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Theo and Shortstop's

In 03 and 04, Theo made some brilliant moves, picking up Walker, Mueller, Millar, Ortiz, Schilling  Foulke, and others. The best might have been having the courage to trade Nomar at the right time, for Cabrera.  Orlando settled things down and played a huge part in the 04 Championship.  Then, Theo,or management, undid the great move by letting Cabrera walk. Had Orlando been kept, he would have given the team years of professional play at the position. He would have brought a solid bat that would have been even better at Fenway.  He would have averaged 40 doubles a  year playing against the Monster  . And, he is still going stong today.   Daniel Bard turned out to be the compensation for Cabrera.  This was a stroke of good fortune that  scouts were able to unearth Bard.   But even having Bard today does not measure up to the value Cabrera would have provided over the last 6 years . His hitting would have been better still, if he had played at Fenway. Figure on 40 doubles a year as he could reach the Monster easily. At least 20 more HR's over his career . Signing him long term would have prevented the Merry go round of SS's we have seen since and  would have saved the team millions in paying other players to play for other teams.  ie: Renteria and Lugo.  I think Theo saw Renteira on the FA mkt and decided that he was the better player then Cabrera, which he was.  Based on that thinking, losing Cabrera would not have been so bad.   But after giving up on Edgar after one year, Theo erred once again, costing the team millions.  Renteria, in 05, while adjusting to a new league and the Fenway infield, did commit alot of errors.  He still knocked in 70 runs, scored 100, had 39 doubles, and batted .270. Those numbers would have been much better in the years that followed, had the fans left him alone, and  management, or Theo did not lose confidence in this 2000 hit plus SS.  It would have atoned for the Cabrera mistake .  Instead, he was run out of town where he continued his fine career.  One of the great clutch hitters,,he delivered two Series clinching hits for other teams, and is still going stong . Shippng out Renteria led to an even worse fiasco.  Julio Lugo . I liked Lugo, but once he got to the Sox, he was not the same player, although he was the SS for the 07 champions.  He was let go, with the Sox again, paying the rest of his contract.  Bad move in letting Cabrera go,but would have been shrewd had he kept Renteria.   Good move to get Cabrera.  Bad move to let him go.  Good move getting Renteria, terribble move letting him go.  Worse still, was paying his big contract to play for the Braves.  Lugo was just a bad move that cost the team millions.  Even today, the SS position is unsettled.  Iglesius can't hit, and Scutaro is to injury prone.  Lets hope they don't continue the SS shuttle out of town game by giving up on Lowrie.

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I decided to look it up

Just how bad has the SS position been since 05….here ya go

http://www.fangraphs.com/teams.aspx?pos=ss&lg=all&stats=bat&type=8&season=2010&month=0&season1=2005

Try not looking at the top team for your own health

by BobZupcic on May 10, 2011 12:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Knowing what I do now, I wouldn't

and how well Anibal Sanchez is pitching the last couple of years isn’t helping me feel better about not having Hanley.

by wolf9309 on May 10, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its probably a wash

at least in past value, the problem is – Hanley is still providing value and should for years to come

Still the 2007 Trophy helps offset that some

by BobZupcic on May 10, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

2007 does ease the pain

I just can’t help but think that even in 2007, the 5.2 WAR he was worth over Lugo’s value might’ve well ended in the same result…

by wolf9309 on May 10, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Assuming we would have had something to offset

Beckett’s 6.5 and Lowell’s 5.2

top of the rotation starters and good fielding, good hitting 3Bmen don’t exactly grow on trees

by BobZupcic on May 10, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess Youk

would have stayed at 3B solving one problem, but that still opens a hole at 1B

by BobZupcic on May 10, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas

by Lloyd Christmas on May 11, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

WAR Comparison

Just for kicks

Since the Trade

Ramirez (28.6), Sanchez (7.1) = 35.7
Beckett (20.5), Lowell (12.5) = 33.0

by BobZupcic on May 10, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh.

