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Theo's Best: Trades: Number Two

You may recall back before the most recent Ice Age, we started a series here at OTM called Theo's Best Trades. Then we had that whole thousand years of darkness, pestilence, and flying grizzly bears of death thing. You remember. But, good news, the series is back! Over the next week the next few articles in the series should pop up, assuming I don't go back and re-write the first three before finishing the last three, adding overly snazzy special effects, deleted scenes and extraneous, borderline racist characters in attempt to get you to read them again.

In case you missed the first three parts to the series they can be found here (five, four, and three). I recommend reading them first if you haven't already because without that context you just won't understand the depth and symbolism involved when the butler tells Police Chief Johnson to go eff himself.

Enough of that. Theo Epstein's second best trade, after the jump.

Star-divide

2. Nomar Garciaparra and Matt Murton for Orlando Cabrera (2004)

That's the simple version. Here's how Baseball Reference lists the trade:

The Minnesota Twins sent Doug Mientkiewicz to the Boston Red Sox. The Montreal Expos sent Orlando Cabrera to the Boston Red Sox. The Chicago Cubs sent Francis Beltran, Alex Gonzalez and Brendan Harris to the Montreal Expos. The Chicago Cubs sent Justin Jones (minors) to the Minnesota Twins.

Yes, this deal is so old one of the participating teams no longer exists. [in old man voice] I remember when the Red Sox sent Stinky McTurd to the St. Louis Browns, who sent Harry "Baldy" Harrison to the Washington Senators who sent Cornpone Van Smalls to the Indiana Nappers of the Independent league, who completed the trade by sending a bunt cake, two bushels of corn and a dog whistle to the East Greenville Horseteeth, a team that, technically speaking, did not exist. Point being, the Nomar trade happened a while ago.

Here's your more serious opening: if trading Babe Ruth to the Yankees was the Red Sox original sin, one which, as the story goes, doomed the team to failure, then perhaps trading Nomar Garciaparra restored the virtue of the franchise.

That's a lot to put on a trade, of course, but then it's important to recall how Nomar was perceived in Boston in the years leading up to the deal. Looking back it's easy to think of the post-trade Nomar, a broken down, lesser version of the player he once was. To properly analyze the deal, you have to look at the perceptions of the players at the time.

Nomar was traded to Chicago on July 31st, 2004. Up to that time he had hit .323/.370/.553 for the Red Sox over parts of nine seasons. That's a career .553 slugging percentage from a shortstop. In his entire career Derek Jeter has slugged .553 never times. (To be fair he once slugged .552, though that was his only time slugging over .500.) At the time, the argument could be made Nomar was better than Jeter. It may or may not be correct, but that you could defend the position should indicate how valuable Nomar had been to the Red Sox in the first nine seasons of his career.

Nomar's contract was up after the 2004 season and the two sides had not been able to agree on an extension. Nomar had turned down a four year, $60 million contract extension from the Red Sox. This while perpetual counterpart Jeter was in the midst of a ten year, $189 million deal. Nomar felt disrespected.

This feeling also stemmed from the Red Sox attempted trade for Alex Rodriguez, then of the Texas Rangers. Rodriguez was considered the best shortstop in the game at the time and was also a few years into the richest contract in the game, the ten year, $252 million deal he signed to leave the Seattle Mariners. So the Red Sox would spend literally hundreds of millions on Rodriguez, but not on Garciaparra. What's more, not having room for two shortstops, the Red Sox had agreed to deal Nomar to the Chicago White Sox for Magglio Ordonez, conditioned on the completion of the Rodriguez trade.

From the point of view of the Red Sox front office, In an ideal world nobody would know about the conditional deal which fell apart when the Sox failed to consummate the Rodriguez trade, but of course, news got out. The end result of all of the above was Nomar feels under appreciated, disrespected, and probably more than a little bit angry at the Red Sox front office,

Then in 2004, the injuries set in. Nomar missed time with a chronically sore Achilles tendon and the Red Sox didn't have much in the way of a replacement shortstop for him while he was out. Six different players played shortstop for the 2004 Red Sox. Nomar and Orlando Cabrera are the easy ones, but don't forget Pokey Reese, Cesar Crespo, Ricky Gutierrez, and Mark Bellhorn.

