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OK, OTM, Let's Talk Daniel Bard

Starting this article feels a bit like trying to explain something to your parents that you've been avoiding for a long time.

In an off season marked by front office turn over and not much else, the potential move of ace reliever Daniel Bard to the starting rotation has been the most controversial among discussion points that would make a '50s sitcom look like a another Kevin Costner golf movie [author's note: this was the most vile, contemptible, and disgusting thing that came to mind].

Moving Bard to the rotation has been panned by several well known and highly respected writers including Rany Jazayerli at Grantland and Cliff Corcoran at SI.com. It's not been the most popular idea in the comments section here, either. It wouldn't surprise me if somewhere out there existed a small stuffed doll with "Matt Kory" written on it in sharpie and a butter knife in its back.

Yet, despite a pain in my neck that I just can't seem to shake, I'm in favor of it. I have reasons for thinking this way, of course, just as the above mentioned articles had reasons to be against it. There is nothing wrong with friendly disagreement though, so let's talk, OTM. Let's lay this out. I'll tell you why I think moving Bard to the rotation, or at least trying it out, is a good idea. You tell me why you agree or disagree in the comments. OK? OK.

Let's have at it!

(After the jump, of course.)

Star-divide

The value of a decent starter is much greater than that of a good reliever.

In the abstract, I'm in favor of moves like this. Whether we're talking Red Sox, Astros, Braves, or whatever, moving players where they can provide the most value to the team is a strong idea. That's what it's all about, right? Teams have to maximize the value (i.e. runs, hits, defense, etc.) they get from their players. If Daniel Bard, or Alexi Ogando, or Lance Berkman, or whomever can give his team a better chance to win more games by doing something different I'm all for it.

The Red Sox have a roster with three starting pitchers that we'd like to see get the ball. After that it's Carlos Silva or Aaron Cook. Fine human beings, I'm sure, and fine for sixth/seventh starter types (good for that, actually) but I think we'd all admit there is a bit of room for improvement there.

At the same time, the team has an abundance of relievers. The additions of Mark Melacon and Andrew Bailey along with a potentially healthy Bobby Jenks (I said potentially!!!) give the Red Sox legitimate end of the game options. I wouldn't call it an embarrassment of riches exactly, but it sure isn't a bad group by any stretch. With Daniel Bard it's even stronger of course, but they could sure survive without Bard. So why not take from a strength and give to a weakness?

The bonus is that Bard can provide more value to the Red Sox in a starter's role. Because starters pitch so much more often than relievers do, they have that opportunity to impact the team's season on a greater scale. After all, relievers are uniformly failed starting pitchers. Every major league reliever has at some point in his baseball career started. But, that doesn't go both ways as good starting pitchers don’t get moved to the bullpen. Not ever. Think about it for a second and the reason becomes fairly obvious. It isn’t about the value of the first or third inning over the ninth, or bunk about mental strength or intensity. It’s simply about quantity. A good starting pitcher will throw 200 or more innings whereas a reliever isn’t likely to break 80. The lack of innings severely limits the impact a reliever can have. For a reliever to be as valuable as a starter, you have to believe that the 8th and 9th innings are always at least three times more valuable than every other inning. And that just isn’t the case.

For example, look at Fan Graphs fWAR stat (Wins Above Replacement; you can read more about it here). In a nutshell, they calculate the number of wins a player, any player, provides to their team over what a freely available AAA-quality fill-in would. To give you some context, last season Roy Halladay threw 233 innings of 2.35 ERA ball. That (with all the peripheral stats, the ballpark, the run environment, and a bunch of other things calculated in) equates to 8.2 fWAR, the highest of any pitcher in baseball.

To find the first reliever on the list of highest fWAR from last season, you have to scroll down to 42nd on the list where Atlanta’s Craig Kimbrel sits with 3.2. Why are the best relievers so far down the list? fWAR is a cumulative stat like RBIs or Hits. The more you play the more you (can) get. Because relievers don't play nearly as much as starters, they simply can’t be as valuable. In effect, their usage doesn't allow them to be.

Moving Daniel Bard to the rotation (or at least giving it the old college try) gives one of the better pitchers on the team a chance to have a greater impact on the club's fortunes. That's a good thing.

It's worked in the recent past.

A few examples:

  • Alexi Ogando of the Rangers started only three of 59 games in the minor leagues but the Rangers converted him to starting last season anyway. He started 29 games, accumulating 3.6 fWAR.
  • T. C.J. Wilson had been a reliever with the Texas Rangers for parts of five seasons before the team converted him to the rotation. In 2010, his first year starting, he accumulated a very good 4.6 fWAR and last season he beat that with 5.9. Before starting, Wilson’s entire five-year career had been worth 3.3 fWAR. In one season as a starter he was more valuable to the Rangers than in his five seasons in relief. Sure, part of that is because Wilson pitched well as a starter and was only mediocre out of the bullpen, but it illustrates the point that relievers simply can’t provide the value that starters can.
  • It doesn't always work though. The Tigers tried to convert Phil Coke from relieving to starting but had to move Coke back to the bullpen mid season. But, even by pitching well enough to lose his spot in the rotation, Coke threw 108 innings and was worth 2.0 fWAR on the season (both starting and relieving). That was more than he’d been worth over his three-year career to that point.

So it can work and it has worked. It has also failed, but even that failure wasn't awful. Coke provided value to the Tigers by holding down a rotation spot for some portion of the season, then he re-converted back to the bullpen and did... well, he was still Phil Coke, put it that way.

