What We Might Know About Daniel Bard As A Starter
Let's get this out of the way first, for the pessimists in the house: there is a reason the headline says "might know," and not "absolutely know." We can theorize about what Daniel Bard would do as a starting pitcher, based on his repertoire, past history of relief-to-starter conversions (and vice versa), and his performance in the majors, but we don't know for sure. What this is meant to do is provide some context for what we might be able to expect, should the Red Sox go ahead with a plan that continues to be cited as a possibility.
That paragraph isn't meant to totally dismiss those who aren't optimistic about Bard as a starter, either. There are reasons to like and dislike this idea, and the plan is to explore those.
Daniel Bard, Minor League Starter: Bard was drafted as a starter back in 2006 as the #28 pick in the draft. He made his professional debut the next season, as a starting pitcher, in a year that he and anyone who watched it would like to forget. Bard made 22 starts between Single-A Greenville and High-A Lancaster, posting a combined ERA of 7.08, with 47 strikeouts against 78 walks in just 75 innings pitched.
Granted, Lancaster, a high-offense park, can shoulder some of the blame, but this was mostly on Bard. His mechanics were completely different then, and obviously not working for him against professional hitters. These mechanics were not his own doing, either, As Brian MacPherson mentioned in November: the Red Sox toyed with his mechanics after drafting him.
Boston switched Bard to relief following his disaster debut, and he switched back to his old mechanics during his time in the Hawaiian Winter League, and he was no longer throwing 90-93 with poor location. Instead, he was destroying the opposition, and spent just one more full year in the minors before coming to the majors, thanks to a 1.51 ERA, 77-2/3 innings, 12.4 K/9, and 3.4 K/BB. He has been Boston's second-best reliever since, even pitching as the better of the Jonathan Papelbon/Bard duo at times in his two-and-a-half years with the Red Sox.
There is no guarantee that Bard also would have succeeded as a starter with his old mechanics, but at the same time, we don't know that he would have failed, either. His stuff worked completely differently, and he rediscovered the strike zone as well as his velocity once he went back to familiar mechanical territory. Some of the bump in velocity had to do with the one-inning stints, but command and control are not affected the same way.
The Rule of 17: Tom Tango knows his statistical analysis, and one of the things that has been discovered in his many endeavors is learning what happens when a starter becomes a reliever, or a reliever becomes a starter. "The Rule of 17" is the result of this research, named because of how oddly often that number shows up in this matter.
The strikeout-per-plate appearance (K/PA) of a pitcher goes up 17 percent as a reliever, after starting. Batting average on balls in play tends to drop an average of 17 points out of the bullpen. Home runs (relative to contact) drop 17 percent out of the bullpen as well. Walk rate, though? That remains flat, as control and command might improve somewhat thanks to shedding a fringe pitch, but not to a degree where the rate of free passes allowed is going to drop significantly.
Looking at Bard's Red Sox career as a reliever through the lens of 17 yields promising results: his strikeout rate would fall from 26.7 to 22.2 percent, his home run rate would rise from 3.2 percent of balls in play to 3.7 percent, and his BABIP would sit at roughly .263 rather than .246. The league average strikeout rate by percentage was 18.6 in 2011; home runs as a percentage of balls in play, 3.4 percent; BABIP, .291. He might give up an extra home run or two than average, but other than that, those numbers come out looking like he would make a successful starter.
But Is He Even Better In The Pen: Nate Silver researched the idea of whether an individual pitcher is more valuable out of the bullpen or the rotation years ago, for a case you are all familiar with. Jonathan Papelbon was a starter in the minors who became the Red Sox' shutdown closer, and for a time, there were questions about which direction his career would head. (This was before it was widely-known that Papelbon's shoulder required a regimented throwing program that has a lot to do with his remaining in baseball to begin with.)
