If Dice-K Continues To Struggle, Red Sox Could Call On Old Friend Pedro Martinez
by Jared Stegall on Apr 14, 2011 8:00 AM EDT
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On Monday night, the Boston Red Sox faced the Tampa Bay Rays to begin a three-game series after taking two of three from the New York Yankees, looking for some extra momentum. They didn't get that on Monday night, all because of one person many Red Sox fans have grown to despise: Daisuke Matsuzaka.
After coming off a solid outing against Cleveland, Daisuke tanked as he gave up seven runs on eight hits in only two innings of work. Daisuke had a typical Daisuke day though as he basically thew batting practice fastballs to the a slumping Rays offense, who made the Red Sox look like the Royals (not this years Royals).
While many fans such as myself have refrained from pushing the big red panic button, I couldn't resist pushing the smaller one that said "Dice-K Is Done" after Monday's performance. While I'm more skeptical than anyone on his trade value or Theo's ability to just cut ties with him, something needs to happen.
The only problem in the instance is that the Red Sox just don't have a guy that could fill that spot in the rotation.
One could argue that a guy like Alfredo Aceves, who has a great track record as a pitcher could be converted into a starter, as the Red Sox have attempted to do over the past month. I propose a better option that hardly anyone is talking about: former Red Sox pitcher and three-time Cy Young Award winner Pedro Martinez.
In a recent interview, Martinez told the New York Times that he is preparing to make yet another comeback after taking last year off. Pedro reiterated that it would take him about a month to get in game shape if a team came calling. In that interview, Martinez was asked which teams he would prefer to return to the league with:
"I’d probably have to say the Red Sox. I would like to win a World Series in the National League, so the Phillies are in there, too. But for the time I’m going to be playing, I think Boston is more suitable so that I can retire with the Boston Red Sox and go to the Hall of Fame with the same hat."
Pedro attempted his first comeback with the Phillies back in 2009 when he went 5-1 with a 3.86 ERA in the second half of the season. Martinez served as the Phillies' fifth starter and pitched in the World Series, losing at the hands of the New York Yankees.
If Daisuke continues to stuggle, the Red Sox might look at Martinez as a potential replacement for this season. This certainly makes sense to me if he is able to get himself back in his 2009 form and can assume the role as the number five starter in the Red Sox rotation.
Not only would his presence on the field make a difference, but his personality in the dugout could certainly lift the spirits of this team.
While every Red Sox fan knows Pedro's best years are behind him, they still were there to witness them and they know that Pedro has one more year left in him. I believe it would be a great story for Martinez to return and help the Red Sox win a World Series, where he can offcially walk into the Hall of Fame, with two World Series rings to his name, and a big "B" on his cap.
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I find your poll options
far too harsh in their opposition. There is far too much in between “hero” and “washed up” for me to feel comfortable choosing one or the other.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
but he is a hero here!
doesn’t mean he’d necessarily pitch like one still, but he is forever a hero in Boston.
Exactly why I don't like the options.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
I'm going to put you down for "washed up"
And then harass you for it for the next two years.
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USG
by Ben Buchanan on Apr 14, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNooooooooooooOOOOoooooooooooo!!!!!!
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Great idea!
I doubt he’d have implosions like Daisuke. Instead I think he’d be consistently mediocre/average, even good. But what to DO with Daisuke, I still don’t know. No one will take him, and the bullpen matters too, we can’t just toss all our washed up pitchers in there and pretend they don’t exist.
I find it hard to believe Pedro wouldn't be better than Dice-K
Pedro wasn’t just a thrower. He was a pitcher. His velocity might not be there, and his stuff might not be quite as sharp, but he still knows how to get guys out.
Unless he’s completely out of shape, I would say it’s not unreasonable to think he could pitch to around a 4.00 ERA.
I think it’s a no-brainer if Pedro looks anything close to decent and will accept a reasonable salary. Pedro will more than likely pitch better than Dice-K. At any rate, he could hardly pitch worse….and his press conferences are bound to be much more entertaining.
I loved Pedro, but he's done
He hasn’t pitched in over a year—and when he did (in 2009), he was only able to make 9 starts. Also, he averaged less than 5 innings a start! Petey’s FIP with the Phillies was 4.28, the same as Dice-K’s career FIP. Last year, Matsuzaka averaged over 6 innings per start and was a 4.05 FIP pitcher. You don’t even have to do an NL/AL conversion to see that Dice-K is the better option.
If Dice-K continues to struggle ….
