Just No. Everyone Stop It.
by PatrickSull on Jul 14, 2011 9:28 AM EDT
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PrintI haven't had a chance to write lately but I needed to chime in with something quickly. I've heard a lot of Adrian Gonzalez MVP talk. The latest came this morning in a Nick Cafardo column, where he mixes in this little beauty (my bold).
Nice first half, Ortiz, Jacoby Ellsbury, AL first-half MVP Adrian Gonzalez, Daniel Bard, Jon Lester, Josh Beckett, and Jonathan Papelbon.
Sometimes I think Boston, and especially its sports culture, gets a bad rap for being extraordinarily provincial. Then I read something like the excerpt above and think "how could anyone ever suggest differently?" Someone in the very same division as the Red Sox is putting up numbers we haven't seen since Barry Bonds was playing. Let's just do a quick Gonzalez - Jose Bautista comp.
fWAR: Bautista 6.6, Gonzalez 4.8
bWAR: Bautista 6.6, Gonzalez 4.9
wOBA: Bautista .487, Gonzalez .429
Triple Slash: Bautista .334/.468/.702, Gonzalez .354/.414/.591
wRC+: Bautista 215, Gonzalez 172
And on and on and on. The gulf here goes way beyond the painfully idiotic "MVP's can only come from playoff teams" debate, too. Gonzalez is having an MVP-caliber season, sure, but to suggest he's the MVP is to ignore the player who is currently far and away baseball's best.
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I love Gonzo. I am so glad we have Gonzo. I am so excited that we are going to have Gonzo for a long, long time.
Jose Bautista is a @#$%ing beast and is having a legendary season.
Nick Cafardo gets paid to write about sports. Maybe he needs to go take a refresher course.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
I posted about this in my handicap awards.
Joe Buck and Tim Mccarver said without a doubt he’s the MVP and I started screaming at the television.
- Jose Bautista, Toronto Blue Jays 3B/OF
.334 BA/ .468 OBP/.702 SLG/.487 wOBA/6.6 WAR
All I can say is WOW. Jose Bautista proved me wrong. Before the season, I thought this guy was a fluke who took steroids and the system didn’t detect them. I don’t believe this at all now. Joey Bats is one of my favorite players in the league right now. He brings power and average to the table. He’s also a superstar utility man. He’s already hit 31 home runs and it’s the All-Star break! If you’re counting, that’s 85 home runs in 1.5 seasons. And it’s not like he’s just hitting home runs. Look at his OBP and wOBA. They’re ridiculously outstanding for a guy with 31 home runs. What made him such a better player this year is his 19.7 BB% and his 14.4 K%. He rose in the walk department and is striking out less. His WAR last year was 6.9 and he should easily surpass this number. If he continues on this pace, Bautista will have a WAR around 10 or even 11. Here are some names that haven’t had an 11 WAR season: Albert Pujols and Hank Aaron. So if Bautista could do this for a few more years, he could be a borderline Hall of Famer. Isn’t that nuts for a guy who started to become great to have this chance? Obvious choice for the MVP so far.
- Adrian Gonzalez, Boston Red Sox 1B
.354 BA/.414 OBP/.516 SLG/.429 wOBA/4.8 WAR
What can you say about this guy? One of the sweetest swings in baseball, and he can hit for power and average. When he moved from Petco to Fenway, you could tell he was going to have one of his better seasons. He’s on pace to pass his 2009 and 2010 WAR totals. Plus his BA, OBP, SLG, and wOBA are at their highest of his career. These numbers might fall down to Earth as the toll of a 162-game season wears on him, but Gonzo’s a great hitter in a great hitter’s park. I wouldn’t expect much of a drop.
Please post a link to these "Handicap Awards", Evil Yankee Sympathizer
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
I'll only post if you ask.
Don’t want to spam.
It’s actually a reflection on the season. The awards post is below the team summaries.
http://joessportsblog.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/reflecting-back-on-the-mlb-season/
I would be happy if Gonzalez won the MVP this year
Solely because I picked him to win it in a pre-season predictions piece at Baseball Prospectus, but otherwise, it’s Bautista’s award to lose at this point of the year. I would rather the BBWAA makes the correct choice, and, right now, that wouldn’t be Gonzalez.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
Sabremetrics
Not a basis for arguments
/2cents
by The Burning Scheyer Jersey on Jul 14, 2011 9:44 AM EDT reply actions
I'm just going to stand out of the way now.
That’s not gonna be well-received on this website.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
What would you suggest as the basis for an argument, then?
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Jul 14, 2011 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Just the usual...
Home Run Competition Results, RBIs, Game Right Way Playedness, Grit, Hustle, Determination, National Origin, GPA, Baseball Body, Fantasy Points, Intelligent Design Theory, Dredd Scott v. Sandford, Swimsuit Competition, Results of Senior Class President Election.
"Laser show. So relax."
Francona is to McDonald and Jenks as Infant is to Plastic Bags and Matches
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 14, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly what I was thinking of...
… waiting for the grainy home video of Gonzalez fighting imaginary Darth Vader with a mop handle in the garage.
"Laser show. So relax."
Francona is to McDonald and Jenks as Infant is to Plastic Bags and Matches
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 14, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
See below
But in a nutshell, I take the eyeball test over the obscure numbers 7 days a week and twice on Sundays.
by The Burning Scheyer Jersey on Jul 14, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Vacuous blanket statements
Not a basis for arguments.
/2cents
by Eric Simon on Jul 14, 2011 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
Seriously, though
I would like to hear what would be the basis of your arguments, were you to make one.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Jul 14, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
The Burning Scheyer Jersey....
Sabermetric Troll?
The Burning Scheyer Jersey....
Bill Conlin?
"Laser show. So relax."
