No Place For Unwritten Rules Of Surrender
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 9, 2011 12:43 PM EDT
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"I think it was a little bush league, bottom of the eighth, two outs, up by six, swinging 3-0. I don't think we were hitting anybody intentionally there. But if it's got to come down to that, it's got to come down to it."
-Nick Markakis (via WEEI)
"He's been leaning out over the plate the whole series, and he does all the time," Gregg said. "I'm going to pitch in to be able to get him out. He disliked it. That's part of the game. He doesn't have to like it but I'm going to pitch in there to get him out. Apparently, he thought I was throwing at him but if I was going to throw at him, I would've hit him. If I was going to throw at a guy, I'm going to hit the guy, I'm not going to miss him. I believe I can hit a guy if I want to, and I wasn't trying to hit him. I was trying to pitch in and get him out."
-Kevin Gregg (ditto)
First off, let's get this out of the way: No, Kevin Gregg, you probably are the only player not named Kyle Farnsworth who does not get the benefit of the doubt re: your ability to hit someone. See: the two-thirds of your pitches that don't find the zone, and the punches that did not find David Ortiz.
Now let's really get into this thing.
Following yesterday's brawl, the Orioles were throwing out equal parts justification (Markakis) and vitriol (Gregg). At the center of it seems to be this unwritten rule whereby a team with a seemingly unassailable lead should lay down and die late in the game so as to...I don't know...not make the other team feel bad?
The first issue I'm sure most of you will notice is how one-sided this deal seems to be.
Why is Gregg pitching inside, ostensibly?
"To get Ortiz out."
Even giving Gregg the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't trying to hit Ortiz for all the damage he'd done in the series so far, does it not seem a bit unfair that an incredibly wild pitcher gets to risk hitting an opponent in the spirit of competitive play while the opponent is not supposed to play competitively? If Ortiz should not be swinging, then don't come in on him three straight times. That's the sort of thing you might consider should be saved for one-run games, kind of like swinging 3-0 with a runner on third.
But I encourage Gregg to come inside--not throw at him, but come inside--because the idea that a team should stop scoring runs in the eighth inning of a blowout is crazy. And if any matchup proves this, it's Red Sox - Orioles.
I wonder, did the O's simply lie down in the top of the ninth on Mother's Day, 2007? Do they wish they hadn't?
Or perhaps it was the Sox who left runs on the table on June 30, 2009, when a 10-1 lead evaporated in the last two innings of the game?
Ortiz was entirely right to swing at that 3-0 pitch. He's not obliged to make Kevin Gregg or the Orioles feel good about themselves, and if Gregg is going to pitch seriously, he should absolutely expect to have serious swings taken against him.
Oh, and for what it's worth, it's absolutely moronic for any player to be complaining about high payrolls. Or does Gregg not understand why he's making five million a year instead of a few hundred thousand?
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Surrender ! I appreciate it Ben, because that's what all teams will do before us this year.
The Orioles are one of the most pathetic franchises in MLB history.
The symbol of that organization is a greeny fueled “ironman” overrated, overstated cheater 2,632*.
I don’t know what else to say really. Red Sox fans fill Camden yards, we consistantly beat the holy hell out of that team . The lead announcer, the red headed prick (his name escapes me now), is the same guy that a few years ago said Schilling faked the bloody sock.
That franchise has not mattered in what 13-15 years? They have nothing going for them, so I could see where this would be the highlight of the season if you are one of the very few remaining O’s fans.
I suppose I’d hate the Red Sox too if I lked the O’s, jealousy is a real mother F.
In 10 years, the Nationals will have taken over the majority of the baseball fan’s in that area’s interest. The Nationals ownership is building something good there in DC.
The Orioles are the Pirates at this point, the red headed step child of the AL East.
OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
Hahahaahaha what?!?!?
I’m not a Baltimore or a Boston fan, but how the hell can you say this?
The symbol of that organization is a greeny fueled "ironman" overrated, overstated cheater 2,632*.
Tell me. How do you think the Sox win their 2 WS’s without Papi or Manny who are 2 of the posterboys for cheating?
Unbelievable.
Happiness is a long walk with a putter.
by craig in calgary on Jul 9, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I never at any point said that guys on the Sox were not cheating
The entire era was. And it’s my opinion that a certain someone who played for the O’s probably did too.
Believe it sister!
OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
If the Orioles didn't want the Red Sox to keep trying
then they should have conceded. It’s really that simple. Since Uncle Buck didn’t throw in the towel, the Sox get to keep taking hacks.
