But they don't need an aging, highly injured first baseman, they need stop gaps as they rebuild for years to come
So the Cubs were never a suitable destination for youk in the first place
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JVSM
Pedroya Lova
by Dustin's #1 Fan on Jan 7, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
Whatever.
After this tweet, he’s dead to me.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
by Bloggy on Jan 6, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Wow, that's disgusting.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
Can't read Twitter at work, anyone wanna give more detail?
Help me Obi-Blog Kenobi you’re my only hope.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 6, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Wait until you get home.
Better dramatic impact.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Well that was...
…unexpected.
However, I concur. Dead to me.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 6, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
Toldja.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
"Now that she's back in the atmosphere, with drops of Jupiter in her haaaairr!"
by Anthony Emerson on Jan 7, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
*chairshot*
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
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OTM | Silver Seven
I would rather he stay there
Than to have been flipped to the Rays.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 6, 2012 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
As someone who liked Rizzo a lot, I was happy for him
If I were him, I’d much rather be hitting at Wrigley than at Petco.
Also, I like the Cubs more than the Padres. But whatever.
I formerly thought a Youk trade might be possible but don't anymore
I knew you couldn’t trade Youk for a piece that would help now because sellers of ready-to-contend pieces want prospects. I thought Youk could be traded for the prospects needed to net the high-value piece we wanted.
But the reason I thought Youk could be traded this offseason was because I thought he would make a very attractive alternative to Pujols and Fielder for those in the first-base market. But I was wrong. Now it’s January and Fielder has not yet signed, and behind him, waiting in the free agent wings are Carlos Pena, Casey Kotchman, and Derrek Lee. Any team in need of a first baseman would be better off keeping all the pieces necessary to acquire Youkilis and signing an available free agent.
Are you ALL reading impaired???
They can’t deal Adrian Gonzalez or Carl Crawford (much as we might want them to),
How does this get to 60+ posts without calling that out? I’d like to think he meant ‘Lackey’.
-1
Despite the clumsy construction, I thought it obvious that the parenthetical comment referred only to the latter player.
Yes, same here.
I assumed he meant we couldn’t trade either of those contracts, though we’d love to trade Crawford right now. (Though, I really hope 2011 is going to turn out to be the blip in a HOF career.) It doesn’t even need to be stated that we cannot trade Lackey…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I think we literally can't trade him
since he’s on the 60 day DL
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 6, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
That's what I meant.
Clumsy construction aside.
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by Matthew Kory on Jan 6, 2012 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
Lackey After Tommy John
He might become an unexpected gift when he gets back.
Doubt it.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 8, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
He was okay....
with the Angels...
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
well it depends on when exactly his injury started getting bad
if it’s been a few years (which it kinda sounds like based on what has been revealed), and we can attribute SOME of his decline to the injury rather than just age (which isn’t a sure thing), then there’s a chance he could come back and be relatively effective.
this makes no sense
what rumors? yeah we need pitching but we need a 3B too..this is totally inane
We can lose Youkilis and still have an elite offense.
Especially if we make a trade to the Padres, who are in fire sale mode, for Chase Headley.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
though supposedly asking for the moon for Headley, who has a lot of teams interested in him
I guess I would never want to underestimate Byrnes’ stupidity.
Still, it doesn’t really look like they’re in fire sale mode. Looks like they traded away Latos, and have made the rest of the team a lot better- this IS the team that just traded for Carlos Quentin.
Not sure about Quentin
but I’m fairly certain the guys they got for Latos are under team control for a while. Don’t they also have a hot shot 3B prospect they want up?
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 7, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
yeah those guys are, except Volquez, who is a free agent after 2013
but Quentin is a FA after this year- and they traded Rizzo for a current major league pitcher. It looks to me like the Latos trade didn’t come because they’ve thrown in the towel, but because they got offered so much- three potential very impressive offensive pieces as well as a major league pitcher who probably stands to gain a ton by coming to Petco (over 20% of his flyballs went for homers last year!).
Just none of it sounds like they’re selling everything off.
I’m no expert on the Padres farm system, but my understanding is their big 3b prospect is a year away. I’d guess they’d rather trade away Headley at the deadline or next offseason, depending on his progression. Could be wrong about that though.
which isn't to say that they wouldn't trade Headley
just that they don’t have to, which gives them a lot more leverage.
And have to think that Volquez could be a chip for them too, right?
Either this year, at the deadline, for a contender that needs a starter or in 2013 for the same. Not going to bring back what Latos got them, obviously, but if he posts solid numbers in Petco (which he should), they could build his value for a nice return too, no?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I would suspect so yes.