Francona is to McDonald and Jenks as Infant is to Plastic Bags and Matches
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 14, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Reply here
Though this will more be an overall reply to all of the above, since I don’t feel like going piece-by-piece with each one.
1. FWIW, I wouldn’t have a problem with Bautista being MVP. So far this season, I see it has a close race between him and Gonzo, with both absolutely destroying it so far, and guys like Miggy and Konerko not too fare behind for 3rd. Gun to my head, I would probably go with Bautista in a pinch, but not because of the numbers above. Gonzo has a higher average, but Bauts’ general production looks a tick higher, possibly because of being in a bit weaker lineup.
2. My sparknotes opinion of Sabremetrics has been this: They’re largely a load of crap.
3. My more fleshed-out but still abbreviated opinion of Sabre and it’s assorted goodies is this: They’re all completely made up equations, created by a bunch of nerds. They’re slogan is that the old stats that the British guy made up (Note: I’m largely going off my reading of Moneyball for this part) were inaccurate and subjective and largely meaningless. In some instances this was true (errors) but in other instances all they did was make up a bunch of obscure crap to try and measure finite data that by and large wasn’t there. All sabremetrics has truly accomplished is occasionally bring an obscure player who wasn’t that great and try and give his team some sort of validation for using him.
If I wasn’t pressed for time I would go further, whether it’s my gripes with “Moneyball” or the always popular JD Drew debate (I suddenly think I’m gonna need to write a whole FP on the topic) but for the sake of leaving you guys without anything to chew on, enjoy.
by The Burning Scheyer Jersey on Jul 14, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
That's just a critique of sabremetrics.
What should we be referring to when arguing about who should be an MVP?
I declare (and no, I don’t really) that Robinson Cano is the first-half MVP. he has a sweet swing, looks good in those pinstripes, and seems to get on well with his dad. He passes the eyeball test.
How is this proposition best countered? How am I to be persuaded of the error of my ways?
"Laser show. So relax."
Francona is to McDonald and Jenks as Infant is to Plastic Bags and Matches
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 14, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
That's wonderful that you have an opinion
And say sabermetrics are a “load of crap.” However, unless you actually back up your argument and show why they are a load of crap, your opinion doesn’t matter. I can say I think calculus is garbage or it takes no skill to play cricket, but I know nothing about either, so no one is obligated to take that seriously or give a shit. Everything you’ve written reads off as an emotional reaction without any real reason for it.
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Jul 14, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I have no idea what the hell bWAR, fWAR,qWAR and xyzWAR are,
but Bautista is definitely better in the main categories (OBP, SLG, HR, OPS, wOBA). These are all pretty simple (maybe with the exception of wOBA) to calculate. If you just focus on that, then there’s pretty much no argument.
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jul 14, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Only if they are consistently very different
which they are not.
A stat should be a stat.
You shouldn’t have to know which complicated set of mathematics are being used. Get together, people.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Yeah, Adrian's 2.26 ERA
Proves how good a batter he is.
Lackey’s .145 batting average on the mound, though, that’s rough.
this
If the stat is supposed to be an all encompassing ’be all-end all" (which is pretty much WAR) there should be a universal basis for calculating it.
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jul 14, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
The more "end all and be all"
the harder it is to do. The uncertaintly in measuring defense being the biggest issue. It does not make WAR dumb and the consistency of the WARs is comforting and not a real issue. We have to accept that there are hard things to measure and thus things like WAR are flawed.
Well then, there has to be a consistency by those who use WAR to state
whether they are using Baseball-Reference WAR (bWAR) or Fangraphs WAR (fWAR). You can’t just say “WAR”.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Yes, indeed, and I'm aware of that.
But “WAR” gets thrown around these parts without the “f” or “b” quite a bit.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Right
And everyone agrees that’s stupid. Unfortunately, a lot of people throw around these stats without really knowing much about them and therefore without realizing there is another WAR.
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Jul 14, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I always felt like WAR almost always equals fWAR
fangraphs is just more popular among stat nerds ;)
))<>((
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 14, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
then the stat is pretty much a failure.
I understand that defense is hard to measure, and WAR is using flawed defensive metrics. So why is there even WAR if it doesn’t work right? If it’s not reliable, then why use it?
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jul 14, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
fWAR has a 0.82 r squared coefficient
With historical win totals. That is why it is used.
In case you never took a statistics class:
Basically, to have a theoretical “win” total calculated using statistics correlate with actual wins at 0.82 r squared is DAMN good.
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Jul 14, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
because it is flawed does not mean it is a “failure.” It is actually quite useful.
what are it's uses?
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jul 14, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
?
team WAR is a decent correlator with team wins (team WAR+42). Thus it is logical to take individual WAR as a crude but reasonable estimator of a players worth to his team.
If it's crude, then why don't they give me a
range or range of error? Ethier’s UZR has fluctuated like crazy from last year to this year. The fact that it gives me one number and uses a fluctuating defensive metric is a turnoff.
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jul 14, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Fluctuation
is not necessarily a sign of innacuracy; batting averages fluctuate a ton too but that does not worry you, does it? I mean AGonz BA is like 70 points higher this year then usual…oh, I guess we should not pay attention to it.
Over large data sets UZR is pretty stable (say 2000 innings). Thus I find it a fair thing to look at. You can argue it is not accurate, but then again if this is so why is WAR such a good correlator with wins when there otherwise would be such a big noise component in WAR from UZR? I personally find it useful enough to get an estimator from. Crude but far less so than the “eye test.” Further, that’s where other “WARs” and defensive metrics come into play. If they all paint the same picture, and so does my observation, then I find much greater trust in my “numerical” valuation of the player than any one alone.
that's a good point,
but Gonzalez switched parks and leagues and has a huge BABIP.My only problem is I said above. I’m no expert, but isn’t the coefficient supposed to be as close to 1.0 as possible? If they could somehow produce the number and then produce numbers on either side of that number for a range. I’d actually be a fan if they did that. As you said, it’s a crude estimator. I just hate how some people use WAR as the be all end all for comparing players.
