Tim Wakefield: an 80-pitch pitcher.
As Sox fans will remember, it was clear in 2003 that Pedro Martinez wasn’t the same pitcher after he had reached a pitch count of 100. This was explored deeply in Mind Game by the Baseball Prospectus authors and you shouldn’t need me to remind you that ignoring this pattern led to the Sox’ downfall that year.
In 2011, we’re seeing a similar phenomenon with a member of the Red Sox rotation, Tim Wakefield, only he’s not getting to pitch 100. Take a look at these splits after the jump:
|
Pitch #s |
PA |
BB |
K |
OBPA |
SLGA |
OPS |
|
Pitch 1-25 |
131 |
5 |
15 |
.267 |
.439 |
.706 |
|
Pitch 26-50 |
114 |
8 |
19 |
.313 |
.386 |
.699 |
|
Pitch 51-75 |
110 |
9 |
12 |
.330 |
.465 |
.795 |
|
Pitch 76-100 |
64 |
6 |
3 |
.422 |
.732 |
1.154 |
It’s pretty clear from these splits that once Wakefield gets to around pitch 80 or so, he starts to fall apart. We’ve seen this in his last two starts: On July 24 against the Mariners’ historically bad offense, he had thrown 84 pitches and allowed 3 runs entering the 7th inning. With no one warming, he allowed a deep drive to center that was caught, then three consecutive line drives for singles followed by a Brendan Ryan grand slam.
The Sox were ahead 11-3 to begin the inning, so I defended Francona on Twitter by speculating that Wake would have been taken out earlier had the game been close. In his next start yesterday, though, Wake had been pitching a gem through 6, allowing just 3 baserunners through 83 pitches. Though the game was close, Francona had no one warming, and Wakefield walked Quentin and gave up a bomb to AJ Pierzynski. He got out of the inning without further damage, but the Sox couldn’t score and the game was lost.
The treatment of pitchers has come a long way in the last decade or two, and pitchers are no longer allowed to throw 150 pitches and abuse their arms. 100 pitches has become the new rule of thumb, as most starters are taken out around that point, unless they are Roy Halladay, or pitching very well, or managed by Dusty Baker. But it seems from the data we have on Wakefield that he’s not able to go 100 pitches, and in fact loses effectiveness at around pitch 80 or so.
What modern pitching usage has done is divide pitchers into two distinct categories: starters and relievers. The former is expected to be able to go 100 pitches every 5 days, while the latter is expected to be able to throw 20-40 pitches more frequently. But what the data shows us is that perhaps in the case of 44-year-old pitchers with pot-bellies (and probably elsewhere too), there are guys who can only go 80 pitches or so before they lose effectiveness. Maybe Wakefield could go 75 pitches every 4 days, but the Sox are not in a position to try that. But with Aceves’s seemingly rubber arm, a strong pen otherwise, and two workhorses at the top of the rotation, it shouldn’t be a big problem to limit Wakefield to 80 or so pitches, especially if that routinely means 6 effective innings. Unfortunately, I’m not sure Francona, Curt Young and the Red Sox coaching staff realizes this (or perhaps Wakefield himself).
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I really don't think you can call yesterday's start support for your theory.
A walk and one flat pitch is nothing close to resembling evidence.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Huh?
The walk, the flat pitch, the homer—those things, you know, happened. And they happened after pitch no. 80.
That’s evidence. More, that’s the whole point of his piece.
So anyone who walks a guy
and throws a flat pitch after pitch 80 can’t pitch after 80 pitches? It was two batters. As you, yourself, said, he finished off the inning with no further problems.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
I didn't write the piece...
I’m just defending it.
And I just wrote a longer defense under steel sox’s comment. You both are making a logical error in that because Wakefield was generally pitching well yesterday, you’re saying it means the results don’t apply. But they clearly do. Whether he gave up two runs or ten runs in this one specific game, the fact remains that after pitch 80, he ran into trouble.
And no, obviously “anyone who walks a guy and throws a flat pitch 80 can’t pitch after 80 pitches” is not the premise of my comments or the piece. You’re not even trying to be fair by saying that. The point is that anyone who walks a guy and throws a flat pitch 80 can’t pitch after 80 pitches when he has shown repeatedly that he can’t pitch after 80 pitches.
And by the way...
if I sound cranky, it’s only because of the trade deadline. My wife says it’s like I get PMS once a year.
Ha ha ha. Good to know!
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
The walk to lead off the inning could have easily been a K

And he set the three hitter down in order after the HR.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Jul 30, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't necessarily disagree with the point made in the article
what I’m saying is that last night was not an example which supports it. He gave up two runs in an inning. As Drugs points out below (and did in the thread last night), that BB could easily have been a K. Meaning, he threw one bad pitch, and then set down the side in order.
