Red Sox Need Inexpensive Starting Depth; Ross Ohlendorf, Perhaps?
by Marc Normandin on Dec 9, 2011 2:48 PM EST
in Analysis
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PrintThe Red Sox have two spots in their rotation to fill, and even with Daniel Bard spending the winter preparing as if he is going to start, they will need to address the issue of depth. Last year, it seemed as if depth wouldn't be a problem: they had Tim Wakefield, Alfredo Aceves, and Andrew Miller, signed Kevin Millwood when he was let go by the Yankees, and also minor leaguer Kyle Weiland if they needed another spot start or two.
They needed more than a spot start or two, though, as we are all trying to forget, and it turned out that going 10 deep with starters didn't mean much if those replacements didn't perform. Miller was bad, but the Red Sox were actually very successful in his starts -- other than that, there were issues, as Wakefield pitched as poorly as he had the year prior, Weiland was only good in 25-pitch stints, and Millwood left for Colorado before the Red Sox could bust open his "In Case Of Emergency" glass.
Miller has been re-signed, in order to compete for a spot on the roster in the spring, but as he wasn't enough in 2011, he won't be enough for 2012. The Red Sox need to look at the discarded remnants of other teams in order to find treasure within some else's trash, and a good place to look is Ross Ohlendorf.
Ohlendorf, you might remember, went 1-11 in 2010 for the Pittsburgh Pirates. This despite a 4.07 ERA, manageable 1.8 K/BB ratio, and just one homer allowed per nine. The Pirates' defense didn't even kill him (that time, anyway), as he allowed a .289 BABIP, despite pitching in front of a porous defense as a contact guy. If you want to talk about a poor luck season, then Ohlendorf can contribute to the conversation.
He also spent time on the 60-day DL with a latissimus dorsi strain -- the same kind of injury Jon Lester had last summer, just more severe -- and dealt with it again in 2011. He was limited to just 38 innings, was hammered (8.15 ERA, .386 BABIP), but mercifully spent most of the season recovering rather than trying to pitch through it again.
This injury might keep someone from giving him a legitimate shot at a rotation spot, in the same way Alfredo Aceves was scooped up late into last off-season's game due to a history of back trouble. That worked out well for Boston, as they were rewarded for their risk-taking with 90-plus innings and a player still under team control. Ohlendorf has just over three years of service time, hence Pittsburgh non-tendering him when they needed to open up a spot on th 40-man roster for former Red Sox farmhand Yamaico Navarro. He won't be Aceves, by any means, but he is someone who could do a better job in spot starts than anyone else the Red Sox currently have at Triple-A.
He is by no means excellent, or even very good, but pitchers with his peripherals are getting guaranteed contracts, some for multiple years. With a quality defense behind him -- and Boston has one -- Ohlendorf can certainly play the role of stop-gap pitcher, should someone or someones go down with injury in 2012. It's no guarantee he will be available in this role, but should the market for his services not form, as it didn't for Aceves a year ago, the Red Sox would be smart to give him a look. Depth is depth, and Ohlendorf can face major league hitting.
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If it's a split or minor league contract
or a contract like they gave Miller, I’d have not problem with this. The Sox need to have some experienced pitchers that could be stored in AAA, or long men, so if one the other pitchers gets hurt, which is almost certain happen. the pitcher they call up isn’t going to have a dear-in-headlights look.
How did the Pirates sign Bedard?
I would think one year at 4.5 million wouldn’t have been too hard for the Sox
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Cherington is "patient" and "meticulous"
which in my mind means “tentative” and “slow to act”
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
How about you wait till spring training to see what the team looks like before you truly judge him?
The off-sason hasn’t ended. There’s plenty of time to get somebody good. Not a lot of the attractive pitchers have signed. Bedard was good, but he’s too injury prone for me.
Exactly. The same people that are bitching about how the Sox aren't doing anything.
Would be the same people who’d be bitching if they were just throwing money around this off-season. We really have no damn clue what they are working on. We have reports, but we are not privy to the inside information of the every day operations of the club. Maybe they’re working on a trade or two. But putting out that information would be bad business because if it’s for a Gio or Danks, other teams who’d be interested could swoop in and give a better offer and the Sox would be left holding the bag. I’m totally fine with the approach.
Throwing money around like water
is different from pulling the trigger when the opportunity presents itself. A lot of players who could have really helped the Sox are off the board right now.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
A lot of players who could have really helped the Sox are still on the board though
And the longer they stay there, the more their prices could go down.
It’s a waiting game for the Sox with such a limited budget. They want the most bang for their buck, that kind of stuff usually happens later.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 9, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
You're right in one aspect.
It is about pulling the trigger when the opportunity presents it’s self, but frankly they weren’t going to be in on Wilson or Buerhle because of price. Bedard probably didn’t want to comeback here because he was hestitant to come here in the first place. There’s still a lot of quality players, via trade and FA. And as the other teams go bonkers signing players at ridiculous prices both in prospects and money, there’s less spots for them to go. Nobody would have predicted Madson would be just sitting there waiting for a contract at the beginning of the off-season.
that's a good point on Madson.
He’s gone from 4 years/45 mill to not even having a contract.
And the longer it goes like that.
It’s more and more likely he’ll take a contract that will be much less than what anybody thought. Like Beltre a few years ago. Same goes with trades the prices will come down because at a certain point the teams have to make a dea, esp if the player is disgruntled or not going to be on the team next yearand they want to get something for him.
Madson will get signed
Boras will work some magic spell on some unsuspecting team and get the deal he wants. I mean has Boras ever failed to get what he wants when he wants it. I bet the stats on Boras are pretty impressive.
Not if the Market is dried up, which has pretty much happened.
Most of the teams that have needed closers have filled that spot already, so he maybe forced to take the best offer available.
Boras says no
Damn it, no -we have Bard he can close.
We need a set up man or two and 2 starting pitchers.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
I wasn't talking about the Sox specifically.
The Reds, Orioles, and possibly the Angels are looking for closers.
Bard Closing
We really don’t know whether Bard can close. You have to have an"I am invincible" look,like Pap had. Failing to make a better effort earlier on to keep Papelbon will hurt this team a lot more then people realize.
You have to be a relief pitcher to close.
That’s about it.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 10, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
Remember when Madson couldn't close?
Until he could?
by abbreviatedman on Dec 10, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
And remember
how the WS winning Cardinals went through about 4 guys and didn’t really have a closer in the postseason. They had a “ninth inning guy” accoding to Tony La Russa.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
I Get A Kick
out of how many people who saw what the Cardinals did last year with their pen, and automatically think that every team has a Jason Motte or a Fernando Salas just knocking on the door.
Well they might
Salas was a pretty boring minor league pitcher for about 3 years until about 2008
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=salas-001fer
It's easier to find a reliever than it is a starter.
Best example of that is Papelbon and Bard. Both could start, but they’re better off in the bullpen.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
You have to have an"I am invincible" look,like Pap had
Completely and utterly false.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 10, 2011 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
If Pap's invincible look...
led to to truly invincible pitches, than John Lackey’s pitches would be too ugly to swing at. Unfortunately those ugly pitches get swung at, and hit, with regularity.
