Do The Red Sox Need A Kuroda?
As the winter drags on, Red Sox fans may find that their patience is running thin. After the second straight season which saw the Sox finish out of the playoffs, the front office hasn't done much to actually improve on last year's team.
Certainly, there has been activity. Ben Cherington has impressed with his ability to fill out a bullpen losing at least one key member without spending too much in either prospects or payroll, and as much as the situation in right field isn't exciting, the idea of platooning Ryan Sweeney and, say, Mike Aviles isn't all that unattractive on paper.
That being said, all this is mostly patchwork, fixing the holes that opened up as the offseason progressed. Meanwhile, the one glaring hole from 2011 remains: starting pitching. To be sure, the Sox have signed their fair share of starters since October, but none of them are the sort who deserve a guaranteed position in the starting lineup.
To me, there seem to be three tiers of pitchers available to the Red Sox:
1) The Silvas -- Reclamation projects and minor league depth who could get themselves fixed up and provide value if everything goes right for them and wrong for the team. Less an Andrew Miller than a Kevin Millwood. Carlos Silva, Aaron Cook,and likely Vicente Padilla fit into this category.
2) The Saunders -- Back-end starters who will need a major league deal and can typically be counted on for average results. These are your Joe Saunders, Jon Garlands, and Jeff Francis (Franci?) of the world.
3) The Kurodas -- The top tier free agents who could actually add a serious punch to the rotation, but at the cost of an 8-digit contract. Hiroki Kuroda and Edwin Jackson are the prime candidates, but Roy Oswalt also falls here despite the more serious concerns about his health.
For the past few months, we've mostly been clambering for a Kuroda, and lamenting the signing of so many Silvas. Now, for what it's worth, there's no reason to complain about signing depth pitchers until Ben Cherington decides that he's got enough mediocre options that he doesn't need an average-good one, but I can see where the concern is coming from. Meanwhile, a good few of us have been dreading the day when we announce the signing of a Saunders, expecting that it will mean just that to our new GM, and that the Kurodas will be off the table.
But should we really be so worried about the Saunders, or can we get by without a Kuroda?
On the one hand, we are talking about a team that, right now, is fundamentally the same as last year's. Papelbon is out, Bailey is in--not quite a wash, but probably not too much of a loss. Melancon for Bard also grades out fairly evenly, while Bard will have done more than anyone not named Buchholz, Beckett, Lester, and Bedard did last year if he can provide even a little value in the rotation. The lineup, meanwhile, should stay the same but for the aforementioned change in right field. So with the team having missed out by all of one game, why are we all so dead set on the need for a big addition?
A big part of it has to be regression, and a bias towards the negative side of it. If we poll the site, I have a feeling that more readers would expect Beckett and Ellsbury regress towards their old selves than would expect to see Carl Crawford put up 5 WAR or Kevin Youkilis look like he did in 2010.
Another issue lies in the idea that any pitcher who fell into that Saunders category elsewhere faces a tall task in maintaining that level of production in Fenway Park going up against the AL East. We've seen plenty of good pitchers flounder in these cozy confines of ours, and when you've only got three starters locked in, finding someone who isn't going to explode on entry is kind of a priority. It's why I'm pretty worried about Saunders, for instance.
Ideally the Sox would be able to shoot for the middle ground: a guy who can come into Fenway, not break the bank, and put up a 4.25 ERA--someone between the Saunders and the Kuroda. Frankly, I think that's what Paul Maholm was, but what's done is done, and those options seem to have gone by the wayside.
So can we live with only a Saunders? I'm tempted to say yes, and mostly because of depth. Last year the Sox had Kevin Millwood, Andrew Miller, Tim Wakefield and Kyle Weiland as their backup options. This year there's Carlos Silva, Aaron Cook, and (possibly) Vicente Padilla to go with Alex Wilson. On the whole, I think that's a crop of players more likely to be able to hold down the fort in emergencies, if not with quite the same upside as Miller perhaps had. This is an offense which can pull through mediocre starts so long as they're not the nightmares Lackey so often provided us with last year.
All of this, of course, is to forget Bard, who has the highest upside of all of them, and is something of a fresh look on the mound--neither proven nor unproven, unless you choose to focus on the different pitcher he was five years ago.