Not evidence.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Yesterday’s start on its own wouldn’t matter much, but it fits the pattern of the entire season. It’s plausible that he made the walk and flat pitch because he was fatigued. Maybe he didn’t, but it along with the other evidence we have points in that direction.
@bumpasaurus
Except he set down the next three batters in succession.
Which doesn’t support your fatigue hypothesis.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
I agree with your basic premise
(because the numbers support it), but not the application to yesterday’s game. A pitcher who had been as effective as Wakefield had been through six innings, 83 pitches (only one base hit besides the bunt single, one walk, one HBP) should not be pulled, especially when the bullpen is routinely overtaxed. And there’s no manager in the league that would pull him, even with full knowledge of the numbers you cited.
Yesterday’s game was lost because the 1-6 hitters in the lineup were 0 for 20, not because Francona and his staff failed to follow an 80-pitch rule for Wakefield. And I would be shocked if they were not aware of his increased ineffectiveness late in games. Do you really think that you are paying more attention than they are?
It DOES apply to yesterday
I don’t understand people griping with the application to yesterday’s game. What happened yesterday is a fact: after pitch no. 80, Wakefield’s results got much worse.
The fact that (a) his results in pitches 1 to 79 were better than they usually are and (b) his results after pitch 80 weren’t so bad as to put the game out of reach does not mean the results don’t apply.
And even if you’re right (which I think you are), that no manager would pull Wakefield after 80 pitches when he’d looked so good in pitches 1 to 79, it doesn’t change the fact that if he HAD been pulled, that inning might have gone scoreless.
Come on
you are not going to yank a pitcher in a 1-1 game and start burning your pen when your offense is doing nothing (one well hit ball the whole game) because of some notion about an 80 pitch cap. And as Bloggy rightly points out a walk and a homer happen so fast you can’t yank someone before that happens unless you actually start the 7th with a new pitcher (which makes no sense). Up until that point Wakefield had allowed 2 hits and a single run on the following combination-bunt, bunt, WP, sac fly.
This is the typical case of frustrated fan Monday morning QBing. If we won that game or if Wake didnt give up the homer-there would be no such fanpost, proving that this is just post-facto ranting. The problem is we couldn’t hit Floyd, not that Wake gave up 3 runs on 3 hits and 7 innings.
Oh give me a break
Did you actually read this fanpost or are you just being a jerk? I mean, damn, read the fanpost again, and tell me if “post-facto ranting,” as you called it, is even CLOSE to accurate.
Toe Nash has presented a completely level-headed, well-supported argument that Wakefield should not be in the game after his pitch count hits 80. Yesterday’s game supports that. It’s that simple.
Do you know what "well-supported" means?
How many actually pitches are we talking about here? 64 plate appearances? Now do you know what “small sample bias” means? The fanpost in not well reasoned, and you don’t understand baseball. Making decisions on approximately 12 inning of work. Hmm, yeah, that’s “well reasoned.”
Crap
I didn’t realize I didn’t understand baseball. Thanks! I will go read about it more.
I know what small samples are. No one said this post is definitive proof of anything. It’s pointing out a trend that is supported by evidence. I happen to buy it, but whatever, if you want to ignore it, you can. But to act like it’s just ranting nonsense makes you sound like a prick, which, based on your second reply, you clearly are.
It’s a small sample for sure, but it’s not tiny, and it makes some sense considering that he has looked worse after pitch 75-80, produced much worse results, and he’s 44 years old.
@bumpasaurus
No offense
(and I was more talking about the idea of pulling him yesterday than anything else) it really is tiny. It is 2 starts. There were several posts like this vis-a-vis Lester and the 5th inning 2 years ago.
It is true that Wake is old, and thus your logic has some teeth in general-old pitchers should have a quicker hook. However I do think they have had a quicker hook with him than others this year. There was only one time (our first game in TB this year) where I felt Francona left him in too long. Last night that would have been a mistake. Sure we might have exited that inning with no runs allowed. But it seemed as likely that Wake would have been fine in that inning (I mean-they really couldn’t hit anyting) and given the way we were hitting and the score, I think it would have been a mistake, 64 PAs or not.
Larger sample sizes:
Worth noting that I don’t see the same pattern in Tim’s 2010 splits, but it does show up in 2009 (OPS allowed by 25-pitch chunks: .677 pitches 1-25, .678 26-50, .770 51-75, .899 76-100). So it could be a blip this year, since last year didn’t show anything, but he showed the same pattern in 2009, and a much starker difference this year.
This is in no way a detailed statistical study, but I do think there’s something here.
@bumpasaurus
Still love this... seems to be the perfect combo.