Silver basically wanted to find just how good Papelbon would have to be as a reliever to justify keeping him out of the rotation:
Throw all of these assumptions into a blender, and we find that a 2.00 ERA closer is roughly as valuable as a 3.69 ERA, 200-inning starting pitcher.
Papelbon, at his best, was a closer capable of legitimate 2.00 ERA or better performances. If his shoulder was capable of handling a starter's workload, there was an argument to be made to keep him in the bullpen anyway. But what about someone like Bard, who is a great reliever in his own right, but not necessarily a historically-good one, like Papelbon was in Boston?
Bard's career ERA is 2.88, after 197 appearances and 192 games in Boston. That's impressive, but it's not as good as Papelbon, who was at 2.33, and pitched during a few seasons with higher offensive levels, too. ERA not your metric of choice? Papelbon's FIP in Boston was 2.60, Bard's, 3.22. There is a clear level of difference between the two, even if both are pitchers that every team in baseball would like to have -- as Silver wrote back in 2006, Papelbon isn't your typical relief pitcher, as he's in the "95th percentile" for relievers, historically. Time has proven this sentiment to be correct.
This means Bard isn't at the level where he is so ridiculously good out of the bullpen that the idea of moving him becomes silly out of hand. Rather, he's at the level where, because he is so good as a reliever, it's worth exploring whether he can be a useful starting pitcher, as well.
Silver found that a pitcher's ERA typically improved by 25 percent after leaving the rotation for the pen. The opposite works as well, so Bard's 2.88 ERA as a reliever translates to a 3.60 ERA as a starter. That isn't every reliever/starter conversion, of course -- you get relievers who just don't work because they aren't good pitchers in any role, or ones who transcend the expected results, like Papelbon.
It's Not All About Numbers, Though: The Rule of 17 and Silver's excellent research are guides that help paint a picture of what a pitcher would look like in one role or another, but there is more to baseball than numbers. Does Bard have the stuff and the repertoire to succeed in a role where he will be expected to go through a lineup multiple times?
Bard has averaged 97.4 miles per hour on his fastball in the majors, and while that is likely to dip by 1-2 mph as a starter, that is still an intimidating heater. It's not like he would just touch 95 as a starter -- he would sit there. His slider is his big out pitch, the one he has thrown 20 percent of the time in his career (closer to a quarter of the time in the recent past), and the one that misses by far the most bats. He has a change-up, and it has been effective for him (swing-and-misses on 16 percent of change-ups; league average is 12 percent), but given he has used it less than five percent of the time, one wonders if its success is part, in due, to its lack of use. The surprise factor of the pitch has worked in Bard's favor, but should be start, he would likely need to utilize it more often. Whether that would be successful or not is something we will have to see to know for sure.
There are relievers who have converted to starting who have succeeded with less stuff than Bard has, of course. Alexi Ogando is a two-pitch pitcher, and he had a fine first year out of the rotation with Texas in 2011. Justin Masterson basically has one pitch -- his fastball -- but it is so heavy that hits are hard to come by, and when struck, it often ends up on the ground. That doesn't necessarily mean Bard would work as a two-pitch starter, either. It's much more likely he will need that effective off-speed pitch for when he is facing a lineup the third time through.
Overall, though, those two are probably an apt point of comparison for expectations of what Bard could do as a starter. Neither are total game-changers, but they have more value as average-to-above starters than they would as relievers, even if they would be high-quality bullpen arms. The more innings a good pitcher can throw, the more valuable he becomes -- not everyone needs to be Jon Lester to be a successful starter.
One other thing Bard might have in common with Ogando, though, is his limits for innings. In the first year of this experiment, at least, it's unlikely Bard would be able to throw anywhere near 200 innings. C.J. Wilson, who has done that in his two years as a starter, is more exception than rule in this regard. Of course, you can't work up his innings until you start using him out of the rotation, either, so putting it off another year doesn't make a conversion any simpler in the future.
