OK, OTM, Let's Talk Daniel Bard
Starting this article feels a bit like trying to explain something to your parents that you've been avoiding for a long time.
In an off season marked by front office turn over and not much else, the potential move of ace reliever Daniel Bard to the starting rotation has been the most controversial among discussion points that would make a '50s sitcom look like a another Kevin Costner golf movie [author's note: this was the most vile, contemptible, and disgusting thing that came to mind].
Moving Bard to the rotation has been panned by several well known and highly respected writers including Rany Jazayerli at Grantland and Cliff Corcoran at SI.com. It's not been the most popular idea in the comments section here, either. It wouldn't surprise me if somewhere out there existed a small stuffed doll with "Matt Kory" written on it in sharpie and a butter knife in its back.
Yet, despite a pain in my neck that I just can't seem to shake, I'm in favor of it. I have reasons for thinking this way, of course, just as the above mentioned articles had reasons to be against it. There is nothing wrong with friendly disagreement though, so let's talk, OTM. Let's lay this out. I'll tell you why I think moving Bard to the rotation, or at least trying it out, is a good idea. You tell me why you agree or disagree in the comments. OK? OK.
Let's have at it!
(After the jump, of course.)
The value of a decent starter is much greater than that of a good reliever.In the abstract, I'm in favor of moves like this. Whether we're talking Red Sox, Astros, Braves, or whatever, moving players where they can provide the most value to the team is a strong idea. That's what it's all about, right? Teams have to maximize the value (i.e. runs, hits, defense, etc.) they get from their players. If Daniel Bard, or Alexi Ogando, or Lance Berkman, or whomever can give his team a better chance to win more games by doing something different I'm all for it.
The Red Sox have a roster with three starting pitchers that we'd like to see get the ball. After that it's Carlos Silva or Aaron Cook. Fine human beings, I'm sure, and fine for sixth/seventh starter types (good for that, actually) but I think we'd all admit there is a bit of room for improvement there.
At the same time, the team has an abundance of relievers. The additions of Mark Melacon and Andrew Bailey along with a potentially healthy Bobby Jenks (I said potentially!!!) give the Red Sox legitimate end of the game options. I wouldn't call it an embarrassment of riches exactly, but it sure isn't a bad group by any stretch. With Daniel Bard it's even stronger of course, but they could sure survive without Bard. So why not take from a strength and give to a weakness?
The bonus is that Bard can provide more value to the Red Sox in a starter's role. Because starters pitch so much more often than relievers do, they have that opportunity to impact the team's season on a greater scale. After all, relievers are uniformly failed starting pitchers. Every major league reliever has at some point in his baseball career started. But, that doesn't go both ways as good starting pitchers don’t get moved to the bullpen. Not ever. Think about it for a second and the reason becomes fairly obvious. It isn’t about the value of the first or third inning over the ninth, or bunk about mental strength or intensity. It’s simply about quantity. A good starting pitcher will throw 200 or more innings whereas a reliever isn’t likely to break 80. The lack of innings severely limits the impact a reliever can have. For a reliever to be as valuable as a starter, you have to believe that the 8th and 9th innings are always at least three times more valuable than every other inning. And that just isn’t the case.
For example, look at Fan Graphs fWAR stat (Wins Above Replacement; you can read more about it here). In a nutshell, they calculate the number of wins a player, any player, provides to their team over what a freely available AAA-quality fill-in would. To give you some context, last season Roy Halladay threw 233 innings of 2.35 ERA ball. That (with all the peripheral stats, the ballpark, the run environment, and a bunch of other things calculated in) equates to 8.2 fWAR, the highest of any pitcher in baseball.
To find the first reliever on the list of highest fWAR from last season, you have to scroll down to 42nd on the list where Atlanta’s Craig Kimbrel sits with 3.2. Why are the best relievers so far down the list? fWAR is a cumulative stat like RBIs or Hits. The more you play the more you (can) get. Because relievers don't play nearly as much as starters, they simply can’t be as valuable. In effect, their usage doesn't allow them to be.
Moving Daniel Bard to the rotation (or at least giving it the old college try) gives one of the better pitchers on the team a chance to have a greater impact on the club's fortunes. That's a good thing.
It's worked in the recent past.
A few examples:
- Alexi Ogando of the Rangers started only three of 59 games in the minor leagues but the Rangers converted him to starting last season anyway. He started 29 games, accumulating 3.6 fWAR.
-
T.C.J. Wilson had been a reliever with the Texas Rangers for parts of five seasons before the team converted him to the rotation. In 2010, his first year starting, he accumulated a very good 4.6 fWAR and last season he beat that with 5.9. Before starting, Wilson’s entire five-year career had been worth 3.3 fWAR. In one season as a starter he was more valuable to the Rangers than in his five seasons in relief. Sure, part of that is because Wilson pitched well as a starter and was only mediocre out of the bullpen, but it illustrates the point that relievers simply can’t provide the value that starters can. - It doesn't always work though. The Tigers tried to convert Phil Coke from relieving to starting but had to move Coke back to the bullpen mid season. But, even by pitching well enough to lose his spot in the rotation, Coke threw 108 innings and was worth 2.0 fWAR on the season (both starting and relieving). That was more than he’d been worth over his three-year career to that point.
So it can work and it has worked. It has also failed, but even that failure wasn't awful. Coke provided value to the Tigers by holding down a rotation spot for some portion of the season, then he re-converted back to the bullpen and did... well, he was still Phil Coke, put it that way.
