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Looking Back at the Dan Duquette Era


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Bob Z's series looking at the drafting, trades, and acquisitions of Theo Epstein's tenure inspired me to take a walk down (mostly bad) memory lane to the Dan Duquette era. For those of you who never wanted to hear his name again and are now scrubbing your eyes out with holy water, I apologize. To get a comprehensive look at Duquette's performance, separate from the narrative that sprang up around him during his time and after he left, I examined the results of his front office in four areas: Drafting and player development, free agents and acquisitions, internal contract decisions, and major trades. The results may surprise you. 

References: All info from the amazing baseball-reference.com. Duquette's tenure ran from January 1994 to March 2002. He was fired immediately after the Henry/Werner/Lucchino ownership group took control. Mike Port was interim GM for the 2002 season (I might do a piece on him, as the FO under him drafted Lester among other things). Theo Epstein was hired as GM thereafter. We head to the Duke after the jump.

Star-divide

 

Part 1: Drafting/Internal Development

 Drafting under Duquette was, for lack of a better word, horrific. Out of the eight drafts overseen by Duquette the only players of note to meaningfully contribute to the Red Sox, either by play or by bringing other players via trade, were:

1994

SS Nomar Garciaparra, RHP Carl Pavano

1996

1B Shea Hillenbrand

1999

LHP Casey Fossum

2000

RHP Manny Delcarmen, SS Hanley Ramirez

2001

IF Kevin Youkilis, RHP Anibal Sanchez, LHP Jorge de la Rosa

 

A star shortshop (Nomar), league-average 1B (Hillenbrand), league-average reliever (Delcarmen), and star 1B (Youkilis) were the only productive homegrown products over EIGHT long years to reach the MLB team. Four players! When people reference bad drafting eventually coming around to cripple a franchise, this is what they mean. Whether it was inattention, lack of resources, poor talent evaluation, or some combination of all that, the Red Sox struggled badly to develop homegrown players. This unfortunately played right into Duquette’s most aggravating hobby: snatching up aging veterans to fill whatever random holes the team had. Predictably, there was no shortage of those. Overall grade: D+

 

Part 2: Free Agents, Pickups

 

(April 1995) 1B/OF Reggie Jefferson for 5yr/9.75M. Hit .316/.363/.505 over the contract, including .347/.388/.593 over 122 games in 1996 that ranks among the more forgotten monster offensive seasons from a Red Sox player. Unfortunately he could not stay healthy and played only 145 games in the last 2 years. Still, for an average of less than 2M/yr, a decent overall signing. Grade:  B+

(April 1995) RHP Erik Hanson for 1yr/1.5M. Despite mediocre peripherals, managed 15 wins and 2.7 WAR as solid part of a playoff-team rotation, for cheap. Grade: B

(April 1995) LF Troy O’Leary off waivers from Brewers. Hit .276/.331/.459 over 7 years, including .280/.343/.495 with some very memorable HR’s for the 1999 playoff team. Totaled 5.5 WAR, paid 16M. Decent, cheaply acquired acquisition, provided affordable league-average production. Grade: B+

(April 1995) RHP Tim Wakefield. 183 wins and almost 3000 innings later, I’ll call this a good decision. Grade: A

(December 1995) C/1B Mike Stanley. Although Stanley was aging (33) and 1996 was his last year catching full-time, he made up for it with his bat, hitting .270/.383/.506 with 24 HR in 1996. Stanley was hitting .300/.394/.515 midway through 1997 when he began a bizarre saga of musical chairs through the AL East, getting traded to the Yankees for pitching prospect Tony Armas. As the Red Sox were nowhere near contention in 1997 and Armas later became an integral piece of the trade for you-know-who, this was actually a rather shrewd move by Duquette in the long run. Stanley then became a FA at the end of the year and signed with the Blue Jays, who then traded him back to the Red Sox midway through 1998. Regardless, Stanley hit .274/.381/.483 over his time with Boston, producing 6.3 total WAR while being paid only 11.4M total. Grade: A-

(December 1995) RHP Rich Garces. Over seven years with the Red Sox, El Guapo threw 307 innings with 270 K’s and a 3.78 ERA, totaling 3.8 WAR out of the bullpen while being paid only 5M total. A cheap, efficient pickup. Grade: A-

(December 1995) RHP Tom Gordon. "Flash" produced a surprising 8.5 WAR for 13M during his four years in Boston, thanks to a very effective 1997 that nobody seems to remember and his electric 1998 as closer. He never seemed to do well under pressure, but that turned out to be a blessing in 2004 eh? Grade: A-

(January 1997) – LHP Steve Avery for 2yr/8.75M. Avery was emblematic of Duquette’s worst habit: a penchant for signing ineffective aging pitchers on the cheap to fill out the starting rotation behind Pedro. Perhaps he hoped they would gain dominance via osmosis. Avery was shelled from the start and totaled only 220 IP in a Red Sox uniform with a hideous 113:108 BB/K ratio. Even more inexplicable was the fact he had been signed in the first place, as Avery had not really been effective since 1993. Total: -1.2 WAR and a bill for 8.75M. Likely Duquette’s worst pitching signing. Grade: F

(August 1998) Purchased LHP Pete Schourek from Astros. Yet another player in the "Pedro and 4 bums" game. Duquette was oddly enamored with Schourek, re-acquiring him two more times after this one. In total over parts of 3 years: 181 IP, 4.81 ERA, a stellar 5-18 record. Duquette expended 2.8M total on him for 1.3 WAR.Grade: D+

(November 1998) 2B/SS Jose Offerman for 4yr/24M. Offerman provided one solid year when he hit .294/.391/.435 in 1999 with 56 extra-base hits, despite poor defense. From then on, he was essentially replacement level. The Red Sox received 4.2 WAR total for their 24M. Grade: D

(December 1998) RHP Mark Portugal for 1yr/2.7M. Portugal was 36, a lifelong NL pitcher with his best days long behind him. He fared about as well as you’d expect, getting clubbed for a 5.51 ERA and 28 HR in only 150 IP, good for 0.2 WAR. Grade: F

