Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Win or Lose, Boston Celtics' New Big 3 Era A Success

Daily Links - Jeff Passan Edition

BOSTON, MA - SEPTEMBER 19:  Jacoby Ellsbury #2 of the Boston Red Sox connects, sending the ball to deep right,  for an inside the park home against the Baltimore Orioles defends in the seventh inning during the second game of a doubleheader at Fenway Park September 19, 2011 in Boston, Massachusetts. (Photo by Jim Rogash/Getty Images)

I should be upset about splitting a double header at home against Baltimore, but can you really be upset when a team that has lost fourteen of the past seventeen wins a game? Sure it was against Baltimore, sure the pitcher they were facing a pitcher with a 9.84 ERA (and that was before he gave up six runs in an inning and two thirds), and sure the same old problems were there, at least in the starting pitching department. But for part of one day I'm checking my pessimism at the door, people. We got Bedard and Beckett going today and tomorrow. Hopefully that's enough to run out the clock win some games.

Link time!

The Red Sox have had a September to forget. Unfortunately for them, nobody is forgetting yet. There are calls for the team's front office and coaching staff to be held responsible for the team's failures, which I imagine they will be, though probably not in the way that many people mean. One of those people calling from the proverbial rooftops is Yahoo's Jeff Passan who wrote a scathing article on the Red Sox failures. It's long, though don't let that stop you from reading it. (Craig Calcaterra over at Hardball Talk wrote a rebuttal to Passan that's also worth reading.)  There's much to digest here, so let's go through it.

1. John Lackey - Free agents are often over-paid (relatively speaking) as to sign one you have to be the highest bidder. So the issue here isn't how well are the players producing or what are their salaries, believe it or not. The issue is, was it reasonable to expect good performance from the two for close to the duration of their contracts. I can't speak for the Red Sox front office, but I didn't expect either player to be close to this bad, nor did I read any articles suggesting so. John Lackey looked like a number three or maybe if we got lucky, a number two starter to me at the time of his signing. Instead he's a number six, i.e. he probably shouldn't be in the rotation now. Was it reasonable to think he'd be this bad? I don't think it was. It wasn't a contract I'd have given out, but his current performance falls far to the edge of the spectrum of possible outcomes.

2. Carl Crawford- Ditto for Crawford who was universally seen as a premium player coming into the 2010 season. The odds he would have 0.4 fWAR by mid September were such that had you bet on it you'd be buying a nice house in a good neighborhood with your winnings. Crawford might be over-paid, but again, that really isn't the point. It was more than reasonable to expect him to play far above the level he has played at this season, at least somewhere around his career norm as opposed to twenty leagues under the sea below it, and killing the front office for this signing reeks of Monday Morning Quarterbacking.

3. Dustin Pedroia - Pedroia is a legitimate MVP candidate who has had a rough couple weeks at the plate. I don't see any reason Pedroia's slump reflects negatively on the jobs either Theo Epstein or Terry Francona have done, nor on the player himself. Pedroia is having a great season so far and this is just a blip.  Regardless, there's no reason two bad weeks by the MVP candidate second baseman should shine a bad light on the GM.

Star-divide

4. Jon Lester. A couple bad starts that, again, happened to coincide with slumps and bad starts from the rest of the team. Should he be better than that? No, actually. Players have slumps, and pitchers have bad starts. It happens to everyone. Everyone. Bad timing in this case, but again, I don't see how two lousy starts by a top line starter reflects poorly on Epstein.

5. Erik Bedard. Ah, now we're actually getting somewhere. Epstein traded for Bedard at the deadline this season, a move I advocated for at the time. What's more, Epstein nixed a deal for A's starter Rich Harden over health concerns and then turned around and dealt for Bedard. Not surprisingly Bedard has pitched well when he's been healthy and also not surprisingly, he's only been healthy a bit over half the time. I think this is a fair criticism. I still like the Bedard deal, but it wasn't enough by itself to cover for the struggles of Lackey and Wakefield and the inept filling in by Weiland and Miller. A better question might be was it fair for Epstein to see those struggles coming?

