Francona To Leave The Red Sox?
by Marc Normandin on Sep 30, 2011 12:21 AM EDT
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The question in the headline is popping up around the Internet, as Red Sox manager Terry Francona is set to meet with Red Sox management Friday to discuss his future with the team. Or, according to some reports, his future elsewhere -- Francona is expected to tell the Red Sox to decline his options, releasing him from his eight-year tenure, according to the Chicago-Sun Times.
Theo Epstein, per Ken Rosenthal, who reports that this might be the team's decision:
"But I know we don't believe in scapegoats, particularly blaming Tito for what happened in September. We all failed collectively. We're all together in this; we've got to live with that. We're not pointing fingers at any one person in particular."
Epstein, however, may not have the final say. Ownership could conclude that Francona, after eight seasons of leading the Red Sox, has simply run his course as manager.
As the Sun-Times mentions, Francona could ask to let his contract run its course on his own, allowing him to pursue jobs elsewhere. Chicago seems the likely destination, given he is a former Cub, and a former White Sox minor-league coach, and both of those clubs will have openings.
We'll know very soon one way or the other whether Francona is coming back or not (and who made the decision, be it management or Terry himself), as, even without this meeting set for Friday, the team has just nine days left to pick up his option or decline
UPDATE: Per the Boston Herald's John Tomase, Francona had some reasons for frustrations...
According to multiple sources with knowledge of the meeting, Francona was in part annoyed over complaints about the buses to the ballpark and wanted players to focus their energy more positively.
Meanwhile, a number of players put themselves into a position to have their professionalism called into question. According to multiple sources, more than one pitcher drank beer in the clubhouse during games on the days he didn't pitch.
The whole drinking beers thing wouldn't sound so bad were it not for the conditioning issues that were brought up by Buster Olney about a month ago. (~Ben)
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i don't understand why people are blaming him
was he supposed to pull movie magic out of his ass to get these guys to win?
by brighten the corners on Sep 30, 2011 12:26 AM EDT reply actions
If you ask around here... yes apparently.
It might have been Francona’s fault that this happened but I really think it’s inconclusive. I think a lot of things happened and there is no way to pin it on any one single person and the mentally of “someone must be fired” is really stupid but way too prevalent.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Well, sort of.
If you’re the sort of person who credits Francona with stuff like keeping the team together in 2004, then don’t you also have to blame him for not being able to rally them?
It’s this sort of ephemeral thing that managers are often judged on in addition to in-game strategy. Not saying it’s right, but if it goes one way it should also go the other.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions
If it was just the team squabiling
Then I’d say it was Francona’s fault. But Sox didn’t loose because they couldn’t get along and were acting entitled. He didn’t injure Daisuke or Youk or Buchholz. He wasn’t out there pitching and giving up leads. And yes you can say he should have pulled people faster, but ALL of the pitchers should have been pitching better. In September when we needed our starters to pull through, they didn’t. That isn’t Tito’s fault. And good God, the craptitiude of John Lackey isn’t Tito’s fault.
This all may be redundant to later comments, I haven’t read them all yet, it’s 8:00 am and they’re already past #330!
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Francona
had nothing to do with 6 blown saves in September (with one arguable exception) and nothing to do with a starting rotation that had an ERA of 7.08 in September, which was the worst in Major League baseball by over a run. Of course, the problems in the starting rotation meant that Boston relievers pitched the most innings of any group in baseball (by more than 10 Innings) in September.
Managers get fired all the time for very little reason, but it is a little grating that we are cutting yet another connection to the glory days.
Really, though, the state of the staff in September had a lot more to do with Theo than with Francona.
Given that the season
ended with a blown save by Papelbon, I am not so sure as you are that he was always the answer. Papelbon seldom pitched in the 8th.
You can argue on several occasions he left Bard in too long, and in one case I think you would be right. The others I think, are less clear.
But the bullpen we being stressed, and it was being stressed by a historic collapse by the starting rotation.
The state of the starting rotation was far more Theo’s doing than Francona’s.
Papelbon is there as our bullpen savior
He is there to fix the problems that others create. There were multiple times this year where the current guy on the mound was done, or had absolutely nothing (Albers/Cubs, Bard vs the Jays multiple times). Papelbon was not ready to come in to bail them out.
If you do that
you risk overusing Papelbon, which was one reason offered for his sub-par years in 2010 and 2009.
Not saying you are right or wrong, just saying there was a reason he wasn’t used in the 8th, just as many other closers are not used.
Many people here have argued Bard was better than Papelbon. Until September he was certainly as good.
Bard;s collapse in September was simply stunning. There is nothing I can see that suggested he was about to post an ERA of over 10 in September, You might argue that at some point he should have just used someone else, but who that might be isn’t all that clear to me. Saying that he should have used Papelbon in all of these situations strikes me as unrealistic.
Bottom line, if Bard performs anything close to his typical level, the Red Sox are worried about the Rangers.
And again, how the collapse is not more at the feet of Theo is something I don’t understand.
Back seat bullpen managing is the worst kind of manager criticism.
It is impossible for you to know the exact circumstances of the moves. If having Papelbon up was obvious to you, trust me, the guy being paid to make that decision was aware of it before you were because he’s been doing it for most of his adult life. You have no idea what weekly pitch counts are, who slept in a funny position on the plane and is achy, who had a rough breakup with a girl the night before and isn’t in the right mind frame to pitch. None of that. A lot more goes into than the caveman like assertion that “Papelbon good, he go in now.”
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Amazing how tito is a perfect genius
Who is a victim of circumstance every time. And I certainly wish I had a chorus of vocal support to remove all blame at my last job.
Oh, to live in a world without accountability.
by Sean O on Sep 30, 2011 11:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Sean, you are being extreme
and inflexible & seem to be reveling in the failure.
This was a collapse, it was bad and many saw it coming. Tito, the owners,other coaches and the players either did nothing or what they could do.
"Play Hard Always"
Yeah, reveling
This is exactly what I needed to turn this year around.
by Sean O on Sep 30, 2011 12:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If you were privvy to this sort of information please tell me
Otherwise you know essentially nothing about this to be able to criticize.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
You aren't a manager
I know enough to not even bother pretending I am. There is more that goes into the decision than we could ever hope to know. Just because a decision didn’t work out doesn’t mean it wasn’t the right move at the time.
Like I said, if you know this other information that needs to go into bullpen moves, by all means criticize, if you don’t you’re largely speaking out of your ass about it.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Bard had nine losses
And lost several key games when paps wasn’t put in or was put in too late. Not all are circumstance.
I defend tito when he put paps in the game he blew. That was on paps. Other times, boy that would be quite a confluence of events for bard to have to finish it off, no?
by Sean O on Sep 30, 2011 12:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Could be. But we don't know.
If we don’t know, we have no right talking about it as if we do know because we’re really clueless about the situation.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Man...come on.
The reasons Francona gave for leaving Bard in in that Jays game were lame. Paps isn’t used to/doesn’t like doing more than three outs. Some sort of career splits that totaled 8 at bats. Stuff like that.
If a guy is injured, you can say, “Hey…this guy is a little stiff today, so he’s probably only available for this.” If he broke up with his girlfriend, well suck it up, buttercup.
What you’re essentially saying is that we, as fans, have no right to criticize any move a manager makes because we “just don’t know the whole story”. Which is nonsense. If that were the case, they should shut down OTM tomorrow.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Not any, but most.
To say you know better when you know far less of what is going on is rather silly isn’t it?
We can speculate, but to say that Tito can’t manage a bullpen well is largely heresay because you aren’t speaking on fact.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
You are speaking on the evidence you see before you
and the evidence you are given.
Much of managing is based on facts…and much is based on “gut”. And timing.
And that is where “back seat bullpen managing” comes in.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Isn’t most of the “gut” the aforementioned things we can’t possibly know about?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Well here is where the rest of the wheels fall off. Instead of fixing a problem, they will have created another one.
Remember
We don’t know if it’s Francona asking out, or ownership getting rid of him. We’ll have to wait until we hear tomorrow before we see if this was a mistake or simply honoring a request.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Sep 30, 2011 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm still trying to figure out why he would want to though.
I could see them setting it up anyway so it looks like he’s leaving on his own terms, but I can’t think of a reason why he would want to leave without some pressure.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Because a collapse like that is incredibly emotionally draining?
That’d be my guess.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions
It's why we have an off season to recharge. Every year should be emotionally draining.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Yes, but not to this extent.
In the same vein that I didn’t want to wake up in the morning, and that when the next season rolls around it will actually probably open fresh wounds…I can see why someone would want to leave it behind.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions
What faith would anybody have
that this team, after filling the holes of the (hopefully) departed, has any chance of making the playoffs next season?
Plenty if you feel it was a conditioning/health issue.
If they can just keep it together for September, they’re fine.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Conditioning has nothing to do with a 6-20 September
That is an un-arrestable collapse. 23 people don’t suddenly become out of shape.
No, but if there's an atmosphere that doesn't promote hard work towards that, enough can to make the difference.
Ellsbury was fine, Scutaro was clearly doing well. But what about Lester, Beckett, Ortiz, and Gonzalez? If those four aren’t right, then a run-of-the-mill slump can snowball.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I honestly don't know what the problem was
Perhaps a perfect storm. Honestly the only answer that seems to explain how the team could be that awful is the least probable one: that we threw it.
Or the Umpires were fucking us
Or baseball is scripted.
That second one also kinda explains the Rays suddenly being good.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
It's amazing how scripted last night felt.
Never going to say it really WAS, because everything in my mind tells me it’s impossible/insane.
But God, did it ever?
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions
roughly as scripted as the 2004 ALCS
But, nice thing about baseball is, lot harder to script than, say, basketball.
Christ, the NBA
Them and FIFA. Not a lick of trust.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions
It was the first thought that popped into my head
as soon as I saw the Rays make that comeback. It just went off “Bullshit, there’s no way shit like this happens. This is fake.”
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Ben, I am with you on that thought
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Thing is, they weren't good
They were suddenly what they always were. We were suddenly a junior high rec team.
I meant since 2008
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions
No man, that shit takes time
you can’t just flip a switch.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions
In case you were not aware,
“The Perfect Storm” is the nickname (listed on B-R) for Carl Crawford. You may be more right than you know.
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
by Tessie's Dad on Sep 30, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There's an article on Yahoo about it
either that or SBN, can’t remember which.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Gonzalez?
He didn’t hit .340, but he did hit over .300. His drop off was nowhere near Beckett and Lester’s. Factor in he didn’t have much protection in the line up the last month…
Pitching and fielding, mostly the utility guys playing full time, were the problem.
simul justus et peccator
it doesn't take 23 people to collapse.
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
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It's been eight years
And a job he might be very interested in has opened up in Chicago. Maybe just time for a change, especially in light of recent events.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Sep 30, 2011 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Obviously I'm no fan of Francona
But I’d be surprised if the team is really pushing for this so much as Francona is just…tired, I guess.
There’s a ton of people to blame, and while I’d be happy to jump on board the wagon of Francona not lighting a fire, it’s just not really something I believe in all that much.
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I agree with you Ben
This is not a team of 12-year olds. They are grown men and paid several million dollars and while you can toss a little blame at Tito for not getting at these guys, I think he has obviously tried in some ways and they just don’t listen. The ‘04 team was just different guys and they may have responded to his methods, but they also probably took it upon themselves to be leaders. This group didn’t do that.
