Carl Crawford Or Prince Fielder's Contract?
Prince Fielder signed a nine-year, $214 million deal with the Tigers earlier this week. It seemingly came out of nowhere, but the Tigers, Nationals, Dodgers, and possibly others were all in on Fielder seriously, just under the radar. That was the price it took to sign the first baseman, and while other teams decided not paying at all beat signing up for nine years of a guy whose body might betray him as he ages, the Tigers took the plunge.
Last winter, the Red Sox signed Carl Crawford to a seven-year, $142 million deal. Excitement was the initial response, but a poor debut with Boston has given his detractors reason to loathe the deal, while his supporters are just waiting for 2012 to begin in the hopes they're on the right track in regards to his future.
Which of these two deals is less risky? Which would you rather your team be responsible for? Inspired by The Platoon Advantage's Bill Parker, let's do a little digging.
Crawford has six years remaining on his contract, and is owed roughly $20 million per year for the next five years, then $21 million in the final year of his contract in 2017. He has no-trade protection from just two teams, and if any of the others get him, he can't be traded to the Yankees after.
Crawford isn't as obviously productive as Fielder, who is good because he hits baseballs very far with regularity. Crawford is a far more complete player, though. The 2011 season was marred by a serious April bout of trying too hard, as well as a definite mid-season injury to his hamstring, and possible wrist problems that were surgically repaired this off-season. Historically, though, Crawford is an above-average hitter for left field, a spectacular defensive player, and one of the top baserunners in the league.
Not just in terms of stealing bases, either, but in the sense that he goes first-to-third and second-to-home better than most. Ellsbury and Crawford are close in speed, but the former has nothing on the baserunning skills of the latter. There are extra runs worth of value to be squeezed out on the bases, and Crawford has added anywhere from a few runs to nearly a win in value per season just from that aspect of his game.
Defense peaks earlier than offense in players, though, so certain parts of Crawford's value might decline sooner than Fielder's bat. Then again, Crawford is famous for being a workout fiend, and part of the reason the Red Sox signed him is due to how well they thought he would age. Speed players tend to age well to begin with, and Crawford will be just 35 when his contract ends. He's not exactly going to be ancient at the end of this thing, even if seven years is a long time on the surface.
It's tough to be wholly optimistic about Crawford's future, thanks to his 2011, but there are reasons to think he'll bounce back and provide the value the Red Sox actually signed him for. Will he end up overpaid? Sure, but that's the price of doing business on the highest end of free agency. And, if you're comparing him to Fielder, there are plenty of reasons to prefer Crawford's deal, even if, speaking in terms of total production, they are similar.
You could say Crawford has been inconsistent in his career, but you can't do so without also mentioning Fielder is guilty of the same. Take a look at Fielder's wins above replacement over the years, from Baseball Reference, Fangraphs, and Baseball Prospectus, respectively:
| rWAR | fWAR | WARP | |
| 2006 | -0.5 | 1.3 | 0.5 |
| 2007 | 3.8 | 5.1 | 4.2 |
| 2008 | 2.1 | 1.7 | 2.0 |
| 2009 | 6.1 | 6.4 | 4.5 |
| 2010 | 2.7 | 3.4 | 3.1 |
| 2011 | 5.2 | 5.5 | 5.3 |
WAR isn't the end all, be all, partially because defensive value is so hard to approximate still, but these numbers aren't bouncing around due to defense. Fielder's power is all over the place year-to-year, with his Isolated Power reaching .300 or better twice, but mostly sticking somewhere in the low-to-mid .200s. There's nothing wrong with the less productive offensive campaigns in the sense they are still generating quality offense, but when combined with Fielder's defense, you get a player who is always going to be paid to be elite, but might deliver to that level about one-third of the time. Or half, depending on who you ask. The perils of WAR.
Either way, not nearly enough, when you consider how high-risk he is as a player. The Tigers' reasoning for wanting him is clear: they would like to win while they have their Justin Verlander/Miguel Cabrera core in place. But the fallout from that is unlikely to be pretty, and while it's easy to bust out the "flags fly forever" mantra, try telling that to Red Sox fans who expect to be in this thing every year.
Fielder isn't always elite in his younger years. What about as he gets older? His body hasn't betrayed him yet, as he's managed to keep on hitting (and remain very durable) for his entire career. But Fielder will just be 28 in 2012, and bodies change. Metabolisms change. Look no further than Prince's own dad if you want evidence of that.
