Are the Red Sox Really too Lefthanded?
MLB Hall of Famer Peter Gammons appeared on NESN today speculating about the Red Sox batting order in 2011. The additions of left handed hitters Adrian Gonzalez and Carl Crawford have fans wondering if a lineup that already features David Ortiz, Jacoby Ellsbury and J.D. Drew leans further to the left than Keith Olbermann. How will manager Terry Francona balance his lineup with so many lefties?
"[Francona] is not sure," Gammons said. "It depends on whether Jacoby Ellsbury is completely healthy.
"It's very clear Terry would like to go: Ellsbury, [Dustin] Pedroia -- who really doesn't like to lead-off, Crawford -- who really doesn't like to lead-off, Gonzalez, [Kevin] Youkilis, Ortiz."
If Francona uses the lineup that Gammons suggests, four out of the Sox first six hitters will swing from the left side. Can that lineup run the gauntlet of left-handed studs in the American League East, namely, C.C. Sabathia, David Price and Brian Matusz?
Research shows it can.
Assuming health, lead-off man Ellsbury is a career .307 hitter against southpaws. He only had 17 at-bats against them last season, due to injury, but batted .318 against them in 192 ABs in 2009.
Crawford only hit .254 against them last season (compared to .329 against righties), but has a career line of .270/.315/.382 versus left-handers.
Gonzalez, meanwhile, raked left-handed pitching last year to the tune of .335/.338/.444. He did, however, display less power against lefties (.510 slugging vs. righties).
As for Ortiz, the DH had a .222/.275/.324 mark last year, but hit .308/.390/.462 against them as recently as 2007. Also, Francona could spell Ortiz against elite lefties by replacing him with Mike Cameron (career .272 AVG) or Darnell McDonald (career .296 AVG).
Gammons also said Boston might use Drew as the lead-off hitter if Ellsbury hasn't recovered completely from his rib injury. He struggled mightily against them last year (.208 AVG), but is a career .250/.357/.411 hitter against the left side.
Whatever the lineup, the Red Sox should have no problem matching the 818 runs they scored in 2010 that ranked them behind only the Yankees in the AL.
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That is crazy...
Pedroia is too small and lacks the mental toughness to bat lead off.
Is this post a joke?
It sounds like every member of the Boston media circa May 2007. I don’t need to tell you what happened after that…
He does think he has a problem with it, though.
Even if it’s just him forcing himself to bat differently when he shouldn’t, well, he’s still batting differently.
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by Ben Buchanan on Feb 10, 2011 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
He just needs to be convinced that no one else thinks he can do it.
He will post a huge OBP and see 10-12 pitches per PA just to spite the nay sayers.
Hey... shush!!
We cannot have him read the thread and know our taunts are really designed just to get him to take the lead off roll in 2011.
I seriously am falling more and more in love with the idea of Pedroia leading off in this line up… R – L – R – L puts Gonzalez where he wants at clean up, and gives Youkilis the spot ahead of him, where he’ll get a steady diet of fastballs to destroy.
Pedroia 2B
Crawford LF
Youkilis 3B
Gonzalez 1B
Ortiz DH
Lowrie SS
Drew RF
Saltalamacchia C
Ellsbury CF
C’mon, Tito… throw this out there a couple times in Spring Training and see what happens!!
I love the campaign taking hold...
Pedey just cannot hack it as a lead off hitter. Even Gammons says so!
Papi and Crawford can't hit lefties at all
Who cares about AVG. It doesn’t measure anything important offensively.
Crawford’s .315 career OBP v. lefties stinks. Basically, when lefties are on the mound, CC is about as good a hitter as Bill Hall last year (.316 OBP) without the power.
As for Papi, 2007 was his best season. He hasn’t been the same since. Saying Papi could hit lefties as “recently as 2007” is a meaningless statement. For one thing, that’s four years ago; and another, he isn’t the same hitter anymore.
As for Gonzalez, last year was the only year he hit lefties well. Time will tell if that’s a fluke or not.
Any line-up that has Crawford hitting third and Youk hitting fifth is a bad line-up. Youk may be the best hitter on the Sox. You want to get him as many AB as possible. Also, any line-up with CC and Gonzalez hitting back-to-back is just begging for a match-up lefty in the late innings.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
3rd and 5th spots should be about the same hitter.
It goes 1 2 4, then 3 5, then 6, then 7, then 8, then 9. 3 is less important because the 3-hitter comes up to bat with 2 out none on the most, the least important situation. If you have a guy who depends a lot on home runes, he should go in 3 though. Best hitters in 1, 2, 4, high OBP at 1, more power at 4.
Youk and Crawford aren't the same hitter
Youk is a much better offensive player. Also, your #3 hitter will get more PA over the course of the season. The Sox should be trying to maximize the number of PA Youk gets.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 8, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
I know they arent,
but what I was trying say is that the benefit of more plate appearances is countered almost exactly by the detriment of hitting in low-leverage situations more often. That’s why 3 and 5 are about of equal importance, and why disproportionately home-run hitters should bat 3rd. With 2 outs, home runs are still just as valuable, but more outs make any other type of hit less valuable.
Drugs, you were hilarious in Outside Providence, but I’m against you here.
I brought up Ortiz’s 2007 numbers because it shows he has had some significant success against lefties in the not-so-distant past.
I concede Crawford isn’t great against lefties, but he’s not a great OBP guy overall, so I don’t think that’s a fair barometer.
by Dan Ventresca on Feb 8, 2011 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
For Ortiz, 2007 is the distant past. Over the past three years, he is a .257 AVG/.356 OBP/.498 SLG (.854 OPS) hitter (compared to the .306 AVG/.418 OBP/.620 SLG slash line he put up the three years prior: from 2005 to 2007). From 2008 to 2010, Ortiz has hit .218 AVG/.291 OBP/.383 SLG (.674 OPS) against lefties. He’ll never hit like he did in 2007.