Daniel Bard, Pitcher

This is the part where things get a bit complicated and subjective. I'm not telling tales out of school when I say the Red Sox front office should analyze the markets for starters and relievers, their roster, their future roster, and their salary situation both now and in coming years. They should combine that information with scouting reports on Bard. Can he master more than two pitches effectively enough to succeed multiple times through the order? Is he an abnormally large injury risk? Does he have the mentality to start? Is he enthusiastic about a change in roles? All these questions and countless more are thrown into a cauldron from which the team makes a decision.

Personally, when looking at Bard the pitcher, where he's come from, his journey through the minors, and how he's pitched at the major league level, I see a guy who could succeed in a starting role. But I don't know that. You might disagree, but you can't be certain either. As Jason Wojciechowski recently reminded us at Baseball Prospectus, saying we don't know isn't a bad thing. That is, unless we do know, but are just refusing to say.

* * *

So that's where I stand, OTM. It's good to try new things, it's good to maximize assets, it's good to strengthen up weak parts of the roster by taking from stronger parts where the hit is less likely to be felt. It's worked in the past. I have confidence that if it doesn't work or the make-up of the roster changes drastically between now and Opening Day or what have you, this front office is smart enough to realize it and make the proper alterations in course.

Register your vote and let me know what you think in the comments.

Poll
Do you think it is a good idea for the Red Sox to try to make Daniel Bard a starting pitcher?
Yes. If he can, Bard should start.
494 votes
No. Bard should stay in the bullpen.
121 votes
I am a sad clown.
61 votes

676 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 205 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Comments

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I agree with you completely.

It’s a fairly simple concept. Put players in position to get the most value. It’s not as thought the Sox can’t move him back to the bullpen if this doesn’t work out.

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion

by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 7:50 AM EST reply actions  

Also

It’s C.J. Wilson, not T.J.

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion

by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 7:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Obviously...

… Kory’s inherent subconscious precognition is recoiling from the future spectacle of Bard’s Tommy John surgery. Pencil it in for June 17th, 2012.

The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.

by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Don't be dumb..

..Sox will have him try and pitch through the torn ligaments of course. Oct.10th, 2012.

by Dale Sams on Jan 11, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

at which point he'll alienate himself

by going to arizona for rehab, and staying away from the club….

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

FixedI

Thanks

Writer at Over The Monster. Follow me on Twitter! It'll be super awesome fun! @mattymatty2000

by Matthew Kory on Jan 11, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

It sure can

when his low-stamina arm falls off into the field boxes.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 8:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Injury is inherent to pitching.

The potential upside of this move outweighs the injury risk.

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion

by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 8:39 AM EST up reply actions  

That is only true

if the likelihood of success is high…or at least 50-50.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Jan 11, 2012 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

15 votes for, 3 against

I didn’t know so many Yankees fans visited OTM.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 8:09 AM EST reply actions  

The silent majority

Not everyone that disagrees with you posts here.

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion

by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 8:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Many people here

Don’t want to ruin bard’s career foolishly.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 9:02 AM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Well, I didn't vote

there’s no “I’d rather have him start than Carlos Silva, but at that point I’d just roll with a three man rotation and hope for the best.” option

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Kook-Aid

tastes good.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Jan 11, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

just want to get you on record here

On the assumption that we really commit with Bard as a starter (he pitches into Mid-May at the least), how likely is it in your mind that he provides MORE value to the Sox than he did in 2011?

Right now, my completely subjective sense is that Bard has a 60% chance of being worth more on this approach. Where would you put that %?

by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 11:28 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I'd say he has a high chance

Of ending his career, or doing irreparable damage.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 11:33 AM EST via Android app up reply actions  

70-80%- if he makes just 12 starts

and averages just 6 innings a start he would be a good bet to surpass his value in his best season as reliever. If he makes 20 starts is virtually a lock.

- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
www.spacemanspancakes.wordpress.com

by Mattsullivan on Jan 11, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

just to be clear

Your guesstimation is that there’s a 70-80% chance of Bard surpassing last seasons value. Mine is 60%.

SeanO’s at least seems to be that Bard has a better than 50% chance of a career ending injury. Which is a different question than I asked but informative just the same.

by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 12:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

2011 SP that matched Bard's fWAR of 1.8

P – G/IP/FIP
John Tomlin – 26/165/4.27
Tommy Hanson – 22/130/3.67
Bud Norris – 31/186/4.02

I think it’ll be tough, assuming he doesn’t go over 150 IP in the regular season. But he could reach the gray area where it’s all really the same anyway.

So, technically, 40%, but with some blurriness, 60%.

by John Leary on Jan 11, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not particularly for or against

It fully depends on how Bard feels, and whether or not he and the training staff think that his arm can handle all of those extra innings. You mentioned Phil Coke as your example of the transition not working, but Joba Chamberlain is the one who comes to mind for me. After he injured himself as a starter, he took a very long time to get back to where he once was as a reliever.