So, the fact that Nomar couldn't be counted on to be in the lineup combined with his impending free agency, strained relationship with the front office, and an under reported aspect, Nomar's deteriorating defense. Theo Epstein wanted a player who could provide plus defense every day and it became clear Nomar was no longer that player.

Through all of that Nomar Garciaparra was still the face of the Boston Red Sox. What's more, Theo Epstein had been GM for not quite two years at the time of the deal. Theo has since said his career was riding on the outcome of this deal, and it's hard to dispute that. It's unlikely he would have been fired immediately had the deal blown up in his face, but it isn't inconceivable that it might have so damaged his reputation that he may have faced more oversight and left at some point whether of his own accord or not.

As we know though, the deal did work out. It was a brilliant instance of selling at the height of the market for a player. Nomar went on to hit well for the Chicago Cubs, but his injury problems continued and his defense worsened. He played shortstop exclusively for the Cubs in 2004 but next season he spent the majority of his time at third base before moving to first base, a much less demanding position, when he joined the Dodgers as a free agent the following season.

The primary player the Sox received, shortstop Orlando Cabrera, was in many ways the anti-Nomar. While Nomar enjoyed superstar status, Cabrera joined the Red Sox from the baseball Siberia of Montreal. His name recognition wasn't in the same ballpark. To that point in his career Nomar had been an exceptional hitter whereas Cabrera was a below average hitter (to that point in his career he carried an OPS+ of 84, sixteen percent below average). But despite Nomar's good defensive reputation, he had slipped in the field, whereas Cabrera still was an above average defensive player.

The essence of this deal was receiving certainty for uncertainty, adequacy for occasional brilliance, and sanity for chaos. With Cabrera in the fold, the Red Sox defense improved, the drama died down after the deal, and the team rolled to a 42-18 record the rest of the way. Then, in the playoffs... well, you know.

Unlike other trades in this series, this one wasn't a heist. This one wasn't getting something for nothing, or pulling the wool over another GM's eyes and convincing them to take garbage in return for a superstar. This deal was actually relatively fair. But, for the 2004 Boston Red Sox to trade the face of their franchise, the man Ted Williams had put his arm around, in the midst of a pennant race for a relative unknown, speaks well of the GM. We'll never know whether the 2004 team would have gone on to win the World Series had Epstein not made this trade. Answering that question is a fool's errand, but that Epstein had, frankly, the chutzpah, the sheer audacity, to make a deal he knew would be so wildly unpopular it could end his career because thought it would improve the team and increase the chances of winning more than just the Wild Card, should be impressive even a decade and a half after the fact.

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If Dave Roberts

is thrown out in the ninth of Game 4 of the ALCS at second, does this trade still qualify as great?

I ask because it is impossible to divorce this trade from the 2004 Championship. As a result, you can argue almost every deal that was done before that Championship was a great one.

No doubt, the Sox took off after he left. Whether the replacement of Nomar with an average shortstop (Orlando had a .5 war in 2004, though he was better in the years after) was the cause is another question, and it is worth remembering that the front office sort of made their own mess with Nomar. It is also worth remembering that Orlando’s contributions where so highly valued that he wasn’t resigned.

Nomar was my favorite Red Sox, and I was sad to see him go. In the end the argument for the trade is almost entirely dependent on intangibles – and those are by definition hard to define.

by flasoxfan on Jul 1, 2011 3:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Also worth mentioning:

I’m really glad we didn’t end up with Alex Rodriguez. @#$% me.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Jul 1, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

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by Matthew Kory on Jul 1, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's a Dbag, but a great player

and with Magglio in his prime……

I’m not sure, it would have been an interesting mix.

by cds7c on Jul 1, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are certain people you are genetically disposed

to root agains, sabermetrics be damned. Alex @#$%ing Rodriguez tops that list.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Jul 1, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Have to agree with you here.

So glad we didn’t get ARod.

Almost as big a blessing as losing the lottery with the Celtics, preventing them from drafting Greg Oden… as a result, Ainge rolled the dice on some aging veterans, and we hung a banner there.

Can you imagine the state of Boston basketball if we’d won that lottery and tried to rebuild the franchise around Greg Oden? We probably would have traded Pierce away for prospects to develop along side of Oden as well…

by AlohaSox on Jul 3, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with everything you say

I’ve never fully understood why this trade was so associated with winning the championship. I think much of the relief over it is not having him on the team after 04 but that could’ve been accomplished by not resigning him. Like you said, he continued to play well the rest of 04.

by BigRedDog42 on Jul 1, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Disagree

I may have got caught up in the intangibles while writing this, but I think the key piece of information is the certainty and good defense that Cabrera provided. With Nomar the Sox might have or might not have had him in the lineup. They needed someone to play the key defensive position on the diamond every day and reliably. I think if Nomar could have done that there wouldn’t have been a trade, offense be damned.