6. Terry Francona. I've had my bones to pick with some of Francona's moves recently, but you don't lose 14 of 17 by not pinch hitting once or twice, by sac bunting a few times too often or by switching out a reliever or two. That comes down to performance and while Francona may have some affect on that in the margins, he's not a football coach (as Passan rightly points out). He can't gameplan to help John Lackey throw better pitches. Ultimately for good or bad, that's on the player, and that's on the front office for signing that player. Remember, this is the same manager who is 8-0 in World Series games. I bring that up not to shout down any criticism, but for some perspective. This isn't a guy who walked in off the street. He hasn't lost the team because he called for a bunt once too often or started Player A over Player B.

7. Injuries. The Red Sox do seem to get injured at an abnormally high rate. Part of that is probably team age. When you have older players, they tend to get hurt more often. Maybe, as Buster Olney suggested over twitter, part of it is some players not being in proper shape. Was Kevin Youkilis' sports hernia the product of a not-vigorous-enough weight regime in the off season? I suppose it's possible though it sounds unlikely. Was Carl Crawford's hamstring pull and recent stiff neck the result of training too hard? I mean, maybe? How about Clay Buchholz's broken back? At a certain point you have to chalk some of this up to rotten luck.

8. Pitcher Depth. I covered this in a recent article here at OTM and I think it still holds true. I'm not sure if any team is prepared for the run of injuries to starting pitchers that the Red Sox have endured this year. Pick a team at random, find their tenth best starter and throw him into a major league pennant race. I'm guessing it won't turn out well. Should the Sox have given Kevin Millwood a chance? Probably. Should they have acquired Jeremy Guthrie or a similar starter? In a vacuum maybe so, though without knowing what talent teams were demanding in return it's hard to say the Red Sox made a mistake. The minor league system wasn't ready to fill in for all the injuries the team suffered and that's where things got (and remain) rough. I suppose that is on the GM, though if a meteor strikes the country it's the President's fault in some way even though you'd be silly to not vote for him based on that.

9. Theo Epstein. He assembled this M*A*S*H unit and so he'll ultimately take the credit or the blame for the results. He could have assembled a deeper pitching staff, though going into the year the pitching staff appeared plenty deep. He could have signed other free agents (or none at all) but the ones he did sign were widely expected to be useful players. He could have hired a new training staff or dealt players who were known to be out of shape, but at a certain point turning into a taskmaster about fitness becomes self-defeating.

To me the two legitimate criticisms are that ee could have traded for more and/or different starting pitchers at the deadline and he could have held on to Kevin Millwood. While both of those are true they presuppose that Epstein could see the pitching injuries coming around the corner. I'm not sure he could be fairly expected to do so.

In the end, this is mostly Monday Morning QBing. I'm sure Passan had his disagreements with some of the moves the Red Sox have made over the years which have led to assembling the roster, but taken individually, most of Epstein's moves were universally liked. Understand, that doesn't make them good moves, but it makes them the best moves one can make with the knowledge available at the time. I'm not sure what else you could fairly ask for.

* * *

For those of you who will be pissed about not having any links, I offer you these in brief:

Comment 38 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Sometimes his 10 degrees are interesting for the trivia

But a lot of the time he is kind of a d-bag. I got dizzy reading the article because my eyes were rolling so much.

I believe the Sox will play in October. I don't hate Theo or Tito. I think Crawford and Lackey are both better than their results this year.

by Fromalabama on Sep 20, 2011 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

He has some interesting points at times, even if I may not agree with them so I am not saying he is useless as a writer. But sometimes, like you, your eyes roll enough to make you sick.

by The Name is Dalton on Sep 20, 2011 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Did you guys know that if we win tonight, it'll be two in a row??

EXCITING!!

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Sep 20, 2011 8:26 AM EDT reply actions  

I can't imagine how that will happen though.

Bedard is 4 or 5 innings, max. Then what? The rest of the bullpen was pretty taxed last night.

Freshest middle man? Andrew Miller, everybody!

by cds7c on Sep 20, 2011 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wake?

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Sep 20, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously, people.

That Grant Brisbee link is funny. Click it.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Sep 20, 2011 8:29 AM EDT reply actions  

I basically clicked the HBT link to see the hot blonde.

Yup. Kinda hot.

