Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Kyle Weiland And Andrew Miller, Or, What To Do With The Sox Rotation

Starting pitcher Kyle Weiland of the Boston Red Sox delivers to a Baltimore Orioles batter during the first inning at Oriole Park at Camden Yards in Baltimore, Maryland.  (Photo by Rob Carr/Getty Images)

Jon Lester will be back Monday, leaving just Clay Buchholz on the disabled list. This means that Kyle Weiland will likely be optioned back to Pawtucket or moved to the bullpen, but with the recent struggles of Andrew Miller, that isn't exactly set in stone. The Red Sox will soon have a choice to make: should Weiland be moved back to Pawtucket or moved to the pen, or should Miller be sent back down to Pawtucket until he figures out how to throw strikes?

Star-divide

Weiland now has two MLB starts under his belt, and has given up nine runs in 10 innings to the Baltimore Orioles. He has struck out just four batters while walking five and hitting another two, mostly due to an inability to finish off his opponents when he gets them to two strikes. The samples are very limited, so this isn't any kind of prediction about Weiland's future, but the right-hander has a split-adjusted OPS+ of 162 (where 100 is average) when he gets hitters to two strikes.

This is due to Weiland's repertoire. He has multiple pitches to use -- a four-seam fastball, a mid-80s cutter, a curveball he likes to throw inside, and what seems to be an accidental slider when cutters don't quite cut -- but none of them can be considered a plus pitch. There are other pitchers who can say the same thing that are successful in the majors -- Cory Luebke comes to mind -- but Luebke has fantastic command that lets him get away with it. Weiland has not had even average command in the majors, and it has been something of a weak spot in the minors too, even with his recent dominance at Triple-A. 

Weiland has shown potential in his first two outings, even though the results have not been pretty. His fastball has a lot of life to it, and he understands what he needs to do to get hitters out... most of the time. He dances around the strike zone a bit too often, throwing pitches that he hopes hitters will offer at even though they can't do anything with them, but are in reality too obviously not strikes when they leave his hand. He strikes me as someone who could dominate in relief, but would be a fringe starter -- in relief, if his cutter isn't cutting, or his curveball isn't quite fooling hitters, he can always rear back and challenge a hitter with speed or paint the corners with fastballs as he has tried to do. Not as much needs to work in concert to succeed out of the pen as does in the rotation, and Weiland, with just an inning or two to pitch, could go all out in terms of velocity.

Boston's pen could use an arm like Weiland's, especially with Bobby Jenks failing to contribute anything of substance to the team this year. The question to ask is whether his presence in the pen is more important than having Miller figure out how to get back to where he was with Pawtucket in terms of attacking hitters and throwing strikes.

Miller's Red Sox career started out well enough, but in his last few starts, things have begun to unravel. He gave up seven runs two starts ago against a patient Rays team that just waited him out, and didn't strike a single hitter out for two consecutive starts. In one of those, he induced 13 grounders, but against the Rays and in yesterday's start against the Orioles, he had just nine total. If it's possible to scatter walks instead of hits, then Miller did just that yesterday, as he allowed six free passes but allowed just two hits. Was that a matter of stuff, or luck? Given he has just three whiffs in his last 13-1/3 starts, the answer leans heavily towards luck.

Miller does have great stuff, though, and has the ability to be much better than a back-end starter. The problem is --and he is aware of this, given his post-game quotes of late -- that he needs to do a better job of coming after hitters, and not letting them get into favorable counts. Miller isn't controlling his opponent's plate appearances like he was in his first few starts, and it's showing up in the all-important walk, strikeout, and groundball numbers. 

Should Boston keep him in the rotation to figure things out? It's a dangerous game, but I would have to say yes. I'm not convinced he has anything left to learn at Pawtucket, and it's going to take being beat up in the majors to get him to throw strikes more often (assuming anything can do that). Plus, unless a deal is made for another pitcher, Weiland, as discussed above, isn't necessarily any better in this role at the moment than Miller. 