(December 1998) 1B Brian Daubach. Daubach had an excellent season for the 1999 playoff team, hitting .294/.360/.562 and finishing fourth for Rookie of the Year. Unfortunately he quickly regressed to a league-average hitter, damping hopes of stardom. Nevertheless, Daubach hit .265/.341/.488 over his time with the Red Sox, good for an .829 OPS. He generated 5.6 WAR for a total cost of only 3.7M. A good, efficient signing, if not spectacular; unfortunately it was Duquette’s first in years. Grade: A-

(January 1999) RHP Pat Rapp for 1yr/1.65M. Hmm, Rapp actually wasn’t THAT bad although my memory begs otherwise. Rapp was worth 1.8 WAR for the year, managing a 4.12 ERA over 146 innings. Grade: C-

(March 1999) RHP Ramon Martinez for 2yr/7.8M. Pedro’s big bro had not been fully healthy for several years before this signing, threw only 20 innings in the 1999 regular season, and was annihilated for a 6.13 ERA over 27 starts in 2000. Duquette shrugged and went back to the scrap heap. Ramon provided a grand total of 0.2 WAR (monetary value of brotherly love with Pedro, not included) for 7.8M down the drain. Grade: F

(December 1999) LHP Jeff Fassero for 1yr/2M. Sigh. Aging veteran pitcher signed by Duquette, puts up mediocre performance, misses significant time with injuries. News at eleven. Still, 1.6 WAR for 2M isn’t a total disaster. Grade: C-

(December 2000) RHP Hideo Nomo for 1yr/4.5M. Nomo struck out 220 in 198 innings and produced 2.9 WAR, along with throwing a no-hitter and actually giving Pedro a respectable partner in the rotation. It’s tempting to give Duquette the broken-clock joke of being right twice a day, but I will give credit where credit is due. Grade: B

(December 2000) LF Manny Ramirez for 8yr, 160M with two 20M team options. Arguably the contract that set in motion the events leading to 2004. Nobody needs to be refreshed on the Manny saga. He was among the most gifted hitters to ever play the game, and nearly as adept at bumbling away runs with the glove that he created with his bat. On the one hand, Manny was (when he felt like it) an offensive force of the sort the franchise had not seen since Ted Williams, and was a critical piece of the 2004 and 2007 titles. On the other hand, the massive contract, endless distractions, and hilariously bad defense. One’s sentiments on Manny, and opinion of how important he was to ‘04 and ‘07, are likely the determining factor on judging this contract. My grade: C+

(January 2001) RHP David Cone for 1yr/1M. 38 years old, check. Limited by injuries to 135 innings, check. Mediocre 1.8 WAR, check. At least he came cheap. Grade: C-

(December 2001) RHP John Burkett for 2yr/11M. 37 years old, check. Burkett did stay healthy, but was league-average to poor, putting up a 4.85 ERA over 354 innings. Total production: only 2.3 WAR for 11M. Grade: D

(December 2001) Signed OF Johnny Damon for 4yr/31M. Damon produced 12.1 WAR over the duration of the contract while hitting .295/.362/.441 and, of course, playing an instrumental role in the 2004 championship. Overall, a strong signing and nothing to complain about. Grade: A-

Summary: Duquette’s surprising skill at finding value from junkyard position players and relievers was almost entirely offset by his inexplicable obsession with signing aged, low-upside, veteran starters for cheap. Had Pedro been capable of pitching every day, this might not have been a problem. Instead, Duquette’s starting-pitching acquisitions were a nonstop parade of money down the drain. Until Derek Lowe showed up, the Red Sox rotation usually consisted of Pedro, Wakefield, and a 3-man traveling circus. From a historical standpoint, the Manny signing basically set the gears in motion that would lead to the World Series championship, though few could have suspected or predicted that.

 

Part 3: Internal Contracts (Extensions, non signings, etc)

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(December 1996) Did not re-sign Roger Clemens. Ah yes, the infamous "twilight of his career" saga. We now know, of course, that Roger was putting a little more than milk in his Corn Flakes. The reality is that this situation was more complex than the common portrayal of being an embarrassment for Duquette. On one hand, Clemens did post a very strong season in 1996, piling up 242 IP and 257 K’s. On the other hand, he was 34, with recurring injury issues over the last several years, had barely produced 2 WAR in both 1993 and 1995, and was demanding a multi-year contract with a significant pay raise. If the situation were repeated today, would you have re-signed him? Given the circumstances at the time, I cannot blame Duquette for refusing to bite. Last but not least, the loss of Clemens and absence of a frontline starter directly led to the trade for Pedro Martinez, the man who would replace him as the most dominant starter in Red Sox history, and who had been targeted by the Yankees as well. How would history have been different if the Red Sox had held onto an aging Clemens, while the Yankees had acquired Pedro in his prime? I don’t even want to think about that shit. Grade: A

(December 1996) Re-signed 3B Tim Naehring for 2yr/5.5M. In itself this was not a bad decision as Naehring provided decent offense and a strong OBP. However, due to injury Naehring played only 70 games in 1997 and did not play at all in 1998. While the short length of contract helped mitigate the damage, most of this ended up as money down the drain. Grade: D+

(December 1997) Re-signed RHP Bret Saberhagen for 4yr/16.8M. After signing Saberhagen to a 500K deal the year before to test his recovery from surgery, Duquette evidently was confident enough in his health to give him four years through his age-37 season. "Sabes" managed to hold together for 1998 and two-thirds of 1999 before his shoulder imploded yet again. He did not pitch at all in 2000 and only threw 15 innings in 2001, totaling 5.8 WAR for the life of the contract. Why Duquette felt inclined to sign someone with Saberhagen’s long history of injury trouble through his late 30’s is beyond me. To his credit, Saberhagen was effective when healthy; however, two entire years of sunk cost almost entirely offset the positive value gained. Grade: C 

(December 1997) Extended RHP Pedro Martinez for 6yr/75M with 17M option, for 7yr/92M total. At the time, this represented the largest contract ever given to a pitcher. The deal thus covered Pedro’s age-26 to 32 seasons at an average annual value of just over 13M. In hindsight, the amount of risk Duquette took on with this was significant: not only the historic duration and cost of the contract, but the fact that Pedro had not yet thrown a single pitch in the AL (not to mention injury risk). In the end, he pulled the trigger anyways. Imagine if the extension had been shorter. Say, trying to re-sign Pedro after 2000? In the end, worth every god damn cent. Grade: A+