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jul 14, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
Don’t overread what WAR is saying. Fractional “wins” take with a grain or three of salt.
As for the fluctuations-your babip point really is the whole point. Maybe Gonzo has been lucky to a degree-but that does not mean his 350 ba has not been valuable. In it’s crudest sense Ethier’s poor UZR is a reflection he has gotten to fewer balls-maybe that is not at all his fault but it has contributed to less wins for his team. Sure you would like correlation coefficients of one, but that is not possible. Given all it is trying to do, WAR is pretty good.
I have a bit of an issue with just saying
“oh, he has a high/low BABIP.” Yes, it’s true that a player can’t really control where the defense goes, but if he’s consistently smacking line drives or weak grounders to short, that’s going to affect BABIP. Now, I’m not saying someone can maintain a .400 BABIP, but we could reasonably assume that someone with a .200 BABIP over an entire year might very well just suck, especially if he has a high GB%. Likewise, we could reasonably assume that someone with a higher than average LD% could support a .330 BABIP throughout their career.
DFA The Tampa Bay Rays
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Fear the Roar.
by TheLoneDavid on Jul 14, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, BABIP does regress to a career average, not a league average.
For hitters, that is.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 14, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, but likewise
if a pitcher consistently throws pitches that hitters can hit line drives on, he’s also going to have a higher BABIP than his peers. He may still be a good pitcher, but he could, in theory have a BABIP of 1.000.
DFA The Tampa Bay Rays
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Fear the Roar.
by TheLoneDavid on Jul 14, 2011 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
my point is
things like batting average fluctuate a ton but:
a)people don’t doubt the utility of BA.
b)regardless of the reason it does not make the player with the outlier-high BA less valuable w/r to his team with regard to his contributions.
Nobody who understands WAR
Uses it as a “be all, end all.” We’re well aware of its limitations. However, it does a great job of predicting a player’s contributions to team wins.
What you don’t like, my friend, is people talking out of their asses. I’m with you there.
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Jul 14, 2011 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
my favorite thing about WAR is people saying
“(such and such player) was worth $15 million last year according to WAR!!!”
So WAR is the best of the worst stats.
I just don’t see the need for it.
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jul 14, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
so
tell me-how do you estimate how much a player’s play has contributed to the team’s record?
Do I need to estimate that?
I can get a feel for how good a player is by using every offensive stat and the eye test on defense. Why do I need one number telling me who is better than who?
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jul 14, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
so you can do *relative* rankings this way?
Somehow I find it hard to believe that this is so accurate. I mean I can see, for example, Youkilis isn’t very good at 3rd but hits well. But I can’t really value this is a good way. looking at WAR (both types-take an average if you like) to me is better, or at least useful along with “eye tests.”
yes
My way isn’t more accurate, but it’s not intended to be. WAR tries to pinpoint to the 0.1, which isn’t 100% accurate but may be “pretty” accurate. If I can help it, I’d rather not deal with one figure that isn’t 100% accurate.
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jul 14, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
There have been a number of attempts to calculate
A player’s value in terms of runs/wins added. WAR is just a common abbreviation. fWAR (calculated at FanGraphs) and rWAR (at baseball-reference, rWAR is the correct styling as opposed to bWAR) aim to do the same thing but take different routes. What about VORP (value over replacement player)? VORP was a precursor to WAR and tries to answer the same thing. In essence, VORP is rWAR is fWAR. They are just different routes to answer the same question.
It’s not like there is a governed body of sabermetricians all in agreement with each other. It’s just an umbrella term for looking at new ways to evaluate players. rWAR and fWAR are different stats attempting to answer the same question in slightly different methods. It’s not like there is a board or council or president of sabermetrics that has the final say to legitimize statistics. The fact of the matter is, we are still learning what is the best way to objectively evaluate players.
For instance: there is a growing movement (of which I participate) to do away with X/9IP (included in FIP and xFIP) stats and substitute them with X/PA stats, i.e. K/PA as opposed to K/9. The reason? Using per 9IP doesn’t eliminate defense as BABIP influences the number of outs made, which X/9IP really just means X/27 outs recorded. However, not all sabermetricians agree with this. There is no consensus, just people trying to answer questions.
People like to turn us into a bogeyman, but we aren’t really a “we,” just a bunch of “I’s” that really like baseball and have calculators.
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Jul 14, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
As to your point about X/9 vs X/PA
which I agree about-Beckett this year and last is a clear example. And it may be more than just defense. Probably largely by his own doing his # of batters faces during the course of 27 outs was significantly larger. Thus, while it looks like his K numbers are down from last year infact they are up per the number of hitters faced by a clear and significant amount.
Exactly.
2010: .201 K/PA, 8.18 K/9, .078 BB/PA, .317 BB/9, .338 BABIP
2011: .219 K/PA, 7.62 K/9, .077 BB/PA, 2.68 BB/9, .225 BABIP
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Jul 14, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm no Sabrematrician
But the fact is the “eye-ball test” doesn’t make a lot of sense because you can’t watch every game. And that’s just basic logic.
I don’t swear by the new stats and I don’t completely dismiss the old stats. But they do have some validity to them in many cases and to dismiss them simply because they involve a couple extra pushes of the calculator buttons is arrogant and foolish.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Y'know, if we're goin by the eyeball test
then those two guys in the MLB FanCave are the only two people allowed to vote for the MVP.
DFA The Tampa Bay Rays
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Fear the Roar.
by TheLoneDavid on Jul 14, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
EXCELLENT POINT.