When you have players complaining about bus rides, or slugging beers in the clubhouse before game, or have guys like Gonzo/Ortiz never running hard to 1B on grounders it speaks to the character of the players.
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 8:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't be surprised if Francona was tired either
He didn’t have a lot of health problems a couple of years ago. He might just be done with the stress. The Media, the players, the constant desire to go back to chew. It can wear on you.
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*did have a lot of health problems
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No way.
I think it would be a huge mistake letting Francona go. He is by far one of the best managers in the game and I just don’t see who we could replace him with that would be any better.
Whether or not this is Tito's fault
things needed to be shaken up. This is two years now that we’ve missed the playoffs after getting bounced by Orange County in ’09. Changes need to be made and this is only the first of many.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
A Yankee fan's thoughts
Terry Francona doesn’t get the respect he deserves. He managed in a town that’d been yearning for a championship for 86 years. And he finally let them bask in glory – twice in fact. Managing in cities like Boston and New York put so much pressure on one’s shoulders that oftentimes, it’s expected of you to do poorly under the high scrutiny but Francona has not by any metric had a poor managing record in Boston. Bar the last few seasons, he’s been one of the most successful managers in Boston Red Sox history, leading them to like I said, 2 of their 7 championships in the past 90 years.
Hiring a new manager will be a move that takes the Red Sox backwards next year. There’s good enough chemistry between Francona and his players. The reason the Red Sox failed to make the postseason this year is not Terry Francona. With a rookie manager next year, or even a manager that has managed elsewhere, the Red Sox will most likely turn the page towards a new chapter, the construction of a whole new era, in Red Sox history. And that’s not what the Red Sox need right now. They were a little bit of luck away from World Series contenders this year and will be playoff contenders again next year.
Red Sox fans are screaming for Francona’s head right now, solely because they need a scapegoat for their teams’ recent failures. But once the offseason begins and everything cools down, they’ll change their minds and realize that Francona is the man for the job next year. The only thing is, the front office doesn’t have that long. They have until October 8 (10 days following the conclusion of the Red Sox’s season, as per Francona’s contract) to accept his club option and return him as manager. So the front office needs to make a decision soon, and in my opinion, the right move is to keep Terry Francona as skipper for the 2012 season.
Cyril P
liryc715@yahoo.com
by Cyrilp on Sep 30, 2011 1:08 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I honestly think if Francona is gone...
It will be because he wants out. I don’t see ownership overstepping Theo on this one.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Sep 30, 2011 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions
...how do you arrive at that conclusion, exactly?
If he wants to leave, it’s not like they can just throw buckets of money at him and say, “Be unhappy here, but be paid well!” He can get any available job he wants with his resume, why would he stay if he wanted to leave?
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Sep 30, 2011 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think that's what he's saying...
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
With that I won't argue,
That the organization would even consider the slight possibility that he should keep his job, and that Theo is AMAZINGLY not even being considered for removal, would prove they no longer care.
There it is.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
It's hard to keep track of who everyone doesn't like
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Sep 30, 2011 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Sean is easy:
Everyone
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Ellsbury is the current exception
And man, Fenway is still a nice ballpark. Maybe someday it’ll have players worthy of calling it home.
Well, Fenway isn't a who. Please, God, tell me you don't consider it a "who"
And Ellsbury still has a nickname with a negative connotation, so…
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I was trying to think of something else Red Sox related I liked
And I’ve reconfigured Skylab to mean Ellsbury launching balls into space, not knowing where they’ll land.
No it doesn't
It shows you that because you want him gone. You don’t not speak for the fanbase as a whole.
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions
There is no backwards from this
We are literally in the worst situation conceivable. And I use literally the way it should be.
The Los Angeles Dodgers called...
… they had to use a prepaid burner cell, because they can’t qualify for a cellular contract, and they don’t want their creditors to be able to track them.
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Sep 30, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
that is ridiculous
I used to say that Pats fans were the new Yankee fans based on the endless whining, narrow views and sense of entitlement.
Sox fans are hot on their heels.
And, yes, I am sweeping with a broad brush.
"Play Hard Always"
We are literally in the worst situation conceivable
90 wins this year despite a TON of injuries and bad performances.
Terry Francona’s Win totals as Red Sox manager: 98, 95, 86, 96, 95, 95, 89, 90.
WORST SITUATION CONCEIVABLE. Just don’t tell Orioles fans, Royals fans or you know… tons of teams that never have success like this.
They're able to get that kind of success
with half the payroll and a third of the expectations.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
In the same way that people let him off the hook for 2011 by saying "He doesn't throw the pitches/swing the bats,"
he also doesn’t win the championships.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Jays fan here
I agree completely with this.
Blaming Terry Francona for the fact that you guys did not make the playoffs this year is absolutely asinine.
The fact is if you guys fire Francona, you are probably not going to find a manager as good as him to replace him, it’s easy to blame a manager when the team under-performs, and his track record more than proves that he is a capable manager.
And any Sox fan that thinks you are in some kind of terrible situation because you missed the playoffs needs to realize…. you guys won 90 games in the most competitive division in baseball, in a sport where it is incredibly difficult to even get into the playoffs year in and year out.
Missing the playoffs once is really not the end of the world.
by Huey2k2 on Sep 30, 2011 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cannot believe the number of non-Sox fans showing up to try to save Francoma
You oversee the greatest collapse in regular season sports history, you get fired. nuf. friggin. ced.
Who said anything about trying to save him?
Personally I would be very very happy if you guys fired him, I just think from an organizational standpoint it makes absolutely no sense.
Ditto.
From a Yankee fan perspective, it would be sweet if the Red Sox fired Francona because they would not find a manager like him and will as a result underperform to an extent.
But only second am I a Yankee fan. First, I’m a baseball fan who loves to see parity, competitiveness, and the old-fashioned Yankees-Red Sox rivalry. And whenever the Yankees play the Sox, I always want the best possible Sox coming out to play us, and at this point, that best possible skipper would be Terry Francona.
Cyril P
liryc715@yahoo.com
I would be thrilled with underperforming
I have serious doubts that we can make the playoffs even with a great improvement. So, only winning 85 games means I won’t have my brain blown to bits on Game 162. Sounds great to me.
So...
apparently 2004 and 2007 mean nothing….
that’s silly.
I think 2 WS titles overcomes 1 really crappy year.
2004 and 2007 mean about $300m in salary
And this is not 1 crappy year. This is the greatest collapse in regular season sports history.
i didn't say you weren't accurate
It is the greatest collapse. I fail to see why 2004 and 2007 are not more important. First WS win in over 80 years. Followed by another in 3. Both included dramatic comebacks. And then WS sweeps.
Yet somehow, this doesn’t make up for September 2011.
I fail to see how, if crazy day-after emotions are thrown out.
not about making up for this September
when you lead that sort of collapse, you’re gone. Plain and simple. If you twiddle your thumbs while the factory you’re supposed to run burns to the ground, you get fired. If you’re a pilot and slam the plane into the terminal (and survive), you get fired.
not fair analogies
He clearly was not twiddling his thumbs doing nothing. Just because you didn’t see it didn’t mean he wasn’t working. Do you really think this was all because of Tito’s incompetence? Really?
Nope
A collapse of this magnitude involves the entire baseball operations department. And therefore I want many, or all, of them gone.
To the first point: John Lackey threw 160 innings this season. Reason alone why T__o need to be fired.
Who the hell else was going to pitch those innings?
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this
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
Herreshoff.info -- The most awesome website since the invention of the internet.
Things just need to be shaken up
I like Francona, he was great while he was here, but it’s time to move on. I felt the same way about Manny and Schill.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions
They want him to stay so they have a better shot next year
Duh Sean, that’s why they’re all AL East fans.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Quite the opposite actually
I would be incredibly happy if you guys fired Francona.
And that is one of the reasons why I think you guys shouldn’t be so hasty to jump to conclusions.
Do you not see the contradiction here:
it’s easy to blame a manager when the team under-performs, and his track record more than proves that he is a capable manager.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough
It is just almost never a good idea to make a rash decision like firing a manager after one bad season just because the organization feels like it has to blame someone.
It makes a lot more sense to give it a few days and weigh out the options.
But hey...
As a Jays fan, if you guys want to fire Francona, I say go for it!
My post seems to have disappeared into dust, so I'll re-add it:
I agree, and I don’t particularly like the other candidates offered by the managerial “in-circle.” But I want to stop all the posts where people follow up “2004, 2007, ’nuff said” with “you can’t blame Tito for 2011!”
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions
100% on board with that, really.
But I’d add that I don’t really think Francona is to blame for…THIS.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Is that an actual saying?
or are you quoting me?
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough
Honestly firing Francona could theoretically be the best thing for you guys in the long run, I just think it’s absurd to think that the very next day is the best time to make that decision.
Of course it is
Fans need to know the team cares about the future, and is taking decisive action. Decisions for who needs to be there don’t need to happen immediately, but the decision of who it won’t be need to happen pronto.
T__o need to be gone.
Are you blanking that out because you don't want to type his name
Or because you don’t care which one leaves?
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions
No
It’s ’cause he hopes BOTH leave.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Ben, did you see my suggestion for 2012 gamethreads?
Are you ignoring it on purpose? Must I shake my fist in the general direction of Wisconsin?
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn't, actually, no.
Is it in here? I refreshed a couple of times, which could leave posts unread.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions
My fanpost
“A Suggestion for 2012.”
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, elsewhere.
I’d been mostly off the site until now. Needed a breather, y’know?
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I got you
I went down to Stillwater’s today and picked up two six-packs. I have one bottle left.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, as has been pointed out, they're forced into it.
Plus, if this IS just Terry leaving of his own accord—and I actually think it is—then there’s not much to be done.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions
That also absolutely makes our front office look weak and indecisive
They should’ve acted today. Now it looks like they can’t make up their minds.
You have a second chance guys, fire the other T__o.
No, at worst it makes it look like they're giving him a chance to leave graciously
Which IS the least they can do, no matter what.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
"There's no place like it, and it's ours." - Stephen King on Fenway Park
by 808BostonSportsFan on Sep 30, 2011 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
A billion dollar business
Ruthlessness and vindictiveness doesn’t inspire others to join your organization.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Are your old employer's decisions broadcasted on ESPN?
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Disgraceful? No.
But if the organization gained a reputation for coldness, it’s certainly something other prospective managers and players would think about when deciding whether or not to sign on with us or others.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions
that's actually great news
Anything we can do to keep FAs from wanting to be here would be brilliant.
by Sean O on Sep 30, 2011 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ha!
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't work for Sears
they were heartless, and everyone in the legal department bailed. Now they’re getting the crap sued out of them.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Your old employer
wasn’t smart enough to retain good employees.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Unceremoniously firing the guy with two rings--"earned" or not--and eight years at the helm?
Doesn’t make good managers want to work here.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Ruthless is firing him in the middle of September
Or in the middle of last April. After what just occurred, I cannot believe anyone would think he deserves his job. It’s a business, the team needs to move forward, and they need to get rid of the dead wood. Get started ASAP, and gain the benefit of showing you’re willing to immediately fix the problem.
Joe Torre had arguably even more success
was in a worse situationin NY, was forced out, and Cashman still had people beating down the door for that job.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions
But we don't know if that decision influenced any others.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions
exactly
we are the BOSTON RED SOX. I, personally, would much rather work for an organization who is set on fixing its problems.