Calcattara (or whatever) has a face for radio and a voice for blogging. I lasted through his first point and wanted to wrap a folding chair around his head. CLICK.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Sep 20, 2011 8:38 AM EDT reply actions  

Who was the last

good pitching prospect that the organization generated? I know we let one go in the Gonzo trade, but a legitimate criticism of Theo is the organization’s judgement of young pitching talent. None of the prospects that have been brought up this year have looked major league ready, and I don’t really see anyone in Portland who is a world beater either.

It is hard not to compare that to the Rays, who have generated 5 major league starters in 18 months.

by flasoxfan on Sep 20, 2011 9:04 AM EDT reply actions  

Masterson pitched well for Cleveland

Albeit he was a “prospect” from a couple of years ago. I believe Tazawa might have been up earlier on a consistent basis but he had a set-back with TJ (IIRC) surgery. Doubront had an injury earlier this year I think, but I can’t really say for sure that either of those two would have been up. As far as who is close to ready, I’m not a scouting expert but the general consensus I think is a lot are a year or two or more but there is talent there in the lower levels.

But I agree. Our recent pitching development from the minors does not compare to Tampa Bay, although outside of Atlanta or San Francisco I’m not sure any team is on their level.

by The Name is Dalton on Sep 20, 2011 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think it's reasonable to think that if Doubront had not gotten injured

and stayed on his development pace, that he would at least have made the September call-ups and likely a spot start or two prior to that. He was definitely higher up the chain than Weiland as of the end of last year.

We have some potentially very good prospects in the organization but after bringing up so many of just a few short years ago (Lester, Buchholz, Ellsbury, DP, Youk, etc.) and trading a few more of recent vintage (Masterson, Kelley, Rizzo), a lot of our current top wave of prospects have been drafted/signed only in the last couple of years and are a couple years away from having impact.

If you get ‘impact’ from only a couple of new prospects each year then you are doing pretty damn good. This year’s ‘impact’ is felt in the form of Adrian Gonzalez, for whom we traded a couple of nice prospects. The prior year’s impact was Victor Martinez, for whom we traded Masterson. Before you fret over the fact that Victor is gone, we did get draft picks for losing him to FA, – but those will take years to then have ‘impact’.

Overall, Theo’s been able to keep a stead flow of talent coming from the farm, but it doesn’t always show up at the MLB club as rookies. Sometimes it shows up indirectly.

Tampa Bay is still living off the fact that they absolutely sucked for many years and constantly had very high draft picks. Think about this: Up until through 2007, they had NEVER had a .500 record! And had finished 5th in the east in 9 of 10 straight seasons (they were 4th in 2004). The 70 wins they posted in 2004 was a FRANCHISE HIGH!

So, basically they now have all these guys that were drafted with extremely high picks up through just 4 years ago all reaching their prime. This is nowhere more evident than in their starting rotation Joe Madden is a smart manager – one of the best in the game. But his job has been WAAAAAYYYYY easier than Terry Francona’s this year when it comes to managing his starting rotation. He basically has a bunch of young stud pitchers who he keeps sending out knowing he’ll get 6+ quality innings from them.

Tampa should remain at least ‘relevant’ for 3-6 more years when the last of all those high drafts should start to turn over. They can stretch it out by trading some players. But without the ability to resign their best talent, it’s going to go to other teams. Last year’s off season saw the first big wave of that.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Sep 20, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

It is indeed to reasonable to think Doubront would’ve been up earlier if not for the injury issues. Do you think he may have even been the call-up before Miller? I imagine that would’ve been a decent possibility. Time will tell how he will pan out and I hope he becames a serviceable guy for our staff.

Great points on TB. It will be interesting to see how the management there does over the next few years. I think they are only going to be able to get so many of their players to agree to rediculously team friendly deals like Longoria did ($17 million over six years?with options for 3 more to put it up to a Nine-year, $44 guaranteed deal? WTF!!!) and they’ll have to start retooling through trades more often.

by The Name is Dalton on Sep 20, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hard to say about Felix vs Miller.

Miller’s contract status kinda meant they needed to take a quicker look at him.