(January 1998) Signed IF John Valentin to a 4yr/24.4M extension. After repeatedly demanding an extension, Valentin was granted his wish with a 4 year contract covering his age 31-34 seasons, with a team option for the fifth year. He proceeded to post one more good year in 1998, then went into precipitous decline. A significant knee injury didn’t help matters. Valentin played only 30 games combined in the last 2 years of the contract. For Duquette’s 24 million he received 5.1 WAR total, and what amounted to one and a half seasons’ worth of playing time. While Duquette could not have predicted Valentin’s career ending injury troubles, he should have known better than to give a long extension to a middle infielder entering his mid 30’s. The result was three years of sunk cost. Grade: D+

(October 1998) Declined FA contract to 1B Mo Vaughn. While putting up a .337/.402/.591 season with 40 HR, Vaughn had publicly feuded with Duquette and Boston sports media for much of the year (ah, the late 90’s Red Sox. I remember those days), then infamously crashed his car while returning from the Foxy Lady strip club. Duquette made no effort to resign Vaughn, who promptly signed with the Angels for a 6yr/80M contract for his age 31-36 seasons. He almost immediately began to decline, suffered numerous injury problems, missed all of 2001, and by the end of 2003 was out of baseball. Considering his body type and age, letting Vaughn walk was a good decision. Whether or not Duquette actually did so out of baseball smarts or simple personal dislike for the man is a mystery, but the outcome was undoubtedly positive. Grade: A

(August 2000) Waived SS David Eckstein. Eckstein had been a 19th round pick in 1997. Eckstein promptly put up 17.4 WAR over the next six years with the Angels and Cardinals. Eckstein’s loss is somewhat more defensible given that Nomar was already occupying the SS spot at the MLB level, but this still counts as a faux pas in talent evaluation for throwing away a useful MLB player, while getting nothing in return. Grade: F

Summary: Letting Clemens walk, aggressively extending Pedro, and not re-signing Vaughn were three excellent moves, all of which could have derailed the franchise for years if mishandled. Again, your mileage may vary on whether the Clemens/Vaughn decisions were due to baseball smarts or just the soap-opera atmosphere of the mid 90’s Red Sox, but either way the team was better off for it. While Duquette whiffed on some other transactions, the importance of those top 3 moves pushes his overall record into the positive for me.

 

Part 4 – Major Trades

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via i.imgur.com

(December 1994) OF Otis Nixon & Jose Ortiz to Rangers for OF Jose Canseco. Nixon/Ortiz were replacement level. Canseco OPS’d .933 and .989 in 1995-1996 but only appeared in 198 games total, along with an 0-13 (Adamantium sombrero?) in the 1995 playoffs.. Still, given how little he cost, a win. Grade: B

(July 1995) RHP Frankie Rodriguez to Twins for RHP Rick Aguilera. Rodriguez quickly flamed out. Aguilera was lights out as a stretch run bullpen pickup, tallying 20 saves. A prototypical low-cost trade. Grade: B

(January 1996) Shayne Bennett, Ryan McGuire, LHP Rheal Cormier to Expos for SS Wil Cordero. This trade looked like an absolute steal for Duquette at the start, as Cormier was an aging lefty reliever and the other two names amounted to nothing. Cordero was only 23 and full of potential, having hit .294/.363/.489 with 15 HR in his age-22 season with Montreal. With Boston, however, his offensive game regressed along with his health. Cordero logged only 822 plate appearances as a Red Sox and was unceremoniously dumped after abrasive behavior and reports of domestic abuse against  his wife. He produced only 1.2 WAR at a total cost of 4.85M. Grade: D

(January 1996) Traded Glenn Murray, Ken Ryan and Lee Tinsley to Phillies for RHP Heathcliff Slocumb. Most Red Sox fans capable of remembering Slocumb suppress involuntary shudders at the mention of his name. Surprisingly, however, Slocumb was actually quite valuable in 1996, logging 83 innings out of the bullpen. Baseball Reference credits him with 3.8 WAR for this; Fangraphs is far less generous at 2.3. Nevertheless, Slocumb was acquired for bits of flotsam and was paid only 3.7M during his two years in Boston. For that price he provided one effective (if nerve-wracking) season as the anchor of the bullpen, before being cashed in as a trade chip for the Duke’s second-most memorable trade. Grade: B

(July 1997) Traded RHP Heathcliff Slocumb to Mariners for RHP Derek Lowe and C Jason Varitek. One of the most lopsided trades of the 90’s, and for that matter Red Sox history. Slocumb was ineffective with Seattle and bounced around the majors for a few more years. Lowe and Varitek became integral parts of two World Series championship teams and were extremely productive players for several years. Overall, the kind of trade GM’s dream of. Fortunately for Red Sox history, Duquette had one more major trick up his sleeve. Grade: A+

(November 1997) Traded RHP Carl Pavano and Tony Armas to Expos for RHP Pedro Martinez. Though Duquette’s tenure was generally marked by terrible drafting and development, give him credit for being able to sway Montreal with Pavano, a 1994 draft pick. In one of the rivalry’s enduring ironies, Armas had been acquired from the Yankees only months before for Mike Stanley, thus giving Boston a superior trade package to entice Montreal over New York. Pavano never did much with the Expos, thrived with the Marlins, bombed hilariously with the Yankees, and is still hanging on at age 35. Armas actually had a few decent seasons for the Expos, but struggled with injuries and was cooked by the time he turned 28. I don’t need to say anything about Pedro. Grade: A+

(August 1999) – Traded RHP Mark Guthrie to Cubs for RHP Rod Beck. Guthrie quickly faded into obscurity, while Beck was acquired to shore up the bullpen for a playoff run. The Cubs, though, were likely happy to have Duquette take on Beck’s swollen contract. While Beck was quite effective out of the bullpen for the next few years, it came with an 8M price tag. Beck did total 2.6 WAR, but overall, the reward was insufficient to justify the cost, especially for a reliever. Long story short, impulsive stretch-run trades for relievers are generally an unwise idea. Grade: C+