Seriously. It is.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
It's funny.
To people who even have a basic (I’m talking like high school level) understanding of statistics, most of sabermetrics is pretty simple. I mean, the work they’re doing on the cutting edge can get pretty complicated, and there’s a lot of grunt work put into it, but the actual statistical theory is incredibly simple and basic. 90% of the stuff they do is what any undergrad with stata/SAS/excel and a good stats class could do on their own.
But to people who haven’t taken the time to learn about them they always seem like magical numbers and formulas coming out of nowhere. The coefficients for wOBA weren’t made up on the spot. Neither is the justification for using FIP over ERA. It’s really basic statistics, and all the work is easy to find either on the internet or in a handful of cheap books. And if you aren’t going to put in the work to even read what they’ve done, then you don’t deserve to criticize them.
by ThePanda on Jul 14, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
At one point, I knew stats...
… but it involved ancient stone tools. So, maybe Vlad Guerrero?
"Laser show. So relax."
Francona is to McDonald and Jenks as Infant is to Plastic Bags and Matches
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 15, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not just nerds using these numbers; it's BASEBALL TEAMS
Hey The Burning Scheyer Jersey, you know who has used those “made up equations created by a bunch of nerds” to help the Red Sox win two World Series and stay competitive every year? Theo Epstein.
Maybe Bill James is a nerd
But the Red Sox seem to his creation of sabremetrics pretty seriously considering they employ him as a Senior Advisor on Baseball Operations.
by The Name is Dalton on Jul 14, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Whereas the original baseball statistics
Came down from the heavens above, in the form of math untouched by the hands of mortals
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Jul 14, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
1. In the beginning, God created the earn-ed run
2. Now the earn-ed run was formless and a counting statistic, darkness to those who would compare by rate, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the pitcher’s mound.
3. And God said, “Let there be nine innings,” and there were nine innings.
4. And God saw that nine innings was a good length for a game, and he separated the first half of the inning from the second half of the inning.
5. God called the first half “the top of the inning,” and the second half “the bottom of the inning.” And there were three quick outs, followed by two flyouts, a base hit and a walk, and then a strikeout – the first inning.
6. And God said, “Let there be a method to calculate earn-ed runs allowed on a rate basis, dividing the total number of earn-ed runs allowed by total innings pitched and multiplying by nine.”
7. And it was so.
8. God called the new number “Earn-ed Run Average.” And through two innings, both starters had ERAs of 0.00.
9. And God turned His attention to the batters, and said, “Let a hit be ordained as a ball placed in play in fair territory and the batter reaches First Base without being called Out. Or without the defense making an Error. Or as long as it is not a Fielder’s Choice. Also the batter can run beyond First Base because, I don’t know, it would be too hard to Halt at First.” And it was so.
10. God called the one-base hit a “single,” the two-base hit a “double,” and the three-base hit a “triple.” And He called the four-base hit a “quadruple,” but realized that sounded stupid, and instead deemed it a “home run.” And at the top of the third, with the bases loaded, a ball was hit out of the Heavenly Stadium – the first four runs.
11. Then God said, “Let the batter’s ability be measured in a way that ignores walks, luck, the opposing defense, and differences between ballpark. Let the hit be the True Arbiter of a batter’s Quality.” And it was so.
12. The new Batting Average statistic measured each batter’s skill in producing the Base Hit. And God saw that it was good, and thus ordained that it be the One True Measure of a Man.
Amen.
by Tarrsk on Jul 14, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
@#$%ing rec'd.
“earn-ed”? Genius.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
For the record
The first Base Ball Game ended after six innings because the Lord, in His words, felt “effing tired and need[ed] a nap.” It was officially recorded as a rain delay.
(Tune in next time to find out how God created the RBI!)
That's where we got the 7th inning stretch.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Angelic Choir: Taaaaaaake me out to the baaaaaaallllll gaaaaaaaaame, taaaaaaaaake me out to crooooooooowwwwwwwd-
God: For the love of Me, SHUT UP. I am trying to get some shut-eye here.
That was added in the later Apocrypha, and is only adopted by particular sects
It was first laid forth in the Revelation of Neil Diamond and followed primarily by the Fenway Faithful, although a few other minor denominations have since taken it up as well, among them the Papist’s University of Pittsburgh and the Branch Davidsonians.
[applauds]
Follow me on Twitter! It'll be super awesome fun! @mattymatty2000
by Matthew Kory on Jul 14, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
The equations are made up, yes.
And then tested to see how well they correspond to, y’know, things that matter.
It’s why OBP supplanted average. Because OBP is a better indicator of how many runs a team not only has already scored but also is more likely to score. No, not just that they THINK it’s a better indicator, but that they’ve empirically proved it using the methods prescribed by the actual mathematics field of statistics—the one they teach in high schools, colleges, and is not really up for argument.
wOBA, for instance, specifically determines the values of each individual event—single, double, triple, etc.—in scoring a run. It does this using very large sample sizes, and as a result is usually quite accurate in describing a team’s run-scoring ability, as well as the individual’s contribution therein. This is the number which tells us that Bautista has been a much bigger contributor to the Blue Jays than Gonzalez to the Red Sox. And, hell, it’s probably something that your eyeball test would tell you if you got to watch every game from both teams.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Jul 14, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Educate yourself please.
There are facts in the rational world that allow one to differentiate “made up equations” for the truth. Here is a fact:
Please take all the data in baseball history for the total number of runs a team scores during a season. Then take all of that data and correlate it with team wOBA (a “made up” stat in your mind, and one in which Bautista leads the league by a WIDE margin). Calculate the correlation coefficient of team runs verses team wOBA, and team batting average (the only INDIVIDUAL stat that AGonz is beating Bautista in; RBIs don’t count because of course team RBIs is basically the same as team runs, and the goal here is to predict runs based on what individual players control. Individual players do not control RBI opportunities). The result is clear-team wOBA is strongly correlated with team runs, team batting average is not so (indeed-Baltimore and KC are two examples where that is clear).