As Marc has so often pointed out to me in our conversations on the subject, the Red Sox were all of one win away last year, and they had two-and-a-half starters then too. Add to that the curiosities of scheduling and do away with some of the streakiness of the offense, and there's reason to think we may not even be in need of that one extra win of value next year.
This isn't an endorsement of any pitcher in particular--much less Saunders--because the consideration of how they'll perform in Fenway against the Yankees et al. could make a Saunders seem like a Silva, and the Sox certainly aren't looking to replace Andrew Miller with someone who's going to pitch about as well as Andrew Miller. But if they can find a pitcher who can produce that 4.50 ERA, then it's probably enough to get the job done--especially with the Yankees facing even more regression concerns than us, and the Rays having holes of their own to fill.
Of course, a Kuroda would be a fantastic addition, and one that would make the fanbase as a whole feel a lot better about things. But for now, I'd caution you all from stepping off the ledge if one doesn't come, because last year we were dealing with Silvas for nearly half of our starts. Even just cutting back on that could be all it takes.
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Good Article
I don’t know if you’re forgetting but we still have Miller(who has been training with Cliff Lee) and Aceves along with the aforementioned backup options. I honestly think we’re better off right now in terms of depth than what we had to start last season, with Dice-K likely coming back mid-season and looking to earn his next contract.
One thing I would consider is using a six-man rotation for this team, with so many injury-prone guys or recently converted relievers. I don’t know how practical that actually is but personally I think it’d be useful for us.
Until Miller proves himself with an amazing performance in Pawtucket, I'm counting him out.
As for Aceves, I’ve taken to avoiding his name when talking about the rotation. I think he’s perfect for the role he’s in, and completely wild as a starter. I recognize it’s an option, but I’m of the mind that his being stretched out for ST is half to appease fans, and half to help him in his “super-relief” role.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
I think their is a very good possibility that Daniel Bard is the Kuroda we all want.
I am not going to go into the specifics too much, because I talked enough about that already in Matt’s comment thread and in great length here but i would guess the Sox front office feels the same. I would still love to see Kuroda signed to a reasonable deal, so that Ace can still play swing man/uber reliever and we don’t have to depend on a Cook or Silva (at least not by design anyway).
That said, I oppose the middle option most now that Maholm is off the table. Joe Saunders doesn’t impress me at all and if the team has to pay for a fifth starter like that, I’d prefer to have a Spring Training competition yield the top candidate, be it Miller, Doubront, Wilson, Cook or Silva (or Germano or Ranuado or Duckworth or Heager anyone who isn’t Vicente Padilla really).
- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
http://www.rantsports.com/boston-red-sox/
by Mattsullivan on Jan 13, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
Production-wise, Bard may be Kuroda.
To spring from that thought though, there’s still a significant need to eat some innings. I could get on board with bringing in a more established starter at the right price to suit that need.
In the price doesn’t drop sufficiently, then a case could be made for throwing the arms assembled at the wall until something sticks, or a starter is made available on the trade market during the season.
Miller training with Cliff Lee cracks me up.
Cliff probably looks at Miller like he has two heads. I imagine that training session always ends with Cliff Lee yelling, “What the fack is wrong with you? Throw strikes!”
by cds7c on Jan 13, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, Lee's control is ridiculous.
He never walks anyone. Did he ever have the wildness that Miller has shown?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Not to his extent
He had around a 4 BB/9 in his first full season and cut it down to 2.3-2.6 the next two years. Had a rough year in ’07 when he was sent to the minors for awhile and has been absolutely filthy control wise the last four years.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 14, 2012 8:43 AM EST up reply actions
Kind of unfair
I’d say Miller has improved two years in a row, and really did have a pretty great season in Pawtucket, just failed to adjust on the fly to major league pitching. In any case, at this point I’d still consider him better depth than Silva or Padilla. As for Aceves, I agree he is better suited for a “super-relief” role but then again, Bard is probably better suited for a relief role as well, while Aceves actually has experience starting major league games.
I’m just saying, while they’re coming to ST as starters on paper, they should be considered potential depth at this point, since we’re not coaches and can only guess at what their eventual roles will be.
Miller improved? He was better in 2008 and 2009.
And his season in Pawtucket may not have seen many runs, but only for the last three-or-so starts did he stop walking everyone.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jan 13, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
That's it?
All the other points are valid, but ok, my mistake he only improved off his 2010 season.
Adjust to the majors?