(December 1999) Traded LHP Greg Miller and SS Adam Everett to Astros for OF Carl Everett. Miller never made the majors, while Adam Everett has been about a replacement-level shortstop for most of his career. Jurassic Carl, meanwhile, put up a monster .300/.373/.587 season with 34 HR in 2000 before running himself out of town with an injury-wracked and generally misanthropic 2001. His enduring legacy, of course, was coining the nickname “Curly-Haired Boyfriend” for Globe sportswriter Dan Shaughnessy. Mostly on the strength of 2000, Everett totaled 5 WAR with Boston, for a total cost of 12.3M. Grade: CHB

(July 2000) Traded Jeff Taglienti, Jeff Frye, Brian Rose, and John Wasdin to Rockies for RHP Rolando Arrojo, RHP Rich Croushore, and 2B Mike Lansing. None of the names going to Colorado were missed. Croushore only threw 5 innings in MLB. Arrojo produced 3 WAR total over 3 years at a cost of 3.5M. Lansing, an (wait for it) aging veteran, was hideous, totaling -1.3 WAR with Boston on the hook for his 6.25M salary. Bottom line: 1.7 WAR for nearly 10M spent. Duquette’s affinity (fascination? Obsession?) with washed-up players continued to rear its head. Grade: D-

(August 2000) Traded John Curtice and Chris Reitsma to Reds for OF Dante Bichette. Curtice and Reitsma did not amount to much. Bichette was long past his prime, struggled to stay healthy and was barely league-average in the outfield, managing only an .801 OPS in his tenure with Boston. Normally you would write that off as a lose-lose and move on, except that Duquette also took on Bichette’s 7M salary for 2001. 0.5 WAR says hi. Grade: D-

(June 2001) Traded RHP Justin Duchscherer to Rangers for C Doug Mirabelli. Ugh…just ugh. True, Duchscherer has been unable to stay healthy with Oakland, but in 440 career innings he has still put up a 2.82 ERA and 336:117 K/BB ratio, producing 10.3 WAR for the A’s at a total cost of only 5.1M. Mirabelli was a replacement-level backup catcher, if that. Simply a bad evaluation of talent. Grade: F

(July 2001) Traded RHP Tomo Ohka and Rich Rundles to Expos for RHP Ugueth Urbina. Ohka and his junkball repertoire did fairly well in the easier environs of the NL, while Rundles never panned out. Good old UUU did what he was brought in to do: provide lights-out relief. Urbina compiled 80 innings of shutdown pitching for Boston, striking out 103 against 23 walks with 49 saves from 2001-2002. Total outlay: 2.3 WAR out of the bullpen for the cost of Urbina’s 6.7M contract. Grade: B+

Summary: Duquette’s trades are a mixed bag. When he fell into his old habits of lusting for old veterans, the results were predictable. The Lowe/Varitek and Pedro trades, however, were such massive steals with such long-term impact on the organization that I can’t help but think they overshadow all the small-potatoes crap ones he pulled off.

Long story short: To Duquette’s credit, he pulled off some incredibly shrewd trades, found cheap value in position player FA signings, and made smart decisions with internal contracts. The Lowe/Varitek trade, letting Clemens/Vaughn walk, and everything involving Pedro laid the foundation for the 2004 championship. At the same time, he was also crippled by his habit of throwing money at declining veteran pitchers, drafted terribly, and as a result was never quite able to build a strong 1-through-25 roster. The Red Sox teams of Duquette’s era were instead characterized by a handful of larger-than-life stars and a whole lot of journeymen. This, more than anything else, was in my opinion the culprit for the playoff futility of those Red Sox teams. The utter lack of talent from the farm system meant that he was constantly looking for more cheap scrap heap solutions to fill whatever hole was leaking water that week. I shudder to think what he would have done with $150M of financial resources to play with. Lastly, Duquette’s interactions with the media, fanbase, and even his own players ranged from eccentric at best to belligerent at worst. When times were good, this was an amusing sideshow. When times were bad, it dragged down the team and everybody along with it.

With this perspective on our immediate past, I am grateful every day for the ownership group, GM, and front office that we have running this team today. Much of the fanbase has no idea how lucky they really are to actually have competence at the head of the organization. That said, Duquette also does not deserve the venom that his name automatically seems to connote nowadays. While he certainly had his weaknesses, he also pulled off some extremely bold and aggressive baseball decisions that changed the face of the Boston Red Sox for the better. His front office was not going to lead this team to a championship, but in the end he did leave his successors the foundation for a World Series-caliber team.

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Excellent work!

Wow. Very well done look at Duquette’s tenure as the Red Sox GM… I don’t miss him running the show… Epstein may not be perfect, and he has had some rather large blunders (coughcoughLUGOcoughcough) but he has done a far better job with this team than Duquette did.

That being said, I still love the Pedro and Lowe/Varitek trades :D

by Rick Bentsen on Jun 21, 2011 12:51 PM EDT reply actions  

I think the biggest difference between Theo and Duquette is the draft.

Really, when you look at it… Theo has made plenty of moves for aging veterans that haven’t panned out (Yes, Mike Cameron, I’m looking at you right now – and gambled on more, like Brad Penny, John Smoltz, et al).

His trades have been mixed at times (Nomar for Orlando Cabrera might have been the catalyst for the 2004 World Series, and Hanley Ramirez/Anibel Sanchez might have gotten Beckett/Lowell for the 2007 World Series, but both deals have some questions to them to… nevermind deals like Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena).

The key difference, then, between the two has to be the draft and minor league player development. Buchholz, Bard, Papelpon, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lowrie, Reddick, Kalish, Navarro, Iglesias, Doubront, Anderson the fact that he held onto Lester rather than trade him for Santana (ditto Buchholz and Ellsbury, for that matter) have all seen time at the MLB level in just the last two years.

Developing Rizzo, Kelly and Fuentes to a point where they could be traded for Adrian Gonzalez and yet, our minor leagues are still stacked with the next generation of prospects we’re all excited to see (Hassan, Lin, Westmoreland, Tazawa, Coyles, Middlebrooks, and too many more to list.)