This is proof (not debatable in any rational way) that wOBA, which is a state that takes into account power and on base ability, is a far superior measure of offensive potency than any single player traditional stat. By wOBA there can be no argument that Bautista is having a better year then Gonzalez. I would like to see you refute this (you can’t, because it is a fact).
Enjoy.
by Buzzy on Jul 14, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Players do not control
RBI opportunities, but to a large degree they control what they do with these opportunities. For eXample, Gonzo rakes with RISP and runners in scoring position while Papi, while presented with similar opportunities, is far less effective. In that sense RBI’s are singularly important and contribute legitimately to Gonzo’s MVP candidacy.
by GerryT on Jul 14, 2011 6:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Eh
I can see someone taking it into account for an MVP candidacy but there’s not much indication that they do really control what they do with said opportunities outside of as a function of their overall offensive abilities (strikeout rate perhaps being of unusual importance given 3rd base, <2 outs situations)
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by Ben Buchanan on Jul 14, 2011 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah it's not necessarily a repeatable skill
but it does kind of make sense if we’re talking their actual value in the past, whether it’s a function of luck or a lot of chances, or whatever.
In order for Gonzalaez to succeed with RISP
He needs to get a pitch to hit. If the pitcher works around him and makes good pitches, no hit.
Sabermetrics.
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Jul 14, 2011 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
MVP's play on good teams
At least that’s been the standard for so many years. The AL Cy Young has reversed such trends in the last couple of years, so there’s hope for Jose Bautista, even in a cellar-dwelling team. If his numbers are vastly superior to A-Gon’s then he’ll get it.
Agreed
In past years the MVP HAD to come from a playoff bound team and the Cy Young HAD to have wins. The Cy Young has changed in the past couple of years to not care about the awful stat of wins.
If the MVP is going to stop caring about what team it is on, this will be the year. It is crazy to think that the MVP has to come from a winning team. One player, no matter how good, can not determine the fate of the whole team over the course of a season.
That makes him pretty @#$%ing valuable, I'd say.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
The implied full name of the award is...
The Most Valuable In Not Making Our Club the Baltimore Orioles Player. It’s like Rhode Island and Providence Plantations.
"Laser show. So relax."
Francona is to McDonald and Jenks as Infant is to Plastic Bags and Matches
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 14, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Ticket sales
television ratings, merchandising, (inter)national exposure, potential for future MLB success. None of which is irrelevant.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
You're opening up a whole bunch of new metrics for consideration
Is Jeter 2nd on your list?
Bottom line:
Without Bautista, the Jays are (arguably) the 5th best team in the East, not the 4th.
Without Gonzo, the Sox are (with less argument) the third best team in the East, not the 1st.
Look, it’s close. But, at the end of the day, 1st to 3rd is a big difference, the difference between playoffs and not. 4th to 5th, who cares.
So
it is Bautista’s fault that he plays on the Jays. Makes sense. Maybe players should just be informed before the season the are not going to be eligible for awards…
This. (For @#$%'s sake)
The MVP is equated to “the league’s best player”. Not just by me, but in popular vernacular. “So and so was awarded the MVP in 19-diggity-two as the year’s best player.” That has absolutely nothing to do with what team he plays on. Who gives a fig what place his team landed on. Like Joey Bats can make John MacDonald hit .293.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
I think the confusion is in the name - MVP
Should be called MBP – “Majors Best Player”
“Valuable” leaves too much room for interpretation
Yep, it says "Valuable."
5th to 4th. Not that valuable, which was Bloggy’s initial point. “If it wasn’t for Joey Bats, they’d be the Orioles.”
So? they are still the Blue Jays with him.
and we are 2 wins better with him that Gonzo
so what is your point? He is on the Jays-that is not his fault. His value is his value and he would help us win our division more than Gonzo would. In fact in that case even more so because we would use Youk at first who is as good as Gonzo there, while improving our D at 3rd. So he would be worth more than 2 wins in a hlf season. That has nothing to do with the fate of playing on an average team.
Just as Bautista has no control over who plays with him
He also has no control over the other teams in his division. It’s not Bautista’s fault that:
A) He can’t control who the other players on his team is, and
B) The three teams above his in the standing have the three of the four best records in the American League.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
This is the crux of the issue, no?
There are people who believe that “value” is “value to your team.” It’s a team sport, only the standings matter at the end of the day, and his “value to his team” has made them only slightly more relevant.
You and Buzzy are throwing out very valid arguments, that he could make the Red Sox better, that it’s not his fault that his team isn’t better, that it’s not his fault he plays in the ALEast.
I personally don’t care much, even if it was the actual end-of-the-year MVP discussion, I wouldn’t care.
But I think there is validity to the other argument. You, apparently, don’t agree. Fair enough.
They are 7 games up on the Orioles.
Are you saying they would still be up 7 games if Darnell MacDonald was playing right? They’d probably still be playing around .500 ball, yeah?
Just because the team isn’t (bloody likely) making the playoffs doesn’t mean that no one has value to that team.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Not according to Ricky Bobby!
Oh, wait…
"Laser show. So relax."
Francona is to McDonald and Jenks as Infant is to Plastic Bags and Matches
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 14, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
If yer not first, yer last.
(tm Ricky Bobby Inc.)
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Head and Shoulders
This is starting to turn into a Joe Mauer commercial
ask the voters that
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jul 14, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
One other thing I like about Bautista
Is that he seems to have at times an absolute gun of an arm over at third base. Gonzo is above the tops in 1B defensive stats (whatever worth those have) so I’m not saying he is bad defensively. It just seems I’ve seen a lot of highlights and throws made by Bautista that are bullets over to first base.
