Solving The Closer Problem
Now that Jonathan Papelbon has left town to pursue his life long dream of pitching for the Philadelphia Phillies, the Red Sox find themselves in an unfamiliar position. Five Second Quick Quiz: Who was the closer before Jonathan Papelbon? ... four ... three ... two ... one ... Keith Foulke! I'll give you a bit longer for this next one. Who was the closer before Foulke? [plants coffee beens, harvests them, roasts them, grinds them, makes pot of coffee] Mmm... OK. Did you get Byung-Hyun Kim? The judges would have also accepted Scott Williamson.
The point is we Sox fans have been a bit spoiled over the last six seasons. That's nothing compared to some fanbases but it's a pretty significant stretch considering the well known volatility of relievers. Still, if Papelbon had to go, this off season was a good time for it. This is one of the best markets for relief pitching in a long while. Even with Papelbon, Joe Nathan, Heath Bell and Jonathan Broxton off the market there are still numerous options available.
Paps was a hell of a pitcher for the Red Sox over that time but it's time to find his replacement. Here are six relievers who could and might end up in the back of Boston's bullpen in 2012.
A quick note, when talking about late inning relievers I'm keeping it simple and looking at K rate, BB rate, homers, and GB percentage.
Ryan Madson
We've been hearing about Madson pretty much since we started hearing about the disconnect between Papelbon and the Red Sox. Not that Madson is much of a bargain. He reportedly had a 4 year $44 million deal with Papelbon's Phillies before something happened and the deal fell apart. That won't change what Madson is looking for, but it might alter what he can get. One thing we know is that kind of money is unlikely to fly with the Sox this off season. For one thing, you would think if they were prepared to that much to Madson they'd have first offered it to Papelbon. For another, the Red Sox don't have much in the way of payroll room so their ability to give big money to a reliever is contingent upon them shedding salary in other areas. For instance, if David Ortiz opts to leave then a guy like Madson becomes a bigger possibility.
As for Madson the pitcher, well, he's pretty much the biggest name left on the market now. He's does all the things you want to see out of a reliever, strikes batters out, doesn't walk many, and gets lots of grounders. He has had injury problems, but mostly flukey kind of things and nothing to his shoulder or elbow. He's a Boras guy though so he's going to get paid. If the Red Sox don't sign Ortiz then this might become an option. Otherwise, it's hard to see where the money comes from.
Andrew Bailey
Although he isn't a free agent, the Sox have been linked to Bailey this off season. With good reason too. Bailey is a high quality reliever, though not of Papelbon's class. His career K/9 of 9 is excellent and he is stingy with the walks as well. His problem is twofold. First, he has a significant injury history. Since throwing 83 innings in 2009, Bailey has thrown 49 and 41.2 the last two seasons, respectively. In contrast to Madson's flukey injuries, Bailey has had an elbow strain and was examined by Dr. James Andrews last season. That's scary stuff. So the Red Sox would have to be reasonably sure of his health. The second problem is, as I said above, he isn't a free agent. The Red Sox would have to trade for him. Considering his injury history (what the acquiring Red Sox will likely focus on) and his potential (what the A's will pay attention to when giving him up) it might be hard for the two sides to match up. Still, this is an intriguing option.
Daniel Bard
You know him, you love him, you do/don't want him as a starter. Depending on whom you listen to, the Red Sox may or may not be exploring the idea of moving Bard to the rotation. While it's possible Bard joins the rotation or remains in his current role and sets up for another reliever, the smart money might just be on Bard becoming the closer himself. He has experience in Boston and has thrived out of the bullpen if not in the actual closers role. While the results haven't been spectacular, Bard's stats show he is about the same pitcher he normally is in high leverage situations, the difference being a slight uptick in his walk rate. The Sox will have feelers out for other relievers, and they may prefer to avoid moving Bard out of the role which he's been so good at, but Bard represents at least a fall back plan in case the organization fails to acquire another reliever.
Francisco Cordero
The upside to Cordero is a pitcher who won't require a commitment on the level of a Madson or Papelbon while allowing Bard to either remain in the vital set up role or jump to the pen. But there is tons of downside here. Cordero's K rate dropped consistently from 12.22 in 2007 to 5.43 last season. That's more 'fell off a cliff' than dropped. That plus Cordero will be 37 next May and it might be best to steer clear of this landmine.