Crawford has had an OBP of .350 or better in three of the past four seasons. The fact that he can’t hit lefties is what hurts his overall on-base numbers. Crawford posted OBPs of .375 and .382 against right-handed pitching the past two years. And, OBP—the ability not to make outs—is the most important stat when assessing hitters.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 8, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Interestingly enough, platoon splits are something Sabermetrics "took out," oh, 20-odd years ago?
Which is not to say they don’t exist, just that they are barely accurate until they reach a certain level—about 1,000 PA for same-handed hitting. And even then it’s only that we would say the true level is now likely closer to the actual observed level than league average.
Now, Gonzalez just passed that point last year, and, by god, he sure did regress towards that average difference between same and different handed pitching. Crawford, is well past that point, but I expect even he shows some upward trend in his best fit line.
This is not to say Gonzo rakes lefties or that Crawford can hit them reasonably well. There’s also probably something to be said about David Ortiz’ wrist. Just that, when we look at Gonzalez, we should look at his .339 career wOBA against lefties, factor in Petco park and age, and come out thinking “He can probably hit them pretty decently.” And with Crawford, though it looks like a big split against lefties, you also have to consider he wasn’t a very good offensive player. That .315 OBP is compared to a career .337, and if we look only at the last five-or-so years when his OBP was any good (his wOBA being influenced as it is by steals), we don’t even have enough to make the comparison.
Basically, they’re both guys with bigger-than-usual platoon splits, but let’s not change the channel when they face southpaws.
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by Ben Buchanan on Feb 9, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
Interesting
Platoon splits only matter when they reach 1,000 PA. OK, I can buy that. What I don’t get is why you assume an upward trend for Crawford? He is closing in on 2,000 PA against lefties (1593 PA).
While his overall offense has improved over the past few seasons, that’s because he has hit righties better. Here are his last three years against lefties:
2008 – (150 PA) .293 OBP/.641 OPS
2009 – (210 PA) .325 OBP/.704 OPS
2010 – (223 PA) .312 OBP/.696 OPS
Those numbers suggest that his career .315 OBP/.697 OPS is not the result of his early career.
Look, it’s more important to hit well against righties because there are more right-handed pitchers. But let’s not be blind to Crawford’s vulnerability. He doesn’t hit lefties. It’s been proven over a large enough sample size.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 9, 2011 7:29 AM EST up reply actions
My point is that, in the last two years (remember, Crawford had a horrible 2008), the size of the split is a statistical blip.
Over the course of his career, Crawford’s overall numbers against lefties aren’t important. What is important is that, over the course of a significant statistical sample size, Crawford’s split against lefties is about 30 OBP and 90 SLG points below that against righties.
So if we expect Carl Crawford to put up a .840 OPS next year on a line of .320/.350/.490 (chosen at random), we should expect it to come with splits like .330/.420 against lefties and .360/.510 against righties. The unusually large splits of the last three years are nasty blips in a picture that’s only ugly, not catastrophic.
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by Ben Buchanan on Feb 9, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
Not really a blip
Here are Crawford’s splits since 2005 (skipping 2008):
2005 – [v. LHP] .293 OBP/.326 SLG/.276 wOBA [v. RHP] .348 OBP/.530 SLG/.372 wOBA
2006 – [v. LHP] .341 OBP/.436 SLG/.338 wOBA [v. RHP] .352 OBP/.500 SLG/.361 wOBA
2007 – [v. LHP] .350 OBP/.487 SLG/.360 wOBA [v. RHP] .355 OBP/.452 SLG/.348 wOBA
2009 – [v. LHP] .325 OBP/.378 SLG/.313 wOBA [v. RHP] .382OBP/.487 SLG/.377 wOBA
2010 – [v. LHP] .309 OBP/.380 SLG/.306 wOBA [v. RHP] .375 OBP/.546 SLG/.394 wOBA
First off, Ben, your methodology is flawed. You don’t compare a player’s stats against all pitchers against what he does v. left or right-handed pitching. In doing so, you count one split twice.
Last year, Crawford was 0.66 OBP lower against lefties and .166 SLG lower. The year before, he was 0.57 OBP lower and .109 SLG lower. 2007 was a lucky year against lefties for Crawford. His BB-rate was a putrid 3.9% against lefties, yet his OBP was .350. That’s because his BABIP was .381! Also, his ISO was abnormally high. The year before his BABIP was somewhat inflated, as was his ISO. Over the bulk of his career—with the exception of two years (and not the two most recent years!)—Crawford has been a .290-.310 wOBA hitter against lefties and a .350-.380 wOBA hitter against righties. That’s a huge difference.
As I said before, it’s more important to hit well against righties because there are more right-handed pitchers. However, Crawford’s problem with left-handed pitching is not a “blip.” It’s a fact, shown over 1600 or so PA.
It’s not surprising that in his best years against lefties Crawford had high BABIPs. Crawford relies on speed. It’s his best asset. Thus, Crawford’s overall numbers are BABIP-dependant. Crawford is what he is: a very good player with bad platoon splits.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 9, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
The point was he's changed as a hitter
and that he very well could have changed as a hitter vs LHP, too, but we may have not been able to see that change show up against LHPs b/c the samples are too small to be significant.
There is a decent case to be made that he’s not terrible against LHPs anymore.
