Upcoming #s to Retire
by Wicklow on Jul 19, 2011 9:28 AM EDT
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PrintThis discussion started as part of another discussion, but it deserves to be its own.
Who do you believe will have their # retired by the Sox over the next twenty years or so (past players through current players)?
Currently,
The Red Sox policy on retiring uniform numbers is based on the following criteria:
-- Election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame
-- At least 10 years played with the Red Sox
I don't know if both these rules will hold up. There used to be a third rule stating that the player had to retire with the team, but they changed that in order to retire Fisk's #27. Rules change. There is no knowing how many players from the amazing 2004-current run will make the HOF (probably not many), so they may have to include a bit of leeway.
Within the next 20 years...
I believe the Sox will retire Pedro (45), Ortiz (34), and Tek (33), with only Pedro actually making the Baseball HOF.
In my opinion, Evans and Boggs also deserve it, but it’s almost too late for Evans, considering they let Manny wear #24, and Boggs is already in the Red Sox Hall of Fame (2005 – they would have retired his # at the same time). How big a smack to the face is it that Boggs wanted to go into the Baseball HOF with a Devil Rays hat due to financial compensation (well-known rumor)? That must really irk the Sox. As well as his playing for the Yankees. That alone should be a lifetime disqualification for having your # retired.
Schilling will make the Red Sox HOF, but I don’t see them retiring his #. He only played for the team for four seasons. The minimum for consideration is ten. He’s well short. However, he very well may make the Baseball HOF, and if he does, they'll retire his #.
Manny is an entirely enigmatic case. I have no idea if the team will honor him or disown him for life. Right now, leaning toward the latter.
No Johnny Damon? No Johnny Damon! And I’d bet my life if Damon gets into the Baseball HOF he goes in with a Yankees hat.
The young guys (Lester, Youkilis, Pedroia) are too young to say yes or no to. They'll all make interesting cases if they stay with team to finish out their careers.
Thoughts?
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i think ur being way too kind
of ortiz, pedro and tek, i think none of them will have their numbers retired, and if they do it will only be tek.
I don't see how Pedro DOESN'T get his number retired.
What are the circumstances in which he WOULDN’T???
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
by Bloggy on Jul 19, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
it's unfathomable
they’re just waiting for him to officially retire and get into the HOF. Not only was he a big part of 2004, a hall of famer, a beacon of hope in the crappy years, but he was also probably the most dominating pitcher in baseball through the steroid era. I’m sure they already have the “45” plaque made up and waiting.
Agreed. Pedro is a gimmee.
Is there really any doubt about Pedro? Which criteria does he miss on?
We discussed the merits of Tek previously, and the big miss will be the HOF criteria, but I believe the exception was made for Pesky (though, for decades of service to the club), so if Tek continues to contribute to the Sox after finishing as a player, I think it might happen someday.
Big Papi is an interesting one to me… assume he gets to the 10 years played mark, and retires as a member of the Sox… he’s at 9 now, and a two year deal with an option might get him there (including retiring with the Sox, I mean). As for the HOF, his numbers compare somewhat favorably to Edgar Martinez (who finished 8th in voting this year), in 15 seasons to 18, edging him in HRs/RBIs and behind him in AVG/OBP. Two or three more seasons plus the rest of 2011, he could get to 400 HRs/1500 RBIs. Too soft for a DH? Might be enough? If he gets in the HOF, his number’s retired automatically… otherwise, not so sure.
(Researching DHs online a little… surprised to see Big Papi listed on one site as having a “positive steroid test”… umm, well… not exactly. We have no idea what he tested positive for, if he did at all, or what they were testing for… may not have been steroids, but wonder whether that hint of guilt will be enough to keep a borderline candidate out if first ballot guys like Bonds, Clemens and McGwire can’t get in…)
As for Schilling… as much as he missed the 10 year window, I think if he makes the HOF (and another interesting debate on his career numbers could ensue), the fact that he played for two World Series champions and put the clause for the bonus “when” (not if) they won a WS title or more… plus the blood sock… I just think if he makes the HOF, we make the exception for him.