But yeah, offense wise I think Bautista has amazing numbers, and would probably have even more HRs if he didn’t play on the Blue Jays and wasn’t walked as much as he is. If you want to take the title literally, I think he is the most valuable player to his team. Gonzo has been awesome, but we’ve had other guys who have absolutely raked at times too. Moreso than the Jays have.
by The Name is Dalton on Jul 14, 2011 11:09 AM EDT reply actions
I think he's better in the OF
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jul 14, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Probably
I don’t get a chance to watch him other than some highlights and Sox games so I don’t really have a good idea of how he is with the glove at 3B.
by The Name is Dalton on Jul 14, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
UZR
actually has him above average at 3B and below in any outfield position.
not for his career
3B: -22.0
RF:-3.0
LF:-2.7
Supposedly UZR has some SSS problems, so one year or 1/2 of a year doesn’t mean much.
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jul 14, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
UZR has bias problems
So a larger sample size is just compounding bias, not fixing the SSS problems.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Jul 14, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
fixed- UZR
Supposedly UZR has some SSS problems, so one year or 1/2 year doesn’t mean much.
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jul 14, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Not true
there is random bias and systematic bias. A larger sample helps remove random bias but not systematic bias. The qestion which I do not know is if the systematic bias is UZR is so large that UZR is inherently not an accurate measure of defense. If so, then it hardly matters. If it is to some degree, the the larger the sample the better even if there is a systematic bias.
The bias
Is in the BIS data used in UZR and the way it is collected. Garbage in, garbage out, as they say. UZR could work fine if it had better data, but it doesn’t, so for now, it’s barely worth using.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Jul 14, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
That is your opinion
and it may be true (although there are reasons to believe that it cannot be completely true) but it misses the point: unless you can prove it is complete garbage (and if it is-why does team UZR have a correlation with runs allowed that is above statistical noise?) then there will be small sample bias on top of systematic bias. The bias issue is distinct from the utility of the metric unless it is completely useless.
I thought UZR was the one where
They have people looking at film of every play and registering whether or not the player should have made the play? but I could be wrong
No
there are a host of issues-what a player’s zone is, what type of ball is hit in the zone (lazy fly vs hard line drive, etc). To me the first is a bigger issue than the second because ober a large sample batted ball profile will normalize. Marc’s point that the very data collected to be used is not of high quality. That of course cannot be completely true, otherwise UZR it self would be random or much more random than it is for both the Adam Dunns and Derek Jeters of the world as well as the Carl Crawford, Adrian Beltres and Brett Gardners of the world.
A rebuttal:
Yeah, but I really like Adrian Gonzalez.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
He DOES play for the Red Sox.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
To be honest-what is also stupid
is that Agonz has been no more valuable to the Sox than Ellsbury or Pedroia in the first half. I love the guy (aside from the 20 GIDPs) but come on….
SportingNews just came in the mail,
and they have Gonzalez as the 1st half MVP.
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
MVP/CY Young, etc
Have never liked them. I guess I understand the intrinsic need for “awards”, but trying to pick one player/pitcher who was the best or most-valuable? Pretty pointless (unless you are into writing in clauses to contracts).
Moral: They are both really good players, and I’m just glad one is wearing the Red Sox uniform
Yes, Bautista has the numbers
and should be the MVP assuming everything stays the same. But we all know how these things work; if the numbers, the basic stats, not the advanced stats however valid, stay close between the two, and Toronto is a below .500 team in 4th place and Adrian leads the Red Sox to a pennant, many writers will defer to Adrian.
But they're really not that close
Adrian has just over half the HRs that Joey has. He’s got him in BA and RBI, but Jose has a .702 slugging percentage. There are guys in the league who don’t have a .702 OPS!
DFA The Tampa Bay Rays
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Fear the Roar.
by TheLoneDavid on Jul 14, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
In some ways
You could ONLY look at RBIs, runs, and defense as a measure of “value”. After all, if a player hits a double and doesn’t score or drive any runs, who cares, right? Runs and RBIs are tangible benefits to a team.
You just turned Sabrementrics on its head, man.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
yet they are more "team" stats
seeing as you have to have a guy on base to get an RBI
I like Total Bases (or TB/PA if you want to make it equal)
I guess it's like
Bautista may get on base more and get more bases, but in terms of the value he gives his team, it’s less than Gonzalez because a lot of his effort is wasted by their badness.
It’s kind of dumb, but if you’re going to make it “value” and not “best player”, like you said above, Gonzo kind of has been more valuable to his team than Joey Bats.
Or you could see it that Bautista provides the value, and his team squanders it.
But the value is still provided.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
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by Ben Buchanan on Jul 14, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Right
I’m certainly not suggesting using RBIs or runs as PREDICTIVE statistics.
But in evaluating the nebulous concept of “value” – hey, why not?
Becase if you hit Bautista
in a lineup with 2 guys ahead of him with 370-400 OBPs plus the quality of the rest of the team’s OBP skill and his RBIs suddenly become more than Gonzos.
Yeah but...he didn't
And ergo he was less valuable than Gonzo.
It’s not his fault, and it’s why it should be the “Best Ballplayer” award and not “most valuable” player, but…there is some wiggle room.
I do think Joey Bats should win the MVP because I prefer to interpret the MVP as the “best ballplayer” award, but so long as it’s so undefined, it’s possible to see it another way.
This is also why I don’t like using fip or xfip for the Cy Young. Yeah, the guy might have been unlucky or let down by his defense, but he pitched how he pitched. He should be evaluated on the actual results, not the “this should have happened” results.