In addition I fully expect Huston Street to be on the trade block come the deadline as well. The whole point of getting him, in my mind was to flip him to a contender down the road.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 9, 2012 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
I would be on board with Youk for Matt Harrison
then playing Punto and Aviles for most of the season until Middlebrooks is ready.
"I don't put any foreign substances on the baseball. Everything I use is from the good old U.S.A."
JVSM
Pedroya Lova
And if he never becomes ready, we trade for Headley
It works.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
I like that idea
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Is Middlebrooks really that close?
I mean, is he, or is this fan-base wishful thinking again?
That’s not a shot, I’m honestly wondering. He seems to all of a sudden be making this jump to “2012 late season regular” now that the idea of moving Youk is on the table.
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OTM | Silver Seven
I think he'll need a full year, personally
I mean, he COULD suddenly take a great leap forward in his plate discipline and be ready relatively soonish, but I bet he needs most of the year to work on it.
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 8, 2012 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
That's what I thought.
A lot of promise…we’ll see what happens at the end of next year.
I feel like we’ve been lacking a lot of patience lately with our prospects.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
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OTM | Silver Seven
I feel like this team could afford to trade Ells before it could afford trading Youk
I know nobody will agree with that.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Who would play Center?
If Crawford moved to center without whining I’d be okay with it.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
Who would play right then?
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
WHO'S....
ON FIRST!
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
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OTM | Silver Seven
I don't know
third base!
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 8, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
I agree that we should be thinking about dealing Ellsbury.
We could get a mighty haul of young players for him.
Especially since we likely cannot afford him anymore...
I mean, I hate the idea, but it is similar in concept to the idea of trading away Youk now.
Of course, I think you hold onto Ellsbury until his 2012 campaign starts to show similar life and power to 2011, and Kalish is tearing it up in AAA enough that his defense could take over in CF (with a strong back up somewhere as insurance against the injury risk)…
I don’t really want to trade either Youk or Ells, but if someone is willing to overpay us for either…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I think the Sox should look into an Ells/Hanley deal
then shop Scutaro for more pitching
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Agreed.
If we sent Ells to Cleveland though, they could move Sizemore to DH. Not sure who I’d want from them though, not Ubaldo or Masterson.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
What about their SS?
Asdrubal Cabrera?
Yeah, I know… that ain’t happening.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Pitching man, focus on the pitching.
I wonder about sending him to the Tigers for Jacob Turner. He and Ajax would be 2/3rds of one hell of a defensive outfield.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
would be buying low/selling high
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Good point
But Hanley is not really a team player except when he needs to repair damage he has done to his reputation.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 8, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
only if you believe both that Hanley will return to superstar form and that Ells will return to mediocre form
I think both are likely to end up somewhere in between and we need a center fielder more than a 3rd baseman at shortstop
We need pitching more than either
What about Josh Johnson?
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
Johnson is freaking awesome
but may be closer to an injury guarantee than an injury risk. If we’re gonna trade for pitching, I’d much rather trade for pitching that’ll likely be healthy
So would I
but I’d rather go into the season with Johnson than Cook.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 10, 2012 7:49 AM EST up reply actions
Sure,
but I’d rather go into the season with (this is assuming they don’t acquire any more starting pitchers, which I still think is extremely unlikely) Cook, Ellsbury in center field, and about $5-6 million to spend (the difference in price between Ells and Johnson) than to go in with Johnson, who will likely injured, Ryan Sweeney in center, and Darnell McDonald in right.
Me neither.
’specially not for Ells.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
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OTM | Silver Seven
It Depends on Which Hanley You Get
An elite player at SS is hard to find.When he is on, he may be the best. Plus, it would be nice to have a homegrown player back in the fold. Not for Ellsbury, though.They need to think big market and extend his contract.
Hanley has Manny's attitude, but none of Manny's bat
I will pass, at any price.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 8, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
If Hanley loves hugs as much as Manny....
MAYBE.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
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OTM | Silver Seven
Are you suggesting that...
trading Youk for pitching would be like stealing underpants?
by jimitre on Jan 7, 2012 7:36 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I feel like that number is going to shrink as time goes on and he stays at third.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 8, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah....
I mean, guy who is injury prone due to the way he plays who should probably be at 1b…hard to argue against that.
Which is why I feel like we need to trade him this year
Yeah, he might pull and Iron Man thing and play all 162 games, but I really, really, doubt that. With the change in the way compensation works as well, I don’t think we offer him the kind of contract that would get us draft picks, and if we did he’d probably accept it. We’d be stuck with Youkilis at third for 12-15 million for another year, while he only plays about 100 games. I would rather give up offensive production in favor of getting a guy who can be relied upon to play around 140-150 games in a season.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
He has far more potential value to us
Than he does trade value.
Not if he's only playing 80 games a year for us.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 8, 2012 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
I'm on the fence about that.