Now… for Sean O… let’s get a little more violence going in the debate… Where does Josh Beckett stand? His contract goes through 2014, so potentially 9 years with the club and unlikely, I think, to last a 10th. He’s got one World Series ring, potentially gets a Cy Young at some point and hopefully at least one more World Series ring. Does he get into the HOF? Does he retire with the Sox? Does his number get retired?
Damon, I believe, has suggested he’d like a Royals hat if he goes to the Hall, but hard to imagine they pick that for him (now that he cannot pick himself). Why the Royals? Will he make the HOF? And if he does… who’s hat will they put on him? Isn’t it between the Sox and Yankees?
As for the guys too young to think about seriously, I just want to say that I hope we see a reversal of the mercenary trends of free agency and the whims to trade aging veterans away for future prospects, and we see Jon Lester and Dustin Pedroia finish their illustrious careers in Boston, with the numbers that justify the HOF inductions, and multiple World Series titles to share.
Yes, I’d like to see Youk there as well, but I think he’s got enough value to someone at first base that he’ll want to move on when we decide he’s no longer the answer at third, meaning I don’t think he finishes his career in Boston, nor makes it quite to the 10 year mark. I’d love to see him have a HOF career as well, and who knows… maybe with a couple World Series rings for the Sox, his number would make it up there too.
Anyone want to compete with me for the longest OTM comment ever? Is there a character/word count limit to these, or can I just go on indefinitely?
I probably hold the record, but it may have just been broken.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
As for Beckett- he’s not a hall of famer. Well, if he pitches the rest of his contract and maybe another 4-5 years at the level he’s pitching right now, maybe. Otherwise, he’s been a very good pitcher, but never consistently dominating year to year.
I would bet that Damon goes in as a Royal if he goes in (which I think he probably will after an extended period). Partly because he was a Royal longer than anything else and partly because putting him in as either a Red Sox or Yankee is too divisive about his career.
I've seen much longer
can’t remember the thread, but it was this insane, nonsensical rant. And no, it wasn’t by me.
Pedro is the only lock of that group
Depending on what happens the next couple of years I could see and argument for Papi, and the same for Tek as it stands now, but I don’t think they’ll do it.
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This completely depends on how rosy the 04 team will be viewed
Neither Pedro nor Ortiz made in 10 years, though at least Pedro was an all time great. So what you begin talking about is their connection with the fans and the fact that they won the World Series. As important as that 04 series was, I don’t think it should just be an open invitation to everyone on it.
If you’re talking about these guys, I’d put out another name then. Why not Luis Tiant? Connecting with the fans in a way that perhaps only Pedro can compare to, Tiant also almost single handedly won a World Series for the Red Sox against one of the greatest teams of all time. He probably would have except it was already ridiculous for him to pitch 3 games, nonetheless 4. Is he so much less deserving than the three mentioned above because a couple of bounces didn’t go his way and the team didn’t win?
It’s not like I would be against any of the people getting their number retired but if you fudge the criteria for some, then there will be a lot more with similar cases.
Actually, Tiant wouldn't surprise me in the future
in part because of the Pesky exception- Tiant is a similar situation where today, he still does so much with and for the Sox that he would make a whole ton of sense.
Met him on the Monster for my aunt's 50th birthday.
They were filming some documentary about him, and he threw out the first pitch with some crowd shots… by accident, he is my aunt’s favorite Red Sox player of all time and we got her photo taken with him, and some autographs.
Her two sons grew up playing wiffle ball with her mimicking Tiant’s pitching motion, so while I never saw him play for the Sox (and they are more than ten years younger than me and grew up in Colorado), they are both huge fans of his as well.