Which happens whether or not they allow him to leave graciously, no?
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I think there is damage in not taking action
it radiates weakness. It makes it seem like the org wasn’t going to fire him.
And yet, if he leaves peaceably tomorrow, there's not a man on Earth who won't wonder if they did.
The idea is there either way. It’s just a matter of what’s in question.
“Did they fire him?”
or
“Couldn’t they have let him leave graciously?”
The former you can’t really hold against them. The latter you easily can.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Fans aren't the ones I'm worried about so much
As the people who could be asking themselves “will I find myself in that position?”
Obviously we’d hope they’d perform well enough not to, but shit, they can’t be sure if they will.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I truly doubt the Red Sox
would be starved for managerial candidates, barring anything but a public hanging in the Fens.
Not likely, but why be the bad guys when the potential negatives outweigh the potential positives.
It’s an entirely miniscule part of a much larger picture, but there’s no reason not to do it right.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm biased
but definitely placing the needs of the fans over that of hypothetical managerial applicants.
What are the needs of the fans here?
Revenge? ‘Cause clearly that’s not true for most of them.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions
You don't think a bunch of tix buying folks
are wondering why should they bother this year, right now?
You think that firing Terry Francona gives them reason to?
So far, the overwhelming reaction of the fanbase has been in support of Francona, and that was pretty damned predictable just by virtue of interacting with it daily.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Here and Twitter.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions
There are a lot of fans on Twitter.
Most support him.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions
perhaps I misjudged the idiocy of our fanbase
Forgot the #1 rule: never underestimate the idiocy of humans.
Take it as you will.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Always bet on incompetence
(which should maybe replace the We Will Not Rest Until Order Is Restored slogan?)
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Sep 30, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
You want the actual way to ensure this?
Cut John Lackey. That’d make the fanbase almost unanimously happy.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
We lose nothing by seeing if he has anything. But that’s the way to ensure ticket sales. This doesn’t help. It might even hurt.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions
So make a panic move
And show the fanbase the front office’s heads have divided by zero.
I would post the same pic I did below if this post bubble didn’t seem to be dividing by zero itself. O_o
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
There is no panic in this
simple equation:
if you manage the greatest regular season collapse in history, you get fired.
So we're the Mets now
Awesome.
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
I'll take their season tickets
I’ll take your season tickets.
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
Lol
Oh, so the fans are still gonna be in their seats, after all. Just like I thought.
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
Since you don't listen
You’re not very familiar with the ticketing situation these days, are you? It’s not 2004 anymore.
My thought is
It’s the BOSTON RED SOX. Any manager can go in there and succeed, and if they hire a first time manager, or a newish manager a la Sandberg or Quade (I know, I’m obsessed with Chicago guys tonight) they’ll be able to build their resumes and go get a job elsewhere even if they do get fired.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Radiates weakness to WHO?
You want vengeance, plain and simple.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
by Bloggy on Sep 30, 2011 6:29 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I find it crazy
That you are ready to run a man who helped bring you guys two world series out of town after one bad season, and don’t even have enough of a heart to let him go gracefully.
Behold the face of unbridled hate.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Change isn't always good
A day after a big loss, people are prone to think change is needed. But has anyone considered that change is what led the club into this position? Think about all the major changes in the club over the last few years. It’s hard to get a good chemistry going and respect for other players, etc., when people are in and out constantly.
Personally, I think keeping the team very close to the same might be better, assuming you fix some of the problems apparently going on behind the scenes. Perhaps giving them the chance to work together from this would be better. But I dunno, could be wrong. Still, I think the club has changed a bit too much as of the last few years, not necessarily because of their own fault.
This is not without merit.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Of course
This is bullshit. Beneath the Red Sox. Please don’t do something you won’t regret, front office.
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
That you WILL regret, even
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
What do you honestly expect them to do?
“Gee shucks Terry, don’t do it again! Good luck next season!”
Accountability should not be dead.
Lol
I’m an accounting major, enough said. : )
But seriously, firing someone two or three days after this looks stupid. What are we, the Yankees with George Steinbrenner? We need to re-group, but not in haste and not in rage.
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
No, we regroup with haste and rage
because that’s what the fans deserve. They’ve been stewing in despair for a month now, while the organization didn’t as much as give a press conference showing disapproval. It looks like they’re sleepwalking.
They let Francona finish the year, and now everyone must go.
Ok...maybe with haste
but with rage? Because we deserve it? We deserve a World Series banner, and moves that will make that happen. If that includes rage, fine. But something tells me that will just mean the front office does something utterly stupid and we wonder “why didn’t they think this through?”
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
The front office does nothing but utterly stupid moves
How about some Fan Service amidst the misery?
So basically
make dumb moves in rage cause they always make dumb moves anyways.
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
Francona being on this team is counter to our purpose
of maintaining fan support and winning the World Series. He has lost any trust that anyone should have in his capabilities.
Largely, fan support is FOR Francona.
Go figure.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Or people are rational.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
So you want to replace Tito....
Who do you replace him with? It’s like getting rid of a dictator in the middle east. Even if you get rid of someone bad, you probably just get someone worse. Unless we are sure we will get someone better, why fire the guy who has gotten the job done before?
And here's what effing terrifies me.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not say don't fire him because you're afraid of someone worse
Because I don’t think Tito was “an evil dictator” … he did a pretty freaking good job over his years in Boston. And that is exactly my point. Why get rid of someone unless you are sure you will find someone as good? Do you really want to get rid of Tito and then look back next year and think “geez that was stupid”?
Again, though, this could just be Terry bowing out.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that is a valid concern
But I still think he deserves another year to prove it.
Of course it could all be academic. He may just want out. And I’m not sure I could blame him.
Someone who has Francona's good sides:
not getting flustered, being a player’s manager, able to handle different attitudes. Also someone with basic pattern recognition skills.
I just don't understand that decision making process
Here’s what it seems like to me. In my book:
2004 WS = +10
2007 WS = +8
Post Season appearances = +5
Sept. 2011 = -8
Total = +15
In your book however
2004 WS = 0
2007 WS = 0
Post season appearances = 0
Sept. 2011 = -10^138
Total = divide by 0
Terry Francona was the best manager in Red Sox history
because the average Red Sox manager apparently needed help getting dressed each morning.
Managers are there to not lose games. Francona lost us a lot of games. They are also there to stop cascading nightmares like the one we just witnessed. He did nothing.
All mangers lose a lot of games.
Follow more than one team, you’ll see.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
How many have won the World Series?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
We've become complacent with him.
It’s just time for a change Rogue.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Wait hold on
We talking about Theo or Tito?
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
Either way
Theo makes tons of mistakes because he has money, and due to said money, puts together a competitive team. Francona just has to not single-handedly cost said moneybags too many games.
How many helped lead the greatest comeback in playoff history?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
And what did he do to aid that?
Please, tell me the genius that Francona exhibited. And, for that matter, compare what he DID do right in that series versus what he did wrong this past month.
What did he do to cause this?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Could be wrong
manager is there to manage, right? That’s, like, the vast majority of his job title. So when 80% of your team is suddenly incompetent, aren’t you the one on the hook?
When so many players crap out
It’s more on the players than on the manager. If a couple of players suck and the manager trots them out anyways, that’s on the manager.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
It's partly on the manager
to kick their asses back into shape instead of taking them aside and telling them how proud he is of them and that everything will be okay.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions
We are in agreement
I said it’s “more on” the players. The manager isn’t in the clear, but it’s not mainly his fault, either.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Per Speier and Ede
Tito tried a number of approaches and apparently major reason he is (considering) stepping down is that he couldn’t seem to get a response and a lot of guys on this team just didn’t come together. Again, the players deserve the lion’s share of the blame here. They’re pro ballplayers. They shouldn’t have to get their ass kicked that often when they playoffs are on the line.
Sure, its on Francona he didn’t get them going… but its much more troubling what this says about some of these players… and combined with the drinking and lack of conditioning? I’d give away a lot of these guys rather than let them get away with this stuff. This is how a culture of losing develops. Some of these players need to go.
So we won't give him the credit for '04
but all the blame in ‘11? And not the players? Sounds like you’ve wanted him out for a while.
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
All the same..
I’d give Francona one more year, if he can’t even make the playoffs next year, then that’s it.
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
After getting bounced in '09
and then not making it two years in a row, I’m pretty satisfied with letting him walk out graciously now.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:43 AM EDT up reply actions
The comeback happened after a players only meeting
Tito wasn’t there.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions
And noone on this team gave a shit enought to hold a player's meeting apparently
So while I don’t give him total credit for them coming back in the ol days, I can’t fault him for not having those leaders. Papi, Tek, Wake…those guys were there. They knew what had to happen then and saw what it did and apparently never tried to do it this year. But those three guys are heroes and noone will criticize their leadership only when they slump on the field. And to preempt whoever will say, “Well Tek and Wake just didn’t play enough”, that is a BS excuse because they are in the clubhouse and traveling with the team just like everyone else.
Tito has alot of share of the blame, but if there was not team meeting held by those three guys, then that is on them and Pedroia and Youk and Beckett and Lester and Paps and the guys who have been there. Any of those guys could have sacked up and told each other to stop with the cliques and f’ing around but noone did.
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Which may be partially Tito
If he didn’t bring those guys aside and say, “I need you to help me get through to these guys.”
That I don’t think we’ll ever find out. I don’t see Tito as being the type of guy who says, "I pulled a couple of the ‘04 veterans aside and asked them to help but they couldn’t get through either.
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I've been following the Tigers all year
Leyland lost probably half the games Bogar/Tito lost this year.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions
He doesn't always make good lineup decisions
but the teams only decent 2B was traded to Oakland, so he didn’t have much choice there.
I really admire Leyland as a person and a manager, he’s a great guy.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I admire him as a manager for a number of reasons
but frankly, I don’t think he should even be mentioned in the same breath as Terry Francona.
I disagree, I think Leyland is a better manager than Francona
the fact that he’s been in the league as long as he has is a testament to that. Francona was given talent that Leyland could have won more than two WS with.
And I’m almost certain we’d be playing in October with Leyland, not Francona at the helm.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:32 AM EDT up reply actions
tbf, he would have kicked some asses on this team.
Not sure if it would be enough with all the injuries and the lack of execution by players.
All he'd need is two more wins than Tito
and between April and September, I think he could have managed it.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Ryne Sandberg?
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions
What is anyone's opinion of Ryne Sandberg?
This might just be me wanting to post a big “FUCK YOU” to the Cubs, but he’s stated he wants to manage and has experience in the Cubs and Phillies AAA systems.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
Would be interesting.
Have you heard any discussion on his rep as a manager? Small-ball guy? Hard ass or Laid back, etc?
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I think he's good with the younger guys
which is why the Cubs were considering him for their new manager, and the Phillies have him in AAA
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
An honest question to people who don't want Francona fired:
What would you have the org do? Ignore the fact that he managed the (i’ll type it again!) greatest regular season collapse in sports history? Hold a press conference where they throw their full support behind him, making it seem like they’re just lazy? Ignore it?
I'd be shocked
if they had the honor of being lazy simply by having Francona stay. I’m sure some drama is going on as we speak, whether he stays or not.