Jason Varitek says hello.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
So the one example you have
of Boras failing is for a 38 year old catcher on his last contract?
I think that says more about how Boras succeeds in getting what he wants v. failing. Who would of signed Varitek outside of Boston?
Your quote:
has Boras ever failed to get what he wants when he wants it.
My answer. Yes…he has.
Boras is the best in the business, there’s no doubt about it. But he’s not a @#$%ing hypnotist who can just create markets. Beltran is a quality player and will likely get a decent contract, especially since he has an excellent agent. But he’s not going to be magically overpaid just because it’s SCOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTT BORAS.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Ok so again
you want to nit pick on an obvious exaggeration and your two examples are Boras getting the Red Sox to sign a deal for a 38 year old catcher who signed a home town discount so he didnt have to retire and that Johnny Damon took less money to sign for a significant deal with Detroit? Wow impressive work, you got me. I promise to control my exaggeration next time (SARCASM, hilarious i have to spell that out but we dont want any misunderstandings, now do we).
Scott Boras is one of the most influential players in ALL of professional sports, he has more power than 90% of the GM in major league baseball and actively chooses where his players go and for how much in addition to creating markets for players where they never existed and convincing teams to big against themselves and against make believe teams that exist only in the minds of the teams he is currently in negotiations.
If you dont agree with that statement fine, prove it, dont nit pick and find contracts that actually lend more evidence to my argument and then hold it out in the open as if you found the Zapruder tape.
Not always
Boros has had more then one client who ended up with less then they should have,as Boras would over price them
What in the blue hell are you rambling on about?
Did you not see me say that Boras is the best in the game? It’s written right up there. @#$%in’ read it, man, and then come back down here…..
Settle down, slick.
Johnny Damon had a two-year offer from the MFY. Boras turned it down…he ended up signing a lesser deal with the Tigers. Why? Because the market wasn’t there…and Boras couldn’t “create” it. Jason Varitek could have accepted arbitration from the Red Sox and gotten paid about 10 million dollars. Boras turned it down and he ended up with $8M…over two years. The market wasn’t there and Boras couldn’t create it.
That happened. He is an amazing agent who can create some fantastic deals for his clients. But he cannot @#$%ing just create gold outta thin air. HE CANNOT.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Yeah Boras can smoke my pole.
Nobody reads those books he puts out anyway.
Also
If memory serves Damon’s contract with Detroit was less than the Yanks first offer.
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They didn't want him
4.5 million is easy money for them to spend on a starting pitcher. It’s clear they just didn’t really care to sign him. Or perhaps he didn’t care to come back. Who knows.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 9, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
maybe he didn't want to pitch for the Sox!
you don’t get to automatically sign every player you want.
Exactly. He was hestitant to come to the Sox in the first place.
Maybe he just didn’t want to come back. They didn’t have him in under contract past the end of the season, so he’s free to go whereever he wanted to go.
True
I guess I was just surprised by the lack of noise about Bedard. But if their was only one-way, or no interest between parties that would make sense.
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What?!?
that's total bullshit!
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 9, 2011 6:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No mutual interest
I read that the Sox were frustrated that he didn’t pitch thru things. Not tough enough in the midst of a pennant chase.
I’m sure he hated the media storm after the season. He can chill out in P’burg where most people probably forgot they have a baseball team.
simul justus et peccator
No idea
Haven’t heard a peep about him. Although now that the top guy Wilson’s gone he’s going to start coming out saying he’s looking for a 5 year deals. That sounds about right.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 9, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
If the Sox...
..fill Wake and Lackeys shoes with league average pitchers then it will be a great improvement. If those pitchers are Aceves and Bard, then they’re going to have to do better than league-average in filling Paps, Aceves and Bards BP spots. Otherwise it will be something of a wash.
Alex Wilson
If not for the rotation then at least the pen – the Sox should give Alex Wilson a look…I realize that he’s lost some time due to injury and has minimal AAA innings, but he’s 25 years old and has pretty decent stuff.
Yes, please.
He can help in the bullpen for sure.
by UltimateCranston on Dec 9, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
Cahill would be great!
this is where we should be looking… pitchers with good peripherals that are flying under the radar. hopefully ground ball pitchers.
i’d take a flyer on ohlendorf. we don’t need another ace, all we need to replace is the worst statistical pitcher in the league last year in lackey. should be relatively simple.
It's come to this
Wasting years where we are close
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
"Wasting Years While We Are Close"
You get it. Now is not the time to become miserly. Papelbon wasn’t kept,and in a couple of years, Ellsbury will walk. After that,the window closes.
Ellsbury had a career year and should be dealt
Papelbon was not worth keeping, when Bard or Aceves should be stepping in as closer.
My comment was more about going out and trading for a starting pitcher. I am not a big fan of spending in free agency. I think good teams are built through trades and the draft.
You use your drafted position players to fill a roster and trade for studs, and you extend those studs before they reach free agency.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Huh?
Sorry,Sandy,but to put Aceves and Bard on the level with Pap is just crazy. I love Aceves in the role he is in,and Bard the same.But, neither one compare with Pap.
Papelbon was a good reliever
but he was still just a reliever.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 10, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Relievers are not worth big money
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Why do people think a slam dunk closer isn’t worth much money? Don’t tell about $$ per inning. That is no way to evaluate their worth. When a team is ahead throughout the game, there is nothing more demoralizing then having some one come in and blow the game. The evidence is there. Teaams are getting it that a strong bullpen is a must.
I don't think they're worth much
Because I largely think any guy who is a good relief pitcher can do it. Bard is a good relief pitcher, I think some of the jams he’s gotten the team out of over the years are even more high pressure situations than getting a fresh inning in the ninth and being told not to blow it. Papelbon may have been very good, but I wouldn’t pay a guy $10M+ to pitch 60 innings, period, I don’t care how much better you think they are than what you have, it’s a grossly inefficient allocation of funds. We have a guy on the team who I think will more than adequately handle the job, I’d be willing to bet that if he got that job he’d be called ‘elite’ by the end of the year.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I think we've got three or four of those guys
Bard, Ace, Weiland, and maybe Wilson. Ace could actually provide 10 million in value if he pitched multiple innings as a closer.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 10, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
That all depends
Upon how well the team trades/drafts. Pedroia, Lester, Buchholz, Gonzalez, Crawford, Bard form a nice core and will likely be good players for another 4-5 years, if you supplement with strong drafts and good trades then you are competitive
Like we've done so well with them in the past
at least the flashy ones. I’m fine with short-term contracts but as we’ve seen long-term deals lead away from financial flexibility
Off Topic: Beltran
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-strangely-thin-beltran-market/
It’s like he doesn’t even have a market. No one seems to be talking about him, and I think the Sox might be able to get him for 2/18 or something. Probably optimistic, but it’d be nice to be able to trade Reddick for pitching AND have a right fielder.
he said
Probably optimistic, but it’d be nice to be able to trade Reddick for pitching AND have a right fielder.