If he has changed
The change hasn’t shown. His numbers against lefties the past two seasons (430 or so PA) are right in line with his overall numbers.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 9, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Carl Crawford's career BABIP vs. LHP: .320
Carl Crawford’s career BABIP vs. RHP: .335
Carl Crawford’s career line vs. LHP: .270/.315/.382
Carl Crawford’s career line vs. RHP: .308/.346/.470
First off, Ben, your methodology is flawed. You don’t compare a player’s stats against all pitchers against what he does v. left or right-handed pitching. In doing so, you count one split twice.
I don’t see where I did that, unless you’re talking about the end there, in which case that was just me establishing a standard slash line I could then figure out his splits from based on his career numbers. You’ll notice the OBP and SLG differences are equal to 30 and 90 between the lefty and righty splits, not the lefty splits and his season line.
Moving on…
Again, you’re reading way too much into tiny samples. You look at his last couple years and say “Well, they’re in line with his career numbers.” Except they’re not. They’re in line with his career production against lefties, but tell a completely different story from that his career splits tell. His splits say he hits .038/.031/.088 better against righties than he does lefties. Since this is over 1,500 plate appearances, this is a statistically significant figure.
Over the last 9 years, Carl Crawford has improved, as alskor says, as a hitter. Not as a hitter against right-handed pitching, but just plain as a hitter. If it didn’t show in the last two years, that’s because his last two years aren’t a significant sample size from which to determine splits. We can’t just say “Well he’s this bad against lefties because of his last two years” without than saying “Except he’s not because of ’04, ’06, and ’07.” Just as we can’t discount those years due to BABIP since over the whole sample we have very even figures.
Projection systems use the last three years to determine, generally, what they expect the player to hit. That’s because recent history generally is the best predictor of production. If I’m reading it right, you seem to be trying to apply that thinking to his splits, where that just doesn’t work on that scale. Two years on their own are just completely insignificant when determining the splits we’d expect to form that overall number.
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The .330/.420 and .360/.510 numbers, by the way, are based off 25% PA's against lefties, 75% against righties.
Given the figures BZ provided, that’s not far off.
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Over the last 9 years, Carl Crawford has improved, as alskor says, as a hitter. Not as a hitter against right-handed pitching, but just plain as a hitter. If it didn’t show in the last two years, that’s because his last two years aren’t a significant sample size from which to determine splits.
Let’s see. Over his first nine seasons, Crawford is a .296 AVG/.337 OBP/.444 SLG (.803 OPS) hitter. His first two seasons weren’t great. If you eliminate them, Crawford has been a .302 AVG/.345 OBP/.462 SLG (.807 OPS) hitter from 2004 to 2010. So he has improved. Let’s look as his splits the past seven seasons:
v. RHP – .313 AVG/.353 OBP/.489 SLG (.842 OPS)
v. LHP – .274 AVG/.323 OBP/.398 SLG (.721 OPS)
Crawford has been a .121 better OPS hitter against righties. Let’s break down his numbers further. There are only three years where OPS’d .764 or better against lefties. Not surprisingly, those are his three best BABIP seasons (.336 BABIP, .344 BABIP, and .381 BABIP).
If a player’s success is tied to BABIP, it’s very hard to see where he has improved his approach. Let’s look at his last three seasons because many projections use three-year blocks. (Yes, I know 2008 was a bad year. But since he only played 109 games that year and played 154+ in each of the last two—two of his best—the numbers shouldn’t be skewed too much). CC’s overall numbers from 2008-2010 are very similar to what he has put up since 2004:
2008-2010 – .297 AVG/.349 OBP/.454 SLG (.803 OPS)
2004-2010 – .302 AVG/.345 OBP/.462 SLG (.807 OPS)
Based on the above, CC is pretty much the same overall hitter since 2004. However, over the past three years, he has improved against righties: .316 AVG/.367 OBP/.493 SLG (.860 OPS). Those numbers are based on 1,112 AB.
Finally, it’s interesting to note that many people believe JD Drew should sit in favor of Mike Cameron when there’s a lefty on the mound. I’ve never been against platooning players. But, since 2004, Drew has been a better hitter against left-handed pitching than Crawford:
Drew – .250 AVG/.361 OBP/.409 SLG (.770 OPS)
Crawford – .274 AVG/.323 OBP/.398 SLG (.721 OPS)
Nothing in Crawford’s 1600 PA against lefties suggests that he has improved against them. Crawford’s recent numbers suggest that he has hit righties better of late. If we are talking about improvement, this is the only area where his numbers have been noticeable better.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 9, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
I’d say we find a much better cutoff point for CC improving at 2006. The 2008-2010 figure cuts off two >800 OPS years while including an injured 2008 which does, for the record, bring down the average OPS of the period by 30 points.
Over this period, he has 972 plate appearances vs lefties. Very nearly at the 1,000 mark.
2006-2010: .277/.325/.409, .325 BABIP vs. Lefties
2006-2010: .313/.360/.485, .342 BABIP vs. Righties
2002-2005: .258/.299/.339, .309 BABIP vs. Lefties
2002-2005: .301/.329/.451, .327 BABIP vs. Righties
If you want to eliminate those first two seasons, though we’re now getting into dangerous sample size territory (already there’s too few plate appearances to rely on that last period’s splits as predictive):
2004-2005: .265/.315/.366, .319 BABIP vs. Lefties
2004-2005: .310/.337/.494, .325 BABIP vs. Righties
As he improves against righties, he improves against lefties.
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And just to cover this before it starts...
The BABIP differences come from Crawford’s increased GB%, which given his skill set, could very easily be interpreted as “getting better”.
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Really?
Crawford’s highest overall BABIP years were the last two and 2007. His four highest GB years were his first two, 2006 and 2009. Last year, was CC’s highest FB season.