Well, do we call that a wash? Or do we count WS trophies?

by steel sox on May 10, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

well

WS Trophy vs. Future Talent (Fish win in a landslide)

by BobZupcic on May 10, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

We will never know how Ramarez’s talent would have affected the outcome of other years besides 07,or now, and in the future.

by Robert57 on May 10, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right now Lowrie is playing better than Hanley

but I would love to have Anibal over Lackey.

DFA Rev Halofan
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Official Baker of Red Sox Nation
Fear the Roar.

by TheLoneDavid on May 10, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lowrie is scary good

I’d really really hoped that Lackey would turn things around this year. And while he’s showed flashes of brilliance at times, nowhere near as consistent as he should be. I’d actually forgotten that we’d had Anibal…. After his performance on Sunday… I really wish we had him still. :) Especially since he’s been consistently that nasty.

by Rick Bentsen on May 10, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ouch...

Not to mention the Intangibles Gap.

"Laser show. So relax."
I am unable to certify that this team contains an acceptable level of feces.

by nuthinboutnuthin on May 10, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

in all fairness theo did not make that trade

that trade was made during his gorilla suit vacation,.

by brady12mvp3 on May 10, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess that settles the argument about the Hanley trade. Sox lose! Another thing that is impossible to know, but worth considering is how much better those stats would be playing half his games in Fenway?

by Robert57 on May 10, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

wOBA is

but it’s an even adjustment for everyone- so the performance of lefty pull hitters affect the park adjustment as much as righty pull hitters. Something like the Green Monster, where the dimensions are so radically different, it seems to me, would throw those off a bit. Don’t know for sure though.

by wolf9309 on May 10, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

C’mon Dan Shaughnessy Robert57, please get your facts straight. The following statement is false:

Daniel Bard turned out to be the compensation for Cabrera.

Jacoby Ellsbury and Jed Lowrie were compensation for letting OC walk. That’s win for the Sox.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on May 10, 2011 1:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Ellsbury and the Jedi >>>>>>>>>>>> Orlando Cabrera.

by Rick Bentsen on May 10, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry about that. Ellsbury has had a couple of good years and was injured,missing an entire season. He is starting to look good again. Lowrie looks great, but that is assuming the Sox will keep him and let him fullfill his promise.He has also been fragile. If both players continue to play well and avoid injury, it is a win for the Sox. But, as we speak today, it has not been determined. With OC, you are talking about 5 to 6 years of consistently good play.

by Robert57 on May 10, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh my god...

ENOUGH with this “Lowrie is injury prone” horseshit! Lowrie BROKE HIS WRIST and the Boston medical staff told him to KEEP PLAYING! Do you have any idea what that could have done to him? If anything, I would say that Lowrie is one tough motherfucker, playing through what had to be some pretty incredible pain.

DFA Rev Halofan
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Official Baker of Red Sox Nation
Fear the Roar.

by TheLoneDavid on May 10, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thank you

Certain mainstream media started and continue to this day the misinformation that Lowrie’s one mismanaged injury and the resultant surgery makes him fragile. Nthese guys ruin more careers with their cavalier muckraking. Thanks for keeping it off this site.

by GerryT on May 15, 2011 2:41 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Agreed. That medical staff has not been the best. They said Jason Bay had a bad knee, which wasn’t true.

by Robert57 on May 10, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

They said they saw wear on his knee that kept them from wanting to commit to him long term

you can’t really say that’s not true. They weren’t saying he was going to never be able to play another baseball game because of bad knees.

Not that I’m arguing that the medical staff hasn’t made terrible decisions, just that wasn’t really necessarily one of them.

by wolf9309 on May 10, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

A big correction here
I think Theo saw Renteira on the FA mkt and decided that he was the better player then Cabrera, which he was. Based on that thinking, losing Cabrera would not have been so bad. But after giving up on Edgar after one year, Theo erred once again, costing the team millions.
I liked Lugo, but once he got to the Sox, he was not the same player, although he was the SS for the 07 champions.