I certainly think there’s a case for Tiant as well, and I’m a little surprised (with little knowledge of his career numbers) to see that he missed the HOF induction.
One of my favorite Fenway moments
was opening day this year. Outside on Yawkey, one of the sausage stands is called the Tiant grill. Was hanging out on Yawkey and went to grab some food. As I was getting to the front of the line, I realized that Tiant was just sitting there, chatting with fans and signing autographs. Pretty awesome.
He does this a lot of games, and it's pretty awesome
still have my weatherbeaten, worn, run-down 1975 reproduction cap with his signature on the brim.
He's my aunt's favorite player, and so I got bonus points for him being there.
I’d put the whole thing together per her request (she paid for it, though)… I tried to take credit for having him throw out the opening pitch, but she knows that was just dumb luck on my part…
Papi has 9 with the Sox today, and hard to imagine he isn't back in 2012. I think he gets 10.
Possible, I’d agree… but I think they do a two year deal with an option for the third, and he’s still with the team next year. Maybe they go with Youkilis at DH in 2012, and let Papi walk, but as unforgiving as Theo’s front office approach has been, not convinced they do that with Big Papi.
Plus… as much as we don’t really think Youk is at third base in 2012, it’s not like Navarro or Lowrie has shown they can take over for him next year, have they? I think Youk plays there at least one more season, and with Papi’s 2011 #s (and 2010, and his connection to our fans), we bring him back for 2012.
As for the 2004 team, as much as there were plenty of key contributors… I have a framed, autographed photo of The Steal and it’s probably my favorite Red Sox play of all time.
Howeer, the discussion would really center around Pedro, Schilling, Tek, Big Papi, Manny (destroyed his chances in 2008, I think, even before the steroids) and probably Johnny Damon (destroyed by playing for the Yankees, which I believe should be the rule – if it isn’t why Boggs isn’t up there today). Who else from that team would you argue personified the team more than those 6? Wakefield? So, really… we’re back to discussing the same four, not expanding to all of the 2004 World Series roster.
Pedro (gimmee – though I’m surprised he wasn’t with us 10 years… just 7 of the most dominant by any pitcher in the steroid era), Big Papi (depending on his induction, I think… or maybe winning a third World Series ring with the Sox), Schilling (depending on his induction, I think) and Tek, which would require years of service to the club (though, again… what if he wins a third ring with Papi in 2011?)…
Not an open invitation
Just one to the guy who well, we all know what Papi did against the Yankees, he went into full beast mode. That series is going down in Red Sox lore forever, can’t we put a couple of the most deserving numbers up on the wall?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
This man changed the franchise. Single-battedly.
Everything else like career numbers, years spent with the Sox, HOF, whatever…it just doesn’t matter, not to me anyway. He deserves to own the number, in my humble opinion.
It takes great work and thinking to keep from doing work.
by tito (eight and oh) on Jul 19, 2011 10:43 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Likewise
even if Tek doesn’t have his number retired, I will mercilessly boo and hiss at the next Sox player to wear 33. That is Jason’s number forever, nobody else is allowed anywhere near it.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Jul 19, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Well
I guess that means Wicklow did a damn good job here.
33, 34, and 45 it is.
15 from any of the youngins on the current roster if I’m a bettin’ man.
It takes great work and thinking to keep from doing work.
by tito (eight and oh) on Jul 19, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes!
Thank you. I had completely forgotten. It would be more of a lifetime achievement award (and grand thank you for service), but he very well could deserve to have his # retired, especially if he wins 9 more games to get him to 193 (the all-time Red Sox record!). It would be a feel-good day in Fenway.
#49.
Yes, and while I dismissed him in the discussion above about 2004 World Series heroes...
I’m not dismissing the idea of retiring his #… (Can he pass Clemens for all-time wins in a Sox uniform, and does that merit some consideration?), just dismissing his consideration as being 2004 hero status related.