In his career, Miller has been given 96 appearances in the majors over 359.1 innings, including 66 starts. If he hasn’t adjusted yet…
And yet still just 26
Still a lefty, still throwing in the 90s…I’m not saying he’s suddenly going to be an all-star, I just think he’s nice depth to have for ST, yeesh I can’t believe I’m meeting so much resistance here
Sure. I agree.
It’s another arm. Maybe they can find a use for him out of bullpen, or maybe the light goes on. We’re past the point of making excuses for him though.
Seems like this is his last chance
I don’t see them keeping him around in Pawtucket(if he even has options left?) so I’m guessing unless he wows in spring training, he will most likely be released anyways. But he seems like a smart enough and talented enough guy that it could be possible.
Also what I meant by adjusting, remember the Sox won the first 4 games he started, then he stumbled from there and never got back on track.
How old was Randy Johnson when he figured it out?
Honest question… too tired to look it up.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Johnson wasn't even in the majors until he was 26 (not counting 25 innings in '88)
Had 4 wild years and then was able to knock it down to a respectable 3-3.7 until he went to Arizona where he dropped it down below 3. So around 30 was when he really got his control to a good (good when you’re striking out 12 per 9innings) level.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 14, 2012 8:47 AM EST up reply actions
Good, so Miller will get his control back after Cherington gets fired and we're competitive again.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 14, 2012 9:00 AM EST up reply actions
However I hesitate to compare anyone to Johnson
Or to use him as an indication that Miller will turn it around. Johnson was still managing good ERAs when he was walking 6+ a game because he was mowing down MLB hitters.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 14, 2012 9:03 AM EST up reply actions
Upside
The problem with Miller is that his upside period is soon to expire. He has been consistantly awful for all his career. He will tease with a good game now and then and then revert to….well,not very good. If he ends up having to play much of a role on this team, we are in trouble.
I would have been completely confident
In miller as the seventh inning guy. I would love to see his stuff for only one inning.
As opposed to those SP outings that only lasted an inning.
by Sean O on Jan 13, 2012 6:31 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
The rotation is better already...
No Lackey starts,
No Dice-K starts (not for quite awhile anyway),
No Weiland starts,
No Wakefield starts,
No Miller starts (unless he really shows something new and special to win a spot – highly unlikely, but good for us if he does).
Meanwhile, even if you assume a regression in Beckett, we also assume progress for Buchholz.
For the final two spots we have:
Bard, Aceves, Silva, Cook, Wilson, Padilla(?), and almost certainly at least one more down the road. Again, the law of averages finds two of those six+ to be better than the Lackey, Dice-K, Weiland, Wakefield, Miller gang that couldn’t throw straight last year.
The law of averages has taken a gigantic dump of the Red Sox lately.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Penn State Forever
Beckett, ellsbury, Ortiz...
You make your own luck.
by Sean O on Jan 13, 2012 6:29 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
A Good Point
Never looked at it quite that way. In other words, it can’t get any worse then it was. And, whether you like him or not, we have a new manager and this team needed one. Valentine will bring enthusiam to the team. Am a bit worried about his yapping to the press so much. He should be more stealth.
If your'e not improving, your'e going backwards
I’m also optimistic that Melancon/Bailey will provide a good backend bullpen, but losing one of the best closers of the past 5 years and one of the best setup guys (Bard) from the bullpen in the same offseason is cause for some concern. I would have preferred the Sox leaving Bard in the pen and signing a Kuroda for #4 and hold a bake-off for #5.
Bard could be a decent #4/5 starter, but as I have mentioned on other threads, we can’t count on him for more than 160 innings or so. If they have two low-inning starters in the rotation, we have not improved on Dice-K/Lackey. This is why I belive the Sox should make every effort to sign Kuroda or maybe Saunders to provide some proven innings.
And I wanted Maholm and Oswalt...
… so maybe you and I can compromise and agree on Oswalt and Saunders?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Won't happen
we’re not going to compete this year.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 14, 2012 8:42 AM EST up reply actions
pitching
This article seems reasonable….providing Becket and Lester don’t injure themselves fighting over the last piece of fried chicken,or the last bottle of beer in the clubhouse……..winning isn’t everything
Winning Isn't Everything
Another way to put it is winning is not required. Just stay competitive. That’s all you need to do.