Brad Lidge
Speaking of landmines, Brad Lidge. Lidge will probably always be known for allowing the most gargantuan homer you've ever seen to Albert Pujols at the most inopportune time for his team. I'm hearing it's due to land any minute. The good thing about Lidge is he still strikes out tons of guys (10.7 K/9 last year and 11.95 on his career). Also, he is a year and a half younger than Cordero. The downside is pretty obvious if you've ever seen him pitch. He walks people. Lots and lots of people. Also, he gives up some bombs. And he's been hurt a lot. On days when his slider isn't working he's a pitching machine on Very Fast. You might swing and miss the first few pitches but once you time it, hitting it a ton isn't hard to do. In short, Lidge's stats aren't that of an awful pitcher. He has his flaws for certain, but he could be a useful addition to a bullpen. The problem comes when you entrust him with an important situation. He has four true outcomes: strikeout, walk, moonshot, or his elbow comes unplugged. Three of those four aren't good.
Francisco Rodriguez
Rodriguez does all the things you want in a closer. He throws hard, or at least he used to so he still has that reputation, he strikes batters out (11.18 K/9 career, 9.92 K/9 in 2011), doesn't walk tons of guys (pretty consistently around 3.5 BB/9) and has recently improved at generating the all important ground balls (51.8% last year). So what's the problem? In August of 2010 he assaulted the father of his girlfriend (and the mother of his twin fourth and fifth children). He later defied a court order to stay away from his girlfriend. He was placed on the Mets restricted list and blah blah blah. So Rodriguez at least by public reputation has some issues. If he is over those he probably represents the best pitcher per dollar on this list who isn't currently on the Red Sox roster.
*
So, OTM, who do you want to see on the Fenway mound when the 9th inning rolls around?
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Of the ones you listed:
K-Rod intrigues me most.
But names that intrigue me more are Frank Francisco and Matt Thornton.
+1
Frank Francisco should be a solid, inexpensive option, while Thornton has been extremely underrated due in part to his failing at closer last season. If Thornton could come in a package that includes a starter, it would be a beautiful thing.
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I'd give up half the farm
for Thornton and Floyd. One year plus an option on Floyd, two years plus an option on Thornton.
Heard the White Sox are starting sky high in their trade negotations, but maybe two of Lavarnway/Iglesias/Renaudo does it? That’s a biggish package, but none of them are top 50 prospects, and there’s a LOT of surplus value in Thornton and Floyd.
by abbreviatedman on Dec 6, 2011 8:37 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah
I don’t particularly like giving up Lavarnway or Ranaudo. Although those guys you mention could provide value and I’ve said a thousand times that we need at least one mid-rotation starting pitcher. Floyd scares me somewhat. Advanced stats suggest he could be better than his raw (era, etc) numbers, but as most White Sox fans will tell you he struggles more when there are men on base. Given what might actually turn out to be available he still could be one of the better options.
Lavarnway could be a good power bat, and a DH/C combo in the future. He may have some holes in his defense right now, but from ALL accounts he is a very intelligent kid and I feel would fill those holes enough so that his bat more tham makes up for it.
I would give up Iglesias pretty easily though, but I think that his value has dropped a bit. Ranaudo I’m mixed on. Some say he will be no better than a 2-3, which is still pretty dang good. I feel like I want to see him get a year against AA/AAA batters to see what his true potential will be.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 6, 2011 9:09 AM EST up reply actions
According to MLB Trade Rumors.com website
The Red Sox and The A’s are meeting today to discuss a potential Andrew Bailey trade.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 6, 2011 8:17 AM EST reply actions
Bailey's a good pitcher, but is also a TJ surgery just waiting to happen.
I’d pass only because of the health issue.
Hopefully that turns into a bigger deal
and the Sox can pluck one of the starters from the A’s too.
Maybe
It would definitely take a 3rd, maybe even 4th team to get the trade chips needed to get Bailey AND one of their starters here.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 6, 2011 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
I know.
I doubt it would extend that far. I was just being hopeful.
Looks like
The Sox offered Reddick and prospects for just Bailey. Probably not big-name prospects, but the A’s wanted Middlebrooks (not sure if they asked for both Reddick AND Middlebrooks).