For me, Wakefield’s not due consideration for 2004 alone (though, his Game 3 innings eating is largely why we had a bullpen to use at all in Game 4 of the ALCS), but more for what he’s done with the Sox in his career in Boston.
Frankly, I think he shoud be on the World Series roster in 2011 when we get there, and if we continue to streak through the Series, he should be sent out in Game 4, in Fenway and given every opportunity (with our offense slugging Mr. Halladay around) to go out with the final W in the Sox third World Series sweep. Maybe a pipe dream, but I’d love to see it happen.
Pedro, yes
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My take on it
Pedro is a definite. He is a first ballot hall of famer and his 1999-2002 seasons are arguably the greatest a starter has put up. Plus, baseball people know how dominate Pedro was and he is an easy choice.
Papi is most likely in as well. The guy is an ambassador for baseball, he is the Shaq for the Latin players, and he was a key part to the 2004 run which means something to Hall of Fame voters. Nobody has tied him to the steroids accusation so I see him in easy as well.
Personally, I believe Tim Wakefield will get in by the Veterans bc he is the last great knuckleballer and that type of thing is unique and valued by former players.
For the Red Sox I expect Pedro, Papi definitely having their numbers retired at Fenway, its too good of a Public Relations campaign not too. I also expect Tek and Wake to get their numbers retired as well.
I know, the Red Sox have rules about retiring numbers… fine you have made your point but this is not the US Constitution, no 2/3 vote. Theo and the Owners can make exceptions and I think they will on Tek and Wake. Its a feel good hit of the summer. People will love it and in 20 years nobody will ever care. 2004 was a momentus occasion for the Red Sox organization and I just find it hard to believe that just Pedro will get his number retired at Fenway.
I always say that the Hall of Fame should be more inclusive, a guy only has 270 wins v. 300, he still was awesome and deserves the respect. Numbers are not everything, but I know baseball is plagued by numbers and stats. Hall of Fame should be about players, managers, owners, writers, and umpires, not stats.
Thats how I feel about it.
I'm now completely sold on Wake.
Could become the winning-est pitcher in Sox history, was easily the best knuckler of the last two decades, and did everything from closing games, to starting game one of the World Series for the Sox. On the business side of things, he has always excepted one year contracts with club options…and on top of all of that who wants to wear #49 anyway? It’s all yours Wake if you ask me.
It takes great work and thinking to keep from doing work.
by tito (eight and oh) on Jul 19, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Better yet
fractions. Anthony Ranaudo is the first person to wear his exact ERA on his jersey each year of his career. This drives the Boston equipment managers insane.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Jul 20, 2011 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the criteria is silly.
Especially given they’ve tailored it to fit their whims. No idea why people get so hung up over something so silly… retired numbers are basically for the fans, anyway.
I’d definitely retire Wake, Ortiz, Pedro & Tek. Scarily, Pedroia, Youk and Lester are at least on the path, too. We’ve had a great run the last decade-15 years and its only right that it results in retired numbers.
How spoiled are those of us following the team (the city's teams) the last 15 years?
I’m in my mid-30s, so I had my share of downs (1986 is the biggest, of course)…
For those in their 20s? Ridiculous. They don’t even know what the misery was like… yes, they had 2003, but it was absolved in 2004 instead of 18 years after my first taste… (a little too young in ’78 and ’75 to count either of them).
While this may be true of those of you who only follow Boston sports.
I’ve been a Lions fan longer than i’ve been a Red Sox fan. It’s one thing to have good teams and just miss every year. It’s completely different to be terrible and have absolutely no hope of recovery year after year after year.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Jul 28, 2011 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I first started following boston sport in 1990
So I had 13 years of absolute misery. Plus the destruction of the Garden.
The Red Sox would not have won in '04
If Big Papi was not on the team, and probably not if Pedro and Tek weren’t there either. They were all essential pieces of that team, and Pedro was huge for many years. Tek was always there during some tough times in the 90’s as well
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