Except for that fact that Theo didn’t trade Renteria. Jed Hoyer and Ben Cherington traded him when they were Co-GMs during Theo’s hiatus. On a side note, they also engineered the Hanley/Anibal for Beckett/Lowell trade when Theo was not with the organization.

I would’ve liked to see Orlando stick around and Lugo turned out terrible noone can deny that. But you said yourself, you thought Edgar was a better player than Orlando and you also said you liked Lugo (presumably before he got here). At least with Orlando they ended up with Bard and they also got two picks that got them Lowrie and Ellsbury. Which given their roles on the team now is a pretty great return.

by The Name is Dalton on May 10, 2011 2:41 PM EDT reply actions  

I’m not sure who was responsible for giving away Renteria. Whoever it was,he shouldn’t have done it.

by Robert57 on May 10, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just told you who was responsible.

It was Hoyer and the “Gang of Four”. And if you weren’t sure, you probably shouldn’t have gone on a tirade with that key fact being one of the main points supporting your whole premise.

by The Name is Dalton on May 10, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

How do you know Theo wasn’t calling the shots behind a curtain. You don’t know any better then I do. If it was the gang of four who executed these transactions, they sure did alot of damage in a short period of time.

by Robert57 on May 10, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

And furthermore, my premise was about poor judgement on behalf of Theo and/or ownership at the time. It had nothing to do with future draft picks.Getting lucky with some draft picks in the future does not excuse turning SS into a mine field when they had OC, Edgar, and Hanley, and managed to lose every one of them.That is horseshit management!

by Robert57 on May 10, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Future draft picks are part of the plan

Because their value often outweighs the value of the aging FA player. Smart teams horde picks and develop players.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on May 10, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

When I alluded to premise...

…I guess I got thrown off when I read “Theo and Shortstop’s” and where you point to Theo as the one who erred, and Theo as the one who thought Renteria was a better player (which you agreed with btw) and Theo was the one who lost faith in him and shipped him out. If your purpose was to blame the organization as a whole, than say so clearly. But I don’t believe that was your purpose when you started this, personally because I believe you are intelligent enough to make that distinction if that is what you meant.

I’m not saying they handled SS well. Of course it hasn’t been good management in hindsight, I never said otherwise. I wanted them to keep Cabrera because he was a spark plug and a great clubhouse guy.

My whole point was that you should be placing your blame on everyone in management, not just Theo. You don’t do this in your orginal post so you can’t really get miffed because someone points out actual facts that go against what you’re presenting. If you present this as “Sox Management has failed at managing SS position” it is a non-issue and I agree completely.

How do you know Theo wasn’t calling the shots behind a curtain.

You’re being stubborn, and trying to convince yourself that the Red Sox let Theo run the organization when he didn’t even work for the organization…all because you don’t like him. You can believe whatever you want, I will believe what facts until you or someone else can show me otherwise.

by The Name is Dalton on May 10, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

My premise was, keeping OC was the surest and safest route. Getting Edgar, and keeping him would have been even better. Losing Hanley and Sanchez was a mistake.Hanley may have been a home grown future HOFer. He could have played LF, if Renteria was there. It might be the reason Theo took off. The organization wanted to get rid of Edgar and Hanley. Hence, the Gorilla suit. If that is the case, i can’t blame Theo,but these are things we will never know for sure. It’s not that I don’t like Theo. His moves brought the 04 title, and it should have been 03, too. My problem is that after 04, he began to make alot of mistakes, even when taking into consideration, the 07 title. He did a great job in convincing mgmt to take on A-Gon and CC. However, he has left the team with many deficiencies, which is why they can’t reach .500.

by Robert57 on May 11, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Theo is not the reason this team is below .500, he has NOTHING to do with it. A weird combination of slumps and bad luck has kept us down. It’s not because of Theo that we can’t hit with RISP, it’s not Theo’s fault that our perennial CYA candidate starting pitcher Lester dropped an egg last night or the Pedroia is in the middle of one of the worst slumps of his career.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on May 11, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Robert, you sound like a conspiracy theorist/revisionist and your arguments shift like the Sands of the Sinai when confronted with an alternate viewpoint that cites facts not opinions

Ok, Robert I am glad you post here (I mean that). I am not glad that you are so unopen to reproof and correction when presented facts. You are a fan and entitled to your opinions! I get that – but your presuppositions do not hold water to the scrutiny of facts. That is why you are being challenged on this site. It is ok to hold to your opinions even when shown another way – after all, for all we know the world really is not round but is flat – we will never really know for sure.