Daniel Bard, Pitcher
This is the part where things get a bit complicated and subjective. I'm not telling tales out of school when I say the Red Sox front office should analyze the markets for starters and relievers, their roster, their future roster, and their salary situation both now and in coming years. They should combine that information with scouting reports on Bard. Can he master more than two pitches effectively enough to succeed multiple times through the order? Is he an abnormally large injury risk? Does he have the mentality to start? Is he enthusiastic about a change in roles? All these questions and countless more are thrown into a cauldron from which the team makes a decision.
Personally, when looking at Bard the pitcher, where he's come from, his journey through the minors, and how he's pitched at the major league level, I see a guy who could succeed in a starting role. But I don't know that. You might disagree, but you can't be certain either. As Jason Wojciechowski recently reminded us at Baseball Prospectus, saying we don't know isn't a bad thing. That is, unless we do know, but are just refusing to say.
* * *
So that's where I stand, OTM. It's good to try new things, it's good to maximize assets, it's good to strengthen up weak parts of the roster by taking from stronger parts where the hit is less likely to be felt. It's worked in the past. I have confidence that if it doesn't work or the make-up of the roster changes drastically between now and Opening Day or what have you, this front office is smart enough to realize it and make the proper alterations in course.
Register your vote and let me know what you think in the comments.
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Comments
I agree with you completely.
It’s a fairly simple concept. Put players in position to get the most value. It’s not as thought the Sox can’t move him back to the bullpen if this doesn’t work out.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 7:50 AM EST reply actions
Also
It’s C.J. Wilson, not T.J.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 7:50 AM EST up reply actions
Obviously...
… Kory’s inherent subconscious precognition is recoiling from the future spectacle of Bard’s Tommy John surgery. Pencil it in for June 17th, 2012.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
Don't be dumb..
..Sox will have him try and pitch through the torn ligaments of course. Oct.10th, 2012.
at which point he'll alienate himself
by going to arizona for rehab, and staying away from the club….
FixedI
Thanks
Writer at Over The Monster. Follow me on Twitter! It'll be super awesome fun! @mattymatty2000
by Matthew Kory on Jan 11, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
Injury is inherent to pitching.
The potential upside of this move outweighs the injury risk.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 8:39 AM EST up reply actions
That is only true
if the likelihood of success is high…or at least 50-50.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
The silent majority
Not everyone that disagrees with you posts here.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 8:54 AM EST up reply actions
Many people here
Don’t want to ruin bard’s career foolishly.
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 9:02 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Well, I didn't vote
there’s no “I’d rather have him start than Carlos Silva, but at that point I’d just roll with a three man rotation and hope for the best.” option
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
Kook-Aid
tastes good.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
just want to get you on record here
On the assumption that we really commit with Bard as a starter (he pitches into Mid-May at the least), how likely is it in your mind that he provides MORE value to the Sox than he did in 2011?
Right now, my completely subjective sense is that Bard has a 60% chance of being worth more on this approach. Where would you put that %?
by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 11:28 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'd say he has a high chance
Of ending his career, or doing irreparable damage.
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 11:33 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
70-80%- if he makes just 12 starts
and averages just 6 innings a start he would be a good bet to surpass his value in his best season as reliever. If he makes 20 starts is virtually a lock.
- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
www.spacemanspancakes.wordpress.com
by Mattsullivan on Jan 11, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
just to be clear
Your guesstimation is that there’s a 70-80% chance of Bard surpassing last seasons value. Mine is 60%.
SeanO’s at least seems to be that Bard has a better than 50% chance of a career ending injury. Which is a different question than I asked but informative just the same.
by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 12:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I would have no idea
Of how to put a percent to it. I will say I believe it is way higher then leaving him as closer.
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 12:23 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Yes, let's take stupid, unnecessary risk
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 12:41 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Enough of one to be concerned
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 12:57 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
2011 SP that matched Bard's fWAR of 1.8
P – G/IP/FIP
John Tomlin – 26/165/4.27
Tommy Hanson – 22/130/3.67
Bud Norris – 31/186/4.02
I think it’ll be tough, assuming he doesn’t go over 150 IP in the regular season. But he could reach the gray area where it’s all really the same anyway.
So, technically, 40%, but with some blurriness, 60%.
I'm not particularly for or against
It fully depends on how Bard feels, and whether or not he and the training staff think that his arm can handle all of those extra innings. You mentioned Phil Coke as your example of the transition not working, but Joba Chamberlain is the one who comes to mind for me. After he injured himself as a starter, he took a very long time to get back to where he once was as a reliever.
He could be very useful as a starter, but if it can only happen at the expense of his health then it’s not worth it.
by Aluminum Penguin on Jan 11, 2012 8:22 AM EST reply actions
The Joba comp baffles me completely
Joba was NOT a reliever in any definite sense before he injured his shoulder. He pitched out of the bullpen during an approximate 40 inning late season call up after having spent the year starting in the minors. In Boston, another pitcher, a Mr. Clay Buchholz, did exactly the same thing. One major difference was Boston shut Buchholz down in the last few weeks of the season and the Yankees let Joba pitch into October. For both of these pitchers, the teams always wanted them in the starter role permanently. Joba’s bullpen success (and the BS that goes on on sports talk radio) created the controversy about having him start. It was never an matter of he is a reliever he need to stay in the bullpen. Joba was a very good starter until he injured his shoulder and that may have happened regardless of his role, thanks to his mechanics (which are rough on the shoulder by some accounts). Regardless, he was never really a reliever before his injury, like Buchholz, Phil Hughes, Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens and hundreds of other young pitchers, he was in the pen to get a taste of the bigs. It is rewriting history to say he was “converted” back to a starter.
Joba was also three very key years younger than Bard. Bard is beyond the point where he is at high risk for causing lasting damage to his shoulder. He could get injured, just as any other pitcher could, but there is no reason to believe it is a higher than normal risk. Pitching 80 or so bullpen innings requires pitching on erratic rest and is just as likely to cause serious injury as starting. Bard has not been an injury prone pitcher in that role, so I don’t see why he would become one given a regular schedule and pitch count limits.
- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
www.spacemanspancakes.wordpress.com
by Mattsullivan on Jan 11, 2012 9:48 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Did he pitch a lot of innings in previous years?
If so I apologize for my ignorance. I never followed him in the minor leagues, so I was only going by what I’ve seen in the majors, with him only finding real success in years where he’s thrown very few innings. I guess the point was that I value a few great innings more than a lot of mediocre ones PLUS an injury. If Bard is confident that extra innings doesn’t equal a big injury risk, then go for it.
by Aluminum Penguin on Jan 11, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
Robbing Peter to Pay Paul
never really works, except on paper. I realize this is an experiment, and with those you have equal chances of failure and success. The thing that worries me, is how long are they willing to work the experiment? The reality is there were better proven options available, that would’ve made more sense than an experiment or idea, and I would’ve supported that more readily than an experiment. The potential to weaken, albeit for a specified time, both the rotation and the pen is more the issue for me. Bard hasn’t pitched Starter innings in quite some time, so the possibility of injury, shoulder fatigue, and ineffectiveness certainly rise, and i don’t think one off season is enough to take you from 80 to 200 innings+, even if others have done it- I don’t see it as the smart option.
Don't forget that, once again,
Bard was historically awful as starter. Whether you believe the mechanical changes made the difference or not, he was historically awful.
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 8:55 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
YEP- There's that, too!
Historically- betting on the longshots doesn’t always produce the big money ticket-
I think at this point
his last 4 years as a reliever hold more predictive value than his 1 year of A-level ball as a starter from 5 years ago.
by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 11:32 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Why would it?
He was good as a reliever, he was godawful as a starter. Why does being good at one thing make him likely to be good at a fairly different thing, when he sucked at that fairly different thing before?
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 11:34 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
my problem with your analysis
is it seems to all be stitched together with rhetorical questions
by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 11:38 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
8 era as a starter
Zero starter innings since then. Let’s make him a starter!111111
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 11:39 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
He can replace Lackey!
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
5 year old stats, against a different level of competition, at a different level of mental and physical development, can only go so far.
I’m just not even seeing a good faith acknowledgement from you that they have limited predictive value.
by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 12:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Were there no data
Then fine, relieving is best. If he was kind of meh, also ok. But he was simply atrocious, and nobody else seems to care.
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 12:25 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I care
even with the mechanics change. They changed his mechanics for a reason.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
It's true that they have limited predictive value...
… but less limited than any data suggesting he can be a worthwhile starter. As there is no such data unless one adds a generous helping of imagination and pixie-dust.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
It seems like it's a binary question to most...
…is his minor league starting failure relevant or not? The answer is somewhat, but in comparison to his relief pitching success, I would say it is not AS relevant.
It’s like some people think pitching in the bullpen and pitching as a starter are fundamentally different skills. They’re different for sure, but people make it seem like we’re converting Bard to play third base. Has there been any indication that starting pitchers are more prone to get injured than relief pitchers? It seems like pitchers just pretty much always get injured in general, with rare CCish exceptions.
A pitcher’s FIP tends to get worse as a starter vs. as a reliever, so we should expect some decline, and with Bard’s poor history as a starter (despite being long ago), maybe we should expect a somewhat bigger decline than normal, but it’s not like his FIP should be in the high 4.00’s.
by UltimateCranston on Jan 11, 2012 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
the ultimate question
is can he maintain or surpass his value to the team as a starter, versus the value he currently has as a known commodity in the bullpen, and the unfortunate answer is we won’t know until the experiment starts…and if experiment doesn’t work out- will it mess with his head that he also loses the value he had out of the pen….
when robbing $1 from Peter gives you $2 for Paul, you do it
by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 11:08 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
until Paul comes calling, and you have nothing
then guido comes for your little finger….
old expression
taking resources from one commited source(Peter) to fulfill another more pressing commitment (Paul)…in this case taking known commodity from bullpen, possibly weakening that resource in order to bolster the starting pitching… Robbing Peter to pay Paul seldom works, as it always leaves holes, or leaves you on a continuos cycle of juggling… reminds me- haven’t paid the electric bill- guess I’ll use the gas money i still have to take care of it…
they replaced paul with
melancon and bailey.
but the whole point of the article
is that Bard is worth more to Peter (rotation) than Paul (bullpen). So the metaphor doesn’t fly. Unless you think Bard’s not worth more in the rotation. But then we’re just back where we started, talking about the relative merits of Bard in different situations. But hey! Metaphor!
by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 3:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
without him pitching one start
the value to either Peter-paul or Mary- is purely speculative… where his value in the pen is substantiated. A Bard in hand is worth more than….never mind…
this is nuts
You’ve three years of relief pitching stats, MPH speeds, walk rates, K rates, spray charts, and pitchfx data from which to set a baseline that’s then adapted to the anticipated workload of starting, which can be coupled with pitch sequencing and whatever else that’s necessary to be observed at spring training. It doesn’t give you total certainty but it gives you a range of possible performances on which you can base expectations.
If someone says they literally have no idea where Daniel Bard will perform on a spectrum from Sandy Koufax to Vin Mazzaro, they are not engaging in serious analysis.
If someone is really going to commit to that idea, then they need to commit to it, by golly. It means they have no basis for pivoting from total uncertainty to the conclusion that Bard will fail, or even that the reward won’t counterbalance the risk. Not knowing cuts both ways, and to poach some philosophy terms it leaves you with quietism, not skepticism.
by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 5:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I voted for the yes.
At least ,It’ll be worth it.