I can only imagine what they will ask for in a Gio or Cahill trade, let alone one of those two AND Bailey.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 7, 2011 9:22 AM EST up reply actions
Personally
I am not getting hopes up for any starter from Oakland at this point. I just think the price will be too steep and Oakland just doesn’t have the financial flexibility to take on Youkilis.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 7, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
It's now being widely reported that
Middlebrooks was not asked for by the A’s.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 7, 2011 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
WE NEED A POLL
WE NEED A POLL
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
by Bloggy on Dec 6, 2011 8:31 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I think it's going to be Bard.
Unless Papi doesn’t re-sign as Marc pointed out, the Sox aren’t going to have money for the top FAs so no Madson, Bailey would cost the world to get. Street is a possibility, but I don’t how much the Rockies are asking for him. I think Bard only goes into the rotation if some how the Red Sox are able to acquire another ninth inning guy.
There's arbrtration raises that have be paid out.
The Sox aren’t going over the Luxury Tax threshhold for the third straight year, because the new CBA is extremely severe in the penalties for going over the threshold for three straight years. Even if all the Red Sox FAs left, the arbritration raises cancels out a lot of the money coming off the books, so the Red Sox don’t have a lot of money to spend.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 6, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
From Arb raises, they're probably looking at $148MM or so.
Ortiz would likely bring them right up to last year’s payroll.
by abbreviatedman on Dec 6, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently
the luxury tax threshold also includes people not on the 25-man roster and medical expenses. It also works off AAV, so with backloading of deals, the payroll for luxury tax purposes is significantly higher.
We don’t have $20MM to spare if we want to avoid crossing the threshold.
by abbreviatedman on Dec 6, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
The Sox need to be smart on who they acquire. They can’t just be throwing around money because people want them too.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 6, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
AAV?
is that a change so the Sox don’t do another A-Gon deal with a low 1st year to avoid tax? Since only two teams (ever?) pay the tax, i’m sure that was an easy vote among owners.
The luxury tax has been AAV for as long as I can remember.
This isn’t a change in the new CBA.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
The luxury tax has always worked off AAV.
I believe.
Also, the A-Gon deal didn’t have a low 1st year. 2011 was still covered under his previous extension.
by abbreviatedman on Dec 6, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
Bard to rotation?
there was a report today on Boston radio that Bard has asked to be a starter. While this leaves a bigger hole in the bullpen, it does “free up” some payroll to pursue more expensive closer options.
While on the subject of payroll, why are we assuming the Sox won’t be spending any money this off-season? Is this another “bridge” year? I guess Cherrington said that the Sox would likely be making “tune ups” instead of a big splash, whatever that means, but I still think they have to to out an get at least one solid closer or back of the bullpen guy and a decent starter(s); those are going to cost money.
BARF
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I'm still on the Weiland train to closer-town
if we start with Closer-by-committee we could let Bard, Jenks, and Weiland fight it out for the 9th inning during the season.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
you actually said that?
you want the dreaded, and failed “closer by committee”? You know which teams use that? Really none, but only teams without a closer. Are the $160 mil or something like that 2012 Red Sox really going to go into the regular season without a closer?
I've said dozens upon dozens of times
that I don’t buy into the closer mythos. If anything, I want Ace to be the closer, have him start pitching in the 7th and close out the game.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 6, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
OK, I'll play along.....
And what about the next game after Aceves has pitched 3 innings the last game?
Mythos? Sure, there is something, just a tiny something, to be said for the Billy Beane Moneyball idea of throwing an average, good control pitcher in the closer role and he will get saves simply due to the fact he is pitching the 9th inning. There is no myth to the fact that all winning teams have a designated closer, and it has been this way for at least 30 years. This is not to say any team has to have a $10mil.+ guy there, but championship teams have a solid, designated closer.
Championship teams have decent bullpens in general
not just the closer. And if you read my first post again, you’ll notice I only want c by c until Bard, Jenks, or Weiland wins out for the role. Sort of how Papelbon won the job from Foulke.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 6, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
I do think picking one is better, but it could probably be just about anyone who has a track record of being a good reliever in high leverage situations. What I think it a myth is that closers have to be more intense, fiery, ice-water-in-their-veins-y than other relievers. I think anyone you trust to hold a lead in the entire 7th, 8th or the fireman role like Bard has been in can actually close fine. I suspect if you experimented and took good relievers who hadn’t closed before, and made them close on good teams, they’d be proclaimed as an elite closer by the end of the year.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Poor Keith Foulke was never the same after 2004....