Miller’s contract is almost his own undoing. If any guy probably could have benefitted most from a slow, methodical development track it would have been Miller. Instead he’s been rushed along frantically with crazy expectations.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Sep 20, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Series of unfortunate events

We traded Kelly, traded Masterson, traded Hagadone. Pimental never became what he was supposed to, Britton took a huge step back. Tazawa got TJ surgery. Doubront got lazy. On top of that, we let Millwood go.

Luckily, Theo has loaded up on good pitching these last couple of drafts, both college and high school. So we’ll see. It is tough to see it happening but what the Rays have done with pitching is abnormal.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 20, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lester, Buchholz, Bard

Lester in 2006. Buchholz in 2007. Bard in 2009. Three terrific players. Outside of those three it has been far from greatness.

If you count International signings as prospects as opposed to free agents, Okajima came in in 2007 and had three very good seasons and Dice K came in in 2007 and had two ‘kinda’ good seasons.

As I said in a post a few days ago, the Sox should spend less money on free agents and more money trying to swipe the pitching scouts/trainers/coaches away from Tampa and Texas. The Sox obviously need an influx of new scouts/trainers/coaches. The team is not drafting the right personnel, and when they do, they trade those players away; as opposed to Tampa, who draft the right guys, train them well, bring them up under rookie contracts, and if they ever grow too big for Tampa, trade them for another batch of young, talented prospects. And the cycle begins again.

Recently, the Sox have traded away most of their young pitchers. Casey Kelly was a necessary loss in order to get Gonzalez, and I guess Justin Masterson can be seen as a necessary loss in order to get Victor Martinez, who killed it for a year-and-a-half, but is now enjoying a playoff season in Detroit. I’d love to have Masterson back. I’m betting Tito and the staff would love to have him back too. Dustin Richardson was traded for Andrew Miller a few years back. I don’t know who won this trade, but Richardson at least seems to be a capable middle reliever. Miller? He can probably develop into a capable middle reliever if he ever learns how to properly repeat his mechanics each pitch (forget about night-in, night-out, for Miller it’s each pitch!). This is going back a few years, but the Sox traded David Pauley back in ’09 and he is currently pitching very well for the Mariners.

Anthony Ranaudo is probably the next big thing (pitching-wise) in the Sox system. Alex Wilson just won a couple of awards and is coming off a fine Minor League season. It’s too soon to project Matt Barnes, Raul Alcantara, Justin Erasmus, or Keith Couch. All the other pitchers (Britton, Pimentel, Martin) have underperformed. Michael Bowden got called up, but he’s already 25 and doesn’t seem likely to become more than a trade chip or middle reliever for the organization. I’ve been surprised by how straight his fastball is and how readable his delivery is for hitters. He almost holds the ball up for the hitter to see, then delivers a straight 4-seamer right down the pike.

Weiland and Doubront were relatively well-respected prospects, always in the top-20, but they haven’t cut it this year and I hope they get time next year to recuperate in AAA. It can be very detrimental to a young pitcher’s confidence to come up to the Majors too early and get rocked time and again. Players respond differently to adversity, and I hope those two guys respond well.

Overall, the pitching depth within the Sox’s entire system is not great. They need an influx of young talent, which may come by way of an Ellsbury trade. [I’m not calling for an Ellsbury trade, or predicting one, I’m just saying he’s the team’s best trade chip to bring in young talent quickly.]

by Wicklow on Sep 20, 2011 9:48 AM EDT reply actions  

Bowden does thrown a ridiculously straight ball.

He has some velocity, but he needs to rework the delivery. That’s a guy I would push towards 3/4 or even sidearm. He holds it up like batting practice and keeps it as straight as possible. That, uh, isn’t going to work for you.

by cds7c on Sep 20, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Comparing to Tampa Bay’s drafting is pretty pointless. For one, they’ve had the top pick several times, and when you can choose any player out of the entire amateur pool, odds are you’ll get a pretty good player. Second, they’ve drafted a number of duds anyway—Wade Townsend, Tim Beckham, Josh Sale, and some fringy players—Delmon Young, Jeff Niemann, BJ Upton…

Also, the Sox emptied the top of the farm system to get AGon. This year’s team wasn’t built for depth. It was built to win with the players on their MLB roster. It was a gamble that appears to not be working out, but you need luck on your side to have a successful season anyway. The 2004 team, by contrast, did not have a single starting pitcher miss a start all year.

by BigNachos on Sep 20, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

High draft picks

doesn’t really explain Tampa’s success with pitchers. Moore was an 8th round pick, Hellickson a 4th round pick, Davis a third round pick, Cobb a 4th round pick, Only Neiman and Price were first round picks.