Duquette’s contributions to our 2004 World Series title cannot be overlooked, and his decision to pass on Roger Clemens seems to have been correct in hindsight. However, it certainly took someone else to finally get us to the promised land, and for that reason, Theo will always have a long leash in my book.

by AlohaSox on Jun 21, 2011 1:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Oooohhh, how I wanted Johan Santana.

So please ignore my continued drumming for Matt Kemp.

by cds7c on Jun 21, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kemp a righty? If so, he'd be a great power bat to fill RF with...

With all the Dodgers payroll issues, offering them Reddick and some other pieces might not be a bad direction to go there. Reddick certainly has potential, but Kemp is a proven slugger that could add one more big piece to our offense.

(I mean, when we’re all looking forward to Gonzo patrolling RF in interleague games to keep Papi’s bat in the line up and replace the dreadful RF production we’re getting to date, that’s just concerning.)

Of course, as last night demonstrates, clearly our offense needs the boost of one more big slugger, right? I mean, only 10 runs in one inning?

by AlohaSox on Jun 21, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have the same reaction when looking at Kemp as I get when I see Teixera

if Crawford, Lackey, and Kemp were all on the team at the same time I might have to rethink my fandom.

DFA Rev Halofan
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Official Baker of Red Sox Nation
Fear the Roar.

by TheLoneDavid on Jun 22, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

So let's compare

drafts at this point.

Theo has produced an MVP (Pedroa), a near Cy Young winner (Lester) an all start closer (Papelobon), a promising starter (Buchholz), and a very good young outfielder (Ells). Duquette produced TWO near MVP shortstops (Rameriz, Nomar) , a solid starter (Pavano) and promising starter (Anibal), an all-start third baseman (Youk) and a decent first baseman.

It seems too speculative right now to say Theo has a better record than Duquette. I love Bard and Lowrie, but it is too early to know if they are really starts, and the rest of the guys are in the minors.

by flasoxfan on Jun 24, 2011 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ramirez and Sanchez were both IFAs

plus you are forgetting role players like Lowrie, Masterson, Bard, etc. that Theo has brought in via the draft.

by BobZupcic on Jul 2, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Theo did not trade Hanley

And, I do not think he would have for Beckett…one can form their own conclusions on that but I am glad the Soxs got Beckett and Lowell

"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis

by Dave D on Jul 4, 2011 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good post.

One thing you don’t make clear, though. Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, and Jorge de la Rosa were not drafted. The first two were signed as amateur FA (like the great Sun-Woo Kim—remember him?). Jorge de la Rosa was purchased from a Mexican club (just like Tomo Okha was was purchased from a Japanese team). He had previously signed as a FA with Arizona.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 21, 2011 1:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Basically there is high risk in the FA market

but your if your core can be built from a solid draft foundation then that risk can be mitigated. Duquette never saw that, Theo has been masterful (at building a core)

by BobZupcic on Jun 21, 2011 4:53 PM EDT reply actions  

aging?

“Avery was emblematic of Duquette’s worst habit: a penchant for signing ineffective aging pitchers on the cheap to fill out the starting rotation behind Pedro.”

The guy was 27 at the time!

by RickD on Jun 21, 2011 5:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Avery threw 229 innings at age 21 for the Braves

253 at age 22.
236 at age 23.
Shortly thereafter he was cooked and never close to the same.

He might have been 27 by the time Duquette laid eyes on him but his arm might as well have aged in dog years.

by L33to II on Jun 21, 2011 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was considered a very old 27 at the time

and it was widely discussed. He threw a lot of innings at a young age.

by flasoxfan on Jun 24, 2011 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

your grade for Manny is ridiculous

C+?

Definitely letting your emotions rule the day. The World Series MVP and best right-handed hitter in the history of the team merits only a C+. :P

by RickD on Jun 21, 2011 5:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Grading the contract within the perspective of Duquette's overall job performance

Nobody disputes Manny could hit. Unfortunately he also had to play defense and cost the team so many runs there that it canceled out a good chunk of what he did with the bat.

By either B-R or Fangraphs WAR he was really only close to being worth his contract from 2001-2003. Add in the massive financial burden, length, and Manny being Manny, and those are a lot of negatives. However for all that he was still almost unmatched at the plate and played a large part on the WS teams. Thus I felt C+ was an appropriate compromise.

by L33to II on Jun 21, 2011 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

No Manny

and the Red Sox don’t get to Game 7 of the ALCS in 2003 and win the WS in 2004.

Getting over the hump for this franchise was critical. Without Manny we don’t do it.

by flasoxfan on Jun 24, 2011 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Manny's batting numbers were HOF stats with the Sox..

He was hitting well until he was traded in 2008.

Manny contract wasn’t crippling to the Sox as let’s say Vernon Wells, Barry Zito or Travis ?Haffner’s contracts were to their organizations. Actually, the Manny contract that may sink a baseball franchise, is the Dodgers.. If Manny behaved, and wanted to play with the Sox after 2008, the Sox would probably picked up his option..

If surly behavior is a factor in acquiring a player, then their stats, then Derek Lowe was a failure and a bad trade for the Sox, which is far from the case..

Manny Ramirez was an A+ acquisition. It is like saying Babe Ruth was a B- acquisition for the MFY, given he was overweight, partoed all the time and missed most of the 1925 season because of his issues.

He was a huge reason why the Sox was a major contender in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007. Whether he was taking PEDs as a Sox, his batting numbers some of the best in MLB history.

by superferret on Jun 24, 2011 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

No Way

 There is no way Manny came even close to “giving up” 10% of the runs he created with his bat. I also believe you are letting your personal feelings for Manny get in the way of your grade. OK, Manny had is faults, but he deserves an A or A-.

by Scoop1981 on Jul 1, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Manny grade is ridiculous and he knows it.

The contract itself had numerous deferments in it and was valued closer to $141M by all parties involved so obviously he can’t even keep his story straight on what kind of financial burden it was to the Red Sox.
Boston signed the best RHH in all of baseball at the time and he anchored their offense for several years. There was nothing wrong with the length as he was in his prime and his run of success for the Red Sox was exceptional. Manny remained durable and productive for the vast majority of the contract as the team won TWO World Series.
By most accounts, the contract remains one of the best Free Agent signings of a superstar player for any MLB team over the last 35 years of Free Agency.

by Butch Hobson's elbo chips on Jun 23, 2011 6:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Manny's defense

I know Manny’s saber-stats are terrible, but having watched him live and on TV for years and years, I thought he learned to play LF rather well at Fenway. His quick release generated a lot of OF assists (among tops in the league many years, if memory serves). He was a nightmare in bigger outfields, but we fortunately play half our games at home.