Bush league, even. Shut your mouth, dumbass.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
I think Uncle Buck threw in the towel back in spring training
he is just there for the pay check
OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
Sides. For all his $180M payroll talk
he’s probably pissed we didn’t want his useless ass:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/story/2010/12/07/sp-gregg-interest.html?ref=rss
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
The first pitch was probably the worst
The other two were barely inside, except that Ortiz practically stands on the inside part of the plate
that's just incorrect
the first one was off the plate and looked like he was trying to make Ortiz uncomfortable, I don’t think he was trying to hit him. The second one was close to a strike, but the third one was where he was blatantly trying to hit Ortiz
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 9, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The one furthest inside is the third pitch, FYI.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Yep
The first and third were the worst, with the thrid being the furthest inside. That’s why Ortiz took a step toward the mound and that’s why both benches were warned.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 9, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
And that's the one the pissed Ortiz off
He didn’t care for the first one. The second one didn’t seem to bother him a bit, which it shouldn’t have because that was a legit inside pitch. The third one was right at him which started everything. So Gregg should get more games than Papi in my opinion as he was the main instigator of this thing.
It was stupid to pitch very inside like that for the third pitch..
Gregg was better off going for the breaking ball if he wanted to pitch inside again, given he was down on the count…
They will probably get the same amount, given Gregg was ejected before the fight.
I am not that upset that Gregg was throwing inside, or even was close in hitting Papi, as much Papi shouldn’t react to a way inside heater after two other heaters. Papi has a right to be pissed, and Gregg had to be more precise on the third pitch.
It should had ended after the fourth pitch, instead it was a like a road rage incident.
How on earth can you not see his aim was not to pitch?
weather to hit or just send a message, he was not out there to pitch to Ortiz in the usual sense of the word. Consider:
A)He is their closer, and he is pitching in a game where is team is losing by 7 runs. He pitched in the last game of the previous series, so it is not like he was out there to “get work in.” He was out there to be a 6-5, 230 pound goon. How else can you explain it?
B)He got Papi’s attention on the first pitch which was a foot inside. The second pitch was half a foot inside (but likely not as inside as he wanted, because as we all know Gregg has trouble hitting his spots). The 3rd pitch was clear.
C)You can say silly things like “if he wanted to hit Papi he would” but that is BS. Papi, despite setting up very close to the plate, actually has a very good ability to avoid being hit because he shifts his weight back on swinging and has nimble feet. He gets hit far less frequently than Arod, Jeter, Youk….
D)You can say the 4th pitch was not so inside-but duh-he had been warned after the 3rd.
E)Just check his reaction to Papi after swinging. If you can explain it, feel free.
He was out there to goon it up-and he did.
If the intent was to hit Papi..
He would nail him on the first pitch up and in, right below the armpit, it is tough to get out of the way. The third pitch was way inside but a bit belt high, hence how Papi could had avoided it… Besides Wieters caught the ball.
I just see some pitchers do what Gregg has done to tell a hitter to back off. There is no point in three times in a row with the third pitch way inside. I just don’t see it as trying to hit the batter as much as trying to tell Papi to back off for this at bat and future.
We are going to have a difference of opinion, that is all..
Do you know how many hitters hit the dirt with some very high and inside pitch? It is a combo to tell the batter who is in control, and then have the batter guessing.
Gregg isn’t the greatest pitcher to start with, but he was doing more annoying things to try to intimidate Ortiz, and he blew it on the third pitch.
right
You no nothing about baseball if you think anytime someone wants to hit a batter they do-tell that to the Met pitchers that couldn’t even hit Fat Roger after he beaned Piazza. And it is not like he has skill in the box. If Papi did get hit, eg he couldn’t get out of the way, would that mean Gregg did mean to hit him? Come on now.
And you never did explain what Gregg was doing out there. Do you normally use your closer in the 8th down 7 when you have 4 other pitches you can use and he has been rested only one day? Explain.
What am I suppose to explain?
Gregg gave his explanation. I just know certain pitchers get ornery about certain batters being too close to the plate.
If you want to attack my argument, fine, but stop with this crap that I know nothing about baseball.
It is up to Showalter how he wants to manage his pen. If Gregg hasn’t been pitching in the last couple days, then he may want to use him, given the odds were high, he wasn’t going to be used in the ninth.
Calm down, it is a difference of opinion.
He last pitched on the 6th
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 9, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Bravo!