God Bless Keith Foulke for 2004 :)
"You're either carrying a spear, or running from it"
by BigSpearDiplomacy on Dec 6, 2011 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
Dude basically ended his career to give us a ring.
He is the fucking man.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Sounds good to me
I would be upset if we spent big money on a “proven closer” and missed out on a free agent we needed elsewhere because of it. Or worse, we send good prospects to the A’s for Andrew Bailey.
Always easy to NOT do something....
but the Sox will need a closer in 2012. I’m OK with giving Bard a shot, but they are still going to need bullpen help and I have no confidence in Weiland or Jenks, at least until I see Jenks in February. With the possiblity of Bard in the 8th or closer role, the Sox could wait out the market a bit and see what back-end bullpen arms are floating around.
Bard would presumably be the first choice
But I do believe anyone can close. There is an opportunity cost associated it with spending resources on someone simply because they have the mantle of proven closer – and it’s a cost I’d rather not pay.
Agreed
I also don’t like the idea of giving a closer a big FA deal like Papelbon got or K-Rod before him. But the Sox are going to sign a FA reliever or two is suspect.
For all the talk about how good the Sox player development is, its too bad they don’t have an arm ready to help in the pen next season. Please don’t say Weiland.
Why not Weiland?
His issues have always come the second or third time through the order, if he’s only pitching to three batters per game, there’s no harm.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Agreed with this.
He may not pan out to be awesome, but someone at one point posted his numbers and his first 25 pitches were usually very good, and then he fell apart after one time through the line-up. There might be reason to doubt him, but not to completely write him off as an option.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 6, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
Especially when you consider the list of guys
That the World Champion Cardinals went through this year. They HAD a very good closer in Franklin who sort of fell apart and then they went through Mitchell Boggs, Eduardo Sanchez and Fernando Salas before Motte had a good September and good postseason.
I think that when looking at the “closer” role there is a lot of underestimating about the number of pitchers who have the mental make-up to do the role.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 6, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
Its not a stretch that
Weiland, Bowden, Doubront, Tazawa can all dominate for an inning+, and have enough MLB experience to settle into the Pen quickly. Weiland and Bowden both have successful closing experience, so might do well at the back of the Pen setting up Bard, Jenks, whomever. And Morales, entering his prime, seems to be a wild card in this discussion.
by GerryT on Dec 6, 2011 2:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'd prefer to hold onto Morales
as a LOOGY, having a completely right-handed pen with a lefty closer does not excite me.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Going WAY outside the box here...
What about someone like Dice-K? Surely he could bring it for an inning at the end of the game, instead of teasing a good game for 3 or 4 innings then imploding on cue in the 5th.
The problem with that is
We don’t know when Dice will return from his TJ surgery. He is reportedly ahead of schedule in rehab, but the first reports were that he would likely miss all of the 2012 season, ahead of schedule may mean he’d be back in July. We can’t really plan around that.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I don't think there were ever necessarily reports that he'd miss the whole season
just speculation because of management and fan unhappiness with him. Now that management has changed, I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t make a decent appearance in 2012.
And probably overly expensive for 60-70 innings of work.
I mean, Joe Nathan got what…$7 million a year for 2 years? That would be for his 37-38 age years, after not pitching at all in 2010 and just under 50 innings in 2011. 50 innings that don’t really indicate that he has returned to his pre-injury form in a somewhat weak-hitting AL Central. What will K-Rod get with Boras as his agent? Plus, reports are he will accept arbitration with the Brewers, whether you believe it is just a negotiating ploy or not.
Plus, and this may be an unpopular opinion but I could see Rodriguez being a clubhouse issue. Maybe getting arrested for punching the father of his girlfriend (grandfather of his kids) in the clubhouse was an isolated thing. Maybe getting into a physical altercation with a low-key bullpen coach because he didn’t like how he was being used was an isolated incident. Maybe the multiple airing of his grievances in the media during a frickin’ playoff race was an isolated thing.