So far this year, Matsuzaka has made two starts. One was a so-so start, where he kept the team in the game, and the other was a disaster. I don’t call that struggling. You need a stretch of bad starts to call a pitcher “struggling”. The Sox are going to give Dice-K more than two starts this year. They don’t really have a good in-house replacement, nor will he be easy to move (due to a no-trade clause and his contract). Matsuzaka may be hard to watch at times. But he’s not as bad as his detractors make him out to be.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
To be fair to Pedro...
In 2009, I know at least one of those games(if not two) was a rain shortened start where he went out to pitch for an inning or so but there was a delay in excess of an hour and he had to be pulled.
So I don’t think you can say he averaged less than 5 IP over 9 starts as a true measure of what he was capable of since those numbers are skewed by the rain shortened starts.
Also...
I understand what you’re saying about 2 games not being a large enough sample size to judge Dice-K.
But I don’t think people are judging him exclusively on those 2 starts. They’re judging him on those 2 starts + 2009 + 2010.
Point taken about the rain-shortened games
However, in Petey’s last year with the Mets, he avareged just over 5.1 innings per start. He hasn’t averaged 6 innings or more a start since 2005.
As for Dice-K, he wasn’t bad last year and he was hurt in 2009. When healthy, Matsuzaka has been a fairly consistent pitcher:
2007 – 4.40 ERA/4.23 FIP/4.17 xFIP
2008 – 2.90 ERA/4.03 FIP/4.64 xFIP
2010 – 4.69 ERA/4.05 FIP/4.54 xFIP
I have my doubts about whether or not Pedro can still pitch in the AL. What’s clear, though, is that Petey can no longer average 6 innings a start. I’d hate to see him come to Boston and get his brains beat in. I just don’t see Pedro as a better option than Dice-K.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Apr 14, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Pedro for Closer!
I’m telling you… no need to put him in the 5th spot, just let him close the game.
We could easily trade Papelbon, especially with how he’s started the season. I know, I know… Bobby Jenks was told he’d be the first option to close if Papelbon, for some reason, was no longer our closer.
But, c’mon… I continue to maintain this would be the best way for Pedro to get back in the game, and that he could be as dominant a closer as Dennis Eckersley was.
First of all, let's keep the topic on Pedro, as there are already two threads of Dice-K bashing/arguing
I should start by saying that Pedro is and always will be my favorite Red Sox player ever, that I truly pity anyone who wasn’t alive to watch the 1999 ASG, and I will gladly debate anyone who disagrees that he was easily one of the 5 most dominant pitchers in MLB history.
That is why the last thing I want is for my last memory of him as a player to consist of getting demolished by the AL East, because that is exactly what is going to happen. In recent years he’s become a heavily flyball pitcher, averages 88-89 with the fastball, has to nibble the corners and rely on deception/command to get hitters out. While the 44 innings with Philly are a small sample, it’s the most recent work we have to go on, and a 0.67 ground/fly and 26.6% line-drive rate (!) are not encouraging. And that’s NL lineups doing that to him.
I’d love for Pedro to jog in from the bullpen and strike out Jeter to clinch the division but it isn’t happening.
First things first
1. I think Pedro can EASILY strikeout Jeter or induce a lazy groundball. Who can’t, these days? Now if you’re talking about striking out Cano….yeah, maybe not so much.
2. I understand what you’re saying about Pedro now not being Pedro how he was, but I still don’t think that he’s crap. Since you are referencing his 2009 stats, Pedro also induced a BB rate of 1.6/9 and a SO rate of 7.5/9. Flyball pitcher now or not, those are still viable stats.
Pedro is not the panacea to the problems..
He is more in the Paul Byrd category, that he can’t overpower hitters, but get them out with his intelligence and hiding his delivery. Pedro is a first ballot hall of famer, but yearning for him is not the answer. It is better to put the resources in developing talent in the farm system or for scouting.
Pedro was a great pitcher, in some ways he was better than Koufax during 1999-2001, but he is not a great pitcher right now. He also had some serious surgery after a year with the Mets. (not signing him was one of the smart moves that Theo did after the 04 season)
"so that I can retire with the Boston Red Sox and go to the Hall of Fame with the same hat."
Check your numbers, Pedro. You’re heading to the Hall with a Red Sox hat no matter where your next comeback takes place.
Pedro walked off the mound
in a Red Sox uniform in front of 60,000 Cardinals fans, about to win Game 3 of the World Series. That’s how he should be remembered.
For an even better contrast
Watch the video of Curt Schilling pitching for the NL in that same inning, coming off two consecutive 300-K seasons, in his prime, throwing 95-96. His fastball looks straight as a monorail.
Pedro comes up and is throwing 96-98 with explosive movement, his fastball looks like it has rocket boosters attached.
Those were the days.
And the best part
Pedro was not even trying.