If it becomes successful,Sox can get a young & cheap startar over the next few years.
That would help them a lot into the future.
But I expect Sox eventually move him back to the bullpen role.
Demeanor
One thing not mentioned is the players demeanor. I know it isn’t as important as the pitcher having 3 plus pitches and the ability to go through the order multiple times, but I think it is important.
I remember a couple years back when the Sox were talking about putting Paps in the rotation. However, as we all know what Paps is like. He is feisty and has the mentality of a Closer which is the reason he chose to want to close. I think this is one of the reasons Joba Chamberlin has struggled as a starter.
Looking at Bard, I see a calm methodical pitcher, and has the attitude of a starter. It isn’t as important as some of the other things mentioned but it still bares mentioning.
My question would be
Can he keep that up for a full season? I kinda see what you are saying- but there were also times in his one inning he was called upon, that the focus wasn’t there. I know starters go through that over the course of a season, but we need someone you can count on to eat up innings- keep you in ball games, and win a decent portion more than he loses…can he be that guy? I just don’t know- but there were options available that were more certain.
Great Point
Maybe he doesn’t have the right confidence to do the job or maybe he will have more confidence in the starting role. The other big factor that no one has mentioned is how well he gets along with the new pitching coach. If they hate each other this is going to be a failed experiment from the beginning.
I doubt that is going to be a problem
McClure is being hired in part because he transitioned from a reliever to a starter after three or four years in the Majors. He is really the ideal person to make the transition successful and injury free. His reputation for getting along with players is also fantastic. It probably doesn’t hurt that he previously coached Zach Greinke either.
- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
www.spacemanspancakes.wordpress.com
by Mattsullivan on Jan 11, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
I gotta say, frankly,
I highly doubt that played a significant part in their decision to make him the pitching coach. No matter what NESN says.
I don't see how pitching ~170 innings as a starter ...
… is that much harder than pitching 70+ innings as a reliever.
by 111SoxFan111 on Jan 11, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
the difference of 840+- pitches
to upwards of 2040+ pitches on an arm that’s been used to 280 or so? and that’s only going on 4 pitches per batter/3 batters per inning! That’s a considerable jump in usage- and then you factor in what kind of pitches- if you’re talking breaking balls- curves and sliders, then you have greater wear and tear on an elbow not accustomed to throwing that volume…yeah- it’s a little different
it's different
but is also less stressful in a big way because of the guaranteed 4 days off after pitching- no warming up, stretching, getting ready, and throwing warmup pitches in the game in between. A couple of days of complete rest can work wonders for muscles.
I'm in favor of them trying it
Because they have more info and knowledge than we do.
Let’s face it, for everyone worried that “his arm is going to fall off!”, do you REALLY have the medical, baseball, physics, and other types of specialized knowledge to make that determination? Or are you just kind of tacking into the wind based on some sort of common sense argument that isn’t really founded on any sort of factual basis?
Have the Red Sox shown
Anything approaching inside knowledge lately?
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 10:54 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Do I think the Red Sox use medical doctors, baseball professionals, and other experts to make their decisions?
Yes, yes I do.
And much like a roomba
They take that information and run into a wall anyway.
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 10:57 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
regardless of the credentials
and info you have at hand, in the end you are dealing with sport and humans, and all is variable, with no certainties regardless of the volumes of professional info you have…
Unfortunately, no FO gets everything right all the time
But I don’t think we can make a determination that Bard is destined for doom as a starter any more than we can say he’s a lock for success.
There are fans...
…like Sean O who portray themselves as convinced they have all the answers. It takes wisdom to realize that everything is not black and white, and that — just like the Red Sox have been in the past — sometimes each of us is wrong. It’s rarer for people like Sean O than others, I’m sure.
I’d recommend this piece from BP about being less extreme and more equivocal when considering how teams operate: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15790
by UltimateCranston on Jan 11, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
I'm wrong a lot
The difference is, the Red Sox should have a vastly higher success rate with their moves.
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 3:53 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
and if everyone were honest
this reeks of rolling the dice… and hope it doesn’t come up snake eyes- although he’s the coolest of GI Joe characters- in this instance it seems like hope and a prayer- low cost high reward gamble.
too funny
…mostly it has seemed like chicken bones and voodoo…
Please
we’re not the Rays.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
We can afford only the most expensive of failed medical professionals for our team.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
I've outlined my thoughts before
But he wears down at the end of the season, may or may not have a starter’s repertoire, and oh yeah, was historically bad as a starter, which is why he hasn’t started in like four years.
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 10:56 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Which is why they'll give him a try
This isn’t an irrevocable decision. If he looks terrible, they’ll probably put him back in the bullpen, or Phil Coke him back in during April/May.
+1
most research on pitcher development would suggest he could be healthier long term as a starter and also highly productive innings-wise. Just because he is throwing more innings, doesn’t automatically mean he is a)throwing more overall, b) more likely to throw when fatigued c) more susceptible to injury. Why would it?
- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
www.spacemanspancakes.wordpress.com
by Mattsullivan on Jan 11, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
+1*to sologrub's comments
- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
www.spacemanspancakes.wordpress.com
by Mattsullivan on Jan 11, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
I mean "If he can" is the whole question, isn't it?
I mean sure, if he was guaranteed to succeed there would be no one complaining about the move. People just don’t know IF he can.
Sure, IF he can be a starter, make him a starter. I just have no idea if he actually can do that. That’s why I can’t rightfully vote in this.
by South Coast Ghost on Jan 11, 2012 10:55 AM EST reply actions
+1
The poll needs another couple of options: “Based on all empirical evidence, Bard can’t start;” and “Bard will be an awesome starter, the magical candy-cane unicorn told me so. The one Santa was riding.”