Im screwing up tonight bad
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
My hope is that things stay dry for him
We flip Reddick (and change) for a good arm and Stop-gap with a decently-got Beltran. That would ease that gnawing feeling I have in my guts right now.
I think.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
we need 2 starting pitchers
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Yeah. I know.
But at least if we landed Beltran on a decent deal I wouldn’t feel like Ben C. completely @#$%ed the dog. It would be a “well…there ya go!”
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Trade
Reddick,Lowrie, and Doubront for Gio and Fuentes/Balfour.
not enough, not close to enough
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
actually,
considering what the A’s wanted for Cahill and Breslow, I’m pretty sure 2 major league ready bats and a ML ready arm would be more than enough.
I think about calling him that too when I can't remember how many 'r's are in his last name.
However, if Reddick, Lowrie and Doubront is the cost, you pull the trigger absolutely. That is a steal. Reddick, I think can be a regular player, his defense is there and his bat has potential, even if it isn’t particularly exciting. Lowrie, solid when healthy, however is rarely healthy at this point, he doesn’t have a lot of trade value. And then you have Doubront who is major league ready, sort of, it’s clear to me he lacks drive, showing up at camp unfit for baseball in a year when he really could ahve made a positive impact for the team. Now, I think he’s more likely to end up a relief pitcher than a starter.
Gio is a better pitcher, and they got a top 50 pitching prospect in return for Cahill, we don’t have that.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
It's just a little scary giving up so much of our young position player depth
for Gio, who might not even be that good.
Cherrington would pull the trigger on that deal.
But as you said about them getting a top 50 pitching prospect for Cahill, Billy Beane probably wouldn’t. He would probably hang up the phone laughing if that’s the best package we could offer him for Gio.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
Trade For Gio
I can see the Yankees finnaly surrendering Montero to get Gio.
you have to be kidding
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
not two fairly bad ML ready bats and a ML ready arm who basically skipped last season because he was out of shape.
Parker was a very good pitching prospect- probably better than any we have.
Add in a couple more prospects and maybe you'd get close but
I highly doubt the Sox have enough even sniff Gio Gonzalez.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Cashman is even more reluctant to give up his prospects than whoever's in control of the Sox.
The A’s have asked for Montero, Banuelos, Batences, and Mason Williams. He automatically said no. Maybe if they come off the their asking price he’ll do it, but I highly doubt Billy Beane’s going to budge.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
I would too.
My point was it’s going to take a guy like King Felix to become available for Cashman to give up his top flight prospects, not a possible one year wonder in Gio.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
Gio
has put together two very good seasons in a row, with a bad ball club
his road numbers are not close to his home numbers
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
though to be fair,
they aren’t bad numbers and he’s under team control for a long time. He’s not gonna be an ace or anything, but he’s a good pitcher.
Perpetual Rebuilding
Beane should hold on to Gonzales. He is a cost controlled quality pitcher. At some point, you have to use those good young players to try and field a good team,rather then continually flipping them over for more prospects.
well they have a particular endgame in mind at this point
which is trying to compete starting in 3 or so years, when they think they’ll be moving to San Jose. So right now, I think his goal is specifically to stock up on players who will be making an impact then- that would include Gio, so I’m thinking they probably will hold onto him unless someone offers a stupid amount for him.
Agreed
No matter where they finished offensivly, RF was a real week spot. A healthy Beltran greatly improves the team.
well it was
but, really that’s because the ghost of JD Drew was starting half the games. I realize he slid somewhat, but at the end of the year, Reddick’s numbers are at least competent offensively and his defense is great. This isn’t to say that I don’t think Beltran would improve the team, just that I think if there’s a limit to the money we can spend, I’d rather see it more heavily allocated towards pitching than towards Beltran.
If Reddick was a piece that could get us a great pitcher for almost no money, that’d be great, but I don’t think he has that much value as a trade piece.
Beltran is not worth what it will cost
This team needs to get younger, not older.
No to free agents like Beltran
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
I only say grab Beltran
if you can flip Reddick for pitching. Then you have pitching (HUGE NEED) and Kalish waiting to take right field in a couple years (youth).
I’m personally fine with Reddick in right for the full year.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I just think Kalish will never be healthy
if we can hold onto Beltran long enough to see if Hassan or Westmoreland is ready and healthy enough then do it, but right now we’ve got Reddick for at least five years.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 10, 2011 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
True
but Beltran probably is not the best choice. If Crawford bounces back then having Reddick in right gives us one of the better defensive outfields in the league.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 10, 2011 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
I completely misunderstood what you were saying.
yeah, there’s no reason we shouldn’t be able to sit him near the bottom of the order and see which Reddick we have.
Just to be clear
I’d probably rather have Reddick than Beltran…if that money can be used elsewhere. But we need pitching. If Reddick can get us pitching, I think we grab Beltran if the price is right.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
the team only has 3-5 million to spend
according to the globe this morning
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Goddammit I'm glad Theo's gone.
Thanks a bunch.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
My thought is that he was great for a good part of his tenure
but that you can’t view his whole residency with the same glasses. He made some moves that were really bad, especially towards the end, and we’re saddled with some serious lack of flexibility because of it.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I think that's becasuse he started to get cocky with his moves.
I think that’s why it’s actaully a good thing we have have Cherington in his spot, because now Lucchino has more power. I still stand by my prediction that a trade we don’t see happening will happen, and that will allow us flexibilty. Lucchino on WEEI said that a major trade is alwayss a possibility, he would know what the Red Sox are working on more than anybody on this blog.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 11, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
Ellsbury Youkilis or Beckett
are the names I think could be moved, of all of those Beckett makes the least sense I realize that.
The long shot trade would be Crawford to Washington for Werth. I think that would address RF and give us a little bit of flexability.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
I think of those three, it's most likely to be Ellsbury.
Right now he could bring a lot back. The other two: trading Beckett would be counter productive, and Youkilis’ value wouldn’t yield a great return. Maybe that will change come the trade deadline.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 11, 2011 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
the league caught up to what made him great in his first 3 seasons
he will prove out in Chicago that he is not what he was once thought to be.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Theo was really good for a while
but our lack of a farm system and out current payroll kind of tells a story.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 12, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
'zactly
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
no, no, that's not true
that’s Cafardo saying that they may only have $3-5 million to spend on a starter because he thinks they’re spending on a right fielder. That math doesn’t add up. Especially since he still thinks they might pursue Madson, which really doesn’t add up. Also, he thinks Ortiz is getting $14-16 million in arbitration, which is silly. Everyone else I’ve seen has pointed at around $14 million as the ceiling.
What I’ve taken out of that article is that Cafardo has no freaking clue what the budget looks like. His numbers are just based off them not wanting to exceed the luxury tax limit- which, I believe it was Speier did a much more in depth look at recently and, while it wasn’t exactly encouraging, was more positive than that.