Heavier players do not age well. With Prince Fielder in mind, Ryan Campbell ran a study at Fangraphs that showed how much faster heavier players tended to see massive drops in performance relative to their lighter peers. Check out the graph, based on 205 players with a weight of at least 3.25 pounds per square inch (i.e., a six foot tall player would need to weigh 234 pounds) for a quick glimpse:
Fielder is already past the point where the two lines converge, and while he is better than your average big guy and has room to decline, things get ugly fast.
We have two players who have been inconsistent for different reasons over the years -- Crawford's value takes a hit when he injures a leg, and Fielder's defensive issues and lack of non-hitting attributes mean he lives and dies at the plate. There are huge risks involved in any long-term contract, but Crawford owns both the shorter-term (and less lucrative) contract, as well as a body profile that gives him a better chance of aging well. Fielder, more expensive, stuck in Detroit until he's 36 years old -- that graph above only goes through age-32, and it's already not that pretty -- and with a physical profile almost the exact opposite of Crawford, is potentially the much higher risk, even if he's the more obviously productive of the two at present.
There are exceptions to the aging curve for heavier players, of course. David Ortiz hasn't always been the slimmest designated hitter on the block, but he's doing pretty well for himself in his mid-30s. Mo Vaughn saw a definite drop in performance in his 30s, but stuck around until he was 35, while remaining useful up through his age-34 season. And not every speedster ages well, either. But if you're measuring the risks inherent in both of these players, relative to the contracts they signed, then it's an easy choice as to who you would rather have.
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neither great, just because of Prince's body type I'd say Carl
but both are killers
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Yeah, I tried to avoid saying Crawford is definitely bouncing back fully, or Prince is totally going to fail
Because we really just don’t know with either. Just more in the, “If you have to choose one of these risky deals…” vein.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Jan 27, 2012 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
I'd say they might get more production out of Prince these next 3-4 years
than we will get from Carl the next 6, I really hope I’m wrong saying that.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Title should've been: Who's contract is uglier...
Twitter | "Almost every organization has a guy like Papelbon or Lester" - Dave Cameron 12/29/2005
Well, given our situation I guess I'd rather have Crawford
but at least Prince is a starting-caliber player.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
Prince and Miguel back to back is really strong
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Comparable to when we had Manny/Papi
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 27, 2012 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
this team seems like since Manny left they have be searching for identity
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
I would say since Schilling left
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 27, 2012 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Both the same season, right?
We signed Schilling to a deal in 2008, but he never pitched and Manny departed that August.
I would say, though, if Boras hadn’t sabotaged Manny’s summer of 2008, to talk the Sox out of picking up his options at the end of the season, we’d have won the 2008 World Series.
Even if Manny didn’t get the big lift he mysteriously got in L.A., and just played as well as Bay… I think Big Papi would have been happier and better with Manny on the team.
I have to say Gizmo is right… without Schilling, we made it to Game 7 of the 2008 ALCS… but without Manny, we couldn’t get over the hump to the World Series. I doubt we’d have made the World Series without Manny’s contributions early in that season.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Really looking forward to the season.
So I can stop reading comments about how a guy with a 110 wRC+ is now an 83 because of one bad season.
Twitter: @Greenlineoutfit
by John Leary on Jan 27, 2012 10:53 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Really looking forward to this season
so I can stop reading all these comments from people who blindly assume he’s going to bounce back and be the guy he was in Tampa Bay.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 27, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
It's not blindly
It’s sample size and the context of last year. The same principles applied to every other player, every year, when they don’t perform as expected, for good or bad.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Jan 27, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
Except you're looking at numbers where he played half his games in Tampa Bay
not half his games in Boston. He has shit numbers here. Shit. Numbers. For. His. Career.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 27, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
I know the numbers are there to say he sucks in Fenway...
… but, man, I have a hard time believing that. I just remember him killing us when he was on the Rays, and getting on base meant he was standing on third and our pitcher was unhinged by how fast he moved from base to base.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
He ran a ton in Maddon's system
I’m actually kinda hoping that Bobby V. lets Ells and Crawford loose this year just to mix things up
A regression to the mean in OBP
should go a long way in at least generating significantly more opportunities. The style of the manager no doubt plays a big role, few run more than Maddon’s teams, but getting on base alone stunted him last year, before we even consider Tito.
