The State Of Boston's Pitching Hunt
We're just three weeks away from pitchers and catchers reporting, and the Red Sox are still (hopefully) on the hunt for another legitimate starting pitcher to solidify the back end of their rotation.
While options such as Paul Maholm and Hiroki Kuroda have long since gone by the wayside, a few options still remain open to the Red Sox. It's just that, as of right now, most of them aren't looking terribly promising.
There's Roy Oswalt, who seemed to top the Red Sox' list for a while, and was apparently the motivation behind the Marco Scutaro salary dump. But as much as the Sox like Oswalt, Oswalt doesn't appear to like the Sox too much. With his heart apparently set on either St. Louis or Texas, the free agent has already turned down an offer from Detroit--one which, at $10 million, is likely better than any the Sox could make.
If not Oswalt, then how about Edwin Jackson?
Well, that doesn't seem too likely either. According to Ken Rosenthal, Jackson actually does have a few multi-year offers on the table. Of course, there are plenty of teams and places where a starting pitcher wouldn't be interested in getting stuck long-term, but even if Jackson is looking to stay somewhere on a short-term deal with an eye to making a return to free agency with a better market, the Red Sox wouldn't make much sense. Much as Scott Boras knew that Fenway was the right place for Adrian Beltre to go to rebuild his value, he knows that it's the last place a pitcher should be headed if he wants to cash in big later on.
That pretty much just leaves the trade market open to Boston, with Gavin Floyd being the most popular name. While it seems like Floyd is a backup option right now, there's reason to wonder how possible any deal will be for the Sox if Oswalt and Jackson go elsewhere. Kenny Williams will know what it means if those two go elsewhere, and his asking price could rise beyond the point the Sox are willing to pay.Given the current situation with Oswalt and Jackson, it would make sense for Boston to be pushing hard right about now, but there's no indication that's the case. Given the rumors that the Sox are only offering $5 million to the free agents, he could even be out of their price range to begin with.
There is one ray of hope, however. As Matt mentioned earlier today, Bud Selig has taken over the Theo Epstein compensation talks, and according to Nick Cafardo at least one AL GM is expecting a significant return for the Sox. I'm not saying we should expect Matt Garza to be left outside Fenway wrapped up with a bow, but it's possible that this gives them the leverage they need to pull off a deal at a reduced cost, or to pick up someone like a Randy Wells. It's hardly a sure thing, but at this point it would be foolish to leave any stone unturned.
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This is interesting - although maybe because I've not been paying close attention:
Per Cafardo (emphasis added):
League sources have indicated an outcome should occur soon. The teams have submitted names to the Commissioner and it appears the commissioner will soon make a ruling. The two sides had agreed that a “significant” player would change hands. That was the agreement in allowing Epstein to escape the year remaining on his contract and become president of baseball operations for the Cubs.
I was not under the impression that both sides agreed on a significant player, I just thought it was Lucchino being a dick and throwing out the arbitrary high-ball “we’ll take Starlin Castro and Matt Garza” opening offer in hopes that Theo would bargain towards the unreasonable position (not that I think either Castro or Garza will be coming back). If both sides agreed on a significant return, that makes the resolution of this a bit more interesting, i.e. not an argument about which piece of organizational filler we get.
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 31, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
I'm really hoping it's Randy Wells.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 31, 2012 6:48 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I hadn't seen that before, and it seems like a more promising sign.
I had pretty much written it off, but I suppose while we can quibble over which players they think are “significant” versus which ones we think are, we should be getting more than a AAAA player back, right?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Well, for my part...
… I think that slotting Matt Garza in at # 4 and starting Castro at short would make the Red Sox look significantly better, and that John Lackey’s contract and his demeanor are significant liabilities.
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Feb 1, 2012 2:06 AM EST up reply actions
If only...
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Re: Jackson
My optimism mostly remains because Jackson’s camp has said they would be fine with one year from Boston. So here’s hoping the multi-year offers are just not appealing to Jackson, due to dollars or location (i.e., sure you can have three years, but we’re paying you $20 million total)
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
Even Rosenthal's tweet says it's still possible he takes the one-year and waits until next off-season
C’mon, Scott.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Jan 30, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
Sadly, I feel like this is a negotiating ploy.
As much as I’ve been advocating the idea that pitching well in Boston would let either Oswalt or Jackson sell themselves to the highest bidder in 2013, it’s not exactly like there are good odds on them accomplishing a lot of success/improvement in Fenway.