I’ll say it again: I want the organization to make moves that will make us better. Get pitching that will actually stay healthy. Get that right-handed OF that can fill in Drew’s emotionless shoes, even if that means getting Reddick in gear. GET Salty in gear. Re-sign Paps. Even see if we can keep Papi.
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
I disagree completely on bringing back players
Every single person on our roster is Tainted. Our goal should be to remove as many of The Tainted as possible.
What the fuck
You sound like a deranged Cubs fans after 2003. You wanna cook all the baseballs involved in this tainted-ness in spaghetti sauce, too?
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
I want to get rid of the players who, for whatever reason,
were involved in the greatest collapse in regular season sports history.
And most of us think you're borderline irrational
by LAEagle on Sep 30, 2011 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Borderline?
Maybe the borderline between completely irrational and batshit insane.
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Sep 30, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
David St. Hubbins: It’s such a fine line between stupid, and uh…
Nigel Tufnel: Clever.
David St. Hubbins: Yeah, and clever.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Sep 30, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Who?
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
Shit, if we could Tabula Rasa, I'd do that
specifically, Ortiz, Papelbon, Drew, Varitek and Wakefield as we don’t owe them money (or very little).
Hmm
Ortiz – This discussion will probably go on for a while, so I’ll put him on the shelf for now.
Drew – I already said we need a right-handed OF to replace him, so ok.
Varitek – Same thing, replace generic player description with Salty.
Wakefield – I already said get starting pitching that would stay healthy.
Papelbon – You realize he only blew THREE saves this season, right? Mr. Rivera, in comparison, blew five. Even it means Papi goes, Papelbon should stay.
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
I really hope that last night made him affordable.
I do want him back. But I do think his demands are going to make me pray he’s gone.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions
has there been talk on who might chase him
That would spend that money on a closer? I’m sure there would be teams, just curious if there had been any talk on it.
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions
"Most need him"?
Then fucking toss Bard, too.
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
And Lester, and Beckett--
Oh, wait, no, shouldn’t mention the second one to Sean.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Everyone forgets
that Beckett is only good odd-years. He’ll be back to a 5 ERA next season, so we’ll have Lackey, Crawford and Beckett being utterly useless.
Not to mention half the bullpen
Youkilis for half the year, and whichever pitcher decides to get a season ending surgery this year.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't want to wish injury
But if that was inevitable and it HAD to happen, I think I know who everyone would want the SP that we lose for the season to be.
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Suggested edit:
I think I know who everyone would want the SP that we lose forthe seasonever to be.
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Sep 30, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Bard is young and was mismanaged by our former manager
He is also still on the payroll. And he also wasn’t the Final Solution in the pen.
mismanaged?
Really? Nah, no excuses right? Francona must go, everyone must go, now turns into “well Bard wasn’t cuddled properly at his old team and we got damaged goods”
Nuh uh. He gets a piece of the pie, too.
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
Bard was left to rot when he sucked
A competent manager would have had our highly-effective, highly-paid closer warming behind him when the bases were loaded with no outs.
Saves are about as useful a stat as wins or RBIs
He gave up runs in the 9th inning, that’s no different than in the 7th or 8th. Just different timing.
I don’t necessarily disagree with your overall point, I’m just looking at something other than blown saves.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions
So you're saying you'd get rid of Pedroia and Ellsbury, too?
And Buchholz, who was on the DL when the train wreck happened?
And Gonzo? And Aceves?
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Then stop trying to tar with such a wide brush
You just make everything look sloppy—including your own arguments.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Thanks for that, by the way.
But when you say “Everyone is tainted,” then you’re throwing people under the bus that don’t deserve it.
When you say “Tabula rasa,” then you’re saying to get rid of people who don’t deserve that fate.
It’s harder to take that argument seriously than saying “Get rid of X, Y, and Z.”
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
But that's what it sounded like you wanted
That’s what I meant by making the argument look unhinged. If you just say, “Get rid of all of the free agents,” that’s a supportable, defendable argument. But that’s not what it looks like, and that’s when people’s hackles get raised.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
thus the remainder of the thread
I’d be ok with Tabula Rasa, because something happened to this team in September. With the exception of Ellsbury, Pedroia and Aceves, they all tanked en masse, and thus I cannot ever really trust them again.
You're right
My bad. You’re talking about blowing up the team.
You’re a Florida Marlins fan. : )
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
by Tai on Sep 30, 2011 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Fuck Chicago
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions
That was good.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Shit, reply fail. That should be to Tai.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions
It was still good.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Sean, honest question here, I'm not trying to trick you or argue with you
Ryne Sandberg: Yes or no?
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the main difference in viewpoint is like this:
You see Tito steering a ship clear into a cliff side, while playing Tetris on his iPod. I see Tito steering a broken tattered ship as close to shore as possible and missing because of a number of uncontrollable circumstances.
I’m not sure who is right to be honest, because I’m not there behind the scenes. But the information we have so far seems to give the latter view more credit.
Because Tito kept playing him.
When there was a better pitcher in the bullpen.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions
If you say Aceves....
Omg NO NO NO NO NO NO. Where is our bullpen without him?
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
Literally anyone else
as Lackey is the worst pitcher in our history, literally anybody we could have found would’ve been better.
Well, I can't totally argue with that
But I still don’t think that is grounds for divorce. But to be honest we don’t know for sure that Aceves would have been that much better as a starter. Wakefield sucked it up too.
no no, don't want Aceves
Anyone else. Any AAAA scrub we could find. All AAAA scrubs we could find: keep trying them until someone gets under a 6 ERA.
Uhm, why is the bullpen more important than the starting rotation again?
Please, explain. Also, it’s far easier to pick up bullpen pieces in August than it is starters.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Aceves wasn't particularly good as a starter.
It really did seem to bring the wild out in him. More so than usual.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions
He was still better than Lackey.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but I think it's a poor utilization of him.
My response would be that Voltron 2.0 (Weiland + Doubront + Tazawa) could’ve been effective while only sacrificing the mop-up battery.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions
That would have worked too
anything but Lackey.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions
But the problem was pitching depth
Again out of Tito’s control. Seems Theo should take the anger more than Tito in my mind.
As much as he is on his phone, he might actually BE playing Tetris.
Who would you pick up to replace him
Just curious, I’d like a name.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions
The man with all the answers
And yet none of them at the same time.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Sometimes this is all you need
If the choice is presented to you for a hammer to bash your head in, or to do something else, all you need to know right now is the anti-hammer solution. You can figure out what else to do later.
Can we get Tampa Bay's entire front office?
Merge the scouting.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I think a large paying fanbase would cure them of that.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions
He's going to Chicago
Fuck Chicago.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions
That may end up being my new farewell
I greet you with a Crawford Sucks, and leave with a Fuck Chicago.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I blame the players, not Francona
Jon Lester pitched poorly down the stretch of the “greatest regular season collapse in sports history.” Does that mean HE has to go, too?
You heard Sean O
Everyone must go. Then we need to exorcise Fenway of the infinite sins that the 2011 team has laid upon it.
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
Sean has made it clear that he only wants to dump the FAs
He’s said it several times. Stop misquoting him.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Well my bad
When you say “Tabula Rosa”, I assume that means everyone. It’s quite clear I’m not the only one having a hard time keeping up with what you supposedly really mean, either.
If you really mean just Crawford and Lackey, then I’m fine with that…if they suck next year.
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
I would consider Tabula Rasa
Which, side note, will not happen. As such, my actual solution, which I’ve typed out about a half dozen times.
Fire Bogar by the end of the day.
Seriously.
It may not seem like a lot, but has there every been a 3rd base coach as useless and reviled? You fire his incompetent ass, and people start saying, “Yeah. Thank God. That guy was a dumbass.” And now you have people on your side and it gives you time to better analyze the Tito Situation.
I need to know more about this “drinking in the clubhouse/bullpen” shit and whatever the deal with the buses is before I start making firm decisions (in my mind) about Francona.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Yes.
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
by Tessie's Dad on Sep 30, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
GordonEdes:
“And several times this last week, I asked Tito if John Henry, owners had called, texted, during tough stretch. No was always the answer.’
We are in deep shit, fellows.
Why?
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't buy any of this Liverpool shit
But all along I was hoping the ownership would come down on one side of the September issue. Doing nothing is not a good sign.
I'm 95% sure that Gordon's tweet was making the point that
Francona and co. were covering up any dissension in the ranks. It came right after he tried to make Gammons look like a genius for guessing there could be a disconnect when everyone’s criticism was the lack of actual reporting.
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by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My god, I have massively misjudged the sentiment of Sox fans
Who are the dumbest mofos in professional sports. Everyone seems to believe Francona is blameless. It is astonishing.
Thanks Sean, I feel the love.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think Tito is blameless
But I also think there’s a big divide between saying Tito is blameless, and rationally believing that he’s not the only culprit, and the stupidest thing you can do is make decisions on an emotional basis.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
I don't think this is an emotional decision
I think this was probably decided upon mid-collapse, and wasn’t acted on until we actually missed the playoffs.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Everyone made mistakes here
but there are plenty of guys on this team who deserve far greater portions of the blame than Tito does. He can’t pitch for the players. He tried pulling every string… too many injuries and too many guys who played like absolute crap.
Aceves would have approached similarly bad numbers if in the starting rotation with those peripherals.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
As a starter?
He certainly could have been.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Are these literally our only options?
Did nobody else in baseball have the capability of throwing once we knew Lackey was trash?
IE, Last year?
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Last year for me ended with only optimism for Lackey
He had a strong second half.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
So what do we do with him now?
He’s had 1/2 season where he was even mediocre. When do we show his ugly mug the door?
How long do I have to wait on Crawford for that matter?
Daniel Nava and Luis Exposito, that’s all it would have taken to replace that headache with someone worth playing in the outfield on a regular basis.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Can't release him.
Too much money invested to just let someone go because they started to suck for no reason. Unless it’s a physical problem there is a chance it will work itself out. There is no real risk in keeping him and hoping for that. If the offense is remotely as good as this year’s they can carry him (which is largely why I think we kept pitching him). A W-L record usually isn’t telling, but a pitcher with THAT ERA and THAT .500 record tells me that the offense can handle having him on the mound.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
We let Lugo and Renteria go for sucking for no reason.
Why is Crawford different? Are we not going to field a competitive team because our payroll is 150 instead of 170?
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Crawford or Lackey
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Crawford's still signed for six more years
Lugo and Renteria weren’t as long-term at their release points (1.5 for Lugo, 3 for Renteria.)
And the financial hook for Renteria was only $8M for three years.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Lugo and Renteria were bad signings at the time
Renteria was bad when we signed him and had been up and down his whole career. Lugo was never a very good player, he was very mediocre. Both of their downfalls wasn’t terribly hard to predict.
Lackey was for several years leading up to his signing, in the upper tiers of pitching. Crawford except for his injury in 2008 was an above average offensive player for a long time. You know I don’t agree with that signing, but at least on the offensive side, it was a good signing.
The difference is that at the time of the deal, Lugo and Renteria could easily have been foreseen as bad signings. Lackey and Crawford, not nearly as bad. Crawford certainly would see a decrease in his defensive value, but his offensive too, that big?
Plus, Lackey and Crawford’s hooks are MUCH bigger. Both Lugo and Renteria combined would make less than Lackey over his deal.