Fans will flock to the park, and they know it.
It's going to be a long summer without
one of Jackson/Oswalt/Kuroda or a trade.
Team needs another solid starter, too many question marks.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Oswalt and Jackson
First, they will not sign Oswalt or Jackson. Even if they do, it doesn’t match up with what the Yankees did. Don’t be surprized if Montero turns out to be another overly hyped Yankee prospect.
More Silvas
Since I don’t see us competing, why waste more money?
by Sean O on Jan 13, 2012 6:27 PM EST via Android app reply actions
At This Point
you are right. Chances of a WS in Boston this year are zero. Might as well put Ellsbury, Gonzalez,and anyone else on the block.
I still don't understand why no-one takes a good look at Gavin Floyd.
Chicago is in rebuilding Mode.
Floyd will give the Sx Innings
He is a borderline top line Pitcher with a 1.16 Whip
he was 6-3 against the AL East last year, 2-0 against the Sox, 5-0 Career, at least the wouldn’t have to face him again for a while.
He has good stuff. He is an 8 year veteran at 28, in his prime.
With a defense behind him he would probably have a decidedly winning record.
Down side was he had a losing record by a one game difference.
He gave up 22 Home Runs in 180+ Innings.
He may be slated as the Ace of the White Sox Staff this season…. if not he might be available for a couple of prospects and cash.
Why do you not look into him Ben, Why, Why Why. I think he is potentially the best dea the Sox could make.
Because we're not competing.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 13, 2012 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
I've been saying that.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 14, 2012 8:43 AM EST up reply actions
I think because we don't have a lot of prospects to give up.
So, if we’re not spending money, we don’t really have the prospects to spend either.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
As i said in the other thread
You bring up his record against the AL East but it is not a true indication of his performance. He has done well against us (so getting him would be nice in that regard), he had 2 very good starts against TB and he got absolutely shelled by NY and Baltimore but managed wins because wins are an opportunistic stat in many ways.
Now, don’t take that the wrong way. I still would go for him if the price is right because the rest of what you say is valid. He has good stuff, has been around for a few years, will give us innings, etc. But you can’t just keep relying on W-L record because it is just not a good measure of success. Not to the people here, and not to baseball as a whole. Felix Hernandez won a Cy Young and is regarded as a top pitcher in the league despite his W-L record. You were on the right path with stats like WHIP. After that, I suggest checking out Fangraphs.com and learning more about some of the advanced stats. Even ones like BB/9, K/9, K/BB, Fly Ball %, Ground Ball % all give a better indication and aren’t too complicated to understand.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 14, 2012 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry about the spelling.
The problem with being a bad typist trying to type fast.
I'd be perfectly happy with Oswalt on a one year deal for $8 million.
I honestly believe he’d be worth Beltre like value, trying to prove that he deserves a 3 year deal next offseason.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
yup
can still be the best deal of the offseason. Get him before Texas has a chance to decide that they should sign him instead of Darvish.
Right.
At this point, screw patience.
There isn’t much quality left, we aren’t signing Jackson… so let’s do the one year deal and get it done now. No more waiting.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
Their are many ways to come
Under the luxtax cap. Work with Papi for a 2×10 with option, make good offers to arb-eligibles with extra year and option(where appropriate) for smaller annual $$, trade Scutaro ( I HATE saying that) for a pitcher and let Punto and later Iglesias make a difference on defense, renegotiate with A.Miller with plus incentives or release him (depending on how he is doing with c.Lee). Save enuff to sign Oswalt. Do NOT let Theo screw the team in a trade for Garza. Oswalt can come in under the cap. He’s all we need.
I've said this for a few weeks now.
As long as we sign Kuroda/Oswalt and someone like Maholm/Saunders (no, I don’t really want Saunders), I’ll be happy with this team.
However, in all honesty, Oswalt (not Garza) is the solution this team needs, imho.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til THIS year!
well they're pretty certainly not gonna get both
but Oswalt would be freakin nice now.
Garza would be great, depending on the cost. Probably, in my mind, I’d make everyone available for him except Middlebrooks.
Garza
may be their only chance to make the playoffs. Still not enough to put them over the top. Theo has already done so much damage to Chicago, you may as well try to get Garza and hope that he will make it an interesting season,if nothing else. Since Theo has put the Cubs into another rebuilding phase, they really should trade Garza.

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