Would love to see Aceves pick up a bunch of three inning saves this season… that 2 and 2/3s pitched the other night just seemed unfair.
http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/tim-wakefield-tries-to-get-line-drive-to-put-him-o,21031/
Pitchers get worse the more pitchs they throw in a game
Wow, who knew? I wonder if it’s the same principal that doesn’t allow me and my fat ass to run 40 miles every day, fatigue. Not exactly a mind blowing conclusion that after a certain point a pitchers OPS against will climb, I bet that just about every pitcher in baseball has the same telling stats.
However, last night while technically fitting into the pattern, doesn’t really fit the theory. Yes, he gave up that HR, but he was still pitching just as well to everyone else, the HR wasn’t caused by the fatigue that says Wake shouldn’t throw more than 75 pitches.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Lies, Damned lies and statistics...
That being said… I love the debate.
My 2cents worth… It was unrealistic to take him out of the game the against Chicago, he had a great game going! As for the Seattle game, it was 11-3 so there was plenty of wiggle room in that game. Had the game been 5-3 I don’t think Wake would’ve been in the game after the second single. I wonder if the splits look more reasonable if you disregard the Seattle game where the outcome of the game was already decided.
All that been said, numbers are the numbers and it is something that we can all watch going forward.
I think this is the point, essentially, that Buzzy is trying to make above.
While those two games “support” this theory from the author and Jake W’s perspective, the problem is you’re counting 4 ERs from one inning and 2 ER from another (adding 6 ER to the small sample of 12 innings total, not to mention a grand slam and a two run HR). Those two big innings skew the data, since it’s such a small sample size.
And, to your point, both innings made sense to let Wake go.
Wake has often had
“one bad inning” which costs him the W. Commentors on many sites, including this one, have complained for years about Tito not using a faster hook. This is the first theory I’ve seen that tries to explain it, and it seems to have merit and be worth more study. Modern stats often make bold claims and this is an area where perhaps it can offer some valuable information.
I suspected the numbers cited were badly inflated by his two bad starts after the ASB
So I ran the numbers without those two games (7/18 vs. the Orioles and 7/24 vs. the Mariners) to see how deep an impact these starts alone made on the figures. I also added the seven PAs at pitches 101+ for the season (0 H, 2 BB, 3 SO), as those are also relevant to the discussion. So for pitches 76+ on the season, other than those two games:
PA.. BB.. SO… OBPA… SLGA…. OPS
58.. 7….. 5….. .349…… .531…… .875
So the pattern holds (cf. the numbers above for pitches 51-75: .330 OBPA/.465 SLGA/.795 OPS) that says the aging Wakefield gets worse late in pitch counts, but the difference is more gradual and much less drastic (>.275’s difference in OPS). Of course those numbers treat those two bad games as outliers, yet we who follow Wakefield are on our toes waiting for them to happen at any time. But it is worth noting the circumstances of those two games. In the one he was trying to eat the 7th inning with an eight-run lead when he gave up a grand slam on his 100th pitch. In the other he was trying to get through the 5th having been given a 6-2 advantage when he gave up the lead on his 93rd pitch. In both cases he was left in a little longer in hopes of sparing the bullpen, and in both cases the game was managed effectively enough as both were won by the Sox despite Wakefield’s shortcomings.
In both of Wake’s starts since his two stinkers, he has been kept in the game in the 7th inning long enough to give up the lead. I expected it to happen both times and these numbers support my intuition. But on both occasions he was giving up only his third run of the night after a very well-pitched game. Francona, I suppose, was willing to bank on either Wakefield following through with a less than three-run outing (a not very good chance) or the bats carrying the team (a pretty good chance), and that seems to me a reasonable enough way to manage a struggling rotation that taxes the bullpen but which is supported by an historically good offense.*
*This assessment of last night’s game hangs on the fact, which Francona has demonstrated well enough for me, that the way to beat the Indians in late innings is with hard-throwing lefty relievers—even Franklin Morales and Randy Williams will do. (We saw what happened even to Bard for the second time in a row, though Papelbon seems to know what to do.) Hence it wasn’t the worst of plans after the sixth to try to use Wake vs. the bottom of the Indians’ order plus Williams starting with Kipnis to build a bridge to Paps to close the game. Either Wakefield would get three outs between Chisenhall, Kearns, Marson, and Carrera, or someone on this ridiculously good offense would step up and in three innings’ time produce one more RBI.
In the interest of trying to complete the picture
Here is some data I posted in another thread that referenced this discussion. A request was made to look at Wake’s data if you took away just two plate appearances – the grand slam and the 2-run HR and to see how his OPS vs pitch count compares to the average AL pitcher.
Here is the average AL pitcher, courtesy of Toe Nash:
OPS by pitch count:
1-25: .706
26-50: .710
51-75: .743
76-100: .729
Wakefield’s numbers follow, and since we may wonder how he compares to a knuckleballer as opposed to an ‘average’ pitcher I also include his career numbers.