Now, if Jackson’s other offers are in the realm of the Orioles (facing both the Yankees and the Red Sox line ups, plus lousy defense behind you and not such a good offense or ability to win the AL East), then we could still be in the hunt. I have to believe Boston is better than Baltimore, in his camp.
So… where else is he being offered multi-year deals? Let’s assume that Boras created one for the sense of demand, and that the third is a real one… the Seattle Mariners opened a roster spot trading Pineda, right? They offer a great pitchers park, and weaker AL West line ups (well, the A’s, anyway… even if they add Manny). I mean, Seattle would be the exact opposite of Fenway, right? Where Fenway was great for Beltre, Safeco could be great for Jackson for all the reasons it was terrible for Beltre…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
"roster spot" should have been "rotation spot"
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Camps
I’ve always wondered what a player’s “camp” is like… are they in their back yard with a pup tent and sleeping bags gossiping about what teams they like best? Or maybe it’s more like summer camp, off in the woods near a lake, canoeing, making wooden bowls from logs and putting on skits with their agents and family.
And who is that guy in the hockey mask with the machete?
It’s Jonny Gomes!
The Year of Extreme Opinions
BLAAAAAAARGH OMFG SIGN STARTERS!!
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 30, 2012 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
I may just be totally panicked at this point to be suggesting this
But Javier Vazquez is still available too
by camthomas on Jan 30, 2012 2:23 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Not really
He was retiring or pitching for the Marlins this year, by the sounds of it.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Jan 30, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
The State of Boston's Pitching Hunt
We’re @#$%ed.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
He had shoulder surgery in August
So not really a sure thing as far as being productive in 2012 goes. Surgery is listed as, “debridement labrum & bursa & rotator cuff”
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Jan 30, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
Hmm
Well, he wouldn’t be the first reclamation project they’ve attempted. Not even the tenth project, probably. If they have room and money (from losing out on Oswalt/Jackson/Floyd/etc.) he could be a sleeper.
They could always resign Wakefield
ducks thrown tomatoes
Not really a serious suggestion unless they do absolutely nothing else…
Author, Dawn of a New Age and The Blademaster
CO, USS Callisto
Avid Red Sox fan :)
If Wakefield is the option...
… I am resigned to it
(j/k)
The Year of Extreme Opinions
BLAAAAAAARGH OMFG SIGN STARTERS!!
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 30, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
I still think he can contribute
But he’s not the option to fix the rotation.
And apparently Cherrington agrees since Wake hasn’t gotten a call.
Author, Dawn of a New Age and The Blademaster
CO, USS Callisto
Avid Red Sox fan :)
by Rick Bentsen on Jan 30, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, professional author-guy
http://www.prideofdetroit.com/2012/1/12/2702921/re-signed-resigned
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 30, 2012 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
This was the joke I was trying to make.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
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I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 30, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
I know, but it went over his head.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 30, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
No caffiene today :P
Author, Dawn of a New Age and The Blademaster
CO, USS Callisto
Avid Red Sox fan :)
by Rick Bentsen on Jan 30, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
Which is probably why what I’m working on doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me…
Author, Dawn of a New Age and The Blademaster
CO, USS Callisto
Avid Red Sox fan :)
by Rick Bentsen on Jan 30, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
First the pants, THEN the shoes.
(again, j/k)
The Year of Extreme Opinions
BLAAAAAAARGH OMFG SIGN STARTERS!!
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 30, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
D'OH!
No wonder I was having so much trouble getting my pants on this morning….
Author, Dawn of a New Age and The Blademaster
CO, USS Callisto
Avid Red Sox fan :)
by Rick Bentsen on Jan 30, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
I used to work with a guy who would put his shoes on first, then his pants...
… specifically so he didn’t wrinkle his pants while putting on his shoes.
Swear it’s true… he also used a blow dryer on his hair to keep it perfectly straight.
One of those consulting jobs where were on the road so much, the company paid for our housing when we were in the office, meaning you learned quite a lot about the habits of your co-workers.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Thats... a little disturbing :)
Author, Dawn of a New Age and The Blademaster
CO, USS Callisto
Avid Red Sox fan :)
by Rick Bentsen on Jan 30, 2012 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
Jackson would be crazy to turn down a multi-year deal
Yes, even if it is Baltimore. We are talking about Edwin Jackson here, not Beltre. Beltre was a former MVP candidate coming off a bad contract, a one year deal with the Red Sox was perfect for him and it worked out for both Beltre and the Red Sox.
