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Around SBN: Win or Lose, Boston Celtics' New Big 3 Era A Success

The asking prices have come down significantly for veteran FA starters: Oswalt (said to be at $8m), Kuroda (10-11m), Edwin Jackson."

And this is exactly why waiting out the market is okay.

4 months ago Twitter_eb_2_tiny Marc Normandin 45 comments 1 recs  | 

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When it works.

Which it hasn’t yet.

We can be cocky when we sign someone.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Jan 13, 2012 1:19 PM EST reply actions  

But it also hasn't *not* worked yet.

But since the price is dropping, it’s worked more than it hasn’t to this point. The end result could be different, but as of right now, not the case.

by Marc Normandin on Jan 13, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

The price is dropping

meaning more teams could get in on the action.

The goal is to get the pitcher. We haven’t gotten the pitcher, so there’s no proof that this “plan” is working.

this is exactly why waiting out the market is okay.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Jan 13, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

That the price has dropped isn't proof?

The goal is to get the pitcher.

But the plan is a two parter:
1) Let the price drop
2) Sign the pitcher

It would appear that the first step has succeeded.

by John Leary on Jan 13, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

At this point it's getting down to nit-picking on words.

Bloggy’s point (and he can correct me if I’m wrong) is that the plan is to get the pitcher at a lower price but the plan is to get the pitcher. If Roy signs with Boston at a lower price than he wanted two months ago, the plan of waiting out the market is a success.

If they don’t end up signing him because another team jumped in only when the price dropped, then it was not a success because again, the goal here is to get the pitcher. Since dropping the price likely increases competition, waiting out the market to get a lower price on the pitcher still is only viewed as a success if we sign the pitcher. You can split it into two pieces if you would like, but Bloggy is looking at it from the end point which is really what matters.

As any analogies this isn’t a perfect one…but I bought a laptop over the holiday season. I waited out the market and saw one at a good price, but I wanted to wait it out to see if it would drop. End of story is that they went out of stock, but i needed to get one for my wife for Christmas and I ended up having to settle for something else because I waited too long. My plan failed.

Again, this is all just nit-picking from different viewpoints. Waiting out the market to get a better price only works if you act on the better price.

by The Name is Dalton on Jan 13, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly.

Thanks.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Jan 13, 2012 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

"Plan" and "goal" are not synonymous.

A plan is how you intend to go about achieving a goal.

In this instance, for the reason I outlined, the plan does, in fact, appear to be working (if the plan is wait out for the prices to drop to obtain a pitcher). Yet, it’s fair to say that the plan may not ultimately work, leading to the goal not be met.

I understand Bloggy’s greater point, which was made clear in the first comment; that the plan may not work, but to say that it is not working, is incorrect.

by John Leary on Jan 13, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

The quote was:
this is exactly why waiting out the market is okay.

Nothing has worked yet. So it is not “okay”.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Jan 13, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh

If we could outbid them and he still didn’t want to come, we couldn’t do anything about it. If we can’t outbid them, then we can’t do anything about that. Lowering the price has no real costs except inasmuch as it gets more teams involved, which will either bid the price back up, or give him an “escape hatch” if he doesn’t want to come to Boston.

But really, we can’t bank on getting players who don’t want to play in Boston.

by Sologub on Jan 13, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

So, then, what does that have to do with "the process"?

Nothing in your comment touches on any of my points, really. The fact that we haven’t signed him/Oswalt/whoever is what matters in the present tense. Every second that we don’t sign a quality pitcher is an opportunity that another team signs him.

So to say, “Whoopie, his price is lower” means nothing if we aren’t the ones that sign him at a lower price. Which we haven’t done…which we do not have strong reason to believe we are about to do.

I’ve said nothing about players who don’t want to play in Boston or whatever…it’s irrelevant.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Jan 13, 2012 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, I'll try to be more clear

What I’m trying to say is that bringing the price down is an absolute good. The only reason I could see to argue against the process of bringing the price down would be the argument that, with more teams involved, it’s more likely that the FA will go to those teams. However, there is an absolute maximum price the Red Sox will pay (it seems), and if that price is less than or equal to another team, and the FA goes to another team, there’s nothing the Red Sox can do. If the Red Sox offer more money than another team, and the FA goes elsewhere, there’s also nothing the Sox can do.

By waiting out the market, as Marc says, the price has gone down, putting these pitchers more into the price range of the Red Sox, and saving money. It’s better than, say, dropping 12 million on Oswalt in November, or two years 26 million on Kuroda.

The process of waiting for FAs and thus bringing down the price is a good tactic, regardless of whether we get the FA or not, because we wouldn’t have gotten the FA at a higher, unaffordable price either.

by Sologub on Jan 13, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

So really Bloggy just should’ve said that it is not proof that it is okay (and it’s not proof that it isn’t okay, of course) rather than it is not proof that is working. I think we are all far too bored with this offseason to be nit-picking on this.

by The Name is Dalton on Jan 13, 2012 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

And that is not meant to be snarky.