Miller in the rotation and Weiland in the bullpen gives Boston their best possible team while Buchholz is still on the disabled list. Maybe a question will arise once Buchholz returns in regards to Miller versus Tim Wakefield for the fifth spot, but for now, it should be Weiland moving out of the rotation when Lester returns to action.

Comment 36 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Around SB Nation

2012 Houston Astros Series Preview

Apr 2012 from True Blue LA - 375 comments

Not So Fast With Daniel Bard

Apr 2012 from Fake Teams - 0 comments

Comments

Display:

The Rotation

is a disaster waiting to happen. We are now 8 up in the wild card race, so we have time to wait to see if Buchholz comes back, but if we want to beat the Phillies we need another starter.

by flasoxfan on Jul 21, 2011 12:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Do they?

First off, that’s assuming Philly makes the World Series (or Boston makes it). It’s a little early for that. Second, no one uses five starters in the playoffs, and the Phillies are not a good offensive team.

by Marc Normandin on Jul 21, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who is the fourth starter?

Is there anyone on the Sox right now you would be comfortable handing the ball to for a Game 4 start in either the ALCS or the WS?

The Phillies are the only team I would rate as a favorite over us (and I doubt they are going to stand pat). Of course the same problem with respect to a fourth starter exists in the ALCS.

by flasoxfan on Jul 21, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well the fourth starter would be Lackey

provided Buchholz is back healthy. I get the feeling that people wouldn’t be comfortable with that.

by dja9783 on Jul 21, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lackey is fine

I know we don’t like Lackey, but he is a perfectly serviceable fourth starter in the playoffs, especially when our front three are so strong.

If it turns out Buch won’t be coming back, of course, then everything changes. In that case, we should make a trade.

by Jake_W on Jul 21, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lackey

versus either Roy Oswalt or Cole Hammels. Hmmmm.

by flasoxfan on Jul 21, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would be concerned about Hammels

I honestly think our lineup would destroy Oswalt.

by dja9783 on Jul 21, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, come on

Unless we trade our entire farm system, we are not going to get anyone into our rotation as a fourth starter who matches up ideally with the Philadelphia’s fourth starter.

You seem pretty fixated on the Phillies. We lead them in run differential by like 40 runs. Our team is really good. Anything can happen in the playoffs, but we have a stronger overall team, regardless of our fourth starter.

by Jake_W on Jul 21, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Phillies

have a better record than we do, and given RS and RA they project to a better record than we do.

I am fixated them a little bit because:
1. Playoff baseball tends to see pitchers dominate
2. The prospect of beating either Lee or Halliday twice seems daunting.
3. Your rotation often depends on what happens in preceeding series (so your fourth starter often starts twice in either the ALCS or the WS).
4. The RS are very, very good. This is a year where a Championshjp seems within reach.

Really I want a competent starter for a fourth starter – that’s all. Right now the RS don’t have one.

Yes, I am little ahead of myself – we haven’t won anything yet. But I guarantee Theo is thinking about this.

by flasoxfan on Jul 21, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Theo is thinking about how to beat the Phillies? I don't think so.

I’m sure the front office is concentrating on making deals that will improve the product on the field without crippling the organization long term. They’re not worried about matching up with any National League team yet.

Follow me on Twitter! It'll be super awesome fun! @mattymatty2000

by Matthew Kory on Jul 21, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course Theo is thinking about it.

He is thinking about how his starting rotation would look in the playoffs, and I would dare say is looking at the likely contending teams from both the AL and NL and how they match up. With the pitching matchups with the Phils being worst case scenario.

That doesn’t mean he’s fixated on the Phillies, of course, but I’m sure he’s looking how the Sox match up against the contenders.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Jul 21, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously??

You don’t think Theo is thinking about a fourth starter for the playoffs? That he isn’t thinking about the team he is likely to have to beat?