I think Manny’s defense and distractions might grade him out to a B/B+ instead of an A+, but he was definitely worth more than a C+. Manny and Ortiz powered the Red Sox offense through two World Series wins.

Pedro should be considered one of, if not the most dominant pitcher in history. He put up ridiculous numbers during the steroid era.

Lastly, where’s Trot Nixon on this list? Was he drafted prior to Duquette?

Excellent piece and enjoyable read. Kudos.

"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on Jun 23, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, Lou Gorman

Should someone do a Lou Gorman retrospective?

by Scoop1981 on Jul 1, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I go with Jerry Remy

Remy said on numerous occasions that he considered Manny above average in Fenway and below average on the road. This from a former player and someone that saw every game Manny played with the Red Sox. Good enough for me.

by Scoop1981 on Jul 1, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Manny was an A+...

  He was a pain in a half, a surly teammate. However he was part of one of the toughest 3-4 in batting lineup history, up there with Ruth and Gehrig, which is enough to make it an A+. He caused alot of problems for many AL pitching staffs and fear to a team that the Sox needed to instill fear into, The MFYs. He helped carry the team in 2004 and especially 2005 when the pitching staff was in shambles..

  Manny won’t go to the HOF for a long time, but he will be in the Hall of Fame one of these days, and the numbers he put up wit the Sox, are pretty incredible.

As much as his UZR sucks, his fielding was more quixotic, and he was probably a little bit better than his UZR. However, the guy was incredibly feared hitter…

by superferret on Jun 24, 2011 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is awesome.

These were the teams I watched as a kid.

I’m actually going to defend the Jose Offerman singing. From 95-99 he averaged a 386. OBP and, according to BR, 2.7 WAR a year. Not spectacular by any means but more than serviceable.

by ritz on Jun 22, 2011 10:45 AM EDT reply actions  

True, Offerman probably looked like a good signing at the time

However I decided it was more straightforward to grade signings by how they turned out, not how they looked at the time.

After all, Renteria and Lugo had great stats in the years leading up to their signings. but I don’t think anyone will be stepping up to say those decisions worked out well.

by L33to II on Jun 22, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not really

Everyone knew Offerman was a poor defender. The Sox clearly overpaid for him.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 22, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not much Theo could have done in the Lugo/Renteria signings

Except to have kept Orlando Cabrera.

"I don't put any foreign substances on the baseball. Everything I use is from the good old U.S.A."

JVSM

Pedroya Lova

by Dustin's #1 Fan on Jun 22, 2011 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Could have tried shorter, less expensive deals.

DFA Rev Halofan
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Official Baker of Red Sox Nation
Fear the Roar.

by TheLoneDavid on Jun 22, 2011 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Theo got good compensation for OC

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 23, 2011 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Theo was trying to get a Jeter copy..

My guess is that he was willing to pay top dollar for a decent fielding SS with a high OBP, and he didn’t get a decent fielding SS, with high OBP. Lugo came to the Sox, with the big sales pitch of being a leadoff hitter, which was a complete disaster, (luckily he was on a good hitting team)

I don’t think keeping Cabrera was an option, given some of the anecdotes about his time in Boston. Excluding this year, I think if any SS that Theo should had tried hard to keep was Alex Gonzalez, because of his stellar defensive skills.

by superferret on Jun 24, 2011 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Are Boston signings

at short jinxed?

Theo has been no better.

by flasoxfan on Jun 24, 2011 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Your REVISIONIST article.

You can stop with your revisionist bull, David Eckstein was never released on waivers. He had to be put through waivers in August that year so the Red Sox could open up a 40 man Roster spot for Lou Merloni (who had returnined from a stint in Japan) to be added to the Red Sox MAJOR LEAGUE ROSTER to play 3B. Eckstein was staying at Pawtucket where he was struggling at the plate as the Red Sox future 2B. NO ONE in the organization was looking to get rid of him as he had won numerous awards moving up through the system,
Mike Port made a decision to protect young pitchers and swap a proven Major League infielder for a 5’7 AAA second baseman on the 40 man roster. The Angels, who were out of contention, made a surprise bid on Eck because one of their scouts thought he could provide depth for them at Second Base. The Angels grabbed a lil known reliever named Ben Weber the same month through the same process. It’s what happens when GOOD teams have their depth picked at on the waiver wire and in Rule 5 drafts by crappy teams.

Hillenbrand was a full time Catcher who blew out his kneee in a collision on July 4th one season at Trenton (I was there watching…he was hitting well over .300) and when he finally retiuned, he was forced to rehab at 3B and Boston scout Frank Malzone brought it up in a November Organizational meeting recommending they try Hillenbrand at 3B the following Spring Training. Jimy Williams eventually liked what he saw and kept him there.

Did I miss the mention of the Red Sox draft pick that won a NL Batting Title and later a World Series ring with the Giants? Freddy Sanchez ring a bell? He holds the RedSox all-time “single game” record for put outs at third base.
Garciapara-A.Everett-Eckstein-Sanchez all drafted by the Red Sox.

And from they drafted an outfielder by the name of Lew Ford who became a productive reserve after getting traded to Minnesota Twins.
Reliever Josh Hancock was decapitated in an accident while a member of the St Louis bullpen. .
Isn’t Kelly Shoppach still a Major League Catcher??
Mike Maroth was a starting pitcher with Detroit & St Louis over 6 years in the Majors.
1994 Draft Pick Carl Pavano is still pitching in the Majors.

Interesting that the development of Trot Nixon is ignored because he was drafted 6 mos before and played a total of ZERO games in the system before Duquette took over the team. Jeff Suppan treated the same way even though it was Duquette that fast tracked him to AA/AAA and brought him to Bosron to pitch as a 20yr old.

And we certainly wouldn’t want to give him any credit for a 1991 Draft Pick named Ron Mahay who flamed out as a CF but was CONVERTED by Duquette’s coaches into a Pitcher and has pitched 16 years with 8 MLB teams and currently still sitting by the phone as a 40yr old LH reliever.