He could be very useful as a starter, but if it can only happen at the expense of his health then it’s not worth it.

by Aluminum Penguin on Jan 11, 2012 8:22 AM EST reply actions  

The Joba comp baffles me completely

Joba was NOT a reliever in any definite sense before he injured his shoulder. He pitched out of the bullpen during an approximate 40 inning late season call up after having spent the year starting in the minors. In Boston, another pitcher, a Mr. Clay Buchholz, did exactly the same thing. One major difference was Boston shut Buchholz down in the last few weeks of the season and the Yankees let Joba pitch into October. For both of these pitchers, the teams always wanted them in the starter role permanently. Joba’s bullpen success (and the BS that goes on on sports talk radio) created the controversy about having him start. It was never an matter of he is a reliever he need to stay in the bullpen. Joba was a very good starter until he injured his shoulder and that may have happened regardless of his role, thanks to his mechanics (which are rough on the shoulder by some accounts). Regardless, he was never really a reliever before his injury, like Buchholz, Phil Hughes, Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens and hundreds of other young pitchers, he was in the pen to get a taste of the bigs. It is rewriting history to say he was “converted” back to a starter.

Joba was also three very key years younger than Bard. Bard is beyond the point where he is at high risk for causing lasting damage to his shoulder. He could get injured, just as any other pitcher could, but there is no reason to believe it is a higher than normal risk. Pitching 80 or so bullpen innings requires pitching on erratic rest and is just as likely to cause serious injury as starting. Bard has not been an injury prone pitcher in that role, so I don’t see why he would become one given a regular schedule and pitch count limits.

- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
www.spacemanspancakes.wordpress.com

by Mattsullivan on Jan 11, 2012 9:48 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Did he pitch a lot of innings in previous years?

If so I apologize for my ignorance. I never followed him in the minor leagues, so I was only going by what I’ve seen in the majors, with him only finding real success in years where he’s thrown very few innings. I guess the point was that I value a few great innings more than a lot of mediocre ones PLUS an injury. If Bard is confident that extra innings doesn’t equal a big injury risk, then go for it.

by Aluminum Penguin on Jan 11, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Robbing Peter to Pay Paul

never really works, except on paper. I realize this is an experiment, and with those you have equal chances of failure and success. The thing that worries me, is how long are they willing to work the experiment? The reality is there were better proven options available, that would’ve made more sense than an experiment or idea, and I would’ve supported that more readily than an experiment. The potential to weaken, albeit for a specified time, both the rotation and the pen is more the issue for me. Bard hasn’t pitched Starter innings in quite some time, so the possibility of injury, shoulder fatigue, and ineffectiveness certainly rise, and i don’t think one off season is enough to take you from 80 to 200 innings+, even if others have done it- I don’t see it as the smart option.

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 8:45 AM EST reply actions  

Don't forget that, once again,

Bard was historically awful as starter. Whether you believe the mechanical changes made the difference or not, he was historically awful.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 8:55 AM EST via Android app up reply actions  

YEP- There's that, too!

Historically- betting on the longshots doesn’t always produce the big money ticket-

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 9:50 AM EST up reply actions  

I think at this point

his last 4 years as a reliever hold more predictive value than his 1 year of A-level ball as a starter from 5 years ago.

by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 11:32 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Why would it?

He was good as a reliever, he was godawful as a starter. Why does being good at one thing make him likely to be good at a fairly different thing, when he sucked at that fairly different thing before?

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 11:34 AM EST via Android app up reply actions  

my problem with your analysis

is it seems to all be stitched together with rhetorical questions

by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 11:38 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

8 era as a starter

Zero starter innings since then. Let’s make him a starter!111111

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 11:39 AM EST via Android app up reply actions  

He can replace Lackey!

The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.

by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

5 year old stats, against a different level of competition, at a different level of mental and physical development, can only go so far.

I’m just not even seeing a good faith acknowledgement from you that they have limited predictive value.

by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 12:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Were there no data

Then fine, relieving is best. If he was kind of meh, also ok. But he was simply atrocious, and nobody else seems to care.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 12:25 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

I care

even with the mechanics change. They changed his mechanics for a reason.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

It's true that they have limited predictive value...

… but less limited than any data suggesting he can be a worthwhile starter. As there is no such data unless one adds a generous helping of imagination and pixie-dust.

The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.

by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

It seems like it's a binary question to most...

…is his minor league starting failure relevant or not? The answer is somewhat, but in comparison to his relief pitching success, I would say it is not AS relevant.

It’s like some people think pitching in the bullpen and pitching as a starter are fundamentally different skills. They’re different for sure, but people make it seem like we’re converting Bard to play third base. Has there been any indication that starting pitchers are more prone to get injured than relief pitchers? It seems like pitchers just pretty much always get injured in general, with rare CCish exceptions.

A pitcher’s FIP tends to get worse as a starter vs. as a reliever, so we should expect some decline, and with Bard’s poor history as a starter (despite being long ago), maybe we should expect a somewhat bigger decline than normal, but it’s not like his FIP should be in the high 4.00’s.

by UltimateCranston on Jan 11, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

the ultimate question

is can he maintain or surpass his value to the team as a starter, versus the value he currently has as a known commodity in the bullpen, and the unfortunate answer is we won’t know until the experiment starts…and if experiment doesn’t work out- will it mess with his head that he also loses the value he had out of the pen….