Which is curious on Cafardo's part.
He knows they need starting pitching, why would he think they are going to pursue a RF, when their offense will be just fine if Reddick is playing RF. Maybe he’s hearing Reddick could be traded for a SP, but to not put that in his column, is a strange. I do agree with you on his seeming to not know the budget.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 11, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
Gammons has said same thing in different interviews
5-8 million total after Ortiz is all they have left.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
also, don't repsond with
“Gammons is always wrong”
That’s bullspit, because Gammons has been right so much in the last year with this club it’s amazing.
Every single time Gammons reports something idiots say “that’s just Gammons being Gammons”, or “Gammons needs to retire”. BULL
The man is right about whats going on with this club more than anyone else. I’m tired of people saying otherwise.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Also Rosenthal had an article this morning.
Stating that the Red Sox need to burst through the Luxury tax level. And that according to rival executives, the Sox only have $8 million to spend, which is motivating them to trade Scutaro, and that picking up his option is a little curious at this point.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 11, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
yeah
he called the John Lackey TJ surgery months before it became public knowledge.
And, if I remember correctly,
we mocked him mercilessly for it.
Whoops.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
He seems kinda senile,
but the man was right
Yeah Gammons knows exactly what's going on
Everyone says he doesn’t because he says things that sound completely absurd, and then isn’t proven right until months afterwards. I don’t really trust his opinions of our farm because he tends to like them way too much, but yeah, he definitely knows what’s going on.
that could be right
I just think that if that’s the case, that $5-8 million goes into pitching, not a right fielder.
A healthy Beltran
Marginally improves a great offense, and has a huge negative impact on our ability to sign 2 starting pitchers. We didn’t lose a RF to TJ surgery, we did lose two starting pitchers. Unless Beltran can pitch, he is not what we should be spending money on.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I'm assuming the team comes to it's senses and realizes that a big money reliever
Is a worse allocation of funds than a big money starter.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Well Aceves was had on the cheap last year
so if he moves into say the 5th slot, it is very conceivable that he could be replaced on the cheap with someone like Alex Wilson
The problem with that is that they did not grab the one guy who might have put them over the top this year aned next, C.J.Wilson. Now, they have to grab one or two of the relievers left on the market,,or trade for a Gio Gonzales type.
CJ Wilson doesn't put any team over the top
you cannot be serious.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
And Lackey had a longer track record
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Lackey was in clear decline; Wilson just had his best year
I did NOT want us to pursue CJ Wilson (too expensive), but I don’t really see the comparison people are making to Lackey. Both are/were 31 years old when they signed their new deals; otherwise, they are very different pitchers with very different backgrounds.
By 'big money' I mean relative to our budget, probably an $8M acquisition
I’d rather spend $8M on say Kuroda (if we can get him for that), than $8M on any available reliever you could name. CJ was not in our budget and I wouldn’t have paid him anywhere near what he got, I wouldn’t have gone much over the $50M that Dempster got.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
When healthy
there isn’t a thing on a baseball field Beltran can’t do.He is a switch hitter who hits HR’s and drives in runs. He will take a walk. He will steal occasionally, and rarely get thrown out. He will get from 1st to 3rd better then most,or 2nd to home.He can play a decent CF if Ellsbury gets hurt. He will handle RF in Fenway better then most. People love to trash Drew,but his work in RF will be missed. I would rather see G Gonzales here,but Beltran sure could make a difference.
Just out of curiousity, have you watched much of Beltran from his return?
because, don’t get me wrong, he is still a good player, but really not anything like the monster he used to be.
From what I saw of him last year (which was a decent amount since I watch a lot of Giants games), he’s still a pretty good baserunner, but really is not a base-stealer at all anymore and has slowed a bit- which has really hurt his defense. I would say at this point, he’s probably a below average right fielder by a bit and not really a viable center fielder (which is fine!).
I agree with you that he’d be an offensive difference-maker but, as you say below, he’s not what they need most. I’d rather see them sign him than do nothing but I’m HOPING they’ll do something good to address the pitching.
I haven’t watched him play to much. Just going by what the boxscores tell me.I know he is not the player he once was, but last year, he was pretty good.
But if you're going by box scores
Where is the “He’ll steal occasionally and rarely gets thrown out”
He ran 6 times last year and got thrown out twice.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 10, 2011 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
OK
You’ve got me there. But, his career base stealing percentage is quite good.
Career base stealing percentage
Can’t be relied on for future predictions. You lose speed as you get older. Thus, his base-stealing numbers when he was 25 doesn’t really mean anything. Which is why he only tried stealing 6 times last year.
Base-stealing or the potential thereof is not an advantage Beltran provides. Which is just fine, no need to try and pretend it is. He’s older, and base-stealing is overrated in some people’s opinions.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 11, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
I agree Drew's defense will be missed, though.
But his speed isn’t what it was at all. And Beltran hits OK with RISP which is nice. Not really worth a multi-year deal, but a 1 year with an option would be ok if he was cheap.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 10, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Does he pitch?
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
You agree that we need a right fielder this year, right?
Reddick is a good trade chip for a pitcher, and Beltran would be a great addition.
I disagree with the need
I think it’s the most easily upgraded offensive position we have right now, however I think the need to upgrade the offense is far, far, far,far below the need to upgrade pitching, namely that we only have 3 pitchers ready to go who we know can start at a major league level. I think Reddick can hold down his spot fine, he fields the position well and his bat still has potential. I don’t think he is a liability at all, as such I don’t think he’s worth replacing with the limited funds we have. Plus we’ve got Kalish, the club has already shown they think he’s a major league player, he won’t be spending much time in AAA unless it’s for health reasons (always a possibility with him).
With what I believe the budget to be, I don’t think its as easy as signing Beltran and trading for a pitcher, we can afford one or the other. Not both.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
If Kalish is indeed ready to go this year,
then no, we don’t need Beltran.
Why is everyone jumping on the Kalish train?
I think reddick’s at least won the starters role coming out of spring training.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 10, 2011 8:30 PM EST up reply actions
Reddick has certainly won the starters role for now.
I know you don’t trust Kalish’s health, but from a prospect point of view I’ve felt Kalish was a better player. Sure he gets hurt a lot, but I tend to think it’s not he himself that is injury prone, but rather his style of play that leads to injury, and I think he can be taught to be less reckless.
I think Reddick should be the starter as long as he plays at a starter level, but if he falls below that level, I’d rather we give Kalish a look than Beltran.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I think Kalish is more talented than Reddick
but if he’s on the DL he’s useless. Same as Youk, Youk is an awesome player, but his play style at third means we’re only getting about 2/3rds of a season from him.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 10, 2011 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
"Kalish is more talented than Reddick"
that’s why I jumped on the Kalish train
But he's only more talented if he can stay on the field
And he hasn’t so far.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 12, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
It's not "meh"
I’d rather have 140 mediocre games from Reddick than 30 decent games from Kalish and 130 shitty games from whomever they replace him with.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 12, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
It's just meh because
didn’t he hurt himself running into a wall or something? It’s not the same as a guy with a body that’s always breaking down. If you broke a bone tomorrow, it wouldn’t say much about your long term health. You deal with it, it heals and you go back to what you were doing before.
by revived0103 on Dec 12, 2011 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
If that was the only time, I'd agree
but it’s not.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 12, 2011 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
On topic, I would be fine with a flyer on Ohlendorf
His swinging strike % and contact % do support a higher K ability than he has displayed, although there isn’t much upside. Health is really the main issue.