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by Matthew Kory on Jul 1, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

That wasn't

the reason they immediately turned around. Hell, according to fangraphs Cabera was a -5.5 in fielding in 2004 (though he was plus 10 in the years thereafter).

The only way to argue this trade was a great one is to argue that Nomar was a cancer in the club house and he needed to be dealt. There is no way from the statistics to make the argument that Cabera’s contribution was responsible for the turnaround.

by flasoxfan on Jul 1, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I should add

that Nomar’s treatment by the FO was WHY he was a cancer.

by flasoxfan on Jul 1, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

That isn't true..

Nomah was offered something like 4 year $52 to $60 million deal with incentives, in 2002-2003. He and his agent Arn Tellem rejected the deal, because they felt they wanted a contract in duration and money range as Jeter. Nomar seemed much more interested in a big signing bonus than the entire package..

As we can see in Nomar’s post Sox career, it would had been a horrible contract, given he missed most of his playing time in Chicago, and he had a “meh” type of years with the Dodgers.

  Nomar was lying about how he got injured, and he wasn’t taking up the slack in 2004. He had to be traded, it is no fluke that the Sox became a much better team after Nomah was gone.

The sniping by the Sox management was unnecessary after Nomar was gone, however, both Tellem and Nomar really, really screwed up the contract negotiations with the Sox, they were both being very unrealistic, and Nomar never got that type of money whether with Chicago or in LA.

I consider’s Nomar’s clubhouse cancer behavior, and lying about injuries, very self inflicted on his part. I do think the Sox management had a legitimate gripe with Nomar’s behavior.

by superferret on Jul 1, 2011 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cabrera’s UZR was -1.6 with the Red Sox in ‘04 according to Fan Graphs. It was also +24 next season with Anaheim. Garciaparra’s UZR was -7.8 in ‘04 with the Sox. His UZR/150 was -33. It’s not like the Sox could have traded for anyone. They had to chose between what they had and what was available. Cabrera was likely the best of what was available.

The Sox could see Nomar had slipped badly on defense and wasn’t in the lineup regularly. Cabrera’s offense couldn’t touch Nomar’s but he would play every day and play around average defense (if you believe the numbers). I think that’s a fair argument for a change.

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by Matthew Kory on Jul 1, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

To once again temper the use of UZR

single season numbers need to be heavily regressed. Cabrera’s 2004 UZR doesn’t mean that he wasn’t a good defender when acquired and it doesn’t mean he wasn’t good in 2004 as a Red Sox, that is just not the way it works. He was ALWAYS better than Nomar, which is the real point. I think that the struggles of Derek Lowe, baseball’s most prolific groundballer that season was in part due to the poor fielding of Bellhorn, Millar and Nomar (Mueller was pretty good, though not great) D-Lowe was great in the playoffs however and improved defense was certainly a factor. The team couldn’t field before this trade and after it had two elite fielders in Cabrera and Meinkewiecz.

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by Mattsullivan on Jul 1, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

To argue

that this trade was the second best Theo made you have to go by how Cabrera played while in uniform. It’s great that his numbers were good in 2005 – but he wasn’t in uniform in 2005 with Boston.

Cabrera was a .5 War player in 2004.

Sorry, I just don’t see the case being made here in any other way than that Nomar was a cancer that had to be removed.

by flasoxfan on Jul 1, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are arguing

that this is the second best trade Theo has ever made. You have precious little data to show this. Moreover, you have suggested that his defense was responsible for the turnaround.

I don’t think you have come close to showing that. The 2004 RS were a very good team that was under performing. Their turnaround was very likely, with or without this trade. To argue that this trade was even a major factor in the 42-18 record is, I think, a stretch.

Again – if Dave Roberts gets thrown out at second this trade doesn’t even make the list.

by flasoxfan on Jul 1, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't argue any of that.

My “argument”, if you must call it that, is this is the second best trade Theo Epstein has made as GM of the Red Sox. That’s all. This list is, as I said in the first of the series, entirely subjective, as all lists of this nature inevitably are.