Finally, what I find interesting is the way you cherry pick stats to show Crawford’s improvement. As I showed, Crawford has been pretty much the same hitter since 2004. Since we can’t use a three-year period because it’s too small, why cut the sample size under 1,000? In doing so, you give greater weight to CC’s one decent season against lefties: 2007. Under your grouping, over 20% of Crawford’s PA came during an anomalous year. If CC was truly improving, you’d expect to see better numbers; but we don’t. The past three seasons, Crawford has posted wOBAs of .289, .313, and .306 against lefties.
I also find it interesting that you cite sample size issues to counter criticism of Crawford, despite his fairly lengthy career. Yet, you also argue for Jed Lowrie based on under 200 PA last year. (BTW, I also like Lowrie). Basically, I think it’s very hard to argue that CC is anything other than poor against lefties. I’d love to be wrong about this. But the numbers back up my argument.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 9, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
I went with the biggest bump, when his OBP jumped from .330 to .350
Which, to me, at least, is proof that he’s not the same hitter. I set the cutoff there because I find far more similarities between years ‘06/’07 and ‘09/’10 than I do between ‘04/’05 and ‘06/’07. I may make 20% of my sample his good year against lefties, ‘07, but you made 27% of your sample his injury year in 2008 when saying "he’s the same hitter from ‘04 straight through to ’10," so I’m not sure I see your issue there…
If CC was truly improving, you’d expect to see better numbers; but we don’t. The past three seasons, Crawford has posted wOBAs of .289, .313, and .306 against lefties.
Again, here’s where we seem to reach a disconnect. To even get to the point where the splits would have any reliability, Carl Crawford would need around 200% more plate appearances! Conveniently, if we go back to add in those plate appearances, we find that the numbers do, in fact, get pulled back towards league average! Those blip years like 2007? That’s called regression to the mean. It happens in positive ways too. It does.
Stats aren’t magical. In every situation, they predict that the player will most likely be average in all the areas that they haven’t been proven to control. But since he can’t control it, those numbers only work out over time. In any one year, or in this case 500 PA’s, it’s completely up to chance. It’s only once we get to five or six years running with this stuff when it’s viable to pause and say “Well, hm, maybe he’s got a bigger split than we thought before.”
As for Lowrie, again, my problem with sample size comes with things like splits. Not for everything. Though I readily admit that Jed Lowrie’s 2010 numbers could be completely a matter of sample size, and always add that I don’t expect him to come within 50 OPS point of his 900-or-so from last year, it’s just a completely different thing.
It’s overall performance, and we don’t have the numbers we do on Crawford to develop the arguments. It’s basically just a matter of your guess is as good as mine to determine whether he’ll keep it up. I just think there’s more signs that he’s a reasonably better player than Scutaro than there are that he’s not, and that to pass up on the chance for that kind of player when his floor is probably around Scutaro is insane.
Anyways, I feel like the argument has gotten muddled at this point, so to clear up
I state the following:
1. A player does not develop the ability to hit left handed and right handed pitching independently. Actual production against either one is best predicted by applying that player’s splits to the hitter’s overall ability.
2. The difference between a player’s right-handed and left-handed splits cannot be determined by a sample size below 1,000 plate appearances against same-handed pitching.
3. Carl Crawford, over those 1,000 plate appearances, has shown lefty splits about 30 points of OBP and 90 points of SLG below his righty splits.
4. Therefore it is reasonable to expect, should he perform at the same overall level next year as he did in 2010, that Carl Crawford will hit about .330/.420 against lefties.
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Not to go into a long discussion
while some of this is rational, some of it is not logical, at least to me. First and foremost it makes no sense to call something like 200 PAs a worse sample for splits but “not everything.” Small samples are small samples-the reason you need 1000+ PAs to say something about the ability to hit, say, LHP is because you need 1000+ PAs to access hitting, period. Second-why should we expect Crawford to hit like in 2010 when the entire weight of his career says otherwise? That is like last year when you argued that Scutaro’s 2009 year was a result of a changed approach and I simply argued that one year is just one year. Every projections so far (ZIPS, James, Marcels…) has CC as a ~.355 wOBA hitter-more in line with his career than last year. And they do so with a methodology.
Different components & numbers stabilize into useful samples at different amounts.
That’s well established. Platoon splits don’t stabilize that quickly.
That's not my point-
my point is that it is bunk to call a 200 PA sample “large enough” overall. I am willing to concede that a LH hitter hitting LHP is a different skill than RHP and will regress, perhaps, differently, but small is small. The distinctions are details. The Book claims you need a factor of 2 difference to regress LH/RH in terms of LHP. A factor of 2 in this regard is basically the same for the purposes of my argument…
Minor correction
meant to say that LH/RH hitters stabalize against LHP/RHP differently.
Finally, what I find interesting is the way you cherry pick stats to show Crawford’s improvement.
?
We know platoon splits stabilize around 1000 PAs. Forgetting everything else, Ben looked at the last 1,000 PA’s more or less. This seems a much more logical approach than your year to year and 3 year splits. Choosing 3 years randomly seems much more akin to cherry picking.
If CC was truly improving, you’d expect to see better numbers; but we don’t.
No. You wouldn’t necessarily. That’s the point. There is simply too much noise and random variation in a single year or even 3 years of platoon split slash stats. Too many random groupings can occur that won’t give us a true reading on that player’s ability.
This isn’t to say Crawford definitely has improved – its to say we don’t know if he has, but given his improvement as a hitter overall (for which we have much more reliable numbers/sample sizes) there is a case to be made that he has.
We would not expect that improvement would show up in Crawford’s stats the way you are parsing them. Its possible it would, but also quite likely it wouldn’t. You simply can’t draw conclusions from ~150-200 PAs a year against LHPs. Its kind of like looking at 3 months of UZR and saying a fielding improvement would have shown up in that on a month to month basis.