The cases really aren’t particularly comparable.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
If we can get rid of them and still field a competitive team
then we should. I’m willing to give Crawford one more year on a short leash, but if he shits the bed again I’m fine with him being a 21 million dollar pinch runner or the 4th outfielder for the Mariners.
Lackey needs to be gone, period. He’s pitched poorly and been a total dick ever since he got here. I don’t care that his wife has breast cancer, he divorced her. Unless he comes out with a 2007 Beckett-in-October style April I want him gone.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 3:02 AM EDT up reply actions
He has accepted blame, he has gone through an incredibly tumultuous season personally, cancer and a divorce? By all accounts the clubhouse has been fully behind him with support. You may not like him personally, but decisions can’t be made based off of that. If he was one of the said pitchers drinking in the clubhouse, that is a bigger issue than anything else with him.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
A bit like JD Drew's first year in Boston
Sick kid who spent most of the year in a full-body cast. Hard to be a good baseball player when most of your time and energy is spent on your family.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Lugo and Renteria combined
Equals one year of Crawford.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
We went through about 10 different options. Eventually we just have to deal with it.
The offense was clearly enough to support him.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Miller, Bedard, Aceves, Wakefield, Doubront, Tazawa, Harden, unknown end of year pitcher
Those were all the replacement options.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Wakefield was better than Lackey.
Miller was in our rotation at that point, and already a question mark. Bedard was there to replace Buchholz. Aceves was better than Lackey, just had better uses elsewhere. Doubront and Tazawa didn’t start a game. We wimped out on Harden.
We tried nothing, and were all out of ideas.
Harden, of course, pitched like the Red Sox the last month of the year
so I wouldn’t feel too upset about that one.
Miller, Wake, Doubront, Dice K, Bucholz, Bedard
Aceves got 4 starts but they didn’t want to mess with him and in the process make the pen as big a problem. They tried to get Harden. Millwood’s stuff and velo wasn’t good enough. Same for Duckworth. Tazawa didn’t get back from rehab/get stretched out in time to help.
I'm not sure what that means.
We were so short on pitchers in September we had to pitch Plan J: Kyle Weiland, on 3 days rest. That’s just no way on Tito. You can blame Theo (and I know you do), but I don’t know how many backup pitching options the guy is supposed to stockpile. Some guys got hurt. Others sucked. No strings left to pull for the manager at that point.
There is no single scapegoat here
Baseball Ops needed to right the ship. They did not. Thus the primary decisionmakers need to go.
If a choice were given, I would get rid of Theo before Tito. But I feel Tito has overstayed his welcome. And I also have the ability to see that managing a baseball team for 8 years is an extraordinarily long time.
The least two problems with this team are manager & baseball ops in my opinion
I’d get rid of everyone else first. I’d literally prefer trading half the roster away before losing Theo or Tito. Rather have the continuity of good management and leadership over some of the losers who are now on the roster.
by alskor on Sep 30, 2011 2:30 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
The least is CF.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Sep 30, 2011 2:30 AM EDT up reply actions
When things go south in September, what levers does Baseball Ops have?
There’s not a lot they can do to change the roster in September.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
They traded for Bedard and attempted to trade for Harden
Should they have traded for 4 backup starters?
They actually went out and got a great backup 3B option in Aviles which worked out great once Youk got hurt.
Did we know Lackey had a 6 ERA?
That Wakefield was 46 years old? That Andrew Miller couldn’t hit the monster from the warning track?
They went out and got a SP who worked pretty well in Bedard.
Who should they have traded for? Was there anything else out there that was obviously better than hoping one of those in house options gets straightened out or Doubront comes back healthy? I sure didn’t see one – and IF there was one the price was exorbitant.
There are roughly 2-3 dozen starting pitchers hitting FA
Almost by default, they are better than John Lackey.
Hell, I spent the first week of August openly warning everyone about the regression we were due following July.
Yes, he's been a disappointment...
We’ve been over the reasons for signing him before. It hasn’t worked out, but that was a decision made 2 years ago. How does that affect the deadline? They’re starting Weiland on 3 days rest… so they should have jettisoned Lackey and create another need? You’d kill them for that, too.
Please tell me where I say jettison Lackey
I was saying try any other option back in July, when it was obviously a problem.
and again, I ask, should we have traded for 3-4 starting pitchers?
We traded for Bedard. We already needed 2 starters. The solution was to create a need for a 3rd SP? Plus, there were no good SP options available. Should we empty the farm system to get 3 SPs?
In honesty
Theo should’ve gotten on the trade phone as soon as Dice-K, Buch, and Doubront got hurt. I know Miller’s contract stipulated that he needed to be brought up to the MLB by a certain date or he could opt out, or something like that but he shouldn’t have been thrust into a SP role.
And the reason I say he should’ve done that is because when the fanbase was outwardly laughing at the Yankees SP situation in February, he came out and tempered our expectations or tried to. He said specifically that he didn’t have enough SP because most teams go through 10 or 11 options throughout a year. And he had the starting five (Beckett, Lester, Buch, Lackey, Dice) and then Wake, Doubront and Aceves.
Dice-K, Buch and Doubront were hurt earlier in the season. And when Rich Hill blew out his elbow, and Jenks/Wheeler struggled and were put on the DL it took Aceves out of that list. At that point he should’ve been on the line trying to get 2-3 back-up starters, absolutely. Not throwing Miller in the rotation and having Wake throw 150+ innings.
They should’ve gone out sooner and taken a look at guys sooner. Not as many are available as there are at the deadline, but he should have at the very least gone out and gotten SOMEONE sooner.
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions
The price for starting pitching is always crazy.
We gave up a lot to get Bedard and wanted to do the Harden deal in combination with that. They recognized the need… the arms weren’t available.
Did you have a clue in late July?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
How do you see a September collapse coming in late July?
And what are they supposed to do about it? (I mean this question seriously.)
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Ding Ding Ding
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
And let's not forget that they were trying to make moves right up to the end.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
So, you're blaming them for not doing enough early on
And for not getting anything done when the rules of baseball make it hard to get stuff done, but they’re trying anyways?
It’s a no-win situation, then. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
I'm actually disappointed in them
For not doing anything in July, when the rules of baseball make it easy to make trades.
8 years a long time? This guy is laughing
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
My grandmother, obviously.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Isn't your grandmother a Cubs fan?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Not the one who knows how to play cribbage.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
From twitter:
“If the Red Sox ditch Francona then they don’t deserve to have any success for the next 100 yrs. Tito is one of the best coaches in MLB.”
My god, these people get to vote.
“Any #redsox fan who wants Tito gone please go jump off and bridge because you are clueless and this fanbase doesn’t need you”
Well Sean, you ready to go bridge jumping?
Clearly the red sox fanbase doesn’t need us.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions
If we have a fanbase that places the feelings of their manager
over that of their club, then perhaps.
If Tito were still here next year and we failed again
I might have become a Tigers fan. It’d just be too much.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:28 AM EDT up reply actions
"jump off and bridge"
bridge what. O_o
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
Lol i'm kidding
but seriously, these twitter whores need to calm down.
I learned how to make a sig just so it can say "DFA Darnell MacDonald". That means it must happen.
Fuck Chicago.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Good luck, brother.
Try to, um, do some yoga or something before then so you don’t seem like the Incredible Hulk in there.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Anyone else hear Lester/Lackey/Beckett
have formed some sort of little man woman club and occasionally include Tek, creating a nightmare for tito?
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Man woman club?
What the?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
they are like a collective group
a problem in the clubhouse
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I thought you meant, like, some sorta sex ring or something.
But you are talking like more of a cliq, right?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Love the signature, by the way.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
sad to see Tito go
At times this month thought he should be fired, but in the end it was not his fault.
Lots of players in the Red Sox clubhouse are going to be upset over this.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
In the end, whether Tito should be fired should be based on whether he lost the clubhouse.
I don’t know if he did. I imagine stuff will be coming out in the next few days about all that crap.
I'm sure the clubhouse liked him
If he had a clubhouse problem, I don’t think it was with players not liking him, so much as it was with him being everyone’s buddy instead of manager.
Though I imagine we’ll see a whole bunch of that video of pissed-off Ortiz busting into a news conference in the coming weeks…
Yeah, I should be more clear
It’s not so much that he “lost the clubhouse” like they all hated him, it’s that he “lost the clubhouse” because they didn’t take him seriously or listen to him.
No way, he's ours!
Jays fan here (I guess that’s obvious by now, though). Did you guys miss Farrell this year? I’m kind of a lapsed baseball fan (lost interest in the game after the strike and only came back to it in the middle of 2010), so I don’t know how well he was liked in Boston. Would any of the pitching woes the Sox experienced this year have been alleviated somewhat if he were still with the team?
I think I probably speak for a lot of Jays fans when I say that the Red Sox pretty much scared the crap out of me this year – when they were on, they were frighteningly good; there was one series in the middle of the summer where they pounded the Jays so badly that we refuse to even speak about that series over at BBB. I know this month has been an incredibly tough break for you guys, but I’m sure it won’t take much for the Sox to get back on their feet next year and start pounding other teams into oblivion again. I’m looking forward to the day when the Jays are able to challenge the Sox for the wild card, or even the division title – it will be entertaining, that’s for sure!
The man in the white shirt.
in general, people liked him
he was pretty universally praised before 2010, then with some pitching problems in 2010, a lot of people wanted him to be fired. Probably the problems weren’t his fault and probably the pitching in september still would’ve been bad with him here. I like what I’ve seen of him a lot, personally.
It is just like Grady Little
(For most people, I was the furtherest from a Francona fan so I obviously felt differently)
There were few rumblings about him getting fired before the 2003 playoffs, then he makes a huge mistake and is canned.
My Twitter @totheights
Please take him back
Sad, Drunk, And Poorly
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. - JL
Now....on to getting rid of John Lackey
Seems most of our problems start when that asshole joined the team.
My Twitter @totheights
never going to happen
That contract is an albatross. No one will take him and there’s no way the Sox would cut him and continue to pay him while someone else gets any production he can deliver for free. Stuck with him for three more years.
apparently he's gone. officially.
If you look at Tito 8 years ago and Tito now, it’s shocking how much he’s wasted away physically from the job. But I’m not happy about this.
by Sologub on Sep 30, 2011 10:25 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
This sucks
I, too, am not happy.
I guess being the Sox manager is comparable to being POTUS. They all look so healthy and full of vigor going in but after a term (or two) they end up looking awful.
"Play Hard Always"
forget the ESPN mag curse
It is the MassGal avi curse. First Manny, now Tito.
Epstein is in the avi picture as well, he better start packing.
"Play Hard Always"
I can not wait for the book(s) to hit the stands
It’s just a matter of time. Too catastrophic to be happenstance. As my father used to tell me about the Sox of old ( Jim Rice’s group) – nine players, nine different cabs.
I think some took this season and their potential for granted and others were not ready for prime time.
"Play Hard Always"
I would say..
..the pinnacle* of the Tito era was either Lester’s No-hitter, or Drew’s ASG MVP. After that it was a slow decline, then WHAM.
I’ve never really felt this team was the same after the O’s had their own miracle come-back a couple of years ago.
*By the that I mean the last time it felt like these guys could do no wrong.
If Tito let drinking go on in the club house on game days, in my opinion that's a problem.
According to multiple sources, more than one pitcher drank beer in the clubhouse during games on the days he didn’t pitch.
Was I the only one who was annoyed by this?