I didn’t list all the defensive stats because I don’t think a half season of defensive stats shows anything. I’m going by what Theo Epstein has said in the years since and what happened in the ’04 season pre-trade.

You’re welcome to disagree. Posting a subjective list on a site like this invites disagreement. What trade do you feel was better?

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by Matthew Kory on Jul 1, 2011 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it is Theo's gutsiest trade he made..

  There was going to be PR fallout in the Nomar trade, there was also going to risk if Cabrera could be a better replacement. Theo also wanted to traded Derek Lowe for his pet pitcher favourite, Matt Clement, but thought the better Shortstop defense would help Lowe.

In some way the best part of the trade was not going through in trading Lowe.

In long run, it was so so trade, because none of the players were there by 2005 for the Sox, it was also not the greatest trade for the Cubs..

by superferret on Jul 1, 2011 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it would be a so so trade, if we hadn't won in 2004.

At the end of the day, you cannot put it all on this deal… and if Roberts gets thrown out stealing, you’re probably right… this deal isn’t in the top 5.

However, the proof is in the pudding. The Sox did go 42-18 after this deal, which speaks to something positive taking place when it happened. Who knows what, exactly, it was… Nomar as a cancer, Nomar not reliable enough, Nomar not playing good enough defense; Cabrera’s defense at SS, Cabrera’s enthusiasm in the clubhouse spilling over to his teammates, Doug Mientkiewicz late inning defense… or, frankly, someone like Schilling willing the team to win.

At the end of the day, though, looking back at this deal (and where Nomar went from there), it’s hard to believe we’d have won with him in our clubhouse. He is one of my favorite Sox players of all time, and I think we didn’t handle him well (part of what is now an understood piece of Theo’s philosophy – not getting overly sentimental about fan favorites like Nomar, Damon, Pedro, Bay, etc.). I was sad to see him go.

However, since we won the World Series in 2004, it has to go down as one of the best trades in Sox history. Might not be fair, and the point is probably a valid one – if Roberts gets thrown out, this deal isn’t on the list and Theo probably isn’t still our GM.

Roberts wasn’t thrown out, and the rest is history.

by AlohaSox on Jul 3, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stop being so fixated with Dave Roberts stealing second base...

  
  There are so many factors in the 2004 ALCS that could had put the MFYs over the top and win the ALCS, or make them lose by 4-2. If Schilling didn’t screw up his foot on game 1 of the 2004 ALDS. If the Sox’s pitching didn’t melt in Game 3, if, if, if, It is baseball. The MFYs lost because their hitting fell apart after game 5. Matsui was shut down, and he was causing shit fits to the Sox throughout the Series.. In some ways, I always feel that Derek Lowe’s pitching performance was better and much more crucial than what Schilling did in Game 6, but both pitchers deserve a huge amount of credit for their performances, which were incredible.

  The Sox won, the trade was a good trade, no matter if the Sox won or lost in Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS.

  Nomar should had been traded after the A-Rod deal fell through, given both sides wanted him out of Boston. He rejected a pretty good contract, and was acting like a jerk about it. However, the Sox Front Office was stupid in keeping him on the team, when they should had made a deal for him in 2004 Spring training.

by superferret on Jul 4, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes it makes the list..

because the trade helped the Sox make the playoffs in 2004. Look at the Sox record before the trade, the knowledge that Nomar was going to play Manny with imaginary injuries for the rest of the season. The Sox record after the trade in 2004 was one of the best in baseball.

Much like Tony Clark’s ground rule double in the top of the 9th of game 5 of the 2004 ALCS didn’t go into the right field stands, there wouldn’t be a Sox 2004 World Series appearance.

  Roberts steal wouldn’t matter much if Papi didn’t hit the walkoff homer in Game 4.

by superferret on Jul 2, 2011 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Such a dichotomy

It’s weird that I don’t remember much about that team before the trade EXCEPT Nomar (and Schilling’s injury). After the trade, the team became Ortiz, Manny, Damon, Pedro and Schill.

by beej on Jul 1, 2011 3:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Speaking only for myself, it is impressive how my perception of the team is almost entirely post-trade. In fact, it’s hard to get back into that pre-trade, pre-’04 mindset. Which is absolutely a good thing.

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by Matthew Kory on Jul 1, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

SS since the trade...