We know platoon splits stabilize around 1000 PAs.
I never disputed this. I used two large samples, one was 1596 PA (CC’s career numbers); the other was 1345 PA (CC from 2004-2010).
Over 1345 PA, CC has been a .320 OBP/.395 SLG (.715 OPS)hitter against LHP. Using Ben’s 972-game sample, Crawford was slightly better: .325 OBP/.409 (.734 OPS).
I called this cherry picking because starting in 2006 is somewhat arbitrary. Crawford’s biggest improvement was from 2003 to 2004, a jump of .110 OPS. 2005 was the first season where he had an .800 OPS. Since then, Crawford has been an .800-.852 OPS hitter. However, 2005 was also one of CC’s worst years against lefties, while 2006 and 2007 were two of his best. This, seemingly, gives more weight to CC’s two best platoon split years. It also cuts the split under 1,000 PA, and makes it seem as if CC is better against lefties than a larger sample would indicate.
Also, as I have shown, Crawford’s overall numbers since 2004 are nearly identical to his overall numbers the past three years:
2008-2010 – .297 AVG/.349 OBP/.454 SLG (.803 OPS)
2004-2010 – .302 AVG/.345 OBP/.462 SLG (.807 OPS)
I’ve said CC is a BABIP hitter. I don’t think that’s in dispute. Some of this is due to CC’s speed. Some of it is luck. I’m not sure what the proportions are. However, one thing is certain. Crawford’s high BABIP is not the result of his GB%. There seems to be no evidence that when CC has a high GB% he also has a high BABIP. Also his GB% is higher against left-handed pitchers and he hits righties better.
Crawford is a free-swinging contact hitter. His BB-rates are low, and his K-rates are not high. His swing rates are slightly above average, as are his O-swings. In short, there is nothing that shows that CC has greatly altered his approach at the plate. As a contact hitter who doesn’t draw that many walks, a lot of his “improvement” is tied to BABIP.
I am not parsing his stats, not am I using small samples. Nothing I have seen suggest that Crawford hits lefties well. Unless, of course, you think a .730 OPS is good—and is a sign of “improvement.”
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 9, 2011 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
I called this cherry picking because starting in 2006 is somewhat arbitrary.
Again, going back from the present to as far as it takes for the skill to stabilize is not cherry picking. It makes far, far more sense than you splitting up stretches of years into random sample sizes to mitigate the effects of Crawford’s best season. THAT is the definition of cherry picking.
I don’t see how you can possibly be arguing for dividing it up the way you did – which you admittedly did to mitigate the effect of Crawford’s best year against LHPs in order to advance your point – and against Ben’s way of splitting it up.
Interesting
Again, going back from the present to as far as it takes for the skill to stabilize is not cherry picking.
That is what I did. CC has been roughly the same hitter since 2004, 2005 at the latest. If the stats are “stable” at 970 or so PA, why would using a 1300 PA or 1600 PA sample make them less so?
Actually, alskor, the definition of cherry picking is attempting to skew the data to confirm a particular position—in this case, trying to show that CC can hit lefties well. He can’t. Using 2006 as a starting point is entirely random.
And, more importantly, even with the most favorable data available, why is CC still bad against lefties? That was my initial point, which seems to be beyond argument now because even Ben’s numbers show that CC isn’t very good when facing left-handed pitching.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 10, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
"trying to show that CC can hit lefties well"
I don’t think that’s what Ben is doing at all.
He’s first looking at overall data that shows that Crawford has improved as an overall hitter since around 2006. Prior to that he was a sub .353 wOBA hitter and since then he has been an above .365 wOBA hitter (ignoring) the injury year of 2008) and those two numbers minimize the delta. Its really wider than that since the first number is the highest prior and the second is the lowest after. The 2006+ period is stable (always above that mark) and is supported by well over 2400 PAs.
Second, we know from looking at Crawford’s career overall that his vLHP splits normally trail his vRHP splits by about .30 OBP and .90 SLG and that this differential is supported by a large number of PAs because he is considering the whole career.
Now, over the last 3 years, his vLHP has NOT kept as close to his vRHP splits. But THAT is the piece that is based on TOO SMALL a sample size to be considered meaningful.
It is REASONABLE to expect that his vLHP will regress back towards trailing his vRHP numbers by .30/.90.
I hope this explains it clearly.
None of this is to say that CC hits LHP well. This is simply to suggest that the small sample of the last 3 years look like a simple (negative) deviation from the norm. I.E. he’s probably not AS bad as that SS suggests.
Fine
Even using 2006 as a starting point, CC is a .848 OPS hitter against righties. Taking 0.30 OBP and 0.90 SLG or .120 OPS away because his lefty splits “normally trail” his righty splits by that, CC is a .728 hitter against lefties. In other words, when lefties are on the mound, CC is the equivalent of Jason Varitek circa 2006. That’s not very good.
BTW, starting in 2004 like I did makes him a .721 OPS hitter against lefties—pretty much the same. So, all this juggling of sample size basically showed that CC’s overall numbers against lefties really haven’t improved significantly.
This has been a very tiresome exercise. A lot of words have been expended to show that my original statement—CC can’t hit lefties—is true.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 10, 2011 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
almost
You are still including Crawford’s injured 2008 in your ‘RH’ numbers. As Ben points out, that’s not a valid contributor to mean regression (unless you expect the player to play while injured in the future). Versus RHP:
year PA OBP/SLG/OPS
2006 472 .351/.499/.850
2007 418 .357/.455/812
2008 330 .330/.424/.754
2009 462 .382/.487/.868
2010 434 .379/.552/.930
-————————————————
total 1786 .367/.498/.865
So using the statistically significant 1786 PAs from his four non-injury years, we see Carl is probably a .367/.498/.865 hitter vRHP. That’s a bit north of your ‘.848’ number.