The distinction
is that FIP AND xFIP are both based on things controlled by the individual pitcher regardless of luck; RBIs not.
Except FIP and xFIP
Are affected by luck. Higher BABIP = more batters faced to acquire 27 outs = higher K/9, BB/9, and HR/9.
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Jul 14, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
but there is a good discussion about this vis-a-vis Beckett here:
http://www.baseballanalytics.org/baseball-analytics-blog/2011/6/17/beckett-and-dips.html
Sometimes a high BABIP is luck, and sometimes it is not. A major thrust these days (and I believe in the future) is going to be devoted to this.
Oops
I was responding to the wrong thing here. Sure in general FIP/xFIP are partly luck controlled as well as defense controlled. I worded this poorly. I mean to say that regardless of bad luck or not, a FIP/xFIP is just made up of what you can (mostly) control.
Oh, I agree
About BABIP not always being black and white. I mean, there’s obviously luck in it, but (especially in smaller samples) it does tell us something.
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Jul 14, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to make sure Bats is on a contending team so he will be properly awarded.
A purely selfless act, for the good of the game. Except maybe, Lackey and DMac for Bats, so there won’t be any problem with talented players languishing on out of contention teams. Again, just for the good of the game.
I'll argue
That while Bautista is having an amazing year, one of the best in recent memory…
That Gonzo is worthy of MVP status.
That said, I think the people who vote will be split on these two, and it could be a really close race. It’s hard to ignore what both men do.
The Red Sox suck, and I am the dirt that was sucked in, I am a dirty.
I dont care who of these 2 wins the MVP Award
as long as these 2 guys continue to crush the ball, because i drafted both in Fantasy :)
))<>((
by German Red Sox Fan on Jul 14, 2011 3:05 PM EDT reply actions
I know that personally,
Bautista’s stats are so far out of the world my brain has problems processing just how nuts they are. They just go in one ear and fail to register.
"We Believe" - Rudy Fernandez
Anyway I have to say this:
I KNOW Bautista will be the deserving MVP.
But if Gonzalez get it because the awards are often jokes not reflecting reality, I probably won’t complain as much as I should.
"We Believe" - Rudy Fernandez
I'm no sabermetrics nut...
Are there stats that reflect situational hitting?
For example, is Bautista finding a lot of his success in 10-2 ballgames where there is relatively no pressure to perform? Is Gonzalez bringing runners in with extra base hits during tight 1 run games in the 7th inning?
The total of such numbers would certainly be more valuable to me than any HR total or slugging percentage. The value of individual statistics should never out-weight the value of timely hitting or defense that directly leads to wins on a consistence basis. Pressure is a very real thing, and for Gonzalez to put up even comparable numbers to the gaudy Bautista in the pressure cooker that is Boston (passionate fans, pennant race, contract, media, etc, etc, etc) deserves more credit than it’s receiving in this thread in my opinion.
It takes great work and thinking to keep from doing work.
by tito (eight and oh) on Jul 14, 2011 4:10 PM EDT reply actions
Read
the article that plen links to above. It shows that while Gonzo has been awesome in pressure situations, Bautista has been significantly better in more high leverage situations.
Was going to say the same thing.
Great article.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Similar to my thoughts. Is a win a win?
I also look at the team results as the key.
Assuming the situations are the same for the end of the year discussion, will Gonzo’s at bats in the heat of a pennant race, boston vs. NYY, be more valuable than Bautista’s at bats against KC as Toronto storms towards win #78?
Effectively, that’s what we are saying. Both are having incredible years. Bonus points to the guy doing it under the most intense contextual pressure.
Given the celebrations that go on for a walk-off win
regardless of place in the standings or point in the year, I would argue that teams always strive to win and that a win is always important. So if a player helps his .500 squad achieve a dozen more wins, then it is the same as if another player helps his playoff-bound team achieve a dozen more wins.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Not to mention...
they are all just trying to feed their kids
:0
I'm sure you tried to make some sort of point there.
Didn’t work.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
But Bautista plays in more situations with his team's W or L
on the line because they are worse (more close games) and because he has less help around him.
The whole discussion is flawed. Has Gonzo been so much more valuable to the Sox even than Ellsbury or Pedroia in the first half?
The whole discussion is flawed because of this:
Only one of those is valid — the team performance — and an argument can be made that Bautista’s advantage on a singular player level is so vast that any disparity between the Red Sox and Blue Jays is negated.
That’s correct, the disparity is so vast that the point is moot. The comparison isn’t so close that what the team is doing is relevant.
It's all in the title
it’s too broad, which is where the confusion stems from. Before anyone votes, baseball should explain exactly what MVP is supposed to mean.
Hell, I could make a pretty convincing case that Ellsbury is the American League’s most valuable player because of all that he’s doing for only $2.4 million. That’s value!
Even without contract $$
you can make the case that Ellsbury is MVP.
but that case ends when you mention Granderson
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jul 14, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel...
… that Michael Kay has mentioned Granderson quite enough, thank you.
"Laser show. So relax."
Francona is to McDonald and Jenks as Infant is to Plastic Bags and Matches
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 14, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Ellsbury
has been as good or better than Granderson…and he is not hitting 270-a fact that would negate Granderson in the eyes of the “traditional” MVP voters (it has only happened 2 times that someone who hit under 280 was voted MVP-both times rather unusual cases-and not in 40+ years).
Granderson has a .570-or-so slugging.
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by Ben Buchanan on Jul 14, 2011 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Not relevant
for the historical MVP profile-which fits Ells better in fact.
But what about the long ball, going back to 1990 I count 4 MVPs with less than 24 HRs
Pedey, Ichiro, Larkin and Pendleton. So in that sense, Granderson fits the mold better even if the category is less restrictive (4 in 20 years compared to just 2 for the other category).