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

old expression

taking resources from one commited source(Peter) to fulfill another more pressing commitment (Paul)…in this case taking known commodity from bullpen, possibly weakening that resource in order to bolster the starting pitching… Robbing Peter to pay Paul seldom works, as it always leaves holes, or leaves you on a continuos cycle of juggling… reminds me- haven’t paid the electric bill- guess I’ll use the gas money i still have to take care of it…

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

but the whole point of the article

is that Bard is worth more to Peter (rotation) than Paul (bullpen). So the metaphor doesn’t fly. Unless you think Bard’s not worth more in the rotation. But then we’re just back where we started, talking about the relative merits of Bard in different situations. But hey! Metaphor!

by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 3:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

without him pitching one start

the value to either Peter-paul or Mary- is purely speculative… where his value in the pen is substantiated. A Bard in hand is worth more than….never mind…

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

this is nuts

You’ve three years of relief pitching stats, MPH speeds, walk rates, K rates, spray charts, and pitchfx data from which to set a baseline that’s then adapted to the anticipated workload of starting, which can be coupled with pitch sequencing and whatever else that’s necessary to be observed at spring training. It doesn’t give you total certainty but it gives you a range of possible performances on which you can base expectations.

If someone says they literally have no idea where Daniel Bard will perform on a spectrum from Sandy Koufax to Vin Mazzaro, they are not engaging in serious analysis.

If someone is really going to commit to that idea, then they need to commit to it, by golly. It means they have no basis for pivoting from total uncertainty to the conclusion that Bard will fail, or even that the reward won’t counterbalance the risk. Not knowing cuts both ways, and to poach some philosophy terms it leaves you with quietism, not skepticism.

by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 5:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I voted for the yes.

At least ,It’ll be worth it.
If it becomes successful,Sox can get a young & cheap startar over the next few years.
That would help them a lot into the future.
But I expect Sox eventually move him back to the bullpen role.

by Taro yamada on Jan 11, 2012 9:43 AM EST reply actions  

Demeanor

One thing not mentioned is the players demeanor. I know it isn’t as important as the pitcher having 3 plus pitches and the ability to go through the order multiple times, but I think it is important.

I remember a couple years back when the Sox were talking about putting Paps in the rotation. However, as we all know what Paps is like. He is feisty and has the mentality of a Closer which is the reason he chose to want to close. I think this is one of the reasons Joba Chamberlin has struggled as a starter.

Looking at Bard, I see a calm methodical pitcher, and has the attitude of a starter. It isn’t as important as some of the other things mentioned but it still bares mentioning.

by drabidea on Jan 11, 2012 9:44 AM EST reply actions  

My question would be

Can he keep that up for a full season? I kinda see what you are saying- but there were also times in his one inning he was called upon, that the focus wasn’t there. I know starters go through that over the course of a season, but we need someone you can count on to eat up innings- keep you in ball games, and win a decent portion more than he loses…can he be that guy? I just don’t know- but there were options available that were more certain.

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Great Point

Maybe he doesn’t have the right confidence to do the job or maybe he will have more confidence in the starting role. The other big factor that no one has mentioned is how well he gets along with the new pitching coach. If they hate each other this is going to be a failed experiment from the beginning.

by drabidea on Jan 11, 2012 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

I doubt that is going to be a problem

McClure is being hired in part because he transitioned from a reliever to a starter after three or four years in the Majors. He is really the ideal person to make the transition successful and injury free. His reputation for getting along with players is also fantastic. It probably doesn’t hurt that he previously coached Zach Greinke either.

- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
www.spacemanspancakes.wordpress.com

by Mattsullivan on Jan 11, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I gotta say, frankly,

I highly doubt that played a significant part in their decision to make him the pitching coach. No matter what NESN says.

by wolf9309 on Jan 11, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't see how pitching ~170 innings as a starter ...

… is that much harder than pitching 70+ innings as a reliever.

by 111SoxFan111 on Jan 11, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

the difference of 840+- pitches

to upwards of 2040+ pitches on an arm that’s been used to 280 or so? and that’s only going on 4 pitches per batter/3 batters per inning! That’s a considerable jump in usage- and then you factor in what kind of pitches- if you’re talking breaking balls- curves and sliders, then you have greater wear and tear on an elbow not accustomed to throwing that volume…yeah- it’s a little different

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

it's different

but is also less stressful in a big way because of the guaranteed 4 days off after pitching- no warming up, stretching, getting ready, and throwing warmup pitches in the game in between. A couple of days of complete rest can work wonders for muscles.

by wolf9309 on Jan 11, 2012 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm in favor of them trying it

Because they have more info and knowledge than we do.

Let’s face it, for everyone worried that “his arm is going to fall off!”, do you REALLY have the medical, baseball, physics, and other types of specialized knowledge to make that determination? Or are you just kind of tacking into the wind based on some sort of common sense argument that isn’t really founded on any sort of factual basis?

by Sologub on Jan 11, 2012 10:49 AM EST reply actions  

Have the Red Sox shown

Anything approaching inside knowledge lately?

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 10:54 AM EST via Android app up reply actions  

And much like a roomba

They take that information and run into a wall anyway.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 10:57 AM EST via Android app up reply actions  

regardless of the credentials

and info you have at hand, in the end you are dealing with sport and humans, and all is variable, with no certainties regardless of the volumes of professional info you have…

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately, no FO gets everything right all the time

But I don’t think we can make a determination that Bard is destined for doom as a starter any more than we can say he’s a lock for success.

by Sologub on Jan 11, 2012 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

There are fans...

…like Sean O who portray themselves as convinced they have all the answers. It takes wisdom to realize that everything is not black and white, and that — just like the Red Sox have been in the past — sometimes each of us is wrong. It’s rarer for people like Sean O than others, I’m sure.