Man I think you are just dead wrong about that.

by flasoxfan on Jul 21, 2011 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

People do however use 5 starters to make the playoffs

and I’m not particularly confident in our 5.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Jul 21, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I say keep Miller in the rotation

as he did manage to settle down and pitch pretty well the last three innings yesterday. Not that I am completely comfortable with him in the rotation right now, but he is our best option right now when you think about it. Plus, when Miller is on, he is very hard to hit. So it is best to see if he can improve as he continues to face AL lineups.

Weiland should be sent down. I know we can use him in the bullpen but he needs some more work down in AAA. And even though it is just two starts, like most, I am encouraged by the potential he did show at times when he was pitching. But he isn’t ready for the majors quite yet in my opinion.

by dja9783 on Jul 21, 2011 12:28 PM EDT reply actions  

"... when Miller is on, he is very hard to hit."

Because he throws very few pitches in the strike zone.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jul 21, 2011 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha

kinda set myself up for that one.

by dja9783 on Jul 21, 2011 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would not mind Weiland in the bullpen

but I know Ben thought it was too early for him to be called up. So sent down would not bother me that much. I don’t really want Randy Williams in the bullpen though.

As for Miller, we should keep him in the rotation. He does have the tendency to walk guys but I think he just needs to settle down at the MLB level. He has already proven that he could control the walks for the most part when he was in Pawtucket as the season went by.

He has been getting very lucky but he produces alot of ground balls and double plays when he needs it.

This means we’ll have Beckett, Lester, Lackey, Wake, Miller. When Buchholz comes back and Doubront starts to tear up Pawtucket is beyond me.

"Remember, it's not over until the fat lady drops one."

by n0va on Jul 21, 2011 12:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Why would you not want Randy Williams in the bullpen? Did you see something that I didn't see?

And yes I am kidding about Randy Williams.

There has been some good news about Buchholz lately. I think he threw from 120’ twice and felt no pain and will be throwing off of a mound pretty soon. If he can get back by mid-August that would be huge.

I am still not sold on Felix. I would not be upset if we moved him either (provided the deal makes sense).

by dja9783 on Jul 21, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Almost got me :/

Yeah I heard about Buchholz so if and when he comes back, we’ll have one spot in the rotation with question marks as the season goes on. I can see Doubront becoming trade bait but I also see him taking Wake’s spot sooner or later. If that happens, I don’t think we’ll see Miller next year and possibly a trade/FA next year.

"Remember, it's not over until the fat lady drops one."

by n0va on Jul 21, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Our best case scenario:

1 – Lester comes back healthy for the rest of the year. (very likely)
2- Buchholz comes back healthy for the rest of the year. (very possible, but not assured)
3 – Weiland gets sent back to AAA. (very likely)
4 – Miller gets traded to a lesser team that wants a SP/prospect. With his gaudy “5-1 record in games he starts” stat, his trade value will not get higher than now.
5 – Jenks gets traded to a team who values his past success. (wishful thinking, but I did say best case scenario)
5 – Sox trade for a better-than-Miller SP to take the #4/#5 spot (e.g. Jackson, Fister).
6 – Wake floats as #5/long relief.

by dsharp on Jul 21, 2011 12:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Keep Miller and Weiland to Pawtucket

Weiland still needs to grooming but as of right now he is the best AAA pitcher we have so I don’t want to move him to the bullpen. There are alot of relief pitchers on the trading block this year so I would rather trade for bullpen then move Weiland to the bullpen.

by drabidea on Jul 21, 2011 1:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Well

Weiland gives me the impression of being a guy who is going to be markedly better in Triple-A than the majors, due to his stuff. He can get away with a lot more there than in the majors. There is still learning to be done, so maybe he turns into a starter, but it’s less likely than a dominating career in relief.

by Marc Normandin on Jul 21, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

he could be the next Bowden but you gotta give him a longer shot to prove himself just like they did with Bowden before sticking him in the bullpen for good.

by drabidea on Jul 21, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bullpen work is not exactly a lifelong sentence

I don’t think David Price is complaining too much about the half season he had to come out of the pen nor do I think it affected negatively.