I would rather they spend the money and time (and not just free agency) fixing the issue they have. Which is starting pitching. Not overpaying for a primadonna who has proven on more than one occassion that he is a “my wallet first, team second” kind of guy.
So again, DO NOT WANT.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 7, 2011 9:11 AM EST up reply actions
Surprised nobody mentioned this, also surprised I hadn't thought of it until right now.
Convince Pedro not to retire, bring him in as the closer.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
I'd rather not have my last memory of him be getting booed by pink hats as "that guy who used to pitch for the Red Sox a long time ago"
"We’re the Sox. Not Apple Sox. We ain’t no Barbeque Sox. We’re the Red Sox.’’ - David Ortiz
If I saw anyone booing Pedro at Fenway
I would be banned from Fenway and probably charged with aggravated battery.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Just use Bard as closer
Bring in John Danks or Gavin Floyd through a trade, re-sign Papi. We do that— we’re the best team in baseball.
Check out my blog at http://conor-soxrox.blogspot.com
Why do you root for the Red Sox if you think they Suck so much?
by aubatron2011 on Dec 6, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sean isn't blind to the inadequacies of the current Red Sox.
Putting on rose-colored glasses and putting your fingers in your ears screaming “la la la” whenever somebody says something bad about the team doesn’t make you a better fan than him.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Every team has inadequacies. There's no perfect team.
Everybody was picking the Phillies to win the WS and they didn’t even make it out of the first round. The Red Sox are a good team, there’s no way they wouldn’t have won 90 games if they weren’t.
They were a good team
but they were also a very injury prone team. The best player missed all of 2010, Youk was hurt, again, we still don’t know what’s going on with Adrian’s shoulder. We need depth at basically every position, especially pitcher.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
I know that.
But they still won 90 games despite having the worst collapse in regular season history. This team has a lot of talent, both in pitching and everyday players, yet you wouldn’t know that from Sean’s post. Every post is almost always negative. Athletes have huge egos, and they care about winning/losing more than any fan could ever care about that. I bet you every single Red Sox player is busting his ass this off-season, from Pedroia to the last guy are the roster, just so they can get off to a fast start next year.
It's a team with inadequacies sure
But no team is perfect. You +1’ed a post saying we were going to be 4th place with a .500 record or worse, for real? This team will contend just fine next year, this year it wasn’t a lack of talent on the team, it was a lack of direction that is most to blame for what happened. The vast majority of the team that for a very solid part of the season was among the very best in baseball is returning and with new direction, and a very large and frankly embarrassing chip on their shoulders.
If Ortiz does indeed return we will put the league’s number one offense (by OPS, wRC+, and wOBA) back on the field. Even if Ellsbury isn’t for real, I don’t think it’s difficult to expect a little more out of Crawford than what he did this year and Lavarnway instead of Tek isn’t hard to factor as an offensive upgrade.
The bullpen, topped by Bard, with Aceves, Morales, Weiland, Albers and Wheeler is plenty fine and with depth when you factor in potential roles for Doubront, Tazawa, and Miller.
The only real noticeable inadequacy of the team is starting pitching of course with Lester, Beckett and Buchholz factored in for now. Hard to expect anything bad from Lester and if you really believe that Beckett is going to be worse solely because the year will be cleanly divisible by 2, get out, just leave now, it’s absolutely ridiculous, it’s just statistic noise. I’m sure he’ll be fine, maybe not as good, but fine. The way Buchholz pushed to try and come back at the end of the year makes me think he’ll be fine and ready to go.
As for the two we need to replace, one was Dice who was out for most of the year anyway and the other was Lackey who statistically was the worst Red Sox starter ever, I suspect Miller could put up better numbers over a whole season. But largely, it doesn’t matter who pitches, the offense is good enough to carry them, Lackey was .500 last year, 12-12! If we sign Bedard and then 3 $1M pitchers like Garcia or Colon for the Yankees last year, we’ll have adequate pitching.
I for one can’t so quickly discount this team as .500 at best.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
by Rogue Nine on Dec 6, 2011 9:09 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
concur
the offense is a given to still be one of the top offenses in baseball. Sure some guys like Ells should regress. But guys like Crawford should also regress – back upwards.