I’d recommend this piece from BP about being less extreme and more equivocal when considering how teams operate: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15790

by UltimateCranston on Jan 11, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm wrong a lot

The difference is, the Red Sox should have a vastly higher success rate with their moves.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 3:53 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

and if everyone were honest

this reeks of rolling the dice… and hope it doesn’t come up snake eyes- although he’s the coolest of GI Joe characters- in this instance it seems like hope and a prayer- low cost high reward gamble.

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

too funny

…mostly it has seemed like chicken bones and voodoo…

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Please

we’re not the Rays.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

We can afford only the most expensive of failed medical professionals for our team.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

I've outlined my thoughts before

But he wears down at the end of the season, may or may not have a starter’s repertoire, and oh yeah, was historically bad as a starter, which is why he hasn’t started in like four years.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 10:56 AM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Which is why they'll give him a try

This isn’t an irrevocable decision. If he looks terrible, they’ll probably put him back in the bullpen, or Phil Coke him back in during April/May.

by Sologub on Jan 11, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

most research on pitcher development would suggest he could be healthier long term as a starter and also highly productive innings-wise. Just because he is throwing more innings, doesn’t automatically mean he is a)throwing more overall, b) more likely to throw when fatigued c) more susceptible to injury. Why would it?

- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
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by Mattsullivan on Jan 11, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

+1*to sologrub's comments

- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
www.spacemanspancakes.wordpress.com

by Mattsullivan on Jan 11, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

I mean "If he can" is the whole question, isn't it?

I mean sure, if he was guaranteed to succeed there would be no one complaining about the move. People just don’t know IF he can.

Sure, IF he can be a starter, make him a starter. I just have no idea if he actually can do that. That’s why I can’t rightfully vote in this.

by South Coast Ghost on Jan 11, 2012 10:55 AM EST reply actions  

+1

The poll needs another couple of options: “Based on all empirical evidence, Bard can’t start;” and “Bard will be an awesome starter, the magical candy-cane unicorn told me so. The one Santa was riding.”

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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

"Based on all empirical evidence, Bard can’t start;"

You mean a sample of just 61.1 innings five years ago is empirical evidence right? I just want to be clear on that.

In other news, I am taking Will Middlebrooks off my top prospects list because JUST FOUR YEARS AGO he had a mere.366 slugging percentage in 226 A ball plate appearances, and that’s not what I expect from a power hitter.

- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
www.spacemanspancakes.wordpress.com

by Mattsullivan on Jan 11, 2012 12:00 PM EST reply actions  

+1

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion

by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

don't forget Jose Bautista

the last time he was a regular at 3B was 2008 with the Pirates. And he was .238/.313/.405. 3B has completely different physical demands than RF. He’d probably revert to his old self if the Jays started him at 3B.

by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 12:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Right.

Except you have no evidence AT FRIGGIN’ ALL that he can be an effective starter. You have conjecture suggesting he might be. So on one side: limited predictive value evidence. On the other side: nothing but Fievel looking up at the moon.

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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually nevermind.

I’m starting an Adrian Gonzalez for shortstop campaign.

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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

No, no, no...

… we’re clearly wrong here. Catcher.

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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Guys come on

he should be the starting pitcher for interleague games. All of them.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

3rd base

so one of the leagues best first baseman can get back to his better position, and save the wear and tear on his body…

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Depends on what you're willing to accept as evidence

We obviously don’t have any direct proof that Bard can start at the major league level because he’s never done so. So the best we can do is take his past performance as a reliever and ask ourselves how well he might perform going forward.

You can call that nothing but “conjecture” if you want, but frankly it’s the best that anyone, the Bard-as-starter detractors included, can do. After all, there’s “no evidence AT FRIGGIN’ ALL that he CAN’T be an effective starter” at the MLB level, unless you’re really going to take Sean O’s “wahhh but he sucked as a starter four years ago in Single-A when he was using a completely different delivery” argument seriously. At which point any sane person responds, “He did fine as a starter using his CURRENT delivery in college, so what was your point again?”

by Tarrsk on Jan 11, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes...

… and if Bard’s only way to contribute meaningfully to the club was as a starter, I’d be fine with conjecture. However, given that there’s an actual downside to converting Bard (the loss of his reliever innings, the need to manage his innings for him to contribute in August/September/October, injury risk, my hunch that transitioning him back to relief is not as simple as flipping a switch) I’d like more than conjecture. The more you risk on conjecture, the more irresponsible the decision is. I also object to the fact that the Bard-as-Starter camp totally discounts his starting failure in the minors without acknowledging: (a) that it’s the best and only actual data we have; and (b) there’s something a bit (intellectually dishonest but less charged than those words) about eliminating that data set so you can conjecture.

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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

So is your argument

that he cannot get big league hitters out as a starter, or that he will get injured doing it? My opinion is that he has shown he can get them out, and will have greater impact doing it as a starter.

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion

by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Has he shown he can get them out

Throwing 5mph slower?

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 1:08 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Will you know if he doesn't try?

Here is the thing. If he fails as a starter, you put him back in the pen, pretty simple.

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion

by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Not if his arm is on Yawkey way while he's in the clubhouse.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

This.

Bard has substantial present-day major league value for the club as a reliever, which gets potentially impacted by the move. Unlike Will Middlebrooks, Bard doesn’t start at zero (or more or less zero) and you select an optimal development path – there’s a potential negative cost to futzing around with Bard. This is why the prospect analogy doesn’t work.