by BigRedDog42 on Jul 21, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

wild card

so fed up of sox mentality of settling for wild card…does anyone really think it doesn’t matter to start with texas & also play NY, rather than only seeing one of those & starting with a weak central team? BIG difference

by TheChopper on Jul 21, 2011 1:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Probably FLASOXFAN's comment about being 8 up in the WC race

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Jul 21, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course winning the division would be ideal

But a think flasoxfan’s point was that there is a cushion to see how/when Buccholz will come back to evaluate our rotation.

by Greg Knopping on Jul 21, 2011 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Since Miller is out of options

I’m not sure how sending him back to Pawtucket would be possible. They could try, but the difference between him and Weiland in the rotation, or him and Randy Williams in the pen, surely isn’t worth it.

by blumj on Jul 21, 2011 1:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Funky contract clause

If they try to pass Miller through waivers and another team claims him, his $3 million option for next season automatically vests. So, if no other team is willing to pay him that money, he could pass through waivers and go to Pawtucket.

Still, considering he has the higher ceiling and more experience, it seems obvious to keep him on the roster until he definitively plays himself off it.

by BigNachos on Jul 21, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Contracts more important than performance...

Lackey’s monster deal make him unmovable to anywhere…(although we all have told him several times where he can go)
Miller sounds like he is in a place where he can’t get back to AAA without being poached. Hearing long term, Miller may be a reliever.
Weiland can be sent back easily and therefore that is the move that will be made if/when Buchholz is ready.

Beckett, Lester, Buchholz, Lackey will be the four playoff starters. I can imagine a scenario in which Wake gets the 4th spot come the end of the season but that would require him to pitch significantly better than he has been recently.

by Chris Sanford on Jul 21, 2011 2:30 PM EDT reply actions  

I wouldn't be totally against Lackey starting a game 4

Not ideal, but he’s certainly capable of having good games. Only problem is, you don’t know which John Lackey you’re going to get.

I was encouraged by the fact that he settled down nicely against the Rays after the first inning recently. At times, he really seems to get frustrated, so it was encouraging to see him settle down.

If Lackey can have about a 4.4-4.8 ERA over his last 10-12 starts and average 6.1 or 6.2 innings per start, get his strikeout numbers back to about 6.8-6.9/9 innings and keep his WHIP below 1.4 I think I could trust him. He just needs to get more consistent.

But I suppose this is all a pipe dream. Please disregard my unabashed optimism. Personally, I don’t see us getting a better option than Lackey at the trade deadline.

by Greg Knopping on Jul 21, 2011 9:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Sure we could

Doug Fister, Erik Bedard, Ryan Dempster, Edwin Jackson, possibly Jeremy Guthrie, Wandy Rodriguez, John Danks, Kevin Slowey… there’s a list of at least serviceable #4-5 starters available at the deadline.

I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Jul 22, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

I can't see the O's trading within their division

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Jul 22, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Over the Monster, an SB Nation community that delivers news and analysis while encouraging discussion regarding everything Boston Red Sox. OTM was founded Feb. 22, 2005.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Einstein_small
OTM Fantasy: Week 7
Einstein_small
OTM Fantasy: Week 6

Recent FanPosts

010_small
OTM Simpson Analogues
Pedroialazers2_small
The possibility of trading Kevin Youkilis
Moar_bacon_small
PSA vs. OTM Fantasy Smackdown Update
Small
The Curious Case of Daniel Nava
Rsz_ashleyspade_small
Top Red Sox Prospects
Einstein_small
OTM Fantasy: Week 5
Small
Mariano Rivera and TS Elliot and maybe Robert Frost
Small
Rivera has torn ACL

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Managers

Red_seat_small Ben Buchanan

Twitter_eb_2_small Marc Normandin

Authors

Lowrie__1234972975_0178-1_small lone1c

Jddrew_small gizmosandy

Pedoria1_small Mattsullivan

Baghead-1_small Matthew Kory

Photo__2__small BrendanOToole

Cee_small Cee Angi