Using Ben’s expected differentials of -.030 & -.090 for vLHP that creates a reasonable expectation that CC is a .337/.408/.745 hitter vLHP.
Again, not great. But a little better than last year’s AL-average slash line of .327/.407/.734 (all batters v all pitchers). And noticeably better than your original assertions at the top.
Just FYI – the AL split vLHP last year was .325/.393/.719.
This is the last I'll say about this
You are still including Crawford’s injured 2008 in your ‘RH’ numbers.
As Buzzy pointed out, why are you willing to exclude 2008 as an outlier due to injury, yet you’re willing to use 2007 when his BABIP was higher than it has ever been? CC had nearly 500 PA in ‘08—and, if that’s less than his usual season, it gets less weight than other years.
What’s interesting about CC in 2008 is his BB-rate was good for him and he had one of his lowest K-rates. However, his BABIP was extremely low for him (.297). Not surprisingly, his overall numbers suffered.
As I’ve said before, CC is a BABIP hitter both 2007 and 2008 are exceptions rather than the rule in terms of BABIP. Even when using both, though, ’07 gets more weight because he had 627 PA that year, compared to 482 in ’08.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 11, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
I think...
… an argument could be made that the low BABIP in 2008 at .297 is directly related to the injuries to his knees/ankles/back or whatever was ailing him.
I have to admit, I wonder whether there is a way to break BABIP down further. It’s one of the reasons Ellsbury gets knocked around here is the high BABIP he had in his best year.
However, if speed guys generally have better BABIP (due to beating out more ground balls), shouldn’t that count as a skill for them? So, by that argument, Crawford’s 2007 might actually reflect a high BABIP as part of his skill set?
Hitter's BABIP is a skill, yes.
The question is, is 2008 BABIP regression, or injury?
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by Ben Buchanan on Feb 12, 2011 4:44 AM EST up reply actions
So just to get this straight
A player hitting for a better average than usual on balls in play is not something we should look at when trying to determine a player’s true talent level against LHPs… but if a player is hurt all year and the team and player both acknowledge it greatly harmed his performance we SHOULD include that in estimating what a player’s true talent level was?
I’m sorry, that just strikes me as a bizarre line of thinking.
Why would we knock out or mitigate his highest BABIP year? That’s a legitimate data point. Should we throw out his lowest BABIP year as well?
Meanwhile, we know for a fact an injury hindered his performance one year and so we’re probably not getting a true picture of what the player is capable of, but you would include that.
/shrugs
To put a point on this (since I kind of rambled)
Which is more demonstrative of a player’s true talent ability?
a) an injury filled year
OR
b) a year in which he hit for a higher than typical AVG on balls put in play?
The high BABIP might be luck – in terms of poor defense from opposing defenders, lucky hits falling in, etc… but it COULD also just be a good stretch from the player. Its not definitely good luck. It may just have been his best season/outlier.
A higher than typical BABIP is not always luck. Sometime a player is just hitting well.
It is definitely good luck
when after a reasonably long career to date you look at what the size of fluctuations off his babip around its mean. Note we are not talking about high babip with rference to leage average, only to reference to his average. In that regard you can regress 07 in a manner similar to the way xFIP regresses FIP (or mor accurately a regression to HIS mean not league mean). I agree-if I were to model a projection I would do the following things:
a)weight later years more (age progression).
b)Regress babip to his running mean (which thus includes his injury year as it is a low babip year for him).
Exactly
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 12, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
One last thing about Crawford's injuries in 2008
Crawford played in 107 of the Rays’ first 116 games. He missed time due to a suspension (the Coco Crisp incident). He had knee and hamstring soreness. He visited Dr. James Andrews, but an MRI showed no damage.
He had a hand injury in early August and was shut down for the season. CC has had groin issues and hamstring issues in the past. I’m not sure we should just equate his low BABIP in 2008 to injuries, especially since he had one of his best defensive years in ’08 by UZR.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 12, 2011 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
stop being logical
don’t you know that we should throw out 08 because he was bad and his babip was because he had injuries that an MRI cannot detect while on 07 his babip was like 380 because he was just so good?
here is a detailing
of Crawfords’ various injuries in 2007-2008, from the Rays Renegade blog:
http://raysrenegade.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/02/carl_crawfords_wrist_and_knees_1.html
Basically, through most of 2008, starting as early as March 15 in Spring Training, Crawford was complaining of pain in his hamstrings, sore knees, shoulder, wrist, etc.. He was sent to be examined by Dr. Andrews for knee and hamstring problems at the end of May / start of June (just prior to the Coco Crisp fight incident).
Anybody who followed the Rays even casually knew that Crawford was playing injured and banged up that year.
For a speed player I’m not sure why you wouldn’t ascribe a significant portion of his BAbip to skill. Ichiro Suzuki’s career BAbip is .357 and has been below .333 just once – has he just been ‘lucky’ his whole career?
?
I did not say he was not a high BABIP player (they DO exist). I said that in 07 his BABIP was much higher than HIS baseline.
Consider:
Crawford’s career BABIP=.331. Crawford in 07:0.374 (+43 over mean).
Crawford in 08:0.297(-34 under mean).
Given that fluctuations of BABIP are expected to be symmetric why oh why should we say 07=skill, 08=injury?
Also, as I have shown, Crawford’s overall numbers since 2004 are nearly identical to his overall numbers the past three years:
2008-2010 – .297 AVG/.349 OBP/.454 SLG (.803 OPS)
2004-2010 – .302 AVG/.345 OBP/.462 SLG (.807 OPS)
27% of the first figure comes from a year where he battled injury as compared to 14% of the second one. Injury is not a part of regression to the mean. It’s an outlier that derails this comparison.