"We’re the Sox. Not Apple Sox. We ain’t no Barbeque Sox. We’re the Red Sox.’’ - David Ortiz
Maholm
What’s the feeling him as a fifth starter?
Depends on the market for Jackson.
If Jackson’s market gets depressed I think we could get Maholm for cheap.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 10, 2011 2:23 AM EST up reply actions
Ohlendorf in place of Bedard?
Not excited about it…..but “cant hurt”
"You're either carrying a spear, or running from it"
by BigSpearDiplomacy on Dec 10, 2011 6:39 AM EST reply actions
definitely not that
Ohlendorf isn’t really a good choice for even a fifth starter, in my mind but, if he’s devalued to the point where he’ll be willing to sign a minor league contract, he strikes me as exactly what we need for depth.
You Get What You Pay For
Unless he blossoms into someone special, he will not help the Sox become a WS team.
Bedard would have been a much better gamble. This austerity program they are on is an insult.
C.J. Wilson
This is the guy they needed to make a serious run next year. Plain and simple.He would have been well worth it. If not he, then Gio Gonzales should have been traded for by now.If you plug holes with mediocrity,that’s what you will get.
+1
He’s only been a starter for two years. Plus he’s over 30. Not a good combination.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
Wilson is not worth it
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Yeah but ESPN says he is good
So he must be worth it!!
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 10, 2011 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
Cherington
Appears to be trying to impress his bosses by not recommending anyone who will improve the team. Never thought I would miss Theo, but as incompetent as he was in identifying the right FA’s,at least he would go to ownership and ask for the money. Face it. This team is now in the hands of the ThreeStoogesmand Bobby Valentine,with V being the only good thing. Cherington is a joke.
You do realize that the Three Stooges have led the Sox to two WS.
Which have been more successful than just about any other ownership group can say. If you don’t like what they have done, and our doing, go root for another team.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
for real
anyone who is complaining about our ownership group at this point is just plain ridiculous.
I think it 's because mos people think they are like the Yankees and can spend an unlimitedless amounts of money.
Most people think that the money spent is from John Henry’s pocket. Which is not the case. It mainly come from the revenue generated by the club through ticket sales et al., which you already know. Also, most people don’ t realize that transactions take a long to make. They usually don’t just pop up and happen. The Pujols singing happened because the new TV deal for the Angels was approved before he was signed, who knows where he would have signed, if the TV deal wasn’t approved. Just because they aren’t active on December 10, doesn’t meant they aren’t working their asses off to try and make moves. I would highly dobt that the ownership group and FO, who are as competitive as the players, are just stiiting around twiddling their thumbs crying the poverty. We have no clue what they are truly working on. Do we know they are interested in a few players, yeah but they maybe working on a deal with a plaayer or players that have been mentioned at all.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
haven’t been, is what I meant in the last sentence.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
I do think complaints on the Crawford/Lackey/Beckett deals
are perfectly fine.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
complaints on deals are fine
even complaining about the GM is fine. But to call the owners who came in and promptly won the first 2 championships in 86 years “the three stooges” is just a little ridiculous. Their job, as far as I’m concerned, is to keep the organization making money and then being willing to spend it, and they’ve done that incredibly well.
I love Werner and Henry
Lucchino grinds my gears a little.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 10, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
Yes that I agree with
Werner, Larry, and Henry are fine by me.
Larry runs the show, the stat geeks look at Theo, Ben whoever is supposed to be in charge of baseball ops and cry about Larry at length. I personally think more Larry is a good thing, guy has a proven record of doing well in Boston, and should get just as much if not more, credit than Theo.
Go cry stat geeks
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Don’t you get the feeling that they think they have done enough? Do those titles give them a free ride for the rest of eternity?
No, I don't, not at all
if that were the case, I think they would’ve not spent $300 million last offseason and a bunch more the season before.
What gives you that impression?
I think it would be normal to feel that way. They arrived at the right time, did some good things, and got a couple of titles. They may think, well,we gave them something they have wanted for 86 years,we should be able to get a lot of good will for many years.We will present a team that will compete, and that should be good enough.
All they can do is give us team that is good enough to compete.
Winning the WS depends on a lot more than just spending money.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Up untill a couple of days ago,they hadn’t done anything to make the team a serious candidate for a sustained run. Now,they have made a couple of smart moves. Meloncan is a steal. The man has proven himself at the major league level, where Weiland has not.Whether or not that good year will translate to the AL East, and the pressure cooker that is Boston, we will have to see. Punto will be a good replacement for Lowrie. . They have talked about going beyond the tax threshold. Let’s hope that means Darvish.
yeah but that's just speculation with no basis
the fact is that they keep investing more and more into the team.
I don't think they think that
I do think sometimes they work on being a little too efficient, but I think they’ve always done that. They don’t slash payroll and they make some huge investments for the team, at no point do I ever think they aren’t trying.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I'm not saying they aren't fine. I've made complaints about Lackey, and Crawford.
My main point is these owners and FO do what they think is best for the club, just like every other ownership and FO of the other 29 clubs. Some are clearly better at their jobs than others. They clearly felt those players gave the Red Sox the best chance to win WS, which is what it’s all about. Other than paying for tickets, watching games, buying merchandise, concessions, et al. we really have no say over what they do or do not do. Would I have loved a big splash to have happened already? Of course I would. But do I think they are just sitting around not doing anything to improve this team? Absolutely not. Do we really know if they are or aren’t going to put a bid in for Darvish? No. Would I be surprised if they did? No. Will I complain if they do? I’ll wait to see how he pitches before I complain. Unless anybody on this blog is sitting in on the Red Sox daily meetings, and can confirm that they aren’t overturning every potential option, both through FA and trades to improve this club, I think it’s asinine to say they were happy the way last season ended, and don’t want the Red Sox to be hoisting the WS trophy, just because they haven’t made a “big” move, yet. There’s still over 70 days till spring training, there will be a least one or two “big” moves made before than, I can gaurantee it.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously
How many years of not making it will it take for people to stop pointing to 04 and 07.?
a lifetime hopefully
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
I don't get it
they haven’t scaled back spending or anything. If you want to blame Theo and say the team hasn’t been well constructed, that’s a fair criticism, but what reasonably would you have the owners do that they haven’t done? It’s not like they’re constantly penny-pinching or anything- still the second largest payroll in baseball- it’s just that you need to understand that there IS a certain, finite budget.
we have one of the best ownership groups in mlb
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
I just think that Henry, being a billionaire, and a part of a very exclusive club,being an owner,should not be afraid to add as much as it would logically take to put them over the top every year. The return on a championship season rewards them in so many ways. There is still a lot of off season left,maybe they will surprize us and get that good 4th starter and closer.
the problem is
just dumping the most money in doesn’t guarantee a championship. They have been out of the playoffs an embarrassing amount of time right now, but it’s not because ownership isn’t spending money.