It sounds to me like the Lester, Beckett, Lackey clique at work and it’s a problem. If they have that little respect for their manager and their team that their kicking back beers during a game day, it’s a discipline problem. At that point Tito is no longer an authority figure and simply their buddy or ignored.
Kind of hard to condition players and keep players in peek shape when they are pounding beers on game days. It could explain why Lester suddenly started pitching like shit and Becketts off games. Not to mention Lackey’s decline from a great/good/decent pitcher to the worst pitcher ever.
Fuck Carl Crawford
and also,
drinking in the clubhouse during a game shouldn’t be allowed, but you seem to be taking that as “they are each pounding a 30 rack and getting wasted every day they aren’t pitching” which is not what this says. If they’re hanging out and drinking a beer, that’s not going to cause serious conditioning problems
Have you seen Lackey and Beckett before, they aren't examples of peek physical conditioning.
Also, the clique I’m referring to is from club house interviews with Beckett, Lackey. He talks about how the starting pitchers all listen to the same type of country music, all drink the same type of beer, ect.
Fuck Carl Crawford
right but you're taking way too much out of a sentence there
and making some assumptions with very little information to go on.
Obviously this is just speculation, when it comes to clubhouse matters, speculation is as close as we normally get to know what really goes on.
However, I do take issue with players drinking in the club house during days they don’t pitch. I think it calls into question their respect for the rest of the team.
I also believe drinking in the club house, again because of attitude, can show a lack of caring for conditioning/too laid back. A would assume their not drinking during the game itself. So they would have to be drinking in the afternoons before games or after workouts? I’m sorry, but as a former athlete and someone who works out a lot, drinking isn’t a great way to stay in shape. Who drinks beer after you work out? lol
Fuck Carl Crawford
If this is fact
and I’ve yet to see a link to any actual evidence, then this is absolutely an issue and absolutely disrespectful to the manager and the team.
I love beer. I don’t drink it at work. Because I care about my job.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Exactly, if this isn't true and just speculation, obviously it's not an issue.
But drinking at work, kind of a no no. lol
Fuck Carl Crawford
yeah I agree (there are multiple sources saying that I guess, so I believe it)
and I can understand- baseball is pretty much a 24/7 thing, unlike most jobs. I have no problem if they want to relax and have a beer after the game or whatever, but it really shouldn’t be happening during or before.
I have no empirical evidence
But here
I guess I just have Tomase citing multiple sources. He’s certainly not one of my favorite writers, so maybe not as definite as I’d thought.
Tomase
Paragon of well-sourced and correct sports journalism
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Sep 30, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Fuck!
Again with the screwed up sarcasm tags.
I think the September Collapse has affected some of my cognitive functions (such as they are)
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Sep 30, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
personally, there's nothing i love more than a beer after working out!
though I’m not a pro athlete.
I like a beer after just about everything, frankly.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
...and before... and during...
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I still remember
When Millar talked about how they would sip whiskey before games as a ritual in the playoffs. They just took sips apparently from the same cup (because they are a team) and it was only a small shot of it. Of course, Damon said it never happened so you never know if it is true.
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I doubt you are the only one bothered by this, if this is true
I commented earlier in the season about Beckett ( and recently) and was poo-pooed.
I still doubt the great teammate comments about Lackey even after I saw Theo & Tito’s press conference.
It all just seems to be a lack of fundamentals and discipline. One bad apple can indeed set the tone but am sure there were many more issues.
I am not a Maddon fan at all but this is because he coaches the Rays. I do like the stories about what he requires from his players including when they travel. You can not force socialization & babysit grown men but some training reinforces team spirit.
"Play Hard Always"
this is frustrating.
First of all, thanks to Tito for everything he did. He brought us the long sought title twice.
Frankly, if you are one of the people who is happy about this right now, you are an idiot. I just hope we can find a suitable replacement, though I highly doubt we will.
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
by BigBenSportsGuy on Sep 30, 2011 10:59 AM EDT reply actions
ah yes
For all the shit I take from the fans around here, I don’t personally attack Sox fans. Guess I’m just not that optimistic.
anyone who is happy about francona
is an idiot. textbook knee-jerk reaction. if you take that as an “attack” so be it.
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
by BigBenSportsGuy on Sep 30, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
that's not necessarily true
there are plenty of people who didn’t like him and wanted him gone before this season. Calling everyone who wants him gone an idiot is a knee-jerk reaction.
Sean
name those you would like to see stay? Not being a “lil bitch” as you have referred to others but you seem so charged against some. Please put forth your plan.
"Play Hard Always"
players or coaches?
players: anyone we currently have under contract, plus Aceves.
Coaches:
(that’s the joke)
ill agree wtih this.
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
by BigBenSportsGuy on Sep 30, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm okay with Magadan sticking around
everyone else needs to go.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel even he has some blame in this.
The offense often seemed boom or bust to me. We scored a lot of runs, but if we didn’t score more than 10, it seemed we struggled to score 3. A lot more consistent hitting would help quite a bit.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
This is true
however, he’s had the best results by far of anyone on the staff.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
All good offenses are boom or bust
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Sep 30, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
We've still got Aceves, so that's the good news
I have no problem with Ron Johnson. He isn’t in a position I can see him failing and I find him whimsical.
so those technically not under contract since the Sox season is over
are they among those you want out?
"Play Hard Always"
His plan is basically
re-sign NOBODY (Aceves accepted). Rebuild from fresh.
I don’t necessarily agree with it, and yet…..
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
This coming from the guy who, just within this very thread, just wrote:
“For all the shit I take from the fans around here, I don’t personally attack Sox fans.”
it boggles my mind
how anyone could want him gone before the season started. people who wanted him gone before the season started are spoiled brats. what did they want him to do? win the world series every year? seriously….
I dont care when they started, but people who wanted Francona out are not the brightest bulb in the box.
Anyway, bad fans aside, let’s just hope that whoever we bring in can give us a spark and get us on the right track. Go Red Sox!
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
by BigBenSportsGuy on Sep 30, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
well that's a very results-oriented way of looking at it
but more of the complaints have been more process-oriented- i.e. the team wins a lot, but he doesn’t manage the bullpen well. Things like that. I’m not necessarily the best one to defend it as, despite the problems he had, I like Francona a lot.
Personally, I wouldn’t say I’m necessarily happy or unhappy to see him go, but I would say I’m curious. Sometimes a change of personality is just needed, whether someone is doing a good job or not.
i am going to stand and applaud you
for actually having something to say. Way too many “Francona is an idiot, I hate him, poo poo” around here. And thats the only reason I am optimistic now. Perhaps a fresh face can give us a boost. I just hate fans who would knee jerk and be happy about the firing of someone who brought them two world series.
There are some who think its WS or bust. And that is the worst kind of fan.
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
by BigBenSportsGuy on Sep 30, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
No, that's the fan who listens to the Red Sox org's BS
Do you think “we won’t rest” meant an ALDS sweep?
No
fickle supporters are the biggest problem. those who think we should win the series every year and make wholesale changes when we don’t are the problems. What is your solutuion? Who should we bringin?
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
by BigBenSportsGuy on Sep 30, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Fickle supporters? who?
And you honestly think this team, as constituted, makes october next year?
We can’t bring in anyone because we’re out of money.
by Sean O on Sep 30, 2011 11:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Sean
You and I may be out of money, but Theo & Co. can increase the payroll budget if they really really needed to. That’s my understanding.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Plus throwing money around is why we're here
by Sean O on Sep 30, 2011 11:57 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
YOU WANTED THEM TO DO THAT
I remember almost the direct quote around the time of the big additions this off season
“Finally Theo listens to me and goes out and gets stars instead of these average vanilla players like Scutaro.”
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Okay, I'll say it then
“Throwing money around is why we’re here.”
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I certainly agree that Crawford
Was throwing money where it didn’t need to be thrown. But I thought Lackey was an ‘eh’ signing largely because I didn’t think we needed another pitcher. We threw money at a problem we didn’t know we’d have yet and that was my problem with it. If he was even remotely close to where he was in LA it would be a very good signing, I’d stand by that one. Crawford less so.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Yeah...that does sound familiar.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
I'ts a paraphrase of course
But I remember that clearly.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Not Saying It's a Good Idea
But the budget can go up if needed. Throwing money at the problem doesn’t work, I agree, but just sayin’ that it’s possible Theo & Co. can increase it.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
I don't believe that we're out of money, really
There’s a lot coming off the payroll and not as much in raises as everyone seems to believe. I’ll go more in depth into this when I have more time
Yes
They were Buchholz away from doing it this year. They were Beckett and Bedard away from winning the division.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
well yeah, but,
after two years with a lot of injuries, relying on everyone being healthy is far from a sure bet
It shouldn't have been too hard to rely on Buchholz
This injury falls solidly under ‘freak’ to me.
If they return the same team next year, I feel we make the playoffs even with Tito as manager. This September I think was one of those one in a million worst case scenarios that won’t happen again.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Beckett is gone this year
Even year.
I am glad they threw money at gonzo. Throwing money at lackey was a bad idea when we had beckett.
I either want us to make the moves we did in 03, or get stars. It its unfortunate that Crawford was there to be our money sponge.
by Sean O on Sep 30, 2011 12:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Crawford...One More Year?
I’m thinking so. If he’s near his average next year, then the team has gotten what they’ve paid for (at least for that year).
Lackey…don’t get me started cause I’m with you on that, and that’s COMPLETELY on Theo & Co.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
It's ironic to personally attack all fans who don't share your support of Tito and at the same time say people who don't agree with you, "not the brightest bulbs". Agree with me or your dumb, that's an intelligent attitude. Talk about "knee jerk".
Lets start with the World Series.
How can your credit Tito with the World Series wins, but not fault him for one of the biggest collapse in baseball history?
You can’t have it both ways, if he personally won two World Series, than he also hasn’t made the playoffs in two years in a row and hasn’t won a post season series since 07.
In my opinion Tito didn’t make a huge different in winning the two World Series. He was handed a team that an idiot almost won with plus Curt Schilling and Keith Foulke closing. Any half way competent manager could have won with this team. Grady Little almost did it was a lesser team. So using that logic Tito isn’t really to thank for the World Series, but at the same time he didn’t play a major role in the collapse.
I don’t think managers have a major impact on the outcome of games outside of a few areas. In the areas that managers do affect the game, I find Tito to be lacking.
1: Starter/Bullpen Management – I find that Tito leaves his pitchers in too long. He doesn’t have a short enough leash on struggling starters. Will go to the wrong pitchers at the wrong time. His respect of vets, I believe clouds his better judgement sometimes and it hurts the team rather than the vets feelingst.
2: Team Discipline/Relations – We don’t get a huge look into this area, but Manny and Ellsbury’s injury year and players fighting each other (Manny/Youk) didn’t make a strong argument for Titos ability to handle his players.
3: Ability to light a fight under the players – You might cite the come back in 04, but if memory serves me that was a players only clubhouse meeting that set the ship right.
The 2011 team didn’t have those same clubhouse leaders and looked dead in September. A team with a great manager shouldn’t have to depend on players to do the managers job.
4: Conditioning – Proper Conditioning helps with injury prevention. Proper condition keeps a team from burning out before the end of the season. I think we can all agree that this team burned out before September. While injuries the last two years weren’t exactly all conditioning related, I think we can agree that a physically fit player/person has less of a chance of injury than one who is out of shape. I think Tito’s laid back attitude could lead to an atmosphere where conditioning and hard work are lacked. I think we saw the results on the field this September.