Twitter: @Greenlineoutfit
SSS
His career at Fenway still constitutes as a SSS. 590 PAs do not take precedence over the greater 5921 over his career.
Twitter: @Greenlineoutfit
by John Leary on Jan 27, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
How about his career
750 road OPS in over 3000 PAs? Is that sample size not large enough for you? What it means is that he has never been able to hit outside of the Trop. Wait you say-all players hit better in the comfy confines of their home parks. Not so-the Trop has surpressed Longoria’s, Zobrist’s, Pena’s and Upton’s numbers. Only Carl seemed to hit well there. It seemed somehow clear when looking at these numbers before the deal that he was destined to suck after leaving the Trop. Add to that the fact that the Rays are very advanced in defensive positioning and the fact that Carl’s skill set it totally not suited for Fenway’s LF and you had an obvious disaster waiting to happen (e.g. he looked to be worth more than he was). I hate statements like “but a poor debut with Boston has given his detractors reason to loathe the deal, while his supporters are just waiting for 2012 to begin in the hopes they’re on the right track in regards to his future.” That makes it sound like this “detracting” is post facto. There were a bunch of us who brought this up before the deal. Carl will be better than he was in 2011 because he can’t be worse. But will he ever be worth his contract? Not close.
I got curious, so I looked it up.
Crawford’s OBP and BABIP are both .20 points lower away from the Trop for his career.
He also has a CAREER .715 OPS in Boston, .727 in Camden Yards, .694 in New Mordor (SSS). In the East, he’s only above .750 in TOR (.790) and TB (.801).
He does have a .917 OPS in US Cellular, maybe we can trade him to the White Sox.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 27, 2012 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
I think parsing it by team is excessive
the real issue is he has never hit well on the road (even in stretches where his BABIP is not very different on the road-like 2008-2010), and comparison to his Tampa colleagues suggests this is not just the usual home/road issue. Carl looked like a guy that would not be close to a 800 OPS player after moving from Tampa…and he isn’t.
Makes some sense, too, right?
I mean, the Trop has that fast, hard carpet for ground balls to get through, or deep on IFs, where Carl was able to beat out the throws to first.
Similar concept on balls hit to the OF getting into the gaps, allowing him to take extra bases (something he’s widely valued for).
Again, I hated this deal when we made it, but I do think he’ll be a solid performer for us before all is said and done. Probably hard to truly be worth that contract but it’ll be interesting to see what other OFs are being paid a few years from now.
After all, look what Fielder just signed…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
That actually makes a lot of sense
even when you split it into the different teams of the East. Toronto is another dome team with a fast infield, it would make sense that he hits better there.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 28, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Please don't get butt hurt.
This could mean he’s more comfortable at home as opposed to the road, the run environment irrelevant. SSS and all, but we may have seen this last year. He posted an OPS 56 points higher at Fenway than on the road.
But anyway, I started with wRC+ because as a strong baserunner and base stealer, it makes more sense to judge his offensive output using such a metric as opposed to OPS. Unless you’re trying to throw away an important part of the picture.
*Career wRC+
Home: 116
Road: 105
We’re both mixing in 2011, but it won’t through things off too much to prove the point that even Crawford were to be his “road-self,” he’d still generate 5% more runs than the average hitter as opposed to the 17% less that he did last year. Short of his production at the Trop, yes, but still, as I originally stated, closer to his composite career than what we saw from him last year.
Twitter: @Greenlineoutfit
5% more runs than the average hitter?
That is NOT going to cut it for his contract and at a premium hitting position.
We aren't talking about his contract.
You aware that he’s “only” posted a 110 wRC+ for his career, as noted in the original comment? Not that 5% isn’t important, but the Red Sox knew they weren’t signing an elite offensive player.
Still though, a wRC+ of 105 best the average player at your premium position seven years running.
Twitter: @Greenlineoutfit
You miss the point
He will not be an above 100 wRC+ hitter away FRM Tampa. He was somehow RELATIVELY enhanced by the turf and controlled climate of that HITTING SURPRESSED park. Hence the double benefit from a metric that park adjusts. Now take him away from that park on grass where wRC+ corrects for Fenway being a hitting environment that is positive but he won’t take advantage of and you get what will happen…
Not a 100 wRC+ hitter away from Tampa?