Also, this is why C.J. Wilson is a bad analogy from an economic standpoint – he was a mediocre reliever from my recollection.

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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Up and Down...

…great his last year before starting.

Dumb anyway to say “It works look at CJ!” as it is to say “NUH-UNH! Look at Joba!”

by Dale Sams on Jan 11, 2012 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I think probably 5 is an exaggeration

but yes, I definitely agree with the point. Just probably 2-3 slower.

by wolf9309 on Jan 11, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Hard to Believe

A debate where the only major detractors are Sean O and Lone David has even bothered to last this long.

If Bard keeps his arm attached as long as post-conversion Johann Santana I won’t be too unhappy.

by alfredo on Jan 11, 2012 12:04 PM EST reply actions  

If the only major detractors were me and Sean you'd be right

but you are oh, so wrong.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

It seems as though you are the minority in this case.

At least that’s what the poll shows.

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion

by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn't vote

neither did a lot of other people who agree with me.

The poll shows jack shit.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Yankees fans

And Ben Cherington’s 500 sbn accounts.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 12:27 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

And WEEI jacktards.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, because those that disagree with either of you,

must be Yanks fans or jacktards(whatever the F that is). Hilarious.

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion

by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

They don't *have* to be...

… but there’s some evidence of overlap.

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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Really? Cite, please.

All I see in this thread is one long, reasonably well-researched article by Matt Kory, and a bunch of pissy children (on both sides) making snide remarks back and forth, both claiming the intellectual high ground without giving any evidence to support it.

by Tarrsk on Jan 11, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, that constitutes "overlap"

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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Still, it really deflates your pejorative

when it applies equally well to the folks on your own side.

by Tarrsk on Jan 11, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

that word...

there’s that word again…i don’t think it means what you think it means…

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

plus, i had to look it up

now my head hurts from the increased knowledge…

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I've got one of those things, you know, a headache with pictures!

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

If you say so...

… I remain unchastized

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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Er

Unchastened. I suppose I was chastized, it just didn’t take.

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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

I don’t mean to suggest you’re the only detractors to the idea, simply the only major detractors in this particular thread today.

But keep up the razor-sharp arguments grounded in a cocktail of wise old school scouting and rock-solid sabermetrics.

by alfredo on Jan 11, 2012 12:44 PM EST reply actions  

Yes

I agree there are plenty of others who feel it’s not a good idea. I simply mean you’re the only detractors in this particular thread today.

And though your arguments today are not exactly a considered mix of old school scouting and rock-solid sabermetrics, I have seen some of your more specific thoughts on the subject and think your points are generally valid, just not nearly reason enough not to try it.

Also, and this may surprise you both: you’re a tiny bit negative on occasion.

by alfredo on Jan 11, 2012 12:52 PM EST reply actions  

That's because

The worst case scenario happens pretty often.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 12:59 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

Especially for the Red Sox

when was the last time we caught a break? Four, five years ago?

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Ells and Beckett

Were both big breaks. That lackey and Crawford screwed up.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 1:29 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

I don't mind if they want to try him at it

But I just would rather they go in with more solid and proven options at the #4 and then let him try it out at #5 with a relatively short leash. I would actually they rather have other guys for 4 AND 5 so that we can keep Bard and Aceves in the bullpen. I have no faith in Jenks.

Hopefully, they don’t try to make him throw over the top again instead of 3/4 slot or tell him to nix his slider. They probably won’t mess around with his arm slot once he gets it comfortable but they might tell him to throw his slider less and changeup more.

What he does need to do is get his arm slot/release point in a place he is comfortable with and hits it consistently, he’s going to struggle whether he is pitching as a starter or reliever. In a couple of his bad outings at the end of the year, he was inconsistent with his arm slot and not surprisingly struggled. Earlier in the season he was consistent in it and dominated. You need to be consistent with that, especially as a young pitcher.

by The Name is Dalton on Jan 11, 2012 1:11 PM EST reply actions  

My guess is Jenks won't be ready until at least June.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I would bet you're right.

And then he would be coming off a very long lay-off just like Dice-K will be. I just think it’s foolish to rely on those guys…but I recognize that you need to keep a roster spot for them.

I wish it wasnt’ so.

by The Name is Dalton on Jan 11, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

assuming he hasn't added any more weight

which could push him out to august or later…

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Apparently, the Rays are going to sign Luke Scott...

… so my hatred is needed elsewhere.

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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 1:23 PM EST reply actions  

As if I needed more of a reason to hate the Rays.

Remember when Crawford was hit in the nuts during that pickoff throw? I want that to happen to Scott every day for the rest of his career.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I wanted him to be the closer

But since they traded for Bailey, I think Bard should be given a shot.

Check out my blog at http://conor-soxrox.blogspot.com

by Conor Duffy on Jan 11, 2012 1:24 PM EST reply actions  

I think Bard and Aceves should be kept in the bullpen where they belong

A lot of people seem to ignore that without them our bullpen is okay, but with them our bullpen is up there with the 2010 Padres and 2011 Braves.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Neither do I

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions  

What if he's as good starting as he is relieving?