Jackson is what he is – a decent #4ish starter. It’s not like he won 20 games 2 years ago and fell on hard times. I don’t see any additional value he needs to “rebuild”.
While I would like to see the Sox land him, Jackson/Boras should just take the best total value deal.
Jackson's closest comparable is John Danks and Danks just received a 5yr/65M extension.
An under value multi year deal gives your client a shitty multiyear contract that wastes his prime years for way under market value then puts him back on the market in his 30s when he can expect far less total compensation for his next contract.
"We’re the Sox. Not Apple Sox. We ain’t no Barbeque Sox. We’re the Red Sox.’’ - David Ortiz
As opposed to risking it all in Boston
a hitter’s ballpark. Danks, unlike jackson, wasn’t on his fifth team in 3 years.
It makes no sense for Jackson to go to Boston.
Really, at this point the speculation is almost absurd.
Especially if our offer was really $5/$6 million for a guy that wanted $3/30 million or more...
… hard to imagine someone else out there: Saint Louis, Seattle, the Nationals, wouldn’t offer him more than that.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
no sp moves + sig comp =
Kazmir!
by JonnyJumpUp on Jan 30, 2012 4:20 PM EST via mobile reply actions
by the by
I recall there being some consternation last year about why Taylor Buchholz was let go.This may explain it.
I wouldn't mind Jackson fr the right price
I trust Jackson better in the AL than the NL. I like him over Oswalt. I like how they stock piled arms, something Theo failed to do last season. I also wouldn’t mind Wakefield fr a half a season, start him in June and shut him down when the rosters expand… fr the right price that is. I’m very interested to see what the compensation will be… It sounds like Theo didn’t want to give up anything and MLB thinks Theo is being a dick and glorious compensation we shall receive!
I like how they are paying attention to the budget since they have two contracts that seem concerning (Lackey and Crawford, possibly Dice here too) and some holes (SS, SP, possibly closer, see how Bailey holds up) and Ellsbury that will need money going forward. If they are in it in late July they can make a trade or waiver signing and if not, they can sell fr the future. No one is expecting 100 wins anymore.
Overall, reasonable suggestion...
However, I’d take issue with the idea that we didn’t stockpile arms in 2011.
Remember, at this time last year, we had a starting rotation of: Lester/Beckett/Buchholz/Lackey and Dice K, with Wakefield still hanging around as an emergency starter and this Alfredo Aceves guy that was a potential starter.
Behind that, we had Doubront (who had looked reasonably good in 2010, and might have earned a rotation spot in ST except for the whole out of shape issue), Weiland, the Andrew Miller experiment, Tazawa eventually coming back from his injury, Kevin Millwood and I feel like a few other guys with opt-out, low risk minor league deals.
That seems like a hell of a lot more depth than we have right now. We don’t even have the front six that we had heading into 2011 (results are all fine in hindsight, but that looked like depth last year), nevermind anyone with the potential of Aceves/Miller in the depth guys. Mostly, it looks like we’ve got a lot of Millwoods in the Padilla/Cook/Silva signings, and less promise in the Andrew Miller experiment (even if he worked with Cliff Lee during the offseason).
I hope I’m wrong but…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
In Red Sox defense
there is no way they could of planned for both Lackey and Dice-K having Tommy John Surgery and surgery that usually keeps you out over 16 months.
If either is healthy, the Red Sox are in a much different position.
I don't disagree with that.
However… ..it happens, and the depth you built is what keeps you in the race.
My point was simply that at this time last year, we looked like we had a lot more depth than we do today.
Today, we know we have two question marks in the rotation: the health of Beckett and Buchholz coming back from a significant back injury, plus two actual holes in the rotation (one for the Bard experiment to plug and the other for the TPM we’ve signed to minor league deals).
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Both of this situations were crystal clear by June 1st, and July 1st, and July 31st
Our failure to adapt and general complacency doomed us in September.
Everything Must Go.
Agreed.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I am expecting 100 wins
I am not on this “John Cusack, Mayan Calender, the world will end in 2012” attitude that seems to represent the majority of the people who post on this site.
Red Sox still have quality players at a level similar to other teams who are competing for the AL title. No reason why the Sox cannot get hot and win 100.
I think 100 might be a little high (and by that I mean Mary-Jane aided)
But other than that, I’m onboard with your sentiment.
There’s a log of negative Nancies around here.
by CelticPride on Jan 30, 2012 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
And I'm not usually one of them...
… but I have a hard time buying into the rotation we’ve put together to this point.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Indeed.