Anytime the Orioles want to concede the game, I believe the rules* permit them to forfeit. Until that time, the Red Sox are entitled and obliged to score as many runs as they can. If the Orioles don’t like it, they should try playing baseball, instead of gargling rotten zombie-dick on the field and then barking like castrated puppies once they’re in the safety of the clubhouse.
Fuck. Them.
* – these would be the actual rules, not the unwritten rules – which seem to only get mentioned when someone needs to justify acting like an infant.
"Laser show. So relax."
Francona is to McDonald and Jenks as Infant is to Plastic Bags and Matches
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 9, 2011 2:15 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Tange gets 3K
Congrats.
Commence ignoring the sports media for the next few days.
BULLSHIT
2 of his pitchs WOULD have hit papi if he didnt get out of the way
You know how I said my profile pic would always be an animal? well, Chara's a BEAST!
Markakis and Gregg's
comments almost got me mad as what transpired list night. Here are some things that are just so amazingly dumb:
a)Markakis didn’t even know the score. He said 2 times “up by 6.” Hey-moron, you were down by 7. Furthermore, what is this bullshit about swinging 3-0? You want Ortiz to try to take a walk? I mean that comment is choice.
b)Gregg is even dumber. Aside from the claim that he was “just pitching inside” (as if missing the plate by a foot inside is something that even a scrub like him would mistakenly do 3 straight times) I love his excuse for barking at Ortiz-that there is some disrepect if a runner doesn’t run out a pop fly. Huh? Are you Francona or a Sox bench coach? That may be the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
The payroll comments are exactly the same thing that Schowalter’s in the off-season. That was clearly intentional. Why is Gregg in the game? His team is down by 7, he pitched 2 days ago. He also happens to the only guy bigger than Ortiz on either team. That was planned by Schowalter, and carried out by Gregg. It should be over now, but I wish Ortiz didn’t charge the mound. Instead Weiters should have gotten one in the ribs.
Agree
Especially about the last part. It sucks that Ortiz will be suspended. I’d much rather see the Sox retaliate later and drill an Oriole hitter.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 9, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Good observation about why
Gregg was even in the game and what was his mandate. And let’s not forget who the Sox had in the game for the last couple of innings: Sutton 1b, Navarro LF/3b, Reddick LF, McDonald RF, Atch on the mound before heading back to Pawtucket. 5 of 9 were NOT regulars. As Remy said, by pitch #3 Papi knew what Gregg was trying to do … And he did it. Let’s see which team responds better to this planned brouhaha.
I agree
I made exactly the same point on the post-game thread.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 9, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Markakis, more egregiously, didn't even know what out it was.
by wolf9309 on Jul 9, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
In defense of Markakis...
… I’m pretty sure that almost everyone affiliated with the Orioles zones out for the last five innings of every game.
"Laser show. So relax."
Francona is to McDonald and Jenks as Infant is to Plastic Bags and Matches
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 9, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 9, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
“I’d like to see how smart Theo Epstein is with the Tampa Bay (Rays’) payroll,” Showalter was quoted as saying, according to the St. Petersburg Times. "You got (former Rays outfielder) Carl Crawford ’cause you paid more than anyone else ($142 million over seven years), and that’s what makes you smarter? That’s why I like whipping their butt. It’s great, knowing those guys with the $205 million payroll are saying, ‘How the hell are they beating us?’ "
Buck the Idiot.
OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
Let's add to more stupid Orioles quotes while we are at it why don't we
so far, we have gregg, markakis, buck and cannot forget the best of the bunch: Luke Scott
Even though the White House released President Obama’s birth certificate last week, Baltimore Orioles outfielder Luke Scott still isn’t sure he was born in America.
Scott, who said in December that he does not believe the president was born in America, questioned the validity of Obama’s birth certificate to Sam Mellinger of the Kansas City Star on Tuesday.
“(President Obama’s) birth certificate has yet to be validated,” Scott said. “If they can counterfeit $100 bills, I think it’s a million times easier to counterfeit a birth certificate, if you ask me. So, all it is, let’s just see if it’s real. Anybody can produce a document, so let’s check it out.”
According to the report, an Orioles employee witnessed Mellinger talking to Scott and said that the organization doesn’t support his views.
OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Jul 9, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Going 3-0 to get a guy out
How many hitters does Gregg expect to “get out” once he goes 3-0 on them? That’s just a lame excuse because he tried to hit him and missed. And Markakis needs to shut his mouth too. We were up by what, 7? We had already proven that many runs can be and has been scored in one inning. Markakis is on a “Bush league” team. Ortiz had every right to swing and go for an RBI. I only wish he’d hit it out.