Consider that Theo traded away a legit franchise player, superstar, etc. and still hasn’t replaced him. Cabrera was statisically average, but I’d have given up a lot to have had him for a few years after 2004 compared to the equally average players who’ve rolled through town.

by beej on Jul 1, 2011 3:35 PM EDT reply actions  

franchise player and superstar

who wasn’t performing and didn’t really perform after that. So sure, Theo traded away a franchise player but he pretty much did it at exactly the right time. Imagine if he HAD gotten a Jeter-comparable deal- we’d still be paying Nomar $18 million a year today.

by wolf9309 on Jul 1, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still think we should have held onto Cabrera as well...

Not arguing (obviously) that we shouldn’t have traded Nomar, and I know there are a host of rumors that swirl about why we didn’t bring Cabrera back… but Cabrera and Renteria, on paper, were very similar players. So very odd that we didn’t bring Cabrera back (except for rumors of off the field stuff) and signed Renteria (who never adjusted to Boston).

I wish the off the field stuff didn’t matter, and Cabrera could have stuck around a little longer. Maybe Hanley Ramirez isn’t included in the deal for Lowell/Beckett (but I believe that deal still gets done), or maybe we never sign Lugo… maybe we’d actually have a real starting SS (no offense to Marco intended, and I wish I didn’t have to concede that Lowrie finally is living up to the injury prone label he was unfairly tagged with).

I think, however, his point wasn’t to give Nomar 10/$189, but rather to keep Cabrera for 2005 and 2006, or so… I have to agree with that, and just wish I truly knew what it was about Cabrera that bounces him from one team to the next so frequently…

by AlohaSox on Jul 3, 2011 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

What does that mean?

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by Matthew Kory on Jul 1, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

A good trade involves getting good pieces in return

This to me seemed to be dumping a problem we didn’t want anymore. So we could’ve gotten the briefcase from Pulp Fiction in return for Nomar, and we would’ve been in the same place. OC and Mienty themselves didn’t mean much of anything at all.

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by Sean O on Jul 1, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, no...

They needed a shortstop so they actually had to get someone to play the position, unless you think they could win the Series with either Cesar Crespo or Pokey Reese playing every day.

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by Matthew Kory on Jul 1, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

OC and Mienty themselves didn’t mean much of anything at all.

if we had those two in ’86(?) we would have won the world series over the mfmets

by Mick Lowe on Jul 1, 2011 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is Adrian Gonzalez gonna be #1?

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by Marisa Ingemi on Jul 1, 2011 5:41 PM EDT reply actions  

I would say too little time has passed.

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I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Fear the Roar.

by TheLoneDavid on Jul 1, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I could tell you...

..but then I’d have to kill you.

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by Matthew Kory on Jul 1, 2011 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let's hold off then

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by Marisa Ingemi on Jul 1, 2011 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough!

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by Matthew Kory on Jul 1, 2011 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just so I can force you to tell me!

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by Marisa Ingemi on Jul 1, 2011 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

#1 Beckett?

Not sure of all of the pieces but the Sox got Beckett for Hanley Ramirez… the Marlins forced them to also take Mike Lowell in the trade (coming off of cancer and his fairly large contract!)

Lowell turned out to anchor 3b for several years and Beckett has lead the team to a ring in 2007! These guys were monsters in the 2007 Postseason. Wasn’t Lowell WS MVP?

by Chris Sanford on Jul 1, 2011 11:01 PM EDT reply actions  

That was when Theo was auditioning for Planet of the Apes.

DFA The Tampa Bay Rays
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Fear the Roar.

by TheLoneDavid on Jul 1, 2011 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right... rumor has it Theo never would have traded Hanley...

However, it’s also a little convenient that this deal got done during that window, and it’s been widely rumored that he was aware and signed of on it too.

So, who knows… but I don’t think you can count it for him officially. Wasn’t it the current Padres GM that was acting GM at the time, and did the deal? So we have him to thank for 2007, Beckett and Lowell as well as Gonzo this past off season?

by AlohaSox on Jul 3, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Theo didn’t do the Beckett trade..