“Negative Nancies” is a little harsh. Yeah, there are some folks around here are way more gloom & doom than they should be, perhaps, but at the same time there are a greater number of people who have a real issue with how the Red Sox front office has decided to fix the problems that this team has. I am one of them. STRONGLY.
That said, the season is in no way a write-off, and there is a lot of talent on the squad. How the season plays out is still uncertain.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I understand that the rotation seems underwhelming
I mean Beckett, Lester Buccholz ? ?
is an incomplete. I like the Top3
Will Bard be able make the conversion.
Will Aceves?
Vicente Padilla and Aaron Cook don’t thrill me.
Of course, the season doesn’t start for a few months. Pitchers and catchers haven’t reported yet.
by CelticPride on Jan 31, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Beckett has had a lot of injury time over the years, and now Buchholz has a major back injury...
So, by that argument, we don’t really even have a solid front three. Could it all work out just fine? Sure. Could we watch both of them disappear with back injuries in 2012, much like we lost Dice K and wish we’d lost Lackey? Absolutely.
How to you adjust for the potential loss of two starters, which we experienced in 2011 with what appeared to be a lot of depth behind them? Well… you add depth. Right now, we don’t have the #4 spot answered (pending Bard’s try out in Spring Training) or any idea who the #5 is.
Last year, we had six guys that seemed to be reasonable for a starting rotation: Lester/Beckett/Buchholz/Lackey/Dice K and Wakefield (not to mention Aceves was considered a possible starter, Miller, Doubront, Weiland and on…) That wasn’t enough depth.
This year, we have more questions about the front three (two of them, anyway) and less answers on the back end. So I’m not writing the season off, but I think it is a real concern.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
100 wins!?
From your post to the baseball gods’ ears. I guess Padilla will be a 20 game winner.
Everything Must Go.
Yankees collecting old Sox Pen Guys
“The Yankees signed Manny Delcarmen to a minor league contract, Joel Sherman of the New York Post tweets.”
Bringing back the dirtys!
Of course they’ll probably be lights out for the Empire
Of course they will, the Yankees medical director majored in chemistry, if you know what I mean.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 30, 2012 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
As opposed to the Red Sox medical staff...
… who have degrees in 18th Century Medical Techniques and Discourse, with a minor in Creative Writing.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
BLAAAAAAARGH OMFG SIGN STARTERS!!
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 30, 2012 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
Hey...
I have a minor in Creative Writing…
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 30, 2012 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
Then you too are qualifed...
… to make up fake diagnoses to cover up incompetently-diagnosed injuries.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
BLAAAAAAARGH OMFG SIGN STARTERS!!
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 31, 2012 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
I majored in Creative Writing.
I credit that for my job in marketing today.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
My name is Dr. Leo Spaceman,
and I have a degree from the Ho Chi Minh School of Medicine.
Everything Must Go.
You'll feel better after a good bleeding!
Broom-Gilda…bring me the leeches!
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Wandy?
I don’t think he would be all that good but he is decent and played in front of awful D. He is better than Maholm in my opinion and can be had for a song supposedly.
As long as we look at that before Oswalt and Jackson disappear...
… though, he is still with the Astros, right? I feel like we’d have kicked those tires before the Lowrie trade, if there was an opportunity there.
I just think once the free agents are gone, other teams may try to hold us for a king’s ransom.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
yeah I mean, I think he'd be OK in Boston
I just can’t imagine the Sox taking on his salary if they aren’t willing to offer more than $5-6 million to Oswalt and Jackson
I'd actually rather have Jackson...
… at Wandy’s salary for one year than trade for Wandy. Not interested in giving up even middling prospects in order to assume those options.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
BLAAAAAAARGH OMFG SIGN STARTERS!!
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Feb 1, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Whose Available at the Deadline
Supposing we stumble into June with Bar, Cooke et al. Who do we imagine will be made available at the deadline?
Cain comes to mind, if the Giants struggle (I predict they will, but I’ve been wrong about Sabean so many times). I can’t imagine we could put together a realistic package for him though.
Liriano? I’d be interested in that option.
Others? It might be better than trying to procure 3 guys, none of whom seems enthused about coming here.
Never really know until it happens...
The Mariners were supposed to contend with Lee and Felix two years ago, but ended up sellers and trading within the division to the Rangers.
So… until we get there, we won’t really know. Of course, Bedard should be available from the Pirates, but… um…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Unless Floyd is traded before ST
I definitely could see him being available at the deadline.
by aubatron2011 on Jan 30, 2012 11:53 PM EST up reply actions

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