Tampa has had a ton of misses, you always do. But in the past 18 months they have produced 5 pitchers and Desmond Jennings (a 10th round pick).

by flasoxfan on Sep 20, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

That speaks more towards Tampa's ability being good rather than Boston's ability being bad.

Tampa’s ability to turn later round picks (and note almost all of them are within the top 8-10 rounds) seems to know no bounds, and while it’s easy to compare them to how we’re doing and saying we’re failing, it’s easier to compare them to the rest of the league and see just how good they are. I would wager most teams aren’t as good as Tampa, with possible exceptions like Oakland and maybe a few others. But still, while I don’t agree with compared them specifically to Tampa, we should be better than this.

The question is, then, why are they so good? What makes them special? Can we copy it and if so, why haven’t we yet? I think in general it was a down year in the farm for pitching. Yeah, you had guys like Weiland (at least in AAA) and Wilson do well, and young’n’s like Alcantara show promise, but guys like Britton and Pimentel took steps back, Doubront had an assortment of ailments and issues that prevented him from making starts of his own, and even when we did bring up a guy who showed success at AAA (Weiland) he showed he wasn’t ready for MLB pitching now, if ever. Do we have a bad system in place for developing pitchers? That’s what I wonder.

by South Coast Ghost on Sep 20, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Since 1999...

the Rays have had the #1 overall pick 4 times (more than any other team). They drafted: Josh Hamilton (‘99), Delmon Young (’03), David Price (‘07), and Tim Beckham (’08). That’s two superstars, one ok player who is still only 26 years-old, and one guy who hasn’t yet made it to the Majors but should someday. The only pitcher, Price, was a gem of an overall pick. Hamilton’s career was derailed by drug abuse. Delmon Young was traded for Matt Garza and Jason Bartlett, who, in turn, were traded for a combined nine players, some of whom are already on the team (Sam Fuld, Brandon Gomes) and others who are highly-rated prospects (Chris Archer, Hak-Ju Lee).

The Rays two recent superstar pitcher call-ups: Jeremy Hellickson was drafted in the 4th round. Matt Moore in the 8th round.

If you look at the #1 overall picks in MLB history, there are an equal amount of duds and successes. I’d say the Rays have done a rather good job selecting the #1 overall pick in the four tries they’ve had. But that’s not where they’re doing their most damage. The Rays are stockpiling draft picks the way the Sox stockpiled draft picks eight to ten years ago. The Rays are building from within (because they have to with their low payroll), and the Sox, seemingly, have moved in the opposite direction – big-money free agents and veterans to patch holes (remind anyone of the Yankees?). The Sox need to reinvigorate their entire system and begin building from within again – like they did when they brought in and groomed Pedroia, Youk, Ells, Paps, and so on. Now, they have to work on the pitching within their system. They have the every day players. They need pitching. That’s why I said they should go steal some scouts and trainers.

by Wicklow on Sep 20, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, the sox had 2 first round picks and 2 compensation round picks this past draft. That’s about the best you can do if you’re still signing type A FA’s.

Is Hellickson really a superstar? His peripherals scream overachiever this year.

There’s just tons of luck involved in developing pitching. The A’s were lauded for developing pitching in the late 90’s/early 2000’s, but what have they done lately? I think the sox have done well enough in drafting quality arms—they just need a bit of luck to have some of them turn into stars.

by BigNachos on Sep 20, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lester

was drafted in ’02, Papelbon in ’03, Buchholz in ’06, Bard and Masterson in ’06.