But, we do both cheer for the home team and that is a common point – past that I think we do not agree on too much. I am surprised you view 2007 as an aberration. My view is pretty simple: Theo and Co builds a team that should win 95 games and get to the post season; after that (and he says this himself) it is timing and luck to win the WS.

You think this team has many deficencies – it was the most balanced team going into 2011 and that is the FO’s hard work to corect the deficencies. You are calling for a change – I do not want the FO to go – neither do I want Tito to go (although sometimes he is maddening). But, I do understand your reasoning for a shakeup. If there is a shakeup, I imagine it will not be until after 31 July.

Then, Theo,or management, undid the great move by letting Cabrera walk.
How do you know Theo wasn’t calling the shots behind a curtain.
Losing Hanley and Sanchez was a mistake.Hanley may have been a home grown future HOFer. He could have played LF, if Renteria was there. It might be the reason Theo took off. The organization wanted to get rid of Edgar and Hanley. Hence, the Gorilla suit. If that is the case, i can’t blame Theo,but these are things we will never know for sure.
I’m not sure who was responsible for giving away Renteria. Whoever it was,he shouldn’t have done it.
My problem is that after 04, he began to make alot of mistakes, even when taking into consideration, the 07 title…<However, he has left the team with many deficiencies, which is why they can’t reach .500.

"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis

by Dave D on May 11, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Sigh

Orlando Cabrera is a career .315 wOBA hitter rated below average by two of the 3 main defensive metrics. Suggesting he was some kind of Nomar-lite that slipped through the FO’s fingers is revisionist history at best.

Renteria was putrid on the field in 2005: atrocious defensively, replacement level offensively, and on the hook for 3 more years. This while vocally expressing his displeasure (to put it mildly) at playing in Boston. In the next three years with Atlanta and Detroit he put up one strong year, one excellent year that was heavily BABIP-inflated, and in 2008 collapsed to even worse levels than 2005.\\

I would still take Beckett/Lowell for Hanley so to claim he was “lost” is utterly illogical. It is also pure revisionist history to imply that Hanley’s current offensive performance was already clear when the trade was made. At the time of the trade, he had seemingly stalled in the minors a la Lars Anderson. While his raw potential was never in doubt, it is foolhardy to think that Hoyer and Cherington looked into their crystal ball and saw 2008-2010 Hanley swinging the bat on one side, Beckett/Lowell on the other side, and decided to execute the trade.

OP not only seems to be allergic to facts but incapable of arguing in an objective manner.

by L33to II on May 10, 2011 3:53 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I'm fairly certain that in a drunken driving bender Theo and Tito sideswiped his mirrors off or something.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on May 10, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought they took away his "Enter" key. . . .

Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell

by lone1c on May 10, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking of SS's

Iglesias will get his first start tonight.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/10713/francona-lowrie-sick-iglesias-to-start

"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas

by Lloyd Christmas on May 11, 2011 3:51 PM EDT reply actions  

There are lots of stories about OC

He has the reputation of being a bad teammate. Also, he has moved around a lot since 2004.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on May 11, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I remember hearing repeated gossip about that

Obviously never publicly confirmed nor do I recall hearing the particular player whose wife/gf/whatever was involved…but the rumors started filtering out soon after he left.

by L33to II on May 11, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

/Obligatory '07 WS post

Frankly I’d be happy either way.

DFA Rev Halofan
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Official Baker of Red Sox Nation
Fear the Roar.

by TheLoneDavid on May 13, 2011 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

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