In that case, it’s insanity to leave him in the bullpen. There’s simply no reason not to give a guy with that stuff a chance to pitch 200 innings instead of 70. He doesn’t have an injury history, and if anything his makeup is more cerebral and even-keeled and suited for long innings than a volcanic, manic type like Paps. And if it doesn’t work, you put him back in the pen. What’s the harm? It’s crazy not to try.

by Matt Taibbi on Jan 11, 2012 1:57 PM EST reply actions  

not to mention all they said

is bard and aceves get ready to start in offseason and spring training doesnt say they are locked in to the 4th and 5th spot in rotation. once spring training comes they will evaluate the best options they have and go with it . they have hinted for years that bards spot was in the rotation long term. they only viewed his move to the bullpen temporary to fix his mental lapses and lack of control.

by brady12mvp3 on Jan 11, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

"they have hinted for years that bards spot was in the rotation long term. "

Can you back that up with anything?

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

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by Bloggy on Jan 11, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

actually no but i have read it before this past off season

and i remember when they moved him to the pen they said it was to fix his mechanics and control issues.

by brady12mvp3 on Jan 11, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, so just mechanics,

Mental lapses and control issues? Nothing to worry about!

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 2:30 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

oh and he was a kid then u think everyone goes

from college to cy young? thats what the minors are for. hey i am not sold on the idea either but i know one thing it isnt as dire as u negative sox fans make it out to be. he will have some growing pains this year but he has the talent to be a solid top of the rotation starter.

by brady12mvp3 on Jan 11, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

That's not really accurate

You can change your mechanics without changing your role. They are not fully dependent on one another. Some pitchers may alter it but it was not a “Let’s put him in the bullpen, that’ll fix it”. He still had control problems when he first went up to Portland in the bullpen.

When he came into the organization, they told him to throw more over the top instead of having his arm at the 3/4 slot. They tried to get him to stop throwing a slider and tried to teach him a 12-6 curveball because it fit with the arm angle they were trying to get him to use. We know the results. It was terrible. He said he couldn’t locate, felt like he was trying to pitch using someone else’s stuff and said, “screw this”.

He went back to 3/4, forgot about the 12-6 curve, turned his slurve into a slider and started with his hands in a different position. And he worked on it in the Hawaii league after the 2007 season. He was in the bullpen in that league (16 innings with an ERA around 1) and they decided to keep him there when he came back.

Bard could’ve stayed in the rotation and still made those changes.

by The Name is Dalton on Jan 11, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

better to work those issues out of the pen

smaller sample size per outing, can focus on those fixes without fear of blowing up a game. the shorter outings help build confidence, and when you do screw up you know you still have work to do and someone else can come in with less potential for damaging a lead- when you are a starter your worrying about the entire line-up, pitching longer outings, there’s a whole lot more pressure when you factor in trying to tweak your mechanics too…

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

And considering he was historically awful

What if the mechanics were only a part? Given that we have argumentum ad ignorantum either way, why not err on the side of caution? Especially given his September collapse.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 3:56 PM EST via Android app up reply actions  

I did not say that this was a good reason or an argument to put him at starter.

I’ve pretty much always said that while I don’t care if they give him a chance, I would rather they have a better option.

by The Name is Dalton on Jan 11, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

If anyone one is interested

you can SEE his 2007 mechanics here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqjbo-POL4o

and an excellent breakdown of his current delivery here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cExdl1tvbfI

The difference is noticeable. 2007 Bard has a higher kick, much less forward momentum at his hand break, and a more dramatic tilt in his shoulders, raising his arm angle and pulling him across his body more. This is the delivery that caused his wildness. The 2011 version is faster, more driven by his lower body and more balanced.

- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
http://www.rantsports.com/boston-red-sox/

by Mattsullivan on Jan 11, 2012 3:10 PM EST reply actions  

Write this down...

Bard will put up 160 innings of 115 ERA+..get tired, and they’ll shut him down in the 3rd week of August.

Let’s move on. Will Beckett and Buchholz be on the DL at any point at the same time next year?

by Dale Sams on Jan 11, 2012 3:33 PM EST reply actions  

If that happens

I will be very, very surprised. I would be shocked if he made it out of May before being put back in the bullpen with an ERA+ worse than Lackey’s last year.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

This experiment has the potential

to revisit what we already saw in 2011…trying to cover Bucholz innings with the collective mediocre arms by committee…

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

several million on the pen?

Melancon and Bailey make about a million between them. short money and I don’t believe either is arb eligible soon. At this point, Jenks makes a lot more than the rest of the bullpen put together.

Bard makes about $500K and I belive the move to the rotation is an attempt to save money on the rotation this way rather than adding two FA starters. Look, the Sox have over $25 million of pitching (Dice-K, Lackey) out for the year, so they had to do something to address these holes. On the face of it, I would rather see Bard left in the bullpen, but I guess in Ben we trust.

On the other hand, you are correct that Bard likely won’t pitch more than 150-160 innings, like a below average 5th starter. That’s why I belive they need to to out and sign Kuroda or another FA pitcher that then can count on for 180-200 innings.

by Scoop1981 on Jan 11, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Bailey is looking at about $3.5M in ARB

Plus you have to consider the money spent on Punto and Sweeney which were required to replace our trade pieces Lowrie and Reddick, probably another extra $1.5M over what they would have made.

I am Sandy's bitch.

Penn State Forever

by Rogue Nine on Jan 11, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Perfectly stated.

I present you the clapping scene from Birdemic in tribute: (ignore the weird title; it’s perfectly sfw)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSnUi3GkIBk

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think 1 is valid

There are plenty of pitchers, who we know can start at an MLB level, who have been available.