"It's baseball...when you rake that's what happens" -Dustin Pedroia
by Fenway302 on Jul 9, 2011 2:41 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Random thoughts
- When I saw Ortiz rush the mound my first thought was “stupid!” as he’s probably looking at a 5 game suspension. Although the Sox can weather that storm, it’s going to hurt not having him in the lineup for nearly a week.
- The first and third pitch were more about establishing the inside corner of the batter’s box rather than the inside of the plate. I don’t think he was trying to hit Ortiz (if so, he failed miserably) but was sending two messages, I’m taking the inside of the plate back and I’m frustrated by losing.
- Ortiz should have been quicker to 1B, Gregg shouldn’t have chirped, Ortiz should have turned the other cheek. Plenty of blame to go around in that melee.
- Bench clearing brawls are usually anything but, aptly put by Mark Mulder more “shoves and hugs”. However, if MLB really wanted to stop them, they only have to do one thing in my opinion. Automatically eject any player or coach that leaves his position, bench or bullpen during such a confrontation.
why should ortiz need to be quicker to first?
it was an obvious out. I could see maybe Francona telling him that he needs to hustle more in those situations, but if the opposing pitcher is telling you to run harder on an obvious pop out, he’s just looking for an excuse to yell. This isn’t the same situation as strolling the bases after hitting a home run.
It's simple ettiquette
I’m not looking for him to touch 1B in 3.9 seconds, however, he was very slow and deliberate in dropping the bat and making his way up the line. It wasn’t neccessary and didn’t help, nor did Gregg chriping about it.
nonsense.
That is dumb. Ortiz always does that. he was not showing Gregg up or anything else. And there is no simple ettiquette here. In fact, if I am Gregg I would prefer him not to because his defense behind him is not exactly stellar and less hustle the better.
What etiquette?
Was Ortiz bragging about his soft fly ball to RF? Savoring the long,high arc as it settles into Markakis’ glove?
Gregg is a little bitch.
by Sean O on Jul 9, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with Buzzy and Sean
Is it OK to say that?
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 9, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
behold the new world order
united against little bitches like Gregg and Markakis.
Unless Markakis wants to play RF for us next year, at which point it’s fine.
Piss ettiquette
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 9, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Oh, man, there is nothing but awesome in there.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
there is so much pent up rage in baseball...
even with an automatic ejection, players will still do the brawling, because much is impulsive reaction than a conscious choice. Much like banning the beating of water coolers, would just channel the anger and rage to something else.
In Professional Football, a person can take their anger out in the game, especially linebackers and secondary, given they trained to be very aggressive, in baseball, there is the boredom mixed with short moments of anxiety..
I am more in favor of the current system of warning benches after the payback beanings, so the game wouldn’t turn into something that Ty Cobb would be proud of, (the man of the sharpen spikes and quick temper)
There is always going to be brawls in Major League Baseball, it is important that a game doesn’t turn to a fight with some baseball breaking out here and there.
Let's get real about a few things
The ump tossed Gregg for making whatever comment he made before/as Ortiz charged him. if Gregg keeps his mouth shut Ortiz takes those questionable pitches in stride. Ortiz didn’t cause the brawl, Gregg did period.
Kevin Gregg has terrible control, there is no way to tell if he was throwing in or throwing at Ortiz. I think he was throwing at him, but it isn’t like he missed behind him.
Every fan of every team should be up in arms anytime a team gets angry over the opponent playing hard when the score isn’t close. This isn’t little league, these players get paid to play this game and if they can’t take the embarrassment of a big loss, they should find another line of work. It isn’t like Tito was throwing Bard and Paps out there and keeping every top player on the field. The guys in the game should play hard every at bat no matter what. ITS WHAT THEY ARE PAID FOR!
- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
www.overthemonster.com
www.spacemanspancakes.wordpress.com
Gregg’s control wasn’t bad..
He was sending a message on the first two pitches. If he blew the third pitch, the placement was off by a couple inches/centimeters, but if his control was bad, the third pitch would be behind Ortiz, or Wieters wouldn’t had caught the third pitch.
I just saw a frustrated pitcher, who was going against a very feared hitter, and trying to get the hitter to not hog his workspace. However, Gregg blew it on the third pitch, and the message he was trying to get across was lost in the recrimination,
If his control was bad the fourth pitch would had been very close as well.
That doesn't make a lick of sense
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
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