A lot of owners can spend more on payroll than they currently do
But they don’t. We’re lucky enough to be able to afford a Top 3 or so payroll in all of baseball and added a ton last offseason. One of the reasons they were comfortable adding so much last offseason was because they didn’t think they would have to add a lot more this offseason. They can’t just keep adding payroll every offseason because they didn’t win the WS.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 10, 2011 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
Another
Completely and utterly false statement.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 10, 2011 8:32 PM EST up reply actions
What the @#$%?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Not on my end Sean
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Great idea for a fanpost!
Robert57 should create a comprehensive list of which WS titles were accidental and which were intentional, going back to the beginning of MLB. I’d read the HELL out of that.
Throwing Money Around
Believe me, I would love to see them throw some money around in an attempt to provide the region with a better team.. The following players would have helped: C.J. Wilson would have been the right pitcher at the right time,rounding out what would have been a good starting four. Eric Bedard:Would have been as good a gamble as there was. It’s pretty sad when the Pirates can afford him and the sox won’t. Any two of the following relievers:Madson, Oliver, Saito, Ayala and K-rod, had he not accepted arbitration.Not one of them will be coming here. The result will be a lot of shuffling of pitchers who excelled at what they did, in order to fill out a staff. Reyes: would have given them the true leadoff hitter they need,allowing Ellsbury to move back into a power spot. His hitting speaks for itself. His fielding might have shaved a half an earned run from last year. For the next three years, at least, he would have been woth every penny. Fielder: letting papi walk and signing Fielder is as good as it gets. To have Prince, Gonzales,and Ellsbury,3-4-5 would have allowed them to beat opponents into submission. At 27, he would be an elite, game changing force with the other two, for many years. Ramon Hernandez. He would have cost them 6 million over two years to bring in a proven veteran catcher who can also hit. Non tender Salty and Let lavernway grow into the position. Ahh, what’s the use. They are turning cheap, and most people will lap it up and saay it’s okay.
Bedard didn't want to come here originally so he probably didn't want to come back.
They weren’t going spend $15+ million on a pitcher becase they have many long term contracts in their pitching staff, so CJ Wilson was never coming here. Madson, Oliver, Saito, and Ayala haven’t signed, so you honestly don’t whether they are coming here or not. Reyes, is extremely injury prone, and you can’t say Ellsbury will continue his power surge, he’s going to regress next year, so keeping him in the leadoff position is a good idea. You want to let Papi walk and Sign Fielder to be the DH. You have to pay Fielder 24 or 25 million to be a DH, which is ridiculous. Ramon Hernandez is bad defensively. This team was the best team in baseball for four months, they really don’t need a lot.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 9:28 AM EST up reply actions
Unbelievable!
You actually think that a guy who hit 32 HR’s should bat leadoff? A guy who isn’t the base stealer he once was? You worry about Reyes’s injuries, and ignore what he has accomplished as a player and how much his bat, glove and speed would help te Sox?. You worry about Prince Fielder costing to much, at his age,with his durability and talent? You don’t think that he, Gonzo and Ellsbury (if they ever sign him) would not be an incredible core of run production for the next 5 to 6 years? You don’t thing sending out 4 quality starters would be worth the cost? Do you want to win, or are you satisfied with last years team? You have an owner who is a billionaire, and your concerned about the payroll? Thank God your not in charge. It’s people like you that allow them to get away with doing nothing to improve a seriously flawed team at the winter meetings.
He hit 32 home runs last year.
One freaking year. If he does that again, then move him out of the lead off spot. Until then keep right where he is. I want guys that can play more than 80 or 90, which Reyes has failed to do the last couple seasons, games if I’m going to be paying them $17 millon a year. Where would play Fielder? RF? First base is taken. You complain about Ortiz making $16 million, which is only what he’ll make if they can’t come to an agreement on a long term deal, and ignore the fact that you’re paying probably 8-10 million dollars more for Fielder to play the same position. Wilson has been starting for two years, is over thirty, neither one signifies he’s worth the contract he got from the Angels. I’m not satisified with last year’s team, but to say that only getting one of those players is going to make or break the Red Sox season is a freaking joke. John Henry doesn’t spend his own money on this team, they spend the revenue they raise from things like their TV deal with NESN, ticket sales, concession sales, merchandise sales, etc. I don’t know if you know this but the Winter Meetings aren’t the only time clubs can make deals. There’s no rule against making deals now or before July 31.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
Fielder
Not that I think he would come, and be a DH,but its something you should at least consider and be willing to make it happen if you could.
They probably did,
but at the cost of $200 million+ it’s just plain to dumb to pay a player that amount of money to just hit.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
two 100+ million contracts is enough
don’t forget we’ve got to re-sign Ellsbury if he does want to come back, have to extend Buch and Lester, and Pedroia will need a new contract in three years.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 10, 2011 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
Buch was extended last year
although, no sure why just yet.
Still waiting on 200 innings from the guy.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
ELLSBURY
I can live with a barren winter if they actually do keep Ellsbury beyond 2013.
will not happen
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
How many times are you going to bring up this flawed idea
Of moving Ellsbury behind slow runners. Seriously, Fielder and Gonzo? That makes ZERO sense and yet you have brought up this notion for one reason. You want to pad Ellsbury’s stats. Do you understand that moving him back simply moves RBIs away from Gonzo and onto him?
You completely ignore the reality of professional sports. Feel free to think that people are “lapping it up” because they do understand how things ACTUALLY work. Follow a team that has a small payroll and cheap ownership for ONE year. Just one year to gain actual perspective.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 10, 2011 8:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We don't have a limitless payroll
I think your missing that point. Contracts for Reyes/Fielder/Wilson just aren’t feasible with the long term commitments already on the books.
“Turning cheap?” Holy wow, I just saw that. Go away.
Not All
but they sure could have and should have signed one of them.
Wilson
One of the best left handed pitchers around, wouldn’t help round out the staff?. Lester Wilson Bucholtz and Beckert =a trip to the post season.
Not if they don't all stay healthy.
Which is has a high probablity of happening.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
and hogtie you to a ton of money in starting arms
When you have three starters at 1-3 there is no NEED to bring in a top-flight guy.
Also – its Buchholz
by BobZupcic on Dec 10, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The point of this offseason is to find complementary pieces.
Not over react to the fact they had six weeks of bad baseball, and completely ignore they were best team in the sport for a majority of the season. A guy like Edwin Jackson through FA, or John Danks or Gavin Floyd just to name two pitchers available via trade, because we don’t know who is truly available, would arguably put the Red Sox right back in the mix of being one of the best teams, if not the best team in baseball.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
And I'd rather have Jackson than Wilson
based on merit alone, nevermind contracts.