If I’m voting by the tradition method (Ave, HR, RBI, hype, etc) I’m probably going to go with Grandy if he hits 50 HRs, and not really care what his average is (over Ellsbury that is, Jose Bautista will probably stomp both of them out).
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
It is the across the board skill the voters look for.
As you said there have been 4 players since 1990 with less than 24 HRs (Larkin’s stat-line is a good comparable to Els-who IS on pace for 20 HRs), however there have only ever been 2 player who hit under 280 who have been MVPs: Bench (1970) and Killebrew (1969). In those 2 cases we have a catcher and a guy who lead the leage in HRs-both in more run suppressing eras then even now. Granderson will not lead the leage in HRs and may not even lead his team. He is not a catcher and not playing in 1969. If the year goes like it does now he has no chance. The voters traditionally really use 280 as a “skill bar.”
Well… he very well may end up leading the league in HRs. It isn’t likely but he was right there near the top in the first half. Past results suggest it won’t happen but current results suggest it isn’t out of the realm of possibility.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Sure it is.
There aren’t really many WAR folks in the MVP voting camps. The two sides tend to be super-traditional (AVG/RBI/HR) and new traditional (AVG/OBP/SLG)
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by Ben Buchanan on Jul 14, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
See above
voters essentially do not consider sub 280 hitters. Never ever. They do consider 300, 20HR high steal guys (Larkin, Ichiro, Pedroia, Henderson…)
I think you're speaking too much for the voters intentions without knowing them.
Do they not consider them BECAUSE they hit lower than .280 or because there were other people who hit above .280 who had more stellar seasons by measure of what they vote on? Were they picking players who were worse in the other categories (HR, SB, RBI, etc) but had a better BA?
If Albert Pujols in one of his MVP years hit .278 with 46 HRs, a .410 OBP and .600 SLG with 145 RBI would he have been passed over for Player B who hit .325 with 34 HR, a .375 OBP, .455 SLG and 125 RBI just because Pujols hit less than .280?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
it is one of those stupid "lines in the sand"
than is always discussed by sports writers, as in “Mike Schmidt had a great season and lead the league in HRs but he hit 255 so Dale Murphy will get it” (circa 1983). Thus it is out there and history seems to be consistent with it. I guess I am not even saying that Granderson wouldn’t deserve it, or that he wont get it, but just that Ellsbury’s projected line correlates with past winners more than Granderson’s.
It's been fairly well discussed
thAt Gonzales has had a strong influence in Papi’s rebound as a great hitter. I wonder if he has had similar influence on Ells, Reddick, Lowrie, (wish I could say JD), Salty,Tek?’
If even a little bit true, this is an area of “added value” which needs to be considered for the award. Has Joey’s work ethic, skills, etc. similarly rubbed off on his team mates? The MVP topic could get very esoteric this year in determining value due to the many variables.
by GerryT on Jul 14, 2011 10:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think probably even Gonzalez' impact on Papi
is mostly a media creation. I think they’ve probably talked about hitting a bit, but I doubt anything that drastic is happening as a result of Gonzalez. I’m pretty sure the credit goes pretty fully to Papi.
Actually
I wouldn’t be surprised if Gonzo has had a very positive impact on Papi’s hitting. He credits much of his earlier success to discussions with Manny, and now with his discussions with Adrian. It seems to me that Ortiz is a guy who thrives when he’s able to “talk shop” with someone.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
though if it weren't for other players already discussed,
a center fielder hitting .270 with 46 home runs and 27 steals (what he’s on pace for) is a guy that might get that kind of exception. There just aren’t that many center fielders who hit bombs like that.
Bautista's ankle just "exploded"
according to the Jays’s announcer, so this entire conversation could be moot.
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
by Tessie's Dad on Jul 14, 2011 8:38 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
OT: I never noticed your signature before. It's fucking fantastic.
DFA The Tampa Bay Rays
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Fear the Roar.
by TheLoneDavid on Jul 14, 2011 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks!
I just changed it over the break.
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
by Tessie's Dad on Jul 14, 2011 8:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Mine actually was a shirt here for a while.
I was supposed to get a free one for suggesting it, but Randy never sent it to me :(
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Jul 14, 2011 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
It is a great signature-
here is a funny fact: many now believe that Gehrig didn’t actually have ALS…so Gerhig didn’t have “Lou Gehrig’s syndrome” as ALS is sometimes called.
"Twisted right ankle"
“day to day” says the Jays public address.
"What's so special about Lou Gehrig? Shouldn't EVERY Yankee have a disease named after him?"
by Tessie's Dad on Jul 14, 2011 8:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Exploded.
That sounds very over the top, and very very painful.
I want Gonzo to win, but not on the technicality that Bautista’s ankle exploded mid season.
The Red Sox suck, and I am the dirt that was sucked in, I am a dirty.
by outofleftfield on Jul 14, 2011 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Did he hurt it?
Or was it a Street Fighter-style exploding fire kick? Because win-win.*
—————
* – kidding, not happy that Bautista is hurt.
"Laser show. So relax."
Francona is to McDonald and Jenks as Infant is to Plastic Bags and Matches
by nuthinboutnuthin on Jul 15, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
in order to accept his mvp award
bautista should have to pass a P.E.D. test.
But seriously, like it or not gonzo would win an mvp vote based on the first half. He leads the league in hits, rbi’s. and hes propelling his team to the top of the division. Thats all it takes. If it were voted on by real stat analysts certainly bautista would be the guy. But its voted on by media circus clowns.
Are you trying to suggest that Bautista doesn't take PED tests on a regular basis just like every other player in the league?
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Jul 15, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
obviously not
becuz everybody is on teh ROIDS Berkman, Teix, Grandy Man and all of them!!!1!1
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jul 16, 2011 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
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