He’s been just that (well, better) over the duration of his career. There’s nothing to suggest that he can’t do so at Fenway, besides the SSS, certainly worth noting, but not enough.
Twitter: @Greenlineoutfit
Not with the - Fenway induced
Unless he can take advantage of that- which seems unlikely because he is mostly a pull hitter.
Btw
A 105 wRC+ is below average for a left fielder
But He plays
amazing defense. Also, just use normal wRC+. Home/Road splits are a terrible way to project future performance. Park factors are much better.
Come the hell on
He plays among d in Tampa where the outfield is big and the can tell him where to play each play. You think LF in Fenway for 81 games plus lack of advanced positioning will not take a toll on his d value? Please. How did his d look last year?
My guess is his D
will be at the gold glove level he’s usually at next year.
No way
He may be plus but not that plus. Can’t happen given the factors I list. That is why the move was so damn puzzling from the go.
well, I found that
UZR is about as reliable as hitting stats at 255 balls in zone. It’s more reliable than pitching stats, and it’s pretty reliable for infielders, but Crawford only had 160 balls in zone.
Again
Only if you assume that defense should be as variable as hitting. Which as I’ve stated before, ESPECIALLY in the OF, is a rather questionable assumption.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Joseph Vincent Paterno 12/21/26 - 1/22/12 RIP Coach
Penn State Forever
Noting a mistake I made above.
Still though, a wRC+ of 105 best the average player at your premium position seven years running.
Meant to say that a 105 wRC+ bests the AL league average seven years running. Not MLB. Personally I prefer to stick with comparing within the league a player plays in.
I don’t mind entertaining other arguments, but going back to my original comment, my point is not where 105 wRC+ lies on the spectrum of players or even left fielders. I acknowledge above that the org certainly didn’t sign him because they though he was an elite offensive player.
To expand somewhat beyond my original comment, my point is that I find that I find the idea of judging who Crawford is now based solely on one season as many have, to be quite silly.
Twitter: @Greenlineoutfit
hmm, well
Bill James projects him for a .337 wOBA, so I don’t think he really agrees with you that Crawford will be terrible
I was joking referring to James being against the deal.
But a 337 wOBA would be below average for a lfer and that is not accounting for the fact that the program uses 09 and 10 automatically in the projection.
Average wOBA of LFs over the last three years:
League:
2011: .320
2010: .328
2009: .338
AL:
2011: .314
2010: .324
2009: .337
Twitter: @Greenlineoutfit
So basically average
When adjusting for the fact that a 337 wOBA in Fenway adjusts down because it is a top run scoring environment. The projection is blind to this but that is moot because the projection is also blind to the fact that he no longer plays in Tampa and is no longer inflated by its turf etc or the fact that 2010 ( which is in the projection) was a career year.
Honestly, what are you arguing? This post WAS about contract. A 105 wRC+ left fielder with an 8 UZR/150 is worth 10 million a year less than what Crawford is making. It was noted as a head scratcher decision at the time by several analysts and a dozen people here due to the bad fit via a vis:
1.his hitting approach
2.his l/r splits
3.his inability to hit outside of the dime
4. His lack of fit for a small lf that diminishes the need for speed and increases the need for an arm
5.the worry that much the TB fielding prowess was scouting.
The belief that we think the deal was bad because he stunk last year is wrong- we knew it was a bad fit from the start.
Ha. What am I arguing?
Feel free to make you’re way back up the comment tree.
Twitter: @Greenlineoutfit
I did and I see a lot of bullshit
like he is really a 110 wRC+ player. Hmm-we have blown that out of the water. Or that this is not about contract-well unless you think a 2.5 WAR player warrants a 21 million dollar contract. Wanna man up and make a bet? I bet you Crawford will neither have a wRC+ exceeding 110 nor will he exceed 3 WAR. Stakes?
Yeah...
I did and I see a lot of bullshit
like he is really a 110 wRC+ player.
I never said that.
Or that this is not about contract
Or this.
well unless you think a 2.5 WAR player warrants a 21 million dollar contract. Wanna man up and make a bet? I bet you Crawford will neither have a wRC+ exceeding 110 nor will he exceed 3 WAR. Stakes?