If we look at 2006-2010, and 2004-2010, we see noticeably different numbers. Even just looking year-to-year, there’s a clear difference in the Carl Crawford of 2004-2005 and the Carl Crawford of 2006-2010.
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by Ben Buchanan on Feb 10, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
Actually I don't think there is a real argument here
I think the only point of contention is what is to be expected of CC overall this year. If you think he is going to hit a bit better than last year overall, then a 730 OPS is a good guess for his lefty split. If you think (like all projections that I have seen) that he will be an 800 OPS hitter overall, then a 670 OPS is a good guess. If you average the two (:0)) then we are looking at a 700 OPS hitter against lefties. I certainly will go walk the dog when my 700 OPS hitter is up (used to do that religously for Tek).
Exactly
No matter how you look at it, CC doesn’t hit lefties well.
One final point, it’s interesting that Ben is so scrupulous about sample size when it comes to CC’s splits. But he is less so when discussing Salty or a catching platoon.
I used 3-year and 7-year samples to show that CC was an .803-.807 OPS hitter. Ben thinks that’s invalid. Yet Bill James projects an .803 OPS for Crawford next year and Marcel has him at .792. I hope we’re all wrong and Ben is right because I’d much rather have CC as an .840 OPS hitter.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 10, 2011 7:27 AM EST up reply actions
The real problem here
is that we all think the Sox being weak against LHP is not a real problem because of guys like Cameron, Lowrie, etc. To a degree that is true, but no way CC, Agonz, etc are even going to allow themselves to be dropped in the order against LHP. That was the case with CC in Tampa-he refused to consider that he should take the day off or hit low in the order against LHP. To argue that the Sox will hit LHP close to as well as they hit RHP should not be the topic of a post, in my opinion. It is not arguable.
For instance
Last year’s Sox in their 162 games faced 52 Lefty starters to 105 righthanders. and subsequently managed to hit better against lefties 121 OPS+ vs. 114 OPS+
but the point is – 52/162 games = 32%. Lefty relievers are mitigated a bit by the ability to pinch-hit.
So do I mind having a weak hitter that runs 70% good hitting/30% average hitting that provides way above-average defense regardless of the pitcher
Nope
I totally
agree. It is a problem, not a huge one.
+1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 12, 2011 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
One final point, it’s interesting that Ben is so scrupulous about sample size when it comes to CC’s splits. But he is less so when discussing Salty or a catching platoon.
That’s an easy one to explain:
A) Switch hitters are a whole different story.
B) I hadn’t even come across the platoon research until recently.
As for the projections, many of them have issues taking into account anything more than the numbers. It’s harder to deal with something like a 2008 injury outlier. They also tend to be fairly conservative. That’s why both James and Marcel have Gonzo OPSing under .900. They barely even have Youk breaking that after three straight years in the stratosphere.
The only one that does—the fans’ projection—has him set to hit .835. Ironically, the team’s fans seem to expect closer to your level (I’m not sure, but I think that’s the first time I’ve ever seen team fans so far below other fans), but I wonder if that’s leftover from when we all expected him to go to the Yankees or Angels?
But I still just can’t understand why you think 2004 is the better cutoff. The 3-year sample? Again, that 2008 kills off 30 points of OPS. Let’s consider:
2004: .781 OPS
2005: .800 OPS
2006: .830 OPS
2007: .820 OPS
2008: .718 OPS
2009: .816 OPS
2010: .851 OPS
Aside from, as usual, the outlier, 2004 and 2005 are the two worst years on said list by a notable margin. He hasn’t OPSed below .816 in 4 valid season’s worth.
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by Ben Buchanan on Feb 10, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
Why is 08 not "valid"?
He was not so hurt as to not put up nearly 500 PAs. It is as valid as anything. Take these 5 years-and you get an 0.807 OPS. Throw it out and take the other 6 you get 0.813. Take 09 as a split difference between 10 (which is 20 points more than he ever put up) and his “injured” 08 and you get 0.816. Even if you take the fans 0.835 projection-by your offset he is a 700 OPS against LHP. Should I walk the dog when he is facing a lefty?
Or maybe we should throw out
08 because he was “injured” but not 07 when his BABIP was a massive 40 points higher than it ever has been since or before?
Indeed we should
Injury is not a method of regression to the mean. A high BABIP can be.
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by Ben Buchanan on Feb 10, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Of course, his 2008 BABIP being low as it is would make me wonder
But he did miss 50 games, and was battling unwell knees and legs most of the year. I choose to see that as a mitigating factor that unduly hampered him, but I suppose it’s valid to say otherwise.
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by Ben Buchanan on Feb 10, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
James' and Marcel both have predicted a HUGE drop in SLG
for Crawford.
From 2005-2010, Crawford posted SLG numbers:
.469
.482
.466
.400 (injury year)
.452
.495
Yet James and Marcel are predicting .453 and .446 for Crawford, respectively, for 2011.
That makes no sense. When you look at the spray chart overlay, its clear that while Fenway will not help Crawford’s HR numbers, it will almost certainly not hurt them either. And Fenway is a MUCH better doubles park than the Trop because of the deep, goofy CF and deep goofy RF corners – both of which should help Crawford.
The Fans prediction of .476 SLG seems much more reasonable.
sorry
How is 450 a “huge” drop from these numbers? Remember that the projections do not account for park and I agree that he could be aided by that. Further you cannot discount 08 as “injury” he played a lot. He played as much as VMart last year who put up numbers in line with expected despite an “injury.” You have no idea if his bad results were or were not changed by injury and if they were, by how much.