I had these issues with Tito before this season, this season has simply furthered illustrated the problems I had with him (in my mind).
Should we fire him – Hard to say, there aren’t that many better managers available out there.
Do I think he is a great manager – No, we might be able to do better.
Like I said, I don’t think a manager has a major impact on winning. However, in the areas a manager does have an impact on the outcome I don’t find Tito to be all that good.
To call people who don’t think he is an amazing manager because he, “won two world series” stupid is just silly.
.
Fuck Carl Crawford
I see we're on the same page.
Well said.
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
by Tessie's Dad on Sep 30, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, we can't be happy that Tito is gone
While being thankful for the 2 World Series we won while he was manager?
You know what is idiotic? Celebrating and making fun of others teams fans when the two games that matter aren’t even close to being over.
Being happy that the team is not accepting this collapse and doing things to rectify it, is not idiotic.
My Twitter @totheights
Talk about for want of a nail...
…Girardi let’s Mariano pitch 1 inning, Tito maybe still has a job
..Pap throws a splitter..
…Bard doesn’t blow just one of his games…
etc..etc..
I must say, the role the Orioles played in the season
is , well, kind of humorous, considering the Showalter comments.
"Play Hard Always"
Interesting article
http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/7036983/underachieving-boston-red-sox-flunked-chemistry
I have to wonder how secure Youk’s future with the club is.
Go Sox
I don't need to preface this with ' I am a huge Sox fan'
Some of this they had coming. I will miss Tito.
Paps? See ya.
Isn’t Ortiz a FA? If so, I would hope Ortiz stays.
Wake? Know when to say when.
"Play Hard Always"
sounds like a certain team from the mid-aughts
The way this team is described is what we used to hear about the Yankees for much of the last decade. They were corporate, cold, arrogant. People kept to themselves. They were mercenaries. Now it’s the Sox who fit this bill. Even the way folks are talking about Tito is reminiscent of Torre circa ‘07-’08. Feels like the winds of change are blowing. It’s difficult to blow-up a baseball team and start from scratch (as opposed to the NFL, where guaranteed contracts aren’t really guaranteed), but we may be about to witness something close.
by Bean Tooth on Sep 30, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good Point +1
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Player X on clubhouse chemistry, Aug ESPN Mag
“In a game against Tampa Bay a few weeks ago, Red Sox pitcher John Lackey got visibly frustrated by some mistakes his shortstop made. When I heard about it, I thought, “Man, that clubhouse is going to be a mess.” I mean, no team has ever had a 1.000 fielding percentage. Fielders are going to make errors in the same way pitchers are going to give up home runs. Our policy is that every single person on the field is going to work his ass off on every play. As long as guys are doing that, we should be content. If there needs to be some sort of release of frustration, it shouldn’t be done on the field. Lackey was in the wrong."
Apparently, the clubhouse was a mess. These players are well-paid adults who knew what needed to be done to win and didn’t do it.
"Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains."
Next time Lackey gives up a home run
(preferably in ST) I’d love it if the other eight Sox on the field threw their arms in the air and stalked around their positions for a while.
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
by Tessie's Dad on Sep 30, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I've wanted to trade Youk for about half the season.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Terry Francona, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Sep 30, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
be careful what you wish for
Rumor I heard is that Bobby Valentine might be Tito’s successor. If that’s the case, the Sox will miss the playoffs for the third year in a row. He is a moron.
It's popping up quite a bit.
Probably just a name being tossed about. Peter Abe has a blog post up right now with a bunch of names, Valentine among them. Of them, Tony Pena, now the Yanks bench coach, might be the best. He’s widely respected, has loads of experience, and witnessed Bartolo Colon’s resurgence this winter and convinced the Yanks to sign him.
Regarding Pena: He knows the importance of conditioning.
Pena was always in good shape if I remember right. Partially because he played winter ball every single year in the Dominican Republic when he was playing. But one of the best reasons (and I don’t know if he is like this as a coach) is that he is not afraid to give it to someone who is sucking, no matter who. And he knew how to get the best out of his pitchers.
Can’t remember what year it was, but he was catching Clemens one day and Roger was all over the place and couldn’t throw a strike to save his life. Joe Morgan called timeout and started to walk out. Pena told him to go back in the dugout and Tony walked out to the mound and ripped right into Roger right there. Yelling, pointing, etc. Roger went on to pitch an excellent game after that. But at the same time, there are plenty of times he would also be calm and encouraging. Always a smile on the guys face unless you don’t pay attention and half-ass it.
And, as a bonus he would be an excellent mentor to Salty and Lavarnway, as good a one as Tek. Also read a story where when he first came to the Yankees how he helped Posada in many ways and improved his technique on throwing runners out, something Tek probably could not do.
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Come to think of it, I think Tony would be a pretty good option
IF Tito decides to leave, which I still have mixed feelings on.
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
And there is also the story about Pena back in '95 when he was with the Indians
Quote:
“Once in ‘95 when the Tribe’s closer, Jose Mesa was struggling in a game against the Yankees, the squat Pena approached the mound and slapped the hulking reliever in the face with his glove, telling him to pay attention.”
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Now I would LOVE to see Tony Pena
If he couldn’t light a fire, then I don’t know who could.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
The biggest advantage
Is he is not afraid to go after big name guys. Mesa and Clemens were big intimidating guys and had tempers. Pena didn’t give two turds.
That and him as a mentor to our catchers would be really great. From what we know Lavarnway has a potential middle of the order bat, and Pena would probably be ecstatic to have a guy with his intelligence and eagerness to learn. Not sure how much work Pena does with Montero or Cervelli and how he has affected them.
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
And In Looking At It
That’s what this team needs. With stubborn hot heads like Beckett, Lackey, and to a degree Papelbon, you need that.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
would the Yanks let him go?
They’ve denied letting folks under contract interview elsewhere in the past, so it wouldn’t surprise me to see them say no to Pena and the Sox. He’s super popular in the clubhouse there.
Oh I'm absolutely sure they wouldn't as long as he's under contract
I have absolutely no concept of what his contract status is. IIRC, as it is usually a stepping stone to a mangerial position, a lot of bench coaches have a clause in their contract that they can choose to leave for a managerial position, but I’m not 100% sure about that.
There rumors of him leaving even last year at this time
First he was considered a candidate for the Marlins job but then they never ended up interviewing him. Couple other stories are out there about him being a possibility but they were last year.
I couldn’t find anything on this contract status.
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I so hope this can't possibly be true & is just a rumor, too soon to have vetted a replacement
this is just mean, downright cruel
"Play Hard Always"
Bobby V gets mentioned for every managerial vacancy
and has yet to get one. I don’t think there’s any real chance of that.
haaaa, let's keep it that way
Bobby V: ubiquitous managerial candidate since…forever
( sighs in relief)
"Play Hard Always"
God, no.
Please, please no.
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
by Tessie's Dad on Sep 30, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Then I Might As Well...
Hang myself. Who’s with me?
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
If there is one person who could make watching next year painful and frustrating
It would be Bobby Valentine. Lord, I hope that is not true.
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
We love his muppet-like voice
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Sep 30, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
He was a hero for Chiba Lotte
As manager. There were practically riots when he was booted.
by Sean O on Sep 30, 2011 11:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If you owned a team that had Josh Beckett under contract as its pitching ace,
would you hire Bobby Valentine to manage it? Let Bobby go to the Cubs and ride Castro’s butt. Let Terry go to the White Sox. Let’s look outside ESPN’s color analysts for the next Red Sox manager.
This seems to me a sound business decision by a shrewd businessman (Henry)
Theo Epstein has defended Francona because Francona is a good manager who is a fantastic fit for the Boston market. I agree with this. But the employees in the business are sorely suffering from complacency and underperformance, so the boss is going to bring in a new manager who has yet to prove himself in attempt to light a fire under the team. I agree with this. I am sorry to see Terry go because I like him a lot. But he is not the only man that can manage this team. I am eager to see what a new management team can do. I hope they go with young blood.
Oh Tito
Beyond some boneheaded decisions, looks like you lost control of the clubhouse if the rumors are true. If he’s gone, it sucks that he’s the one to go as I would say this whole collapse is a collective failure. Other coaches need to go and if Theo & Co. are willing to eat salary, so do some of the players.
Let’s put it this way, if the beer drinking rumors are true, then that’s parthetic. Yes this isn’t like a job you and I may go to; however, it’s a place of employment. If I broke out some rum punch with my lunch and then had a couple of beers later in the day, then I’d be begging for change on the street.
Guess an attitude change was needed and let’s hope the next manager can do that.
And my point about conditioning looks like it stands. 2011 Red Sox = lazy bums in the end is what I’m getting out of this.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Since so many folks seem so determined to credit Tito with two WS championships
isn’t it fair to look at his total history as Red Sox manager?:
2004: WS win
2005: ALDS loss (sweep)
2006: missed playoffs
2007: WS win
2008: ALCS loss (7 games)
2009: ALDS loss (sweep)
2010: missed playoffs
2011: missed playoffs
So with as much credit as he is due for the two WS wins, isn’t he also due blame for missing the playoffs and/or getting swept out in the first round? You can’t have it both ways. Yes, you can argue that 2006 & 2010 were the product of injuries, but the fact remains that in five out of eight seasons, Francona’s leadership has resulted in zero playoff wins.
I’m still not sure how I feel about him leaving; I don’t think that that will be sufficient to turn the team around, or even necessary, but I refuse to fall into the trap of believing that his two rings mean he can do no wrong. If he’s lost the clubhouse, lost the respect of the players, he needs to go.
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
Depends on the context you take it in.
I hardly remember 2005.
2006 is another injury year with a bad bullpen and mediocre starting pitching.
2009 I would say was a fine piece of managing work. Getting to the playoffs with that rotation and bullpen was unlikely and he pulled it off.
2010 I can’t hold against Tito for, when you lose that many players for that long there is nothing he could have done.
2011 was partially injuries, if we had Buchholz we don’t even have this conversation because somewhere between late July and now he would have won an extra game or two for us over Weiland, Miller or Wakefield. Some of it can surely be pinned on him though.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Of course injuries play a role,
but then, don’t non-injuries? Isn’t part of a manager’s job to – y’know – manage the players so their bodies don’t break down? Also to oversee their conditioning? What we saw this year were a lot of attrition-type injuries, not Beltre-itis or broken bones. Just as one dismisses 2006 & 2010 as bad luck, why can’t we dismiss 2004 & 2007 as good luck?
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
by Tessie's Dad on Sep 30, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure
And then we can just admit that it doesn’t matter who manages it should be up to the fans to vote.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
What I'm getting at is that a lot of luck is necessary to win.
Managers don’t make luck, but they do set the conditions under which luck can occur. Tito has done that; it’s just a question of whether the luck was good or bad.
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
by Tessie's Dad on Sep 30, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
pardon my ignorance (not trying to troll) but do you mean by attrition-type injuries?
To me, and honestly a lot of people the biggest or most hurtful injuries this year were to Buchholz who had a stress fracture in his back, Youk with a sports hernia/bursitis, Dice-K with a blown out elbow, and Jenks who had to have (or maybe is due to have) spinal surgery and then found out he had a pulmonary embolism.
Not exactly pulled hamstrings but I’m not sure how those would be due to conditioning?