As for our starting pitching, the top 3 of Beckett, Lester & Buchholz - even if Beckett regresses, that should be more than countered by a (hopefully) full season of Buchholz. That sounds like +2 wins over last year
So then you look at the bottom of the rotation. Sure, it looks uncertain right now. But the absolute worst case is that we bring Wake back to pitch exactly like he has the last 4 years and otherwise shuffle a mix of scrubs to fill the 5th spot. So the absolute worst case for the 4-5 spot is .. well, last year. Statistically, it just doesn’t seem possible that we’ll field the historically worst starter ever again.
More likely, for the 4-5 spots we’ll field some journeyman replacement that we find for one spot and/or resign Eric Bedard. Heck, converting Aceves or Bard to starters to fill that 5th spot looks like an upgrade in quality over what we fielded last year. Any of those solutions sounds like 1 or 2 wins better than last year.
So I just don’t see how the starting could really end up as bad as last year, barring injuries.
The open question then becomes: How to rebuild the pen from absolute scratch. But that’s not really that unusual a project for many teams each year. Rebuilding a pen from scratch is not easy – it can be a crap shoot. But its not impossible and is in many ways, if you had to pick which of the 3 areas you had to rebuild, it would be the pen. It is much harder to rebuild the starting rotation or the batting order. The bullpen’s amorphous nature lends it the one area of the team that is most amenable to call-ups and dfa’s. So if nothing else you can just buy a ton of cheap arms and stock some in the minors and see who ends up looking good. I’m pretty sure they teach this process in MLB GM 101.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Disagree in large part
Yes, the offense will be fine, that has not been a problem since 2004 at least. But offense will let you down every time, especially in the post-season. As presently constituted the Sox are weak in the bullpen and only good-fair (by playoff contender status) in the rotation.
The idea is to improve the team from year to year, not tread water and hope. I’m not sure how a team can lose the second best closer of the past 5 years and not regress. Sure, they can plug in Bard and/or another arm and be OK (OK?), but this is the AL East and 1,2 or 3 games decides post-season or not.
The Sox have to find a way to get Beckett, Lester and Bucholz to pitch into the 6/7th innings on a more consistent basis. This was a big problem down the stretch in 2011, and the 2012 bullpen does not project to be improved.
Also, the Sox need to do thier homework and get lucky on one or more cheap, veteran starter like Bedard.
I never like to buy into “offense will carry them”, because it rarely works and even if it can propel a team to playoff contention, like the Yankees, thin pitching will be exposed in the postseason every time.
Bullpens year to year, are extremely volatile.
Perfect example is the Rays last year, nobody at the beginning of the season thought they would be any good, and they were. We honestly don’t know how they will perform, they could be very good or they could be very bad.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 7, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
that's not really a great example, really
the were mediocre at best last year, and really only mediocre because the Rays needed to use their pen way less than any other team in baseball, and as such, got to have their most effective guys pitching most of the time they needed to go there.
The Rays last year might not have been a good example.
But bullpens are still volatile by nature.
They'll just get another closer...
I’m telling you guys, anyone who is a halfway decent reliever can be a good closer. Bard to the rotation is just dumb when he could be our closer, I bet if he was closer, they’d be calling him elite by the end of the year.
I think additions of Doubront and/or Tazawa and/or Weiland and/or Miller could really strengthen the pen, I’m not particularly worried about it at all. Turnover there is always huge.
The rotation does need a couple pieces, I buy into “offense will carry them” because by and large, offense DID carry them last year, like I said, Lackey was 12-12. With Dice gone, Lackey hugely ineffective, and Miller and Wake rotating in, we were still an effective team, that was offense. With a new training staff, and manager I have hope that maybe injury-geddon is behind us for now.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I don't disagree with you
but just want to state that, in my mind, Tazawa cannot be in the pen. He just has far too much potential as a starter and we’re going to almost certainly need to serious depth by the time the season is over. Honestly, I’m thinking we’re going to acquire a 4th starter by trade and the 5th spot will be a semblance of competition between Aceves/Miller/Tazawa that Tazawa should win.
What we need a closer? ;)
Regardless the Sox must strengthen the pen….If Bard gets the nod then I hope Bobby V does not overuse him like Tito was prone too. If the Sox get two mediocre to average back end starters and add a right handed bat – maybe they have enough like the Cards and Rangers to stay in the game with flexible closers and hit the other team harder for more runs…
"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis

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