The FA market is VERY slim at the top, Wilson, Buehrle, Jackson, Darvish really. The rest though, and those available via trade, have been alright.

The problem is that we haven’t moved on any of them so the market looks smaller than it is.

I am Sandy's bitch.

Penn State Forever

by Rogue Nine on Jan 11, 2012 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

If you want to overpay for mediocrity.

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion

by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

So overpaying for crap...

Is better than underpaying for possible crap, that might be something much better?

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion

by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion

by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

consider the fail safe buttons

break glass in case of emergency and enter in Cook or Silva? and who’s roster spots will they take upon coming up? and are they really the options we want if this doesn’t work?

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 4:31 PM EST reply actions  

Another "bridge" year

With the loss of Dice-K and Lackey, with $25 million sitting on the shelf, it looks like the Sox are simply trying to patch and hope for 2012. We better hope Beckett and Lester have very good years and Bucholz stays healthy. any erosion in thes three and the Sox are cooked this year.

by Scoop1981 on Jan 11, 2012 4:36 PM EST reply actions  

Dice_K will pitch for the Sox in 2012.

He is way ahead of schedule.

http://www.nikkansports.com/baseball/mlb/news/p-bb-tp2-20120108-886520.html

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion

by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Dice-K

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion

by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I love how Chrome translated that for me

Example:

Without strong arm ball swung into the female scared right elbow, catcher mitt fits in with such a high spin hypothenar of stringy

by The Name is Dalton on Jan 11, 2012 7:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Is it wrong...

… that I think that’s probably literally what’s going on with Dice right now?

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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I think we all should temper our expectations

The Sox are clearly not trying to compete this year.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 4:37 PM EST reply actions  

Well, we'd have something entertaining to watch...

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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a really heartless approach

I mean, we could have more money to spend on pitching if we have Bard rob a bank, but it’s probably not in our, or his, best interest.

Also, good teams need pitching. We have none.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

IF BARD FAILS HE GOES BACK TO THe BULLPEN

that’s the point- WHO then takes the mound with any reasonable expectation of success?

by toonman on Jan 11, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

We took a team that didn't make the playoff last year

And, hard as it is to imagine, made it worse in every phase of the game. The offense doesn’t have Reddick and Ells is basically guaranteed to regress. The starting pitching, hard as it is to fathom, is even worse off than when we had John Lackey starting for us, and the bullpen has replaced Bard, Lackey, and Aceves with Melancon and Bailey.

Excuse me if I don’t go out and buy my world series tickets right away.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Good point.

Relievers are very fungible.

by Sologub on Jan 11, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

That was the best post I've read.

Well done.

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion

by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

While not nonsensical by any means, this analysis would make more sense if...
  • “not that valuable” and “not valuable at all” were the same thing;
  • there was any reasonable way to project the likelihood that Bard will be an effective starter;
  • Bard actually had a giant START/RELIEF light switch on his back; and/or
  • the only source for starting pitching in the known universe was Daniel Bard.

The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.

by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel it's worth noting

That perhaps I took your posts for granted during the ‘11 season, because this offseason you’ve been regularly hilarious.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 7:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks.

The constant stopping to scream at the television during Sox games was disrupting my flow.

The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.

by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 12, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Bard as starter....

… would probably not be as viscerally objectionable (to some – self included), if it didn’t seem like the Red Sox were attempting to claim they intentionally invented floor-pie, rather than admitting they dropped the pie on the floor.

The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.

by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 7:16 PM EST reply actions  

I don't either

Are you saying you wouldn’t object so strongly to Bard as a starter if the Red Sox admitted that it was a bad idea before they did it? If they admitted it was a desperation move?

Why on Earth would they do that? Why would you WANT them to do that? I can’t be reading that right…

by Jake_W on Jan 11, 2012 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

No,

He’s saying that the Red Sox aren’t converting Bard to be a starter because it’s the right move, they’re doing it because they almost literally have no other options. It tends to lessen the confidence in the move when done from desperation.

by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 11:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm still holding out my last bit of hope that

there’s another, tastier pie baking in the oven.

by wolf9309 on Jan 11, 2012 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Beats the hell out of
An unofficial Boston Red Sox blog

I am Sandy's bitch.

Penn State Forever

by Rogue Nine on Jan 12, 2012 12:00 AM EST up reply actions  

I’ve been fighting to get that changed for ever! Nobody will listen to me!

Writer at Over The Monster. Follow me on Twitter! It'll be super awesome fun! @mattymatty2000

by Matthew Kory on Jan 12, 2012 1:59 AM EST up reply actions  

The problem is

that we are all such @#$%ing geniuses, that we need to remind people that this isn’t an official Red Sox blog, no matter how smart we sound.

It’s a legal thing.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Jan 12, 2012 6:15 AM EST up reply actions  

That, and Kory's suggestion was

OTM: Fans of poop jokes.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 12, 2012 7:58 AM EST up reply actions  

I definitely prefer pie.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Jan 12, 2012 8:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I am giving your userpic a very stern look right now.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven

by Bloggy on Jan 12, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Watch out Tarrsk

Canadians are all 1/3 polar bear. It’s in their Constitution.

You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash

by TheLoneDavid on Jan 12, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

He's our new closer.

He has never been in the true closer role, and I think he will do well there.

by ericsoderstrom on Jan 12, 2012 1:26 AM EST reply actions  

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