I think it entirely possible to have someone out there that wants Youk’s kind of bat at 1B, which would make him phenomenal trade bait that could net us a nice haul.
That said…I’m sure as shit not in any rush to get him out the door. I’d miss his bat in OUR line-up, too. I’m more than content to hold on to him and hope he stays healthy.
I’d kinda miss that sweaty warthog.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
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Honestly, this is where I am too.
However, if someone offers us a haul for him? We should take it.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I find this hard to believe.
This is a guy that finished in the top 6 of the MVP twice in recent seasons.
He lost one to a freak injury, and then broke down playing third base.
I feel like a team that loses the Fielder sweepstakes, and wants a big slugger at first base would see value here. And I think it’s good for Youk, in that he’s a lot more likely to finish a season playing first base than he is at third.
I mean, maybe I’m wrong. I guess Mike Lowell bounced back after the Marlins gave up on him, and that was playing third base for us. So maybe Youk can do that in 2012 too.
I mean, I’d rather see Youk play 140+ for us in 2012, hit .305/.410/.550 with 25+ HRs and 100+ RBIs… I just think there would be a team out there willing to give us some value for him, play him at first base and extend his career (not to mention the payday he’d get when he hits FA). I think it’s the best thing for him.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Extending his payday
If he stays relatively healthy this year, he will get a bigger payday as an elite hitting 3B who can also provide top defense and hitting at 1B down the road. Especially with the 3B market not being all that great the next couple years (Wright is out there but not much else). The real issue would be if he actually suffered an injury while playing 3B that teams think would shorten his career.
He can move to 1B a couple years down the road regardless, so if he stayed healthy enough that a team thought they could use him at 3B for half a season than he is going to get a better payday than if he plays solely 1B for the next 1-2 years and then hits free agency as a 1B/DH only.
He may be more likely to stay healthy at 1B. But the only way for him to do that is to be traded. Something he is not going to do because he prefers 3B.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 9, 2012 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
Isn't Zimmerman also out there?
and Headley is the best of the rest.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
Re: Youkilis moving to 1B
While it would probably allow him to play 15-20 more games and a couple years longer, but I think one thing that should be considered is that he didn’t LIKE playing 1B so it isn’t like he is dying to move back there. He did it because it made sense for the team when they got Lowell. He hated holding on runners, hated making chit-chat with runners (as is customary for 1B), etc.
Now before anyone points out the obvious, I know it’s not like he has a no-trade clause so he would in theory have to play wherever a new team wanted to put him. He may also change his mind and decide it is better to move over to extend his career. But I find it more likely that after next year when he hits free agency you will hear that he would prefer to be on a team where he can play 3B.
Not saying it would be impossible, but I think it just means teams that are looking for a 1-2 year rental would be the teams with interest.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 9, 2012 7:25 PM EST reply actions
Those would be the teams we were talking about
Rangers, Brewers, Marlins, maybe the Indians
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
I said way up above
I would love to get Marcum even if it meant losing Youk. Their budget seems pretty tight but maybe they could swing it. I think it is highly unlikely that will occur, but one can hope.
Rangers get tossed around alot because of their abundance of Major League arms. I could see them jumping on Youk if they could get rid of Young and Moreland (very possible). Young played 1B but not really that well althoug he’s working on improving there. He has shown he is still a good hitter so I think he’ll have DH on lock-down, and in the games he is playing utility work in the field I would suspect they put Napoli at DH or 1B. Naps has never caught 100 games in a season and they probably want to get him in the line-up as much as possible. The team has confidence in Moreland, and I’m not sure they see the position as one they need a big upgrade. They can probably flip the same pitcher we want for decent prospects elsewhere. With their team that is what I would do.
One benefit for the Rangers is that Youk is short term so they don’t have to worry about his salary in a year or two, over which time they have to try and extend Hamilton, Kinsler and Cruz, etc.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 10, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
*Young played SOME 1B.
Wanted to be clear. Either way, I think between the combo of Moreland/Young/Napoli they are probably content with 1B or would look at a cheap fill-in like Kotchman, Derek Lee, etc. It’s not like they have a struggling offense.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 10, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
I'm betting that if you asked him now,
after he admitted that playing third was harder on his body, he’d hate playing first base a little less.
Agreed.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Possibly
I did mention that he may change his mind about it given it would probably extend his career. Either way, in a trade situation as I said he will probably have to play wherever his new team wants him. I know he wants to remain a position player as long as possible, but said he would DH if that is what the team needs him to do to win.
At any rate, my main point was when he goes into Free Agency he will want the public perception to be that he will be able to play at 3B for at least a portion of the year. It only increases his marketability and options. Which means he would probably prefer to be on a team where he can show that. That part isn’t up to him though.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 10, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
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