Wake 2011 2011* Career
Pitch 1-25 .669(138) .669(138) .711(3931)
Pitch 26-50 .752(120) .752(120) .745(3519)
Pitch 51-75 .757(118) .757(118) .759(3117)
Pitch 76-100 1.148( 71) 1.021( 69) .801(2420)
Pitch 101+ .286( 7) .286( 7) .672( 727)
*The middle column removes just the GS and the HR. That drops his OPS by .127 points. Two pitches make a huge difference at these low sample sizes!
The number in (parenthesis) is the number of PAs backing up that number.
Obviously, your numbers show that if I took away those whole innings, instead of just the two PAs, then the OPS drops almost another .200 pts.
Really, the most apparent thing you can tell from all this is that the data set from 76-100 this year is ridiculously small (just 71!) and kinda useless for telling anything.
Even his other bins are still small, but at least they tend to conform with his career norms.
My suspicion would be that given time, his 76-100 bin would move towards .800ish.
Or … we should make him throw 100 pitches before the game starts and have him only throw in the 101+ bin!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Clearly, that is when he is his best!
This whole premise is, imho, sorta silly.
Wake is liable to blow up at any point in a game because that’s the nature of the knuckleball. he’s just as likely to blow up in the 2nd inning as he is in the 7th. It really isn’t about how tired his arm is. Its about whether the wind is blowing or how greasy his fingers are or what the humidity is. Or when the opposing team got off the plane the night before. Etc., etc.
The danger always exists, but I don’t think that danger is significantly different in the 75-100 pitch range and I think if we were to get a lot more data on this season it would regress to his career norms.
I don’t know if we’ll get a chance to get that much more data though. If wake gets about 7 more starts, that might only add up to 20 or so PAs in the 76-100 pitch count window. So that would still leave his sample size ridiculously low and not mediate out the effect of those few bad innings.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
thank you for being better with statistics than me
I think having Wakefield throw a hundred pitches in warmup is a good idea
I believe it was my request, so thank you very much!
If I could figure out where to mine all the data I’d have done it myself, but I suspected someone with more experience would find it quicker than I did. Thanks, also, to Steel Sox for dropping both innings from the data and showing it’s probably about what you’d expect from a pitcher late in a game (maybe a little higher than league averages).
Both of these support my expectations (and what Buzzy kept trying to say in this thread above), that in the small sample size those two ABs don’t “prove” the premise but actually have a huge impact in creating the end result of the premise: a high OPS for pitches 75-100.
Baseball-reference.com
Then you go to “SPLITS”. Gives you all kinds of crazy data.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Yeah, I've started playing here and there...
(Catching myself before I responded to Rogue about Ellsbury having put up his 2011 numbers in 2009, and seeing that… ummm… no, he didn’t.)
I’m just not as adept at it as some of the rest of you. So sometimes I’ll ask the question, and deeply appreciate someone else answering it with data that either confirms what I thought, or disproves it.
Again… thanks for those of you that continue to broaden my understanding of our Sox.
Oh, you and I are in the same boat.
I don’t dig too deep into the different stats too often. It’s not my style, but it’s good to know that I know where to find stuff if I need it.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
fangraphs.com
is another place loaded with stats.
Each site has its strengths.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Wakefield = 80 pitches
Anyone consider that after 80+ pitches the opposing team has gone through the lineup twice and has adjusted to seeing 70 mph pitches?
yeah but the numbers for his career don't really support that
if could be that now he’s tiring and not throwing it as effectively at this point after a lot of pitches, but it hasn’t looked that way through his career. The confusing part about a knuckleball isn’t the fact that it’s 70 mph
Very true.
Otherwise, everybody who could throw 70mph would be able to throw in the majors.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Flat and true.
Nice post. It’s true that his pitchers do tend to “go flat” at about that point (80 pitches/6 innings), and a 68mph flat knuckle ball (essentially a very slow change-up w/o the threat of a 90mph fastball coming) isn’t that hard to hit.
Wake is the man, a real blue-collar guy. He’d throw 15 innings if Tito left him out there. But you’re right, Tito needs to exercise more restraint.
I haven’t looked them up, but what are the numbers on Wake’s relief appearances throughout his career? It’d be interesting to see, if when coming in as relief, he needs a certain # of pitches to “warm up.” Obviously he doesn’t throw fast and put an immense strain on his arm, but it must take a certain # of warm-ups pitches to get that knuckle ball going right. We all remember that one relief pitch. I’m not focusing on that one, but rather his career in relief. It’s a finesse pitch and takes a certain touch. Most likely, like with other starters, it’s difficult to switch to “relief mode.”
Personally, I like Wake as a starter. I feel that within the first 20 pitches you know which Wake you have for the evening, and you can plan accordingly. That’s why it’s great to have sometime starters like Aceves in the pen. If it’s bad Wake, you bring in Aceves in the third. If it’s good Wake, you hope he hands the ball off to Bard.
Good post!

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