We're not going to have a payroll approaching $200 million
We just aren’t. We shouldn’t be that spoiled to demand it, either.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 10, 2011 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
When I saw Ohlendorf had been released
I thought the exact same thing
Check out my blog at http://conor-soxrox.blogspot.com
If the Boston Red Sox go and trade for Joe Saunders
he is a lock to have the kind of year Lackey had last season.
What an awful, awful move that would be.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
I don't understand that interest at all
presumably the interest is because he would be practically free prospect-wise, but he won’t be good and he won’t be cheap, moneywise. If we were interested in getting someone like that, we should go back in time and try to get someone like Capuano or Chen, who probably won’t be too good, but we’d have for two years for about the same amount of money, rather than just one.
He will get what between 6-8 million
that is ridiculous
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
I don't know how he is supposed to be worth that.
Just because he throws innings (bad innings!) doesn’t mean he should earn $8M…
Excuse me while I vomit
let’s stop acquiring former Angels m’kay Cherry?
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 10, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
the level of agreement between you and I in recent weeks
is sickening.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
That includes...
..the ideas I hear about getting K-Rod.
K-Rod's problems are in his head not his arm
That guy can still pitch and pitch well.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 10, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with this. I don't know why they'd be interested in him.
Hopefully, it’s just to light a fire underneath another team’s butt to do a deal. We don’t really who they’d be willing to give up for him, and maybe it’s somebody that another team values, and if they have the potential of losing said player, maybe they’d be willing to do a deal a little more quickly. Saunders would be about the last, okay, John Lackey would be the last pitcher I’d want on this staff next year, but Saunders is a close second.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 10, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Saunders
is the kind of guy who would thrill many of the posters on this site.Not expensive, and not very good.
He would probably cost too much
for what his role would be (4th/5th) on this team. That said, a 4th/5th are what we need – so big-named pitchers are likely out of the question, i.e. there is no need to spend a tone of dough on back-end starters
I don't think he'd thrill anybody
He’s not very cheap and he is bad
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Booooo
When I saw this article had over 100 comments, I was really hoping all of them would be about Ross Ohlendorf. Because that would be amazing.
Does anyone think...
that we should sign Manny and move Crawford to right field?
or maybe...
sign Manny, move Crawford to center and trade Ellsbury
as aubatron said, Crawford's arm would likely cause a lot of damage in right
in addition, though, Manny’s legs can’t handle the outfield. And I’ll be surprised if the year off did any wonders for his hitting. Not to mention that he didn’t leave on the best of terms.
Haha, yeah
On the list of reasons NOT to sign Manny, the fact that Crawford doesn’t have a great arm for right field is like #200 on the list.
I actually thought revived0103 was joking at first.
No I fantasize about signing him...
but with Ortiz at DH there’s no room for him at all. But I’m sure somebody out there would rather have him than Crawford at this point.
by revived0103 on Dec 11, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
I totally agree. Praise the Lord this is the most sensible, refreshing, outside of the box idea I have heard to date this offseason. It is unconventional, daring fresh new concepts like these that we need to be paying more attention to.
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Oof
I wouldn’t wish this upon anyone. Ross is an extremely intelligent guy (he’s done off season internships with the Federal Gov’t, went to Princeton, etc.), but I think that works against him sometimes. When you watch him, it feels like he overanalyzes his pitches on the mound, and doesn’t focus so much on execution. I think Ross can be a serviceable starter in the league (read as #5 or swingman), but he’s also had a drop in his velocity recently that also hurt his effectiveness quite a bit. He used to sit 93 and reach 95, but now he sits just barely around 90 and tops out at 93. Not a huge difference, but certainly has hurt his effectiveness as a pitcher
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He really only said he's prepping to be a starter.
But he can always go back into the bullpen. Like what the Rangers did with Feliz the last two seasons. If you read the full article he said they are going to get him to the 18-20 inning mark and than sit down with him and dicuss what’s his best role. My bet is he winds up back in the bullpen because they won’t have a closer.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 11, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
I think it's kind of smart idea.
Bard at the beginning of the season has always had mechanical issues. Having him prepare during the winter will allow him to work on those mechanical issues, so when he goes back into the bullpen, repeating those mechanics for one inning won’t be that hard. Therefore he’ll be more effective.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 11, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
If nothing else
Maybe it’ll help him stretch his arm out so he can be effective for 100ish innings as a reliever (ala Aceves or whatever # of innings he threw) compared to 60-70.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 11, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
If it's for both his longevity and health
then i’m totally behind it. If it’s to disastrously shift him to be a starter, I am not. I wish I trusted our medical staff and decisionmakers not to screw this one up.
Umm....yeah.
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kind of, they reorganized it so no one is in exactly the same position he is
he is still involved with the team. For the record, outside of the organization, he’s a very, very well respected doctor. I believe he’s also still the head doctor or whatever for the Patriots and Bruins
But seriously...
stop acting like you know he’s going to be “disastrous” as a starter. He’s obviously a great pitcher and he carries so much more potential value as a starter.
It is "potential value"
Not “likely value”. The actual evidence shows that he busted as a starter and hasn’t started a game since Low-A ball because of it.
So it is potential….that is very unlikely to be found.
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It just feels pretty low-risk to me
Do I think Bard will be a successful starter? Not really. But if he is, that will give us a HUGE boost, and if he’s not, then I suspect they’ll move him very quickly back to relief.
The only big danger is that he’ll hurt his arm. But let’s face it, it’s not like we really have any idea what’s good or bad for a pitcher’s arm anyway—we wouldn’t have so many pitchers getting injured if we did. Starting for a bit could just as easily help him gain strength and flexibility for the season than hurt him.
If it really is that easy to plop him back into relief, well fine.
I suspect it’s not though. And that is where my concern pops in. The guy goes from high- adrenaline stopper situations to rhythmic starter situations….and then just go back to being the adrenaline guy? I just don’t think it’s that easy.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
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OTM | Silver Seven
I'm guessing there are no adrenaline situations in ST
So as long they make their mind up before the season starts I’m sure he’ll be fine
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He's only going to be probably starting 4 times,
and if he sucks, he’s back in the bullpen. If he’s good, he might get a chance to start for awhile it’s that simple I think what’s going to happen is somehow they figure out how to get a fourth starter, via trade or FA, and then they’ll have an open competition for the fifth spot, with Bard, Aceves, Miller, Wilson, a couple big league starters on minor league deals, maybe Britton, if he’s not trade, and whoeever best gets the first crack to be the fifth starter, and they wait till he sucks or hits an innings limit, in Bard or one of the young guys.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 11, 2011 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
The risk is in that, we don't have a lot of money
We get EITHER a bullpen ace or another starter, not both. So if we commit to Bard as starter and buy a closer, and he fails as starter, yeah we bump him back in the pen, but we’re left with an equally bad option to start because we have no money, welcome back Andrew Miller.
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He has developed as a pitcher since then.