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
And Jedi and Gonzo both had pinched nerves right?
I think Bedard, Beckett and the bullpen wear down are more or less the injuries being referred to.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Attrition to me, and in this context, means wear-and-tear.
So Matsuzaka’s arm, Gonzo’s neck/shoulder, Youk’s and Papi’s bursitis, Drew’s lingering Drew-ness, Scutaro’s dead arm, Varitek and Wakefield’s outright decrepitude, etc. These are the types of things I mean, not acute injuries like Pedroia shattering his foot with a foul ball, or Beltre shattering assorted teammates.
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
by Tessie's Dad on Sep 30, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
ok thanks for clarification
again, I’m not a doctor and I don’t play one on tv so I have no idea on these injuries and common causes. So I’m not disagreeing with your point on it being conditioning related, I just have no idea on them (hence my question mark at the end)
Just wanted to clarify what the term meant.
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
what I'm going to say is a very simplistic, way of looking at this
and I can’t say it’s absolutely the case for Buchholz, but my understanding is that the main causes of stress fractures are not stretching enough and poor posture, both of which weaken the muscles so that they can’t protect the bones around as they should.
Jenks has been on the DL for a variety of reasons. I don’t know this, but yes, I think there is a very good chance that the reason he’s having back problems is poor conditioning.
Great points
And as I said above, I’m not trying to disagree or say conditioning isn’t an issue because it obviously was. Just wanted to read thoughts on how they might have been related. As usual you and Tessie’s Dad made a lot of sense, so thanks!
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Any other excuses you want to come up with for Tito?
Did he do EVERYTHING right in your mind?
My Twitter @totheights
Not everything right.
But no more wrong than any other manager in baseball. There largely will be no difference between Tito and the next manager that comes in here. I really like Tito as a person, as such I would really prefer he stay.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Other managers did not have the resources given to them
That Tito has gotten here. That is not an accomplishment.
Higher payroll = Higher standards. Whether we like it or not.
I like Tito as a person too, seems like a funny guy who was well liked by most. But this isn’t life. We aren’t trying to build a best friends club here. The goal is to win games and win championships, not be the most well liked.
My Twitter @totheights
Like I said
Standards are higher, but there won’t be a change in results. Managers simply do not have that large of an impact on the game. Most of what they do is routine, any manager with experience can do it as well as any other, most of the rest of it is luck. At most a manager “better” than Tito may make a handful of more shrewd moves, but it in the end they won’t amount to much in the wins collumn. A September collapse like this next year under a different manager is as likely as this one was, very unlikely.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I disagree
A manager who can motive players, know when to pull a starter, which reliever to use can make a big difference. Those were Tito’s three biggest short comings and it cost us in the end this year.
My Twitter @totheights
As I told Sean
Backseat pitching managing doesn’t work. We cannot possibly know the things that need to be known to make the bullpen decisions. It’s more than ‘this guy of this handedness is up, go put in this guy’. As for September, in the end, the only reliable arm in the pen was Aceves and he couldn’t pitch every inning of relief. Every decision essentially had the outcome of a tossup. It’s easy to criticize leaving this starter or reliever in too long, but we only know a miniscule amount of what we need to know about those decisions.
And I still contend that Tito isn’t any better or worse than most managers in the league. Every bullpen loss or come from behind victory will likely be blamed on the manager for their bullpen move, and how many of those occur every season for each team? Plenty. I’d imagine that Rays ‘fans’ were calling for Maddon’s head by leaving Price in so long the other day.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Maybe we should bring Grady Little back then.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
He probably wouldn't do any better or worse.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
did he do EVERYTHING wrong?
Obviously managers get too much credit and too much blame but changes need to be made and so be it. Easier to part with Tito since he is also at the end of his K.
As I like to say, this isn’t Philly, Francona can not be blamed for all failings all the time.
Hurry, go slash his tires ala a Philly fan ( or fans) before he leaves the park.
"Play Hard Always"
No he did not do everything wrong.
And he most certainly isn’t the only one to blame in this collapse.
The players are at fault. His assistants are at fault. Theo is at fault. But you can’t fire everyone.
That why you always see the coach/manager/leader get fired when things go wrong in sports. Because it is their job to make things go right and get the wins. How many coaches have the Royals/Pirates/Padres/and all the other crappy teams gone through this decade? It is not all those managers faults that the players on those teams were awful, but most of them still got fired.
Results, they are the name of the game.
My Twitter @totheights
From all the speculation flying, here I what I gather:
Pedrioa and Papelbon were leaders.
Lackey, Beckett, Youkilis were trouble makers.
My Twitter @totheights
And Gonzo blamed God
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Sep 30, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
and ESPN
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
by Tessie's Dad on Sep 30, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you see that ESPN the Magazine issue?
I blame ESPN myself. And God. And Everyone.
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Sep 30, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Off to my interview
I should ask if they hold people accountable when things go wrong, because from what I’m hearing, most employees can do whatever they want.
I want one of those jobs.
by Sean O on Sep 30, 2011 12:15 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Try government:
mediocre wages, but awesome benefits and zero accountability.
Good luck.
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
by Tessie's Dad on Sep 30, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Well Good Luck
But you can’t forget, the players are just as much as the employees as Tito.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
But what a lot of people miss
is that he IS their manager. If, at work, I stop doing my job well, I get in trouble. If my whole department stops getting work done, my manager gets in trouble.
This about says it all for me:
Team-Payroll Since 2009-Playoff Wins in Span
Yankees-$610,471,606-16*
Red Sox-$445,955,807-0
Phillies-$427,908,804-14*
http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/7036983/underachieving-boston-red-sox-flunked-chemistry
My Twitter @totheights
Arbitrary data endpoint
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Sep 30, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Especially when I consider 2009 and 2010
To be outside his control.
2009 was a fine piece of managing. Beyond Beckett and Lester it was Brad Penny as our most reliable starter, BRAD PENNY. The bullpen sucked too. Sure we got swept, but we probably shouldn’t have been in October anyway.
2010 was injuries, there is not a single manager who could have taken the 2010 team with all those injuries into the playoffs.
2011, much tougher to diagnose.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
VERY Arbitrary.
You’re taking what you need for your point and ignoring everything else. Can’t really do that.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
To be fair, it was ESPN's endpoint, not his...
… I really hate ESPN.
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Sep 30, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I'm not a big fan of ESPN's stupidity at times either.
But to bring it up as one’s talking point is just as silly.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Sure...
Just wanted to be clear that it’s not like he went to B-R in order to come up with that.
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Sep 30, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Point stands.
Tons of money went into this club the past three years, no results were produced.
Sure there were lots of things at play here, but that is unacceptable and looks like ownership agreed.
My Twitter @totheights
According to Theo
Reaching 90 wins was the barometer of a successful season. The last 2 years, from a fan’s standpoint, were not. 2009, the team was close.
Like you said earlier, he’s not the only one at fault, but based upon this year especially, Tito’s head is apparently on the platter.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Some people here are going to very surprised
When whoever replaces Francona as manager makes just as many or more blunders as he did.
by Sologub on Sep 30, 2011 12:24 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Sep 30, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Good Point
Many people tend to forget that being a baseball manager is very much a psychological endeavor along with the whole issue of “well in hindsight if he did this…”
Anybody remember Joe Torre? He stunk in St. Louis (I think?) prior to coming to the Yankees and guess what happened?
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
His payroll tripled and his clubhouse was filled with steroid dealers?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
*sigh*
Those were the days…
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Sep 30, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Somewhat irrelevant
All managers make the wrong move. This decision largely revolves around different issues.
by Sean O on Sep 30, 2011 12:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I am not celebrating.
I am happy that the club took action and think it was the right move.
But hardly celebrating a guy losing his job, especially the one who was leading the club during our two World Series wins.
My Twitter @totheights
So.........
Now what do we do?
This about sums up the past few days:
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
Herreshoff.info -- The most awesome website since the invention of the internet.
Mike Lynch
@LynchieWCVB: Sox ownership voted Francona out two weeks ago. Major objection: no sense of urgency in the clubhouse.
My Twitter @totheights
Ah, irony.
The carefree attitude that made him perfect for the job also got him fired.
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
by Tessie's Dad on Sep 30, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, life
I dated someone whose laidback ways were such a draw to me, being Type A .
Years in,I wanted to strangle him, I felt I needed to check to see if he had a pulse, I wanted a reaction to things.
"Play Hard Always"
You should talk to my wife...
I’m positive she occasionally has the same feelings about me.
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Sep 30, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyway, my three top candidates for the job would be:
Joey Cora
Dave Martinez
Tony Pena
My Twitter @totheights
Meet your new manager:
Ya jackwagons!
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
by Tessie's Dad on Sep 30, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Yes.
Please yes.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
JOHN LACKEY. Show me your war face!!!
by The Name is Dalton on Sep 30, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I really wish I could recall the OTMer who posted
something like: Lackey won’t catch a break because he is ugly.
He will always be the face of an ugly collapse. No way around it. Crawford and others get their share but Lackey will be poster boy for the ugliness.
"Play Hard Always"
Is Tito gone?
Theo’s statement:
John Henry, Tom Werner, Larry Lucchino, Ben Cherington and I met with Terry Francona this morning at Fenway Park to exchange thoughts and information on the 2011 season and discuss areas for improvement going forward. We all plan on taking some time to process the thoughts expressed in the meeting. There are no immediate plans for an announcement.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
pretty sure he's gone
I’ve never seen a flood of reporters this sure about something be wrong (at least in sports)
Another way of looking at it
Is Tito is worn out and the Sox FO wants to keep him and asked him to take time and reconsider.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Sep 30, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
This.
Whether or not Francona could have done something about the Collapse (yes, I’m going with proper noun status), he’s gotta be taking it at least as hard as us. It’s the kinda thing that might want someone to look for another job elsewhere.
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Sep 30, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, sorry... didn't see you post this before me!
That’s what I’m taking away from this. Especially given how Tito left the presser yesterday.
Infinite Improbability makes this the most likely situation
simply due to the fact that it is the least logical solution possible, and thus the least likely. If only MEGAQUAKE hadn’t somehow tossed us into the Infinite Improbability vortex.
…This post will make MUCH more sense if you’re read Hitchhiker’s Guide.
I have no idea what to think anymore.
Owners voted 3-0 to let him go two weeks ago. He wants to quit. Sox want him to stay. Did we really land on the moon?
From the sound of it I think they’re doing the right thing and letting the emotions simmer and going forward once the decision making is being done from a level headed position.
But then, everything they’ve been saying might be a lie. Who knows.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Also:
Ron Swanson for manager if they do fire Tito.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Let the campaign begin.
Free Ron Swanson
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
and now it's official
in the end, it sounds like he wanted to walk away and the owners wanted to make sure to not make it look like they were shoving him out the door.
Well, from the PR standpoint it briefs well
First (Thank you Tito for all the memories) and I would love to see Pena manage- so I hope they hire him!
Next – fire all the coaches and medical staff – just change directions now.
Then, Wake, Tek and Drew retire
Then, Trade Youk now (love you but time to go cannot have Lowell part II)
Retain Gonzo, Pedey, Ells and Lester, Lavernway, Aceves and consider options on all others for trade possibilities.
Finally, \consider sending a message by dumping Lackey for a ham sandwich and player to be named later or just DFA him – he is total douche both in his professional and personal life…Henry can eat the money he owes it to the fanbase.
"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis
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