It’s fine to say he should’ve worded it differently. But I guess I agree with him that it isn’t proof of Marc’s point and I knew what he was saying in both posts. It really isn’t proof that it is okay but it is proof the price dropped.

Either way, it is good news his price went down. That we can all agree on, especially if it makes Ben & Co. pull the trigger.

by The Name is Dalton on Jan 13, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

So, just curious...

… but with the Yankees moves today, do you still think the “plan” is working?

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til THIS year!

by AlohaSox on Jan 14, 2012 3:53 AM EST up reply actions  

"But it also hasn't *not* worked yet."

Yeah, so, you were saying.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Jan 14, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

right

if we keep waiting long enough, we can see just exactly how little we’re unwilling to spend to make it so we have a competitive team

by wolf9309 on Jan 14, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

If we're waiting to get Oswalt for Maholm money

we might as well get used to having Daniel Bard in the rotation.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 14, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Fine, Bard AND Aceves

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 15, 2012 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't get cocky, kid.

The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.

by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 13, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

If Han Solo were real...

….would he be better than 2011 John Lackey?

by The Name is Dalton on Jan 13, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I was going to answer...

… but I now have a mental image of him shooting John Lackey under the table in the Mos Eisley Cantina on infinite loop. It’s like porn in practically every way.

The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.

by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 13, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Han shot first.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Jan 13, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I imagine him shooting him before he even sits down...

“Oonta g-BLAM!”

The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.

by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 13, 2012 5:39 PM EST up reply actions  

How prophetic...

From where we sit right now, I don’t feel so good.

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til THIS year!

by AlohaSox on Jan 14, 2012 3:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Yup. That's pretty much what I was sayin' right there.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Jan 14, 2012 6:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Jon Heyman is here to ruin the day!
#redsox not expecting to offer guaranteed deals to free-agent pitchers. kuroda/oswalt unlikely. padilla, others more likely

I am Sandy's bitch.

Penn State Forever

by Rogue Nine on Jan 13, 2012 5:03 PM EST reply actions  

Haven't we established...

… that Jon Heyman’s twitter account is essentially the incoherent drunk at the end of the bar rambling about how he woulda been an alternate on the 2008 Olympic team, except for bullshit politics between slurred obscenities and belches more appropriately described as mouth-farts?

Making Alex Speier his teenaged son who gets sent by his mother to bring him home.

The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.

by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 13, 2012 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

In that scenario, I guess I'm his mistress?

And totally believe him when he says he’s going to turn everything around.

I am Sandy's bitch.

Penn State Forever

by Rogue Nine on Jan 13, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey, you said that, not me.

;-)

The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.

by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 13, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Heyman is reliable when he's talking about a done deal.

That’s all I’ll say there.

The Sox have been “in” on Kuroda for a long time. No way they expected to get him non-guaranteed.

Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
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by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

And yet...

Funny how it turned out.

If Oswalt signs with Texas…

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til THIS year!

by AlohaSox on Jan 14, 2012 3:58 AM EST up reply actions  

As if last year wasn't embarrassing enough...

….the fact that we won’t even sign real pitchers to guaranteed deals just embarrasses us fans even more.

God, what a joke.

My Twitter @totheights

by totheights on Jan 13, 2012 5:40 PM EST reply actions  

I have been patient this offseason up until this stage in the negotiating process

You’ve gotten two good pitchers down to one year with a lowered asking price. If you’ve already determined you’ll go over the CBT limit this year, there should be nothing holding the team back from signing Kuroda or Oswalt.

I understand the benefit of resetting the CBT rate and think the team should certainly plan on doing that at least once in the upcoming years. The Yankees, according to Starks, are aiming to do this in 2014 when the limit goes up to $189M. But these are ONE-YEAR DEALS we’re talking about. They do no damage to the long terms goals of the franchise, and just one of them would make such a huge difference in the upcoming year. I wouldn’t be able to understand passing up on these opportunities.

by steel sox on Jan 13, 2012 6:23 PM EST reply actions  

I agree.

And I still maintain that the fact that Kuroda is off the market pushes Oswalt’s asking price up, but what do I know. If he signs for $8 million with the Sox, all better.

If he signs for $8 million (or more) somewhere else? Well…

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til THIS year!

by AlohaSox on Jan 14, 2012 3:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Great news!

/buys 12 more relievers

by Sean O on Jan 13, 2012 7:31 PM EST reply actions  

What say you now Normandin?

What. Say. You. Now.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 14, 2012 8:41 AM EST reply actions  

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