The Year of Extreme Opinions
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
"Based on all empirical evidence, Bard can’t start;"
You mean a sample of just 61.1 innings five years ago is empirical evidence right? I just want to be clear on that.
In other news, I am taking Will Middlebrooks off my top prospects list because JUST FOUR YEARS AGO he had a mere.366 slugging percentage in 226 A ball plate appearances, and that’s not what I expect from a power hitter.
- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
www.spacemanspancakes.wordpress.com
+1
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
don't forget Jose Bautista
the last time he was a regular at 3B was 2008 with the Pirates. And he was .238/.313/.405. 3B has completely different physical demands than RF. He’d probably revert to his old self if the Jays started him at 3B.
by dennet on Jan 11, 2012 12:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Has he done the same thing since?
Bard hasn’t.
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 12:26 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Right.
Except you have no evidence AT FRIGGIN’ ALL that he can be an effective starter. You have conjecture suggesting he might be. So on one side: limited predictive value evidence. On the other side: nothing but Fievel looking up at the moon.
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Actually nevermind.
I’m starting an Adrian Gonzalez for shortstop campaign.
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
No, please join my Gonzo to RF movement
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 12:58 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
No, no, no...
… we’re clearly wrong here. Catcher.
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
Guys come on
he should be the starting pitcher for interleague games. All of them.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Depends on what you're willing to accept as evidence
We obviously don’t have any direct proof that Bard can start at the major league level because he’s never done so. So the best we can do is take his past performance as a reliever and ask ourselves how well he might perform going forward.
You can call that nothing but “conjecture” if you want, but frankly it’s the best that anyone, the Bard-as-starter detractors included, can do. After all, there’s “no evidence AT FRIGGIN’ ALL that he CAN’T be an effective starter” at the MLB level, unless you’re really going to take Sean O’s “wahhh but he sucked as a starter four years ago in Single-A when he was using a completely different delivery” argument seriously. At which point any sane person responds, “He did fine as a starter using his CURRENT delivery in college, so what was your point again?”
Yes...
… and if Bard’s only way to contribute meaningfully to the club was as a starter, I’d be fine with conjecture. However, given that there’s an actual downside to converting Bard (the loss of his reliever innings, the need to manage his innings for him to contribute in August/September/October, injury risk, my hunch that transitioning him back to relief is not as simple as flipping a switch) I’d like more than conjecture. The more you risk on conjecture, the more irresponsible the decision is. I also object to the fact that the Bard-as-Starter camp totally discounts his starting failure in the minors without acknowledging: (a) that it’s the best and only actual data we have; and (b) there’s something a bit (intellectually dishonest but less charged than those words) about eliminating that data set so you can conjecture.
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
So is your argument
that he cannot get big league hitters out as a starter, or that he will get injured doing it? My opinion is that he has shown he can get them out, and will have greater impact doing it as a starter.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
Has he shown he can get them out
Throwing 5mph slower?
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 1:08 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Will you know if he doesn't try?
Here is the thing. If he fails as a starter, you put him back in the pen, pretty simple.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Not if his arm is on Yawkey way while he's in the clubhouse.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
This.
Bard has substantial present-day major league value for the club as a reliever, which gets potentially impacted by the move. Unlike Will Middlebrooks, Bard doesn’t start at zero (or more or less zero) and you select an optimal development path – there’s a potential negative cost to futzing around with Bard. This is why the prospect analogy doesn’t work.
Also, this is why C.J. Wilson is a bad analogy from an economic standpoint – he was a mediocre reliever from my recollection.
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
Up and Down...
…great his last year before starting.
Dumb anyway to say “It works look at CJ!” as it is to say “NUH-UNH! Look at Joba!”
I think probably 5 is an exaggeration
but yes, I definitely agree with the point. Just probably 2-3 slower.
Hard to Believe
A debate where the only major detractors are Sean O and Lone David has even bothered to last this long.
If Bard keeps his arm attached as long as post-conversion Johann Santana I won’t be too unhappy.
If the only major detractors were me and Sean you'd be right
but you are oh, so wrong.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
It seems as though you are the minority in this case.
At least that’s what the poll shows.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't vote
neither did a lot of other people who agree with me.
The poll shows jack shit.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Yankees fans
And Ben Cherington’s 500 sbn accounts.
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 12:27 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
And WEEI jacktards.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, because those that disagree with either of you,
must be Yanks fans or jacktards(whatever the F that is). Hilarious.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
They don't *have* to be...
… but there’s some evidence of overlap.
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Really? Cite, please.
All I see in this thread is one long, reasonably well-researched article by Matt Kory, and a bunch of pissy children (on both sides) making snide remarks back and forth, both claiming the intellectual high ground without giving any evidence to support it.
Well, that constitutes "overlap"
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
Still, it really deflates your pejorative
when it applies equally well to the folks on your own side.
that word...
there’s that word again…i don’t think it means what you think it means…
Care to make an argument rather than just quoting movies?
(Seriously, though, The Princess Bride is great.)
arguments take too much energy...
movie quotes are more fun.
plus, i had to look it up
now my head hurts from the increased knowledge…
I've got one of those things, you know, a headache with pictures!
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
If you say so...
… I remain unchastized
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
Er
Unchastened. I suppose I was chastized, it just didn’t take.
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
I don’t mean to suggest you’re the only detractors to the idea, simply the only major detractors in this particular thread today.
But keep up the razor-sharp arguments grounded in a cocktail of wise old school scouting and rock-solid sabermetrics.
Yes
I agree there are plenty of others who feel it’s not a good idea. I simply mean you’re the only detractors in this particular thread today.