Really the organization hasn’t produced anything of real value in terms of pitchers since the ’06 draft. Of course there is a lengthy development timeline, but I was struck when I looked at the AA roster at the age of the pitchers. The Youngest looked to be 23: that is hardly the sign of a grade A prospect.

by flasoxfan on Sep 20, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Casey Kelly was valuable enough to land us AGon. Most of the problem is the 2007 and 2009 drafts look very weak, but 2008 was an excellent draft and 2010 is looking pretty good so far.

by BigNachos on Sep 20, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's really all about the starting pitching

Yes, there have been too many injuries to key players, and yes, Bard went through a few rough outings that cost the team bigtime. But almost all relievers go through a patch like that during a season. The team isn’t choking. And it certainly isn’t quitting. If the team was a “choke” team or a quitting team, it would have been easy to quit early on in game 2 last night when Lackey gave up 3 runs in the first and everybody knew he was on his way to give up lots more. It’s all in the starting pitching. It has been a disaster and nobody could have expected it to be this bad. The team has hit enough so that they would have wrapped up a playoff spot long ago with just starting pitching that wasn’t a disaster. Lackey and Wakefield need to be done for the year and not on the playoff roster if they make it that far. Bedard, Beckett, and Lester will start 6 of the final 8 games. I think you start Aceves on Saturday and Buchholz on Tuesday for the other 2. Yes, Buchholz on Tuesday. If he pitches just 3 innings, then you give Aceves 3 innings after that. You just have to piece it together. With all this disaster, the Sox have good pitchers going in the majority of the remaining games. If they go 5-3, then the Rays would have to 8-2 just to tie. If they go 4-4, then the Rays would have to go 7-3 just to tie. The Red Sox are still in the much better position here. They just need some decent starting pitching.

Jeff Edelman
Student.com
http://www.student.com

by Jeff Edelman on Sep 20, 2011 9:49 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm predicting it will be over by Monday, a 3 game lead becomes a clinch

when Beckett beats the O’s Monday night.

Tuesday or Wednesday is a tryout for Buchholz.

by cds7c on Sep 20, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I think you need to give Buch a coupe games of 2-3 innings at least

But if this team does back into the playoffs they will need relievers that can go 2-3 innings. Bedard doesn’t go 7-8 innings and while Beckett and Lester can go that long they are not necessarily a lock to as much as Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee or Justin Verlander are.

We need those long relief guys especially to keep from overusing Bard down the stretch run here.

by The Name is Dalton on Sep 20, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

well, with Lackey's performance last night, there is still a real chance

they see Buchh as the 4th starter….assuming Bedard is good at all tonight.

If Bedard looks like he did in August, he’s the #3, even if he’s a 5 to maybe 6 inning guy.

I’m a Lackey fan, but after last night, I don’t see them going back to him again. Wake may get a start before Lackey in the postseason. So, if Clay can go 4-5 innings next week as a starter, they will probably pencil him in as the 4th starter in the ALDS and deal with whatever happens. It can’t be worse than 8ER in 4.1…and complaining about being removed.

by cds7c on Sep 20, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

that would leave a huge void in the bullpen, unfortunately

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Sep 20, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Buch comes back and can perform reasonably well up to a 60ish pitch count

I would like to see him take the 4th spot, and plan on using Aceves/Weiland in a long relief role to get them to a Bard and/or Paps late in the game.

I think it was in another thread where someone ran the numbers and Weiland is much, much better in pitches 1-25 than in 25-50(or 60, couldn’t remember). I think I may have mentioned in that same thread as using Aceves and Weiland in similar, 2-3 inning relief guy roles with Aceves getting the call in the closer games if at all possible. And Weiland eating up a couple innings in case of a blowout (in our favor or against).

Lackey seems to suck right out of the gate, so if we could use Buch for 4 innings and if Weiland come in to even give 2 good innings (which is much more reasonable than expecting 4-5 out of him right now), it would be much better than the alternatives of throwing Lackey and Wake out there.

by The Name is Dalton on Sep 20, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't say I was confident in pitching depth going into this season.

Not at all. I was confident in Lester and Buchholz. I HOPED Beckett would have a renaissance and be as good as he’s been this year, but it wasn’t guaranteed and I wouldn’t have bet the farm on it. I had zero confidence in Dice-K (both his talent and his ability to stay healthy) or Lackey. As excited as I was about Gonzo and Crawford, I really thought the team should have made a move for some pitching.