And the pre-selected Draft Picks you sorted out were only a part of the Minor Leaguers at the time. Duquette’s foray into the Dominican Republic and the Asian talent was well ahead of 90% of Major Leagues teams at the time. A mixed bag of results but one of the reasons the Farm System was ranked 6th in all of Baseball in the late 1990’s. We were GIVEN Tomo Ohka by a Japanese club after the Red Sox had transferred some willing journeymen over to Japan. Ohko was 15-0 in his first year in American splitting between both AA & AAA that year. Jin Ho Cho & Sun Wioo Kim were added to the systemamong other Koreans. Hanley Ramirez, Anabel Sanchez, Frank Francisco (all still playing).

And the system had it’s share of highly regarded prospects who flamed out….Dernell Stenson (RIP), Wilton Veras, Donnie Sadler (an opening day starter one year) and career damaging injuries to Steve Lomasney, Brian Rose and Juan Pena who all reached either Pawtucket or Boston as very highly regarded prospects. Infamous Robinson Checo was a Dominican who was Japanese League ROY and whom the Yankees coveted at the time.

The upgrades to the minor leagues facilities and stronger franchise owners was exceptional following his arrival in 1994. Maybe if you had to sit in piece of sh!t stadiums in Lynchburg or New Britain or run-down Winter Haven you would relaize what a complete 180% turnaround for the Boston minor leaguers to be playing in new parks at Trenton, Augusta, Lowell or Fort Myers in the mid to late 1990’s and then Pawtucket was finally renovated. And making sure ever level of the system had their own Pitching & Hitting coaches (this was not done by Boston front office before Duquette) in addition to usual roving instructors throughout the system. He INITIATED the Red Sox Dominican summer league programs establishing a presence down there that was year round. He forced coaches and scouts to work the Domican Winter League mining for talent. David Jauss was coaching there when he convinced Duquette that a discarded Twins player named David Ortiz had enough First Base defense in his glove to be worth bringing to Boston even though they had already signed pig boy Jeremy Giambi as a DH/1b type. .

And there was the fact that in the PRE-MONEYBALL hysteria, the Red Sox preached the value of getting on-base to it’s minor league hitters at every level….and that wasn’t just by Hits + conventional walks. Eckstein, Shoppach & Youkilis were ALL among the top 1 or 2% in the entire minor leagues in getting HIT BY PITCHES. That is not an accident.
But when Duquette discussed sought unconventional sabermatics advice from people, he was suddenly accused of talking to nutty water meter readers according to the Boston Press.

How about the integration of the Red Sox front office & Coaching in an effort to change the most historically racist organization in Baseball. Duquette promoted the first african american woman to Asst GM position (Elaine Wedington). He had Jim Rice as a hitting coach and returned Tommy Harper back to the Boston system after previous issues. Minor League MANAGERS like Demarlo Hale, Gary Jones and Luis Aguayo were added to the system during his term.

And why don’t you go back and replace Pedro Martinez statistics with an average #1 starter from that time and see where the Red Sox Pitching staff was ranked in most of those years. They still stood among the best in the League.

by Butch Hobson's elbo chips on Jun 23, 2011 6:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Jeez you're angry

are you actually Dan Duquette? You have some good points, but why do you have to take that tone? It makes it pretty unpleasant to discuss, on this here discussion forum.

by wolf9309 on Jun 23, 2011 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Tone? You must have the adobe voice reader program.

Yawn…the hack wrote an article full of inaccurate comments regarding events that occurred. He ought to take his medicine like a man (or at least an older teen which he appears to be) and go back and REWRITE the whole damn thing. And this time do at least some fact checking. Pick up an old Media Guide and check out what the Farm System looked like…talk to someone who was over 21 at the time of these events.

I don’t have to disagree with his “opinions”. They are basically meaningless since he can’t back them up and he knows that some of his conclusions differ drastically from actual events. .
I disagree with his attempt to intentionally LIE about factual events that occurred in the Red Sox organization at the time. It’s clowns like this that makes other Red Sox fans EMBARASSED.

by Butch Hobson's elbo chips on Jun 23, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes tone

you can write in a certain tone; it’s not restricted to a voice, it’s also a literary device. There’s no need to be a condescending ass in your replies.

by wolf9309 on Jun 23, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can you detect what I am whispering at you now?

It’s not my responsibility to dumb it down for you. Go read “DirtDog” if you want a 2nd grade discussion full of fabricated comments.

I am glad you consider yourself the authority on determining what TONE others are writing. Congratulations.

by Butch Hobson's elbo chips on Jun 23, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Knock it off..

He wrote some very valid points… There was no ad hominem in his critique, and the first ad hominem is by you.

Talk about tone

by superferret on Jun 24, 2011 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nope, but the ass is still coming through loud and clear.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Jun 23, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

He might not be

but having spent several years of study on similar subjects I am. Your tone is one standoffish and blatantly agressive. It shows that you will not accept arguments against yourself, and to me, reflects some insecurities about yourself. Have a nice day.

DFA The Tampa Bay Rays
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Fear the Roar.

by TheLoneDavid on Jun 23, 2011 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're absolutely right, I apologize for omitting the momentous events of Josh Hancock's accidental decapitation.

I guess I should be flattered though that you spewed a couple million words at me after being registered on SBN for more than 2 years and being virtually invisible the entire time until now, according to your profile.

I don’t think you’d appreciate a stranger jumping onto SOSH and frothing at the mouth that your college basketball thread was “meaningless” and “embarrassing” (two r’s btw) would you?

Lastly you seem pretty concerned that I am trying to somehow brainwash people on this site with some warped demented vision of past Red Sox teams. You do realize that although most people here use screen names and SBN is intertwined with social media platforms, posters here are in their 20’s, 30’s, 40’s, or older? I am willing to bet that most regulars at OTM remember the players and events I mentioned because they watched it firsthand. If I was claiming that Dan Duquette drank the blood of babies and urinated in the skull of Smokey Joe Wood while cackling hysterically, nobody here would hesitate to call me out. Most of us are here for intelligent discussion and debate on a wide variety of subjects related to this team and organization. Suffice to say you aren’t making a good impression for yourself on that front.

by L33to II on Jun 23, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

He raised some valid points, but as has been noted, not in the appropriate tone.