And though your arguments today are not exactly a considered mix of old school scouting and rock-solid sabermetrics, I have seen some of your more specific thoughts on the subject and think your points are generally valid, just not nearly reason enough not to try it.
Also, and this may surprise you both: you’re a tiny bit negative on occasion.
That's because
The worst case scenario happens pretty often.
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 12:59 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Especially for the Red Sox
when was the last time we caught a break? Four, five years ago?
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Ells and Beckett
Were both big breaks. That lackey and Crawford screwed up.
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 1:29 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I don't mind if they want to try him at it
But I just would rather they go in with more solid and proven options at the #4 and then let him try it out at #5 with a relatively short leash. I would actually they rather have other guys for 4 AND 5 so that we can keep Bard and Aceves in the bullpen. I have no faith in Jenks.
Hopefully, they don’t try to make him throw over the top again instead of 3/4 slot or tell him to nix his slider. They probably won’t mess around with his arm slot once he gets it comfortable but they might tell him to throw his slider less and changeup more.
What he does need to do is get his arm slot/release point in a place he is comfortable with and hits it consistently, he’s going to struggle whether he is pitching as a starter or reliever. In a couple of his bad outings at the end of the year, he was inconsistent with his arm slot and not surprisingly struggled. Earlier in the season he was consistent in it and dominated. You need to be consistent with that, especially as a young pitcher.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 11, 2012 1:11 PM EST reply actions
My guess is Jenks won't be ready until at least June.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
I would bet you're right.
And then he would be coming off a very long lay-off just like Dice-K will be. I just think it’s foolish to rely on those guys…but I recognize that you need to keep a roster spot for them.
I wish it wasnt’ so.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 11, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
assuming he hasn't added any more weight
which could push him out to august or later…
Apparently, the Rays are going to sign Luke Scott...
… so my hatred is needed elsewhere.
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 1:23 PM EST reply actions
As if I needed more of a reason to hate the Rays.
Remember when Crawford was hit in the nuts during that pickoff throw? I want that to happen to Scott every day for the rest of his career.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
I wanted him to be the closer
But since they traded for Bailey, I think Bard should be given a shot.
Check out my blog at http://conor-soxrox.blogspot.com
I think Bard and Aceves should be kept in the bullpen where they belong
A lot of people seem to ignore that without them our bullpen is okay, but with them our bullpen is up there with the 2010 Padres and 2011 Braves.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
I do think that with just one of them, our bullpen is very good,
just don’t love the idea of either of them starting.
Neither do I
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
What if he's as good starting as he is relieving?
In that case, it’s insanity to leave him in the bullpen. There’s simply no reason not to give a guy with that stuff a chance to pitch 200 innings instead of 70. He doesn’t have an injury history, and if anything his makeup is more cerebral and even-keeled and suited for long innings than a volcanic, manic type like Paps. And if it doesn’t work, you put him back in the pen. What’s the harm? It’s crazy not to try.
not to mention all they said
is bard and aceves get ready to start in offseason and spring training doesnt say they are locked in to the 4th and 5th spot in rotation. once spring training comes they will evaluate the best options they have and go with it . they have hinted for years that bards spot was in the rotation long term. they only viewed his move to the bullpen temporary to fix his mental lapses and lack of control.
"they have hinted for years that bards spot was in the rotation long term. "
Can you back that up with anything?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
actually no but i have read it before this past off season
and i remember when they moved him to the pen they said it was to fix his mechanics and control issues.
Oh, so just mechanics,
Mental lapses and control issues? Nothing to worry about!
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 2:30 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
oh and he was a kid then u think everyone goes
from college to cy young? thats what the minors are for. hey i am not sold on the idea either but i know one thing it isnt as dire as u negative sox fans make it out to be. he will have some growing pains this year but he has the talent to be a solid top of the rotation starter.
That's not really accurate
You can change your mechanics without changing your role. They are not fully dependent on one another. Some pitchers may alter it but it was not a “Let’s put him in the bullpen, that’ll fix it”. He still had control problems when he first went up to Portland in the bullpen.
When he came into the organization, they told him to throw more over the top instead of having his arm at the 3/4 slot. They tried to get him to stop throwing a slider and tried to teach him a 12-6 curveball because it fit with the arm angle they were trying to get him to use. We know the results. It was terrible. He said he couldn’t locate, felt like he was trying to pitch using someone else’s stuff and said, “screw this”.
He went back to 3/4, forgot about the 12-6 curve, turned his slurve into a slider and started with his hands in a different position. And he worked on it in the Hawaii league after the 2007 season. He was in the bullpen in that league (16 innings with an ERA around 1) and they decided to keep him there when he came back.
Bard could’ve stayed in the rotation and still made those changes.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 11, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
better to work those issues out of the pen
smaller sample size per outing, can focus on those fixes without fear of blowing up a game. the shorter outings help build confidence, and when you do screw up you know you still have work to do and someone else can come in with less potential for damaging a lead- when you are a starter your worrying about the entire line-up, pitching longer outings, there’s a whole lot more pressure when you factor in trying to tweak your mechanics too…
And considering he was historically awful
What if the mechanics were only a part? Given that we have argumentum ad ignorantum either way, why not err on the side of caution? Especially given his September collapse.
by Sean O on Jan 11, 2012 3:56 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I did not say that this was a good reason or an argument to put him at starter.
I’ve pretty much always said that while I don’t care if they give him a chance, I would rather they have a better option.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 11, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
If anyone one is interested
you can SEE his 2007 mechanics here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqjbo-POL4o
and an excellent breakdown of his current delivery here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cExdl1tvbfI
The difference is noticeable. 2007 Bard has a higher kick, much less forward momentum at his hand break, and a more dramatic tilt in his shoulders, raising his arm angle and pulling him across his body more. This is the delivery that caused his wildness. The 2011 version is faster, more driven by his lower body and more balanced.
- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
http://www.rantsports.com/boston-red-sox/
Write this down...
Bard will put up 160 innings of 115 ERA+..get tired, and they’ll shut him down in the 3rd week of August.
Let’s move on. Will Beckett and Buchholz be on the DL at any point at the same time next year?
If that happens
I will be very, very surprised. I would be shocked if he made it out of May before being put back in the bullpen with an ERA+ worse than Lackey’s last year.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
This just wasn't the right thing to do THIS offseason
They’re short on money with several expensive positions to fill.
If this were another year, where we had money or less holes on the roster with a 5th starter that was decent but inexpensive, go ahead try it.
However, instead of find starting pitchers, our offseason focus to date has been rebuild the pen.
All these people saying ‘just move him back to the pen if he can’t start’ are ignoring something very important, the money. We’ve put several million into the pen now, planning on Bard not being there. We replaced Bard and Papelbon with Melancon and Bailey, good players of course, but paid in full, not retractable and not likely to be converted to starters. All indications are that the Sox aren’t going to spend much more money this offseason, if we move Bard back to the pen, one or both of those acquisitions have become superfluous but we have to live with them and whatever cheap option we use to fill that 5th rotation spot. So with that we have a super stocked pen, but a crappy rotation with a lot less money to fix it than if we had just left Bard where he was in the first place and went out and got starting pitchers.
This is only a success if it works, there is risk involved that isn’t as easy to fix as ‘put him back in the pen’ if need be.
On top of that, I don’t put a lot of stock in this working anyway. Bard is very effective at 100 mph and the mechanics that let him throw that hard. Some things will have to change because he cannot throw that hard as a starter. I question if he can be effective at 94-95 as he was at 99-100.
People also like to point at CJ Wilson or Lowe and say ‘well they did it!’ they’re also ignoring that the two of them were brought up in the minors as starters, were converted to relievers and then back. Bard was primarily a reliever in the minors. The jobs are different and he doesn’t have that training the way they did.
I’m counting on him for 150 innings maximum assuming he doesn’t get injured so there are either going to be stretches were he doesn’t pitch, or they may keep him in routine and shut him down in August when he hits their innings mark, or they keep him on a pitch count and he gets pulled after 5 innings every game. He’s never pitched more than 101 innings a season in his life and that was in college, mid 70s is what’s been put on his arm the last few seasons. One way or another, even if he is good, I don’t think we can count on him to be helpful when we may need him most at the end of the year.
There are too many questions about this for me to think this is a good idea on this offseason. This team has way too much to prove to it’s fans to toss our closer in waiting into the rotation and wish on a star. If they can’t get a Kuroda or Oswalt type to firm up the front 4, than this front office has really failed at it’s job by trying to be too clever.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Penn State Forever
by Rogue Nine on Jan 11, 2012 4:10 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
This experiment has the potential
to revisit what we already saw in 2011…trying to cover Bucholz innings with the collective mediocre arms by committee…
several million on the pen?
Melancon and Bailey make about a million between them. short money and I don’t believe either is arb eligible soon. At this point, Jenks makes a lot more than the rest of the bullpen put together.
Bard makes about $500K and I belive the move to the rotation is an attempt to save money on the rotation this way rather than adding two FA starters. Look, the Sox have over $25 million of pitching (Dice-K, Lackey) out for the year, so they had to do something to address these holes. On the face of it, I would rather see Bard left in the bullpen, but I guess in Ben we trust.
On the other hand, you are correct that Bard likely won’t pitch more than 150-160 innings, like a below average 5th starter. That’s why I belive they need to to out and sign Kuroda or another FA pitcher that then can count on for 180-200 innings.
which makes WAY better sense
than taking the cheap way out now.
Bailey is looking at about $3.5M in ARB
Plus you have to consider the money spent on Punto and Sweeney which were required to replace our trade pieces Lowrie and Reddick, probably another extra $1.5M over what they would have made.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Penn State Forever
Perfectly stated.
I present you the clapping scene from Birdemic in tribute: (ignore the weird title; it’s perfectly sfw)
Wow, I feel exactly the opposite
I would be against moving Bard to the rotation in a different year, but THIS year, I’m open to it, for several of the reasons you stated, Rogue. Facts:
1. This is an incredibly difficult year to find starting pitching.
2. This is an incredibly easy year to find relief pitching.
3. Thanks to Epstein’s incredibly poor end to his tenure, we have very little money to spend.
So this seems to be exactly the year to build a strong pen on the cheap and then get creative with starting pitching, such as, say, seeing if your best reliever can start. I don’t feel particularly confident it will work, but I don’t buy at all the argument that he’s in any more danger of hurting his arm as a starter than as a reliever. There’s just no evidence that that’s true. It’s not like relievers are known for having long, consistent careers.
by Jake_W on Jan 11, 2012 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I don't think 1 is valid
There are plenty of pitchers, who we know can start at an MLB level, who have been available.
The FA market is VERY slim at the top, Wilson, Buehrle, Jackson, Darvish really. The rest though, and those available via trade, have been alright.
The problem is that we haven’t moved on any of them so the market looks smaller than it is.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Penn State Forever
Yeah
If you want to overpay for mediocrity.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
But at least you have some expectations of what the hell it is you're getting.
I am Sandy's bitch.
Penn State Forever
So overpaying for crap...
Is better than underpaying for possible crap, that might be something much better?
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
+1
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
consider the fail safe buttons
break glass in case of emergency and enter in Cook or Silva? and who’s roster spots will they take upon coming up? and are they really the options we want if this doesn’t work?