It was a good trade, but I think the Sox could had called the Marlins a bit of a bluff, given they were looking for a salary dump, however trades should benefit both teams, not looked upon as one team trying to gyp the other team as the Rangers did with the Mariners with the Cliff Lee trade last year, (ie one of the pitchers, had a serious criminal matter hanging over him, which the Rangers didn’t tell the Mariners about)

by superferret on Jul 2, 2011 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Theo the meek

This series has been a good reminder of what a poor GM Theo has been. We all know that giving up 4 solid prospects for an extra year of Gonzo is going to be number one. Guess you have to say that those prospects also protected Theo from having to compete for Adrian’s signature; but if these are his best 5 deals, then he really has been pathetic.

And using “Over the Monster” to hype himself is pretty lame too.

by sox-rox on Jul 2, 2011 8:32 AM EDT reply actions  

"Using OTM to hype himself"

What are you going on about?

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

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by Bloggy on Jul 2, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don't you know?

Kory IS Theo.

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by Rogue Nine on Jul 2, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

So...Theo is doing the Daily Links now??

That’s pretty awesome.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

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by Bloggy on Jul 2, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not one to spread conspiracies

but I DO notice that “Matthew Kory” is an anagram for “Am Theo Y R Wkt”. Sounds suspicious, right? What do you mean no?

by wolf9309 on Jul 2, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

And...

Ever notice you never see me and Theo in the same room at once? If that isn’t suspicious, then I don’t.. Wait! I’ve said too much!

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by Matthew Kory on Jul 2, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Theo has had winning records for every year he has been GM..

  He had built teams that has been to the ALCS four times during his reign.
He hired Tito as manager, who hasn’t had a losing season.
The Sox have been in the playoffs five times during his time as the Sox GM..

Theo has been given much slack, given he has a huge budget to sign the Carl Crawfords and the Julio Lugos of the world, but he also made some very good pick ups, with some bad signings, (Lugo, Rentería, etc.)

  Personally, I always feel the worst trade that Theo did was the Gagne deal, because half the incentive for the trade was to keep Gagne away from the MFYs, and how he turned out, he would had caused much more damage than Manny’s bat against the MFYs.

Of course Theo’s two big achievements was 2 World Series rings. He gets even more leeway that he helped build teams that got Boston a World Series team after 86 years.

Is Theo the best GM in baseball? No, probably right now, someone like Andrew Friedman, but the problems with wheeling and dealing GMs, is the risks will come back to bite the GM, like Billy Beane’s trades and the A’s problems right now. Theo is a competent GM, who like all GMs have made some really bad trades and signings, but he hasn’t done something like Ned Colletti of the Dodgers who traded the Dodgers top catching prospect for Casey Blake so the Indians would pay out the rest of Blake’s contract for the year…

by superferret on Jul 2, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Andrew Friedman? Who does he work for?

For me, it’s got to be the Toronto GM… granted, his biggest win the last offseason was taking advantage of the Angels, but that deal was pretty spectacular. He also made some interesting moves to build his team for the future (yet, they are still playing pretty well this season), like trading Marcum to the Brewers…

So far, he’s looking sharp and giving us another thorn in the AL Beast to deal with.

by AlohaSox on Jul 3, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Friedman is the Rays VP/essentially GM

And I’d agree that he has pretty clearly done the most with the least of anyone out there. I like a lot of the things Anthopolous has done- he seems like one of those guys that’s two steps ahead of what everyone else is thinking. It’s a little early in his tenure though to really judge how effective the moves he’s making are, so I’m kind of holding off another year or two. He makes the occasional head-scratcher move, but most of the time the moves he makes leave me thinking “the other team agreed to that???”

by wolf9309 on Jul 4, 2011 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

You should know who he works for..

 
Given he made the Rays from a laughingstock to a team that gives the Sox some serious problems in the past years, including defeating them in 2008 with the trade that gave the Rays a pitcher that owned the Sox in 2008: Matt Garza.

  Friedman gets some credit for the Rays 2010 pitching staff. In some ways, the toughest series in the 2010 AL playoffs was the Rays vs. Rangers 2010 ALDS.

by superferret on Jul 4, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah judging a GM is really tough

Each one has such different situations that you can’t really compare them too easily. Theo has made some dumb moves, I think every GM has- but then with the Sox he knows he has the leeway to take some risks and some pay off, some look awful. With a different payroll, he’d probably make entirely different moves. In any case, I am, in general, thrilled with the decisions he makes and what he’s done for the team (and frankly, I don’t see how anyone who has been a Sox fan since before his tenure could think otherwise)

by wolf9309 on Jul 4, 2011 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

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