Well reasoned response.

by AlohaSox on Jun 23, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

But

you don’t seem to understand that your post is a threat to the very existence of truth, justice, and the American Way!!

< /snark>
This was pretty funny:“drank the blood of babies and urinated in the skull of Smokey Joe Wood while cackling hysterically”

Dead babies – it always comes back to dead babies.

by flasoxfan on Jun 26, 2011 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL

He said Lew Ford.

by ritz on Jun 23, 2011 12:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Yep

Lew Ford = David Murphy.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Jun 23, 2011 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting

A great post

A couple of comments:.
1. How anyone can argue that the Ramirez signing wasn’t an A+ signing is beyond me. There is no World Championship without it. There were distractions, but the Red Sox of today are partially of a function of winning in 2004. That championship alone has fundementally changed this franchise in ways that benefit it to this day. You suggest that this couldn’t be predicted at the time Manny was signed, but in fact that is that possibility that makes the acquisition of players like Manny and Pedro so important.
2, Duquette was always trying to roll the dice with a hurt pitcher who he hoped would rebound. They didn’t all work out, but at the time I thought that they were a good risk for the most part. As you note, they didn’t work.
3. What strikes me about this list were that the best decisions Duquette made were the moves he DIDN"T make. Mo Vaugn, Roger Clemons.
4. It is worth remembering that Hanley was turned into Josh Beckett.

What strikes me is that Duquette got most of the big decisions right. Not signing Clemons and Vaughn (and he was ripped for not signing him), the risky signing of Pedro and the Manny signing all were the right ones.

He deserves substantial credit for the 2004 Championship.

by flasoxfan on Jun 24, 2011 2:32 AM EDT reply actions  

Good points

1. In regards to Manny, let me say first he was and still is one of my favorite players. I still have on my computer the clip of the walkoff HR against K-Rod in 2007, which as a sidenote remains the most epically crushed home run at Fenway I have ever seen. I guess it rests on one’s personal opinion of whether his contributions to 2004/07 were worth the massive overpay of the contract. If so, it’s funny how people always say that Drew’s GS against Carmona doesn’t give him a pass for his contract. Anyway when I looked at RS payrolls for Manny’s time here I noticed that from 2003-05 (coincidentally when he first got put on waivers and/or it became plain that the FO wanted to dump his contract) Manny’s salary represented 18.4% of the team payroll on average. An equivalent player on this year’s team would be making $29 million. Once Gonzalez’s extension kicks in he will be the highest paid player at ~22M/yr and even that (assuming payroll stays about the same) will only be 13-14% of payroll. Remember also that the offensive environment in Manny’s time was much different. For most of Manny’s time here he settled in at around a 150-155 wRC+ (a lot higher in 02, a lot worse in 07). Youkilis put up a 160 last year before getting injured. Two great hitters, but if Youk hypothetically sucked at defense, would you want to pay him 29 million? In the end it’s not my money so I don’t really care one way or another, but watching the FO wriggle and thrash under Manny’s contract like it was a fat chick sitting on their chest, it was clear how the organization felt about it. Then again flags fly forever so I guess calling it an A is a defensible argument.

2. There’s nothing wrong with taking risks on hurt/buy-low pitchers who might rebound. The reason I was very critical of Duquette for loving that so much is that you don’t want to be counting on those project pitchers to contribute, especially when (assumedly) you are trying to build a team that can go deep in the playoffs and/or beat the Yankees over 162 games. You sign the John Smoltzes and Andrew Millers in the hope that you strike gold, after you already have a strong starting rotation built up. If they work, great, if they don’t, nothing lost. You don’t sign them when the rotation consists of Pedro, Wakefield, and three empty chairs. Look at the Yankees this year. Sure Colon is doing good, but they never wanted to be throwing out him, Freddy Garcia, and Ivan Nova 3 out of 5 days in the AL East. Hughes got hurt, Pettitte retired, and they got caught with their pants down on Cliff Lee. Injury, bad luck, poor planning. If Cashman had said at the end of 2010 “We feel good about Colon, Garcia, and Nova as our 3-4-5 against the Red Sox”, Yankees fans would have disemboweled him.

3. Definitely, and I give him a lot of credit for that. Again, I have no idea if he produced some crazy 10-year projection spreadsheet and decided that according to b +/ 4ac + 8x, Vaughn and Clemens were not worth resigning. Or if he just said “Fuck those guys” and moved on. Either way it was for the better, and he got absolutely torn apart in the media for it.

4. True however since the trade was made under a different FO I decided not to mention it (or Fossum / de la Rosa for Curt Schilling) specifically.

by L33to II on Jun 24, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Funny about #2

but whenever Theo tries that he gets lambasted for it (see Penny, Brad or Smoltz, John)

by BobZupcic on Jul 2, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we all thought those were good gambles.

Neither, however, worked out for the Sox. Penny’s success since leaving (and going back to the NL) was a bit frustrating to see…

So… here’s a fun question… if they really go to a realignment that includes the DH for the NL (that is seriously being discussed, right?), what happens to all those pitchers like Penny that clearly couldn’t get through nine hitters in an AL line up. (Or, for that matter, a deal like Cliff Lee, which clearly has more value in today’s pitcher hitting NL line ups…)

by AlohaSox on Jul 3, 2011 4:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

What is the value

of the 2004 Championship? My guess is the number runs into the Billions. Your point about Drew in this fashion reminds me of the Mastercard Commercial:
.260 hitter: 15 million
ALCS game winning hit: priceless

With respect to Manny, and to Adrian, and to players like Arod and Pujols the truth is you always overpay for them. The odds of a player getting hurt in a 7 year contract are very high. But without such players it is almost impossible to win a championship.

I agree with you on 2 and 3, though I think it is worth remembering that I don’t think Duquette had the same resources available to him that Theo has had. In some ways he had no choice.

Again, great post.

by flasoxfan on Jun 24, 2011 11:53 AM EDT reply actions  

Resources

Got LOTS of resources available to him!

by CoachKennyBuford on Jul 4, 2011 2:50 PM EDT reply actions  

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