Another "bridge" year
With the loss of Dice-K and Lackey, with $25 million sitting on the shelf, it looks like the Sox are simply trying to patch and hope for 2012. We better hope Beckett and Lester have very good years and Bucholz stays healthy. any erosion in thes three and the Sox are cooked this year.
Dice_K will pitch for the Sox in 2012.
He is way ahead of schedule.
http://www.nikkansports.com/baseball/mlb/news/p-bb-tp2-20120108-886520.html
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
Dice-K
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
I love how Chrome translated that for me
Example:
Without strong arm ball swung into the female scared right elbow, catcher mitt fits in with such a high spin hypothenar of stringy
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 11, 2012 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
Is it wrong...
… that I think that’s probably literally what’s going on with Dice right now?
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
That sentence reads like a really convoluted and terrible version of mad libs.
To your question, no. It would be wrong if you didn’t feel that way.
by The Name is Dalton on Jan 11, 2012 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
I think we all should temper our expectations
The Sox are clearly not trying to compete this year.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
You mean trading for Brad Emaus isn't what's going to put us over?
I am Sandy's bitch.
Penn State Forever
Well, we'd have something entertaining to watch...
The Year of Extreme Opinions
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
If Bard didn't have the mystique of throwing 99MPH, nobody would care about this potential experiment
The fact of the matter is that Bard in the big picture, as a reliever, is not that valuable. Despite the zoom zoom fastball and the aw cool slider, he’s a soon to be 27 year old with a 3.22 career FIP. From the way people are howling over the (supposed) possibility of him snapping his arm off or breaking into a million pieces, you’d think he was Rivera. Bard is a useful reliever, but he isn’t even close to an indispensable part of this team. With the addition of Melancon and Bailey the bullpen is an area of strength, any way you slice it.
Any time you have an opportunity to make one of your assets more valuable, you do it. That is how winning teams operate and succeed. Texas went to the World Series with their ENTIRE starting rotation combined earning less than Josh Beckett. Two of those starters were converted relievers. Maximizing your value.
If Bard succeeds, then you acquired a young starter with electric stuff under team control until 2016 without giving up anything.
If Bard fails, he goes back to the bullpen and life goes on.
If his arm disintegrates, too freaking bad. Replace him with virtually anybody else vaguely competent and you might lose 1 WAR at most. Both in terms of player and economic value, the upside gained by the possible positive result (Succeeds) far far outweighs the potential loss represented by a negative (Fails) or catastrophic (Injury) result.
Lastly if you think the team is “uncompetitive” for 2012, you clearly paid no attention to anything that occurred in 2011. This team will return an MLB-leading offense, two top-30 starters and a strong bullpen. The Yankees won 97 games last year with an inferior offense and a rotation consisting of CC and the Four Stooges.
"We’re the Sox. Not Apple Sox. We ain’t no Barbeque Sox. We’re the Red Sox.’’ - David Ortiz
by L33to II on Jan 11, 2012 4:54 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
That's a really heartless approach
I mean, we could have more money to spend on pitching if we have Bard rob a bank, but it’s probably not in our, or his, best interest.
Also, good teams need pitching. We have none.
IF BARD FAILS HE GOES BACK TO THe BULLPEN
that’s the point- WHO then takes the mound with any reasonable expectation of success?
We took a team that didn't make the playoff last year
And, hard as it is to imagine, made it worse in every phase of the game. The offense doesn’t have Reddick and Ells is basically guaranteed to regress. The starting pitching, hard as it is to fathom, is even worse off than when we had John Lackey starting for us, and the bullpen has replaced Bard, Lackey, and Aceves with Melancon and Bailey.
Excuse me if I don’t go out and buy my world series tickets right away.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 11, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
That was the best post I've read.
Well done.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Jan 11, 2012 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
While not nonsensical by any means, this analysis would make more sense if...
- “not that valuable” and “not valuable at all” were the same thing;
- there was any reasonable way to project the likelihood that Bard will be an effective starter;
- Bard actually had a giant START/RELIEF light switch on his back; and/or
- the only source for starting pitching in the known universe was Daniel Bard.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
I feel it's worth noting
That perhaps I took your posts for granted during the ‘11 season, because this offseason you’ve been regularly hilarious.
Thanks.
The constant stopping to scream at the television during Sox games was disrupting my flow.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 12, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Bard as starter....
… would probably not be as viscerally objectionable (to some – self included), if it didn’t seem like the Red Sox were attempting to claim they intentionally invented floor-pie, rather than admitting they dropped the pie on the floor.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 11, 2012 7:16 PM EST reply actions
I don't either
Are you saying you wouldn’t object so strongly to Bard as a starter if the Red Sox admitted that it was a bad idea before they did it? If they admitted it was a desperation move?
Why on Earth would they do that? Why would you WANT them to do that? I can’t be reading that right…
No,
He’s saying that the Red Sox aren’t converting Bard to be a starter because it’s the right move, they’re doing it because they almost literally have no other options. It tends to lessen the confidence in the move when done from desperation.
I’ve been fighting to get that changed for ever! Nobody will listen to me!
Writer at Over The Monster. Follow me on Twitter! It'll be super awesome fun! @mattymatty2000
by Matthew Kory on Jan 12, 2012 1:59 AM EST up reply actions
The problem is
that we are all such @#$%ing geniuses, that we need to remind people that this isn’t an official Red Sox blog, no matter how smart we sound.
It’s a legal thing.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
That, and Kory's suggestion was
OTM: Fans of poop jokes.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 12, 2012 7:58 AM EST up reply actions
I definitely prefer pie.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I am giving your userpic a very stern look right now.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Watch out Tarrsk
Canadians are all 1/3 polar bear. It’s in their Constitution.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 12, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions

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