He simply threw everything down the middle, right up the chute, pitch after pitch, mostly not even bothering to bust someone inside or be nasty on the corners as he would in a real game. This against six men who would hit over 2400 career HR between them, at the height of the steroid era, who practically knew what was coming and where he would throw it and were still helpless to do anything about it.
Yes, what Pedro did in his era...
… may very well make him the absolute greatest pitcher of all time.
Not to say Koufax and Gibson and others don’t have legitimate arguments, but when you compare Pedro to his peers and consider what the hitters (and other pitchers) were doing at the same time, and realize that his skinny little frame just went out and hurled the ball…
Maybe I’m a Red Sox fan, and totally biased, but I think you can make an argument that he really is #1.
When talking performance during his peak,
Nobody is close to Pedro. Others have dominated hitters like he has, but none in such a hitter-friendly era.
True
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Apr 14, 2011 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Apr 14, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe.
But not as a fifth starter. I voted option 1 cause he’s a “hero” in my head and he’s worth a shot, but NOT as a fifth starter. I’d love to see him as 6th-7th-8th inning guy (any combo of 2 innings).
However, honestly, it depends on if he really wants to come back, what capacity he’s willing to pitch in, and most importantly, how he looks in workouts/minor league assignment(s).
Those are all key to a possible Pedro return to Boston. Though honestly, he’s pretty happy under his mango tree right now. I know I would be.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
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Dice K
I would love to see Pedro back but his best days are behind him, I say send Dice K to Pawtuckett and split the #5 starter spot between Felix Dubront and Scott Atchenson, He was a reliable long reliever and spot starter last year and Felix showed a lot of potential. They both have better stuff than Dice K.
Scott needs to be back and soon, he was the heart and soul of the pitching staff last year, a workhorse
first, Dice-K can't be sent to Pawtucket
second, neither Atchison nor Doubront has stuff anything remotely close to the level of Dice-K.
Atchison was a moderate middle reliever last year who performed better than expected (his expected level of performance was in Pawtucket most of the year with maybe a short stint in the majors). Also, he is not a starter. He’s started exactly one game in the majors, which was only because of an injury that appeared 15 minutes before the game, and he only went three innings. That does not make him a starter.
One inning more than Dice K. ;)
I remember that game he started…that was a good game.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
heh yeah I was at that game
I remember I was all braced for a Dice-K start, and then when I got to the field realized it wasn’t him warming up and got very confused.
7 innings
This seems to be a bit premature.
Can I wait until Dice-K’s inning count is at least up in the 20s before I stick a fork in him?
"We will take it easy, and walk on down our road at our pace with our focus ahead, and your focus on us." - Warrior Spirit, on what Celtics' Ubuntu is.
by mmmmm on Apr 14, 2011 1:27 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Yep
That’s sort of the same as saying Alferdo Aceves, a pitcher with 131.2 career major league IP, “has a great track record as a pitcher.”
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Apr 14, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
He has a successful track record thus far...
Contributor To Over The Monster, SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site.
by Jared Stegall on Apr 14, 2011 4:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Big deal
It’s a very small sample. He hasn’t pitched much.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Apr 14, 2011 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Would rather honestly have Wake?
Doubront isn’t the guy, and Miller isn’t ready.
I’d give Aceves the nod over Wake if it came to that, but knowing Tito it would be wake…
Contributor To Over The Monster, SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site.
by Jared Stegall on Apr 14, 2011 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions
No
Right now, I don’t see a viable option. Aceves is injury-prone and has never thrown more than 80 innings. A #5 starter would be expected to throw at least 150 innings. Wake is worse than Dice-K. I’m not sure Doubront is ready. I think the Sox will give Dice-K time because, right now, he’s the best option.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Apr 14, 2011 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
That may take awhile
at least at the current rate. 2-3 more starts will be like putting a fork in our eyes.
simul justus et peccator
Pedro Gets It
Both men are prideful, make no mistake about that. But Pedro was more realistic. He was able to adapt to the change circumstances of his body. Dice-K shows no ability or willingness to adapt. Choosing between the Divas, I’ll take Pedro. And, yes, his ability to get along with teammates is huge too! Does Dice-K know anyone’s name beside Tek and Okajima?
simul justus et peccator
I know Papelbon has looked good in the two games he's taken part in
but I really think Pedro would be better in a closing role than as a starter.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Official Baker of Red Sox Nation
Thank you!!
Seriously, with Papelbon’s start to the season (and the likely motivation he’d take with him if we traded him away), I’m sure we’d get some value back.
Trade Papelbon away, install Pedro as the closer. If he cannot hack it, we go to Jenks/Bard and let Pedro retire.
I swear I truly believe he’d be lights out for one inning, and the occasional two inning save.
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