But I do see a lot of bullshit. Like you continually trying to change the discussion to suit your purpose.
It’s been fun. See you on the next topic.
Twitter: @Greenlineoutfit
rigggggggght
1)So I can stop reading comments about how a guy with a 110 wRC+ is now an 83 because of one bad season
So that does not imply you think that is his true neutral offensive level?
2)We aren’t talking about his contract.
Really? Wasn’t the whole topic of thread about contract and how Crawford’s was obviously stupid when it was doled out? No one thinks he is nearly as bad of a basbeall player as he was last year-the “detractors” just knew he was not close to the 6-7 WAR player he was in Tampa from 2009-2010.
Yep.
James expects a significant rebound. Still not near his career nights, but the projected .337 wOBA falls in-line with his career .343.
Twitter: @Greenlineoutfit
Of course the projection is skewed
By his final 2 years in Tampa including a career year.
Of course James projects largely on past averages
The way most projections do. Moving to Fenway could very well be a dogled left in his career and nothing after the move will ever look like anything from before it.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Joseph Vincent Paterno 12/21/26 - 1/22/12 RIP Coach
Penn State Forever
Butt hurt?
You didn’t read my post. It is commonly known that players often play a tad better at home than opposing players do. However the crucial info here is that generally a player’s road OPS is a good lower bound for what they will do when you remove them from one environment and place them in another. More to the point other Rays all hit better on the road, only Crawford hit better at home. This strongly suggests the specifics of the Trop ( turf, dome, etc) contributed strongly to his numbers which are ordinary otherwise. Your point about his play at Fenway is silly- he was bad both at home and on the road and it is a small sample.
Crawford will never be an above average hitting lf here, and his defensive value is greatly reduced. He will not average out to be more than a 2-3 WAR player here ( I actually think he will never top 3 WAR in a year) and thus this was an atrocious contract…and that is the point.
by Buzzy on Jan 28, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I never read anything that studied home/road splits at length.
You didn’t read my post. It is commonly known that players often play a tad better at home than opposing players do. However the crucial info here is that generally a player’s road OPS is a good lower bound for what they will do when you remove them from one environment and place them in another.
Do you have any references?
This has kind of meshed with the other bit, so I’ll just continue with the discussion there.
Twitter: @Greenlineoutfit
As Marc said, it's not blind assumptions.
It’s far more likely that he’ll be a composite of his last 10 years, with some decline, than duplicate last year.
Twitter: @Greenlineoutfit
Yeah, hang on there, TLD.
I would argue that you’re the one blindly repeating the mantra that he’ll never be good in Fenway.
I didn’t love this deal when we got it (I actually rejoiced when we got Gonzo, not only for the value he was going to give us at first base, but because I thought it would take us out of the Crawford sweeps), but there’s no way he should continue to be as bad as 2011.
The statistical evidence says he’s due for a positive bounce back this year. He’s had a bad year before but until he puts up back to back seasons of suck, it’s too early to write him off.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
I just think that, even if he does "bounce back"
he’s got a ceiling of 3 WAR. He’s never, ever, going to be the guy he was in Tampa.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 27, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
I'd take the 3 WAR happily
I don’t think he’ll be the same guy he was in TB. I’m hoping for a certain amount of improvement, and I don’t think that it’s too much to expect that he’ll be better than he was in 2011.
Besides… no one should get $214 million dollars to play a kids game…
by Rick Bentsen on Jan 27, 2012 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
I don't doubt he'll be better
I just don’t think he’ll be good.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 27, 2012 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
IF
A. He’s not a black hole in the lineup… I don’t mean he has to put up a +800 OPS or anything like that…. just serviceable
and
B. Serviceable in the field… he’s NOT a bad fielder, he just seemed lost last year… maybe some more time in practice will help him.
THen that’s all I really want out of him. Will we ever get our money’s worth out of him? No. But, hey.
by Rick Bentsen on Jan 27, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
See, I don't think he can be a good fielder
not in Fenway, he’s just got the wrong defensive makeup.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 27, 2012 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
I think he'll be good
just not “good enough”.