All of this still misses the point. We all agree that he is a 700-730 OPS hitter against LHP which is poorish and that was the original point of the fanpost.
well
saying that the projections do not account for park factors (and that they include injury year numbers) explains why they come in at the numbers they come in at. That doesn’t mean that they make sense as projections.
The formula are fine for running across zillions of players. But for any given player, you have to look more specifically to see if the inputs and considerations of the projection make sense. I submit that in Crawford’s case, they need to be amended to account for the knee, hamstring and finger tendon injuries that severely impacted his 2008 season.
V-Mart did not ‘play’ with his injury. His injury removed him from the field.
Including Crawford’s injury year numbers makes sense if you expect him to play with a similar injury during the projected interval. Not a totally unreasonable thing to do, given that he has a history of being ‘banged up’. But it is also true that almost all of his early career injuries (knee / hamstrings / wrist / etc) occured while on the rock-hard turf at the Trop. One can reasonably hope that will not be as big a problem on Fenway’s grass.
The agreement is close but not quite as you paint it. Ben’s methodology leads to more of a ~.745 OPS expectation of Crawford vLHP which while not great, is noticeably above the ‘700-730’ range.
Actually, VMart played with his injury
He had toe and thumb problems throughout the year. He only missed a month or so. But he was pretty banged up afterwards.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 11, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
And so
after all this, the bottom line is, Crawford basically does suck against LHP. At least with respect to a 730ish OPS sucking. Having a more than 100 point difference in his “improved” section of years in OPS splits with respect to an already not great RHP reference, is not a good thing. A great hitter, like Youk, has consistent splits that are much closer over even long data sets. If one is arguing that Crawford hit lefties well-the answer is a clear “no.”
Yeah, that was established pretty early on.
So if we expect Carl Crawford to put up a .840 OPS next year on a line of .320/.350/.490 (chosen at random), we should expect it to come with splits like .330/.420 against lefties and .360/.510 against righties.
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Why would you expect an .840 OPS?
Crawford has only had two seasons with an OPS of .830 or better: 2006 (.830) and 2010 (.851). In ’06, his OPS against lefties was .776. Last year it was .690.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Feb 9, 2011 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
Fenway could improve
his overall OPS. But-I agree that 840 is pretty optimistic-Early projections (that as far as I know do not take into account home park) put him in the 800 range.
Kind of a Strawman there.
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by Ben Buchanan on Feb 8, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
Ben, I really like the points you bring up. All I’m trying to do here is say the concern over the Red Sox relying too heavily on lefties is overblown and this lineup will score more than 818 runs they produced in 2010.
Does everyone agree the 2011 Red Sox will score more runs than the 2010 Red Sox?
Pretty sure most people are in agreement there.
But the idea that they might want to take precautions against tough lefties like making sure Mike Cameron* and Jed Lowrie** are in the lineup instead of any of the three guys with questionable numbers against lefties wouldn’t be a bad idea.
*Cameron is actually well short of the 2200 PA needed to be more sure of the split for opposite-handed stuff, but since he IS opposite-handed, we’re working off the higher side of the split to start, so yeah.
**Not exactly sure how switch hitters work, but of course, it is different
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It's about maximizing production
We have two excellent hitters against left-handed pitchers on the bench in Cameron and Lowrie. Putting them in the lineup against the C.J. Wilsons of the world will only help increase our offensive output further.
IOW, if our best-case scenario given good lineup management is 860 runs (made-up number alert), and we end up scoring 818, then we would have come out well above average by league standards, but well BELOW what could have been. In this hypothetical, those 42 lost runs would cost us somewhere around four wins – wins that we could have had without spending a single extra dollar on payroll.
I had done a piece on this after we signed Crawford.
http://www.overthemonster.com/2010/12/9/1865784/are-we-screwed-against-lefties
Essentially, no, with projection, we’re going to do about exactly the same as we did last year against them.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Sure hitting lefties is a skill
but until they start making up an equal proportion of pitching rotations, its less valued that hitting righthanders
I just feel that sometimes its looked at as a 50/50 proposition – when it clearly is not
Looking at Crawford’s liftime PAs – 70% of them came against righties while only 30% came against lefties – obviously he could have been out of many games against lefties, but from his game totals it doesn’t seem like that is the case.
So if you look at a 70/30 split, its clearly not as important to be able to hit lefties – looking at the big picture
Not as important
but important.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Its definitely a lot of lefties
but the Sox have a deep bench and have players that can hit lefties pretty good. They are decent defensive players too, which makes me feel like facing a LOOGY later in games wont be too much of an issue. The Sox can also use starts against lefties as a reason to get some of our players some rest (Ortiz, Drew, Crawford mainly) and get the players on the bench some AB’s (Lowrie, Scoot, Macdonald, Cameron).
My concern will be facing a CC type of lefty later in the season when every game counts. Do you sit a Crawford for a Cameron? Same with Drew and Ortiz?
perfect split of lefties and righties
balanced lineup at most parks and lefty heavy at mfy stadium.
most of the all time best hitters, in either league, have been lefties. considering, roughly 75% of the general public are righties, MLB seems to have an advantage with left handed batters (maybe because of so many righties pitching).
most of the best red sox hitters have batted from the wrong side of the plate – ruth, williams, lynn, yaz, drew, papi, bellhorn, ………….
did you just put Bellhorn in a list of "best red sox hitters"
and manage to leave off Wade Boggs??!!
bellhorn was a joke - everyone knows julio is right handed, thus bellhorn
boggs was a mistake. i thought of him and forgot to put it on.
did you know that wade boggs was the last major leaguer to hit .400 in a year?
it was something like may 1st 86 to april 30th 87. one of those things agents dig up for you.

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