That said, I can’t remember who or what was available as a realistic acquisition that would shore up the rotation, so there’s always that to consider. But honestly, I don’t think that it’s a case of Theo having to predict injuries. I think Theo should have been able to easily see the holes in this rotation even before you consider depth, and should have acted accordingly.

Founder and Editor of The Bent Musket on SBNation

by Steve Stoehr on Sep 20, 2011 12:03 PM EDT reply actions  

The franchise thought Lackey was the #2 going into this year.

He was solid if unspectacular last year, so he drew the #2 slot going into Texas in April.

Beckett was the one that everyone thought might have a 6.49 right about now.

A lot of people expected a good bit of regression for Buchh, and he’s got it through injuries. I think he’s also the key to next year. If Buchh can pair with Lester at the top of the rotation, you can deal with what will likely be a year where Lackey likely rebounds to mediocrity (ouch) and Beckett has an even-year where he blows.

by cds7c on Sep 20, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Buch's peripheral stats spoke to the sub-3 ERA being a fluke

He’s not gonna be that guy, or at least not if he continues to pitch even the way he did last season. But a very good #3, possibly #2? I think he’ll even out right at that level. As far as dealing with Lackey, firstly I can’t see how the organization thought he’d be a solid #2 (I’m sure they did think so, but I can’t see their logic). I could tell last season that he wasn’t a good option near the top of the rotation, not in this division. And frankly, Lester, healthy Buch, mediocre Lackey and bad Beckett is NOT a rotation I can deal with if I’m looking for this team to win a World Series. Not when Philadelphia employs four staff aces. I love our offense, but pitching is King, and we are definitely not in the ruling class in any of those scenarios.

Founder and Editor of The Bent Musket on SBNation

by Steve Stoehr on Sep 20, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think part of the #2 starter deal is that they wanted Beckett to get his first start against Cleveland

Instead of a potent line-up in Texas to work him back in. If they had played Cleveland, etc in the opening series I could personally see them having Beckett in that spot instead, despite his 2010 struggles. I guess they did think Lackey could better handle Texas, either that or they just really wanted to build Beckett’s confidence up before facing tougher line-ups. They did have Lackey in front of Buch as well, I suppose.

by The Name is Dalton on Sep 20, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

In fact

I believe Tito specifically said that he and Curt Young discussed the Beckett issue and decided to hold him back until the Cleveland series.

by The Name is Dalton on Sep 20, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not using numbers to illustrate where they were to start the season

I meant more of the de facto rotation than the actual numerical order. You know Lester was the #1, given the way he pitched you had Beckett as your #2, Buch is your #3, Lackey is your #4 and so on. However, I honestly think they went into the series thinking that it was Lester/Lackey/Buch/Beckett, which, without the hindsight of Beckett’s revival, shouldn’t really scare any team in the hunt for a playoff spot.

Founder and Editor of The Bent Musket on SBNation

by Steve Stoehr on Sep 20, 2011 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jeff Passan

is the master of Hindsight and Bullshit

by lololol on Sep 20, 2011 5:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Over the Monster, an SB Nation community that delivers news and analysis while encouraging discussion regarding everything Boston Red Sox. OTM was founded Feb. 22, 2005.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Einstein_small
OTM Fantasy: Week 7
Einstein_small
OTM Fantasy: Week 6

Recent FanPosts

010_small
OTM Simpson Analogues
Pedroialazers2_small
The possibility of trading Kevin Youkilis
Moar_bacon_small
PSA vs. OTM Fantasy Smackdown Update
Small
The Curious Case of Daniel Nava
Rsz_ashleyspade_small
Top Red Sox Prospects
Einstein_small
OTM Fantasy: Week 5
Small
Mariano Rivera and TS Elliot and maybe Robert Frost
Small
Rivera has torn ACL

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Managers

Red_seat_small Ben Buchanan

Twitter_eb_2_small Marc Normandin

Authors

Lowrie__1234972975_0178-1_small lone1c

Jddrew_small gizmosandy

Pedoria1_small Mattsullivan

Baghead-1_small Matthew Kory

Photo__2__small BrendanOToole

Cee_small Cee Angi