But I leave room open to be proven wrong.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
If he breaks off another .375 BABIP year
and we go to the WS, I’ll lay off him for a while
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 27, 2012 8:28 PM EST up reply actions
The guy can have a bad year
Drew’s first year wasn’t so shit-hot. He turned it around a bit…maybe Crawford can, too.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Drew was an OBP guy
Crawford’s a BABIP guy with drastic career home/road splits.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 27, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
So essentially
Would you rather be punched in the balls or kicked in the balls.
No, I’m kidding…I would say it is hard to tell at this point. Prince will be a DH for the last few years of his deal but will probably have decent enough offensive numbers to match the overall offensive+defensive production of CC. It should be close…but either way there is a good chance they will both be overpaid in the last couple years of the contracts. I don’t know…I guess CC just because Prince’s body will wear down and it’s longer and more money.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 27, 2012 11:02 AM EST reply actions
You can always have both!

I am Sandy's bitch.
Joseph Vincent Paterno 12/21/26 - 1/22/12 RIP Coach
Penn State Forever
Nice
The Year of Extreme Opinions
BLAAAAAAARGH OMFG SIGN STARTERS!!
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 27, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
I'd rather have Crawford NO QUESTION.
For one thing, Fielder is owed 50% more money. But what’s an extra $70MM between friends, amirite?
Is Fielder better than Crawford right now? Probably, even if you project a bounceback to a 4-win player on Crawford’s part. But I’d bet on Crawford to age better, and, more importantly, he’s owed a shit-ton less money.
by abbreviatedman on Jan 27, 2012 11:35 AM EST reply actions
This.
A thousand times this.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I think we need to take a moment to see how we've all been fooled
Pitting Crawford against Fielder has finally given the @OverTheMonster community a reason to back Carl.
-Marc Nomandin’s twitter moments ago.
This was just an attempt by the aliens to create unity among us, presumably to somehow continue the invasion, and if I’ve learned anything in the movies, it’s that you cannot let the aliens win.
So in an effort to continue our disunity, vote Fielder now and thwart the aliens’ plans.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Joseph Vincent Paterno 12/21/26 - 1/22/12 RIP Coach
Penn State Forever
All things being equal, I'd rather have Prince
we just don’t have anywhere to play him.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 27, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
It's too late!
It already worked. I have the information I need.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Jan 27, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Way to go guys...
I am Sandy's bitch.
Joseph Vincent Paterno 12/21/26 - 1/22/12 RIP Coach
Penn State Forever
Oh, I saw right through it.
However, as a Crawford supporter, I’m on board with the tactic!
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Prince Fielder
…will provide more WAR in a single batting practice session, then Crawford will provide all next year.
This calls for an animated GIF!!

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Spectacular defense?
I don’t recall much “spectacular” defense by Crawford last year. Who can forget the ball that he let drop in the final game?
The players are so differnt it is difficult to compare them beyond the contracts. While I’m sure Fielder will be a DH in a few years, has he been injured much? I’m also interested to see if Fielder, or Pujols have the same new team/city adjustment issues as Crawford.
Over the last five years
Prince has played more games than anyone else in baseball.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 27, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
And that's great
He’s been very durable. But he’s had to work incredibly hard to stay in the shape he currently is in, and chances are good it will become too much sooner than later.
Being durable doesn’t mean he will still be good if he can’t stay in the kind of shape he’s in now.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Jan 27, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
And that's not a guarantee
But we’re talking about measuring risk. And denying he might fail is being blind to risk.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Jan 27, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
I was responding to Scoops question of if Prince had injury issues.
He hasn’t.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 27, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
re:
One misplayed ball does not a bad defender make. Unless you want to claim Pedroia, Gonzalez, Ellsbury, etc. are also horrific defenders by digging up an error they have made, too.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Jan 27, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
He was giving one example (and a glaring one)
of his less-than-spectacular defence.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
And a play, in particular, where he should have been selling out to make...
… not sliding in feet first and missing.
That play, for me, summed up his incredibly bad year. A big difference from cherry picking a solitary error by the other guys.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
He misplayed tons of balls last year
that is why all defensive metrics you can find from ones you dislike (UZR) to ones you might like more (like runs saved) he was below average last year down from elite in Tampa. Perhaps it is one year, and perhaps (and more troubling) Tampa knows where to have their players play in the field for each of their pitchers and each opposing player-something other teams don’t do. Many of these metrics don’t even account for things Carl does poorly-like throw or throw to the right base or use the cutoff man. Further, there is the obvious possibility that (as seemed obvious) Carl’s physical talents like speed would be negated by the smallness of Fenway’s LF. Regardless-the eye test said he looked worse in LF than 2009 Jason Bay.