I doubt he would’ve been successful in the big league bullpen while he was at single-A. Does that mean that we shouldn’t put him in the bullpen? He couldn’t get big league hitters out then; now, he can.
by revived0103 on Dec 11, 2011 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
But he can reach it, in general
It’s not like he’s soft-tossing, this is a man who has serious stuff who couldn’t get 18 year old pipsqueaks and 22 year old college non-stars out.
And he hasn't gotten better since then?
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
go here
http://www.soxprospects.com/players/bard-daniel.htm
Look at how drastic the change in numbers is from when he went from starting to relieving. It’s not subtle. No, it doesn’t mean that he’ll be a historically bad starter, and frankly, if we had a great bullpen with some solid, proven pitchers, I’d be all for it. In this situation, however, it limits our possibilities for the winter. We have limited money, so we’re unlikely to get both 2 starting pitchers and a closer. I think the money we have is best spent on the starting rotation, and I think that Bard has a greater chance of success in the bullpen.
In reality, what I expect to see happen is that they’ll acquire one legit starter and then go into spring training stretching out Bard, Aceves, Doubront, Miller, and Tazawa with a competition for one spot. Probably the end result will be that Bard is our closer, Tazawa is in Pawtucket until someone gets hurt, and either Aceves or Doubront is a starter.
I totally agree with you.
I just think to judge Bard from almost 5 years ago, and say he hasn’t gotten better and hasn’t learned is idiotic. People have missed what Bobby V actually said. He didn’t say Bard will be a starter for the whole season, he just said they’ll stretch him out in spring training (basically four starts) then go from there and determine where his best spot is, for him and the team. Like you said, they’ll probably get a legit 4th starter, then have a competition for the fifth starter, and that will be the rotating spot all season, but Bard probably won’t be part of that rotation because he’ll be in the bullpen closing out games most likely.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
If at no point after Single A someone tried to use him again as a starter?
Yup.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
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Not complicated, really.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Yeah I get it now.
He’s the exact same pitcher as he was then. He hasn’t improved, developed, or changed at all since Single-A. Keep him in the bullpen.
by revived0103 on Dec 12, 2011 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
This is such a ridiculous argument
He isn’t the same ballplayer he was in single A, so maybe we can put him in right field. The only difference is, he has 100% failed when he started.
Or, looking at actual evidence.
One or the other.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
But he made a decision quite early to commit to the bullpen.
If I remember correctly.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
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OTM | Silver Seven
looks like it was March 23 they decided to keep him in the pen
it does sound like it was primarily his decision. If Bard is sent to the bullpen, we’ll also hear about how it was his decision.
Okay, this might be a bad idea...
But has anybody looked into Chris Volstad? I read on a Marlins blog that he’s a non-tender candidate. MLB Trade Rumors pegs him at making $2.6M next year. Probably wouldn’t cost much to acquire in terms of prospects, and he might not even have a rotation spot with the Marlins.
He’s not great by any stretch of the imagination, but he’s a groundball pitcher who just leaves too much up in the zone. Maybe that’s just a mechanical tweak away from happening?
I don’t know, just throwing it out there. The guy was a top prospect at one time, a former first round pick who’s under control till 2015. Maybe he’s worth a shot as a back of the rotation pitcher?
Hey, stay on topic
We’re here to talk about ROSS OHLENDORF.
Kidding. Volstad is an interesting name—3.64 xFIP last year, suggesting he’s better than his results. Plus, our strong defense can help high-contact guys look good. Only problem is that if Globe is correct, $2.6M if half our damn spending budget.
Bard is touted as closer of the future
for 4 years. Now here we are, the future and because of financial stupidity, he is going to be made into a starter.
The guy’s arm is going to fall off.
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I hate free agency
This doesn't mean anything
But Papelbon went into spring training as a starter the year he took over as full time closer
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I remember that
he might have been a starter if we didn’t have Joel Pinero as our “closer of the future.”
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 12, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah.
Bobby V. stated on Saturday, Bard will be used as a starter at the beginning of Spring Training and when he gets to the 18-20 inning threshhold, they’ll all sit down and discuss how he’s done, what the bullpen looks like, and other factors to determine whether he’ll stay as a starter. My bet is whether or not they acquire a Bailey or Madson, Bard will be moved back to the bullpen because they’ll realize the bullpen is going to be really bad if he’s not the setup guy or closer, and despite what some people think, they will acquire a couple of starters between now and Spring Training.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 12, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
If you read the full piece.
They said he’s going to be a starter only at the beginning of ST. They are going to get him to the 18-20 inning threshold and see where he is and what the rest of the club look likes, and if they need him to go back into the bullpen, that’s what they’ll do.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 11, 2011 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
I'm ok Bard to starter.
but If so, I want to get decent no#4 starter like Kuroda,Ozwalt,Danks,Floyd.Marcum
and we need Closer.
I know There is LaxTax threshold.
But・・・・・・Please Mr Henry, I want to see SOX2012 postseason games for as long time as possible
It is interesting
With Braun’s positive test, maybe Milwaukee will be willing to close their window a little earlier and sell off valuable pieces like Marcum or Greinke, or even Wolf.
Not going to happen
If anything they’ll over pay for a 1B to stay and make everyone forget….
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I think Youkilis makes a lot of sense for them
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
We'll take Marcum, thanks.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 12, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Ooooo...I wish.
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I meant if they wouldn't over react
And trade off pitching. If anything they’d pay up for Fielder. I was being a little tongue-in-cheek
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I think
Ohlendorf would do just fine as a Red Sox. It’d almost be a swap between the Pirates and Red Sox for injury-ridden pitchers. Bedard for Ohlendorf.
That’s Ross’s only real issue. He’s obviously not a #2 guy, but he can be a #5 guy, even in the AL East, if he stays healthy.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 11, 2011 10:48 PM EST reply actions
Thank God we have a couple of new articles up.
250 comments on Ross Ohlendorf?? That’s freakin’ crazy.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I think only 3 were actually ABOUT Ohlendorf
Who is a very smart guy, but not a very good pitcher. Serviceable number 5 with a good defense behind him, though.
Ha ha ha...yeah
That’s why we needed a new main pager. Sox fans be chompin’ at the bit to chat about stuff!
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Not a bad idea.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
It would devolve into almost constant bickering
You have my support.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 12, 2011 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
You would say that I would say that.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 12, 2011 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
300th Ross Ohlendorf comment!!!
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I suspect the morning in the Ohlendorf household went like this.
Ross Ohlendorf googles his own name, comes across this thread
Ross: "Oh cool!! There is a story about me with over 300 comments! They like me…they really like me!Ross reads comments
Ross: "Oh. Well s#$t. "
Ross Crawls into corner and cries
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 13, 2011 8:17 AM EST reply actions
There's been what? Ten Ohlendorf-related comments? Less?
I suppose that’s better than us all bashing him.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
I did a quick count and got six
And one was against it and the others were “meh”.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 13, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
I should add one, which would be:
Who??
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
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