And worse than Manny, who could at least throw the ball really well and get guys going to second.
Sad to see where Manny plays better LF in Fenway than one of the (arguably) best LF of his generation.
However, a lot of people have pointed out… LF in Fenway isn’t like LF anywhere else. Ted Williams wasn’t known for being a great defender, nor was Jason Bay. Mike Greenwell? I mean, there are some great hitters that played LF for Boston, and they had great arms.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
That's sort of the point of Fenway
you don’t need a RF and a LF, you need two RF, two guys with incredible arms that can pick those baserunners off second.
Carlos Quentin would have been an awesome defender in Fenway’s LF.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 28, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
I would take Crawford and run
Using projections and a contract calculator for both, I have Fielder at a net negative of 114 million, and Crawford at a net negative of 49 million.
According to that Aging Curve Chart
Carl Crawford is a fat-ass… at least that’s what his numbers look like so far entering his 30’s… totally fell off without warning.
One bad season isn't falling off
If he repeats it, then yes, start to worry.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Jan 27, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Marc-what do you actually expect of Crawford?
I think anything over a 2-3 WAR player is being simply blind to his obvious (and large sample) failings in his career away from the Trop. I am curious what value you would think is reasonable to estimate for him this season.
I think
that you’re being blind to the fact that you don’t just use one season to project perfomance.
We only have one season of Crawford in Boston to project upon
And it was absolute crap.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Joseph Vincent Paterno 12/21/26 - 1/22/12 RIP Coach
Penn State Forever
then why don't you
use park adjusted numbers from other seasons?
If you can find a stat that projects to Fenway only sure
Project away. We have stats that project how he might do in a park neutral environment. But I’m pretty sure they haven’t created BOSwOBA or BOSxFIP yet, or at least, it isn’t easily found.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Joseph Vincent Paterno 12/21/26 - 1/22/12 RIP Coach
Penn State Forever
We also have 8 seasons of shit performance at Fenway for Crawford's career.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 28, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
we have 590 plate appearances
don’t say 8 seasons. I’d bet you that using all 5290 PAs of his career and park adjusting them like I did at the bottom would be better than only using 590 at Fenway. And His 590 plate appearances had a .334 wOBA. His Career wOBA was .343. Why do you think he’s so bad at Fenway? It’s because of last season, he was fine at Fenway every other year.
I've said since last January he would suck at Fenway.
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 28, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
And guess what? I was right
based on 500 PA at Fenway. Where are your projection systems now?
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 28, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
you were right
but I bet it wont happen for next year
I can't take that bet
he’ll put up a .300 even OBP, and you’ll claim victory because “Hey, he was better.”
"There's something out there, beyond the horizon in the corner of your eye. I'm going to find out what it is."
-Thomas Solomon, Gentleman Adventurer.
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 28, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
did you not get the point that he was never a very productive hitter outside of the Trop?
Or that playing 81 games in a LF that is very small is not going to accentuate his ability to save runs BY ANY METRIC you like? If I thought he was going to be like last year I would say he would be a 0 WAR player. He is a 330 wOBA/8 UZR/150 type of guy given the environment-and that is a 2.5-3.5 WAR guy. Isn’t is smarter to use his career road stats than a projection that took 2 career years in the Trop into account?
Crawford and Maddon
Gotta go with Carl but use him like Joe did in Tampa. Can’t use him like the Sox did even when he got on and have him mostly standing around. You got to have him run and get things going. Think Bobby V will do that and Carl will bounce back and be the beast he was in Tampa.
You're right,
Once he starts trying to get on base with the intention of running, he’ll relax and start hitting. He should be running all the time.
Okay
we know that each season has 80% of the significance of the season before in projecting future performance. It’s better to use all the players years, not just the last three or four years. Using this, Crawford’s WAR/650 PAs should be 3.9. That is very good. He should have a 109 wRC+ and a 10.3 UZR. Using this with Fielder, Fielder should have a 142 wRC+, but also a -5.2 UZR and overall a 3.7 WAR/150, not only does Crawford have a much better contract, he’s also a much better player.

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