*****
With the expensive and lacking starter's market, if Bard can be anywhere near as good as his numbers in relief, translated through Tango's and Silver's work, make him look like he can be, then the Red Sox should absolutely explore the idea of Daniel Bard: Starting Pitcher. It's not necessarily a guarantee to succeed, by any means -- maybe his change-up doesn't work well enough as a starter, or he just doesn't have the durability to make it work -- but should Bard as a starter work, giving the Red Sox the fourth starter they have been trying to acquire through various means for years, then it would be a far better use of his arm than another 65 frames out of the bullpen. The reward is worth the risk; the worst thing that happens is we answer a question about Bard, and what role he is actually a better fit in.
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Eh.
Bard may not be a complete disaster in the rotation, but just saying “Ogando and Masterson are two pitch pitchers and they do ok” certainly doesn’t mean Bard will do as well as they’ve done. Especially Masterson, who is a sinkerballer, is not really an apt comparison.
Color me skeptical about this “rule of 17”, as well. If it was truly a universally applicable rule, we’d see far more relievers being converted to starters. Instead, teams must evaluate if a reliever’s arm action translates to starting, if he can hold up to the extra innings, and a host of other factors that we’re not privy to in relation to Bard.
If the team thinks he can do it, go for it; but I don’t believe we as fans have the necessary info to make anywhere near an informed conclusion about Bard being successful. I think we do have the tools to suggest he won’t be, as a default position (those tools being: poor starting numbers; lack of a quality third pitch; tired as season went on; and probably others).
Apt comparisons in terms of the kind of production you would be expecting
Not as a perfect profile for stuff. Basically, one of them, not a C.J. Wilson, whose name always comes up when relievers convert to starting these days.
As for the Rule of 17, you’re correct, in that it’s not universal — it’s an average, and there are pitchers above and below those figures. But average is a reasonable expectation.
I’m more skeptical about his change-up and durability than I am about his stuff, velocity, etc. translating to the role of starter. But it’s something the team won’t really know unless they give it a shot.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 5, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
I have no problem with it if they think it can work
But again, knowing only what we know, I’ve seen no indication that it CAN work. If the front office, given its superior knowledge of baseball matters, thinks it could work, I’d support it, but so far it seems to be just mostly groundless fan speculation.
I ignored it when I thought the same
But it continues to be mentioned by Boston writers, like Alex Speier, Peter Gammons, and Brian MacPherson, which has me wondering if Boston really is thinking about it.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 5, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sure it's been internally discussed.
Interest may be peaked around baseball given Texas’s success with relievers turned starters. I’m skeptical of the general success rate of such an experiment, but perhaps that’ll be the next revolution in baseball.
They Wont Rest Until Order Is Restored
bring on another 86 years of suckage.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 6, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
"I've seen no indication that it can work"
I just don’t agree with that. Excellent pitching out of a major league bullpen is a good indication that it can work. The fact that he was switched to reliever while in the minors doesn’t mean he stopped developing and is the same pitcher he was then. I’m kind of excited about seeing him start, although we might just want him in the pen more.
Re: What we know
What is it that we know today indicates that it CAN’T work. Admittedly, I’m optimistic that it can, but that’s mostly due to what we do know. He was drafted as a starter, his stuff is consistent and electric, his body would seem to support a starter’s workload, and he has the makings of three pitches, even if the change is just show me pitch to get LHB’s out.
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by ProspectTube.com on Dec 15, 2011 8:31 AM EST up reply actions
Bard was a starter.
He stunk royally.
He was converted to a reliever. He has worked out wonderfully, September 2011 notwithstanding.
Quit @#$%ing with one of the few pitching things we have going right right now.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Correlation != causation
Especially when we know of another variable (Bard’s delivery tweaks) that correlates just as well.
(Also, I’m not sure how Marc writing an article analyzing the possible usefulness of Bard in the rotation possibly constitutes “@#$%ing with one of the few pitching things we have going right right now.” Did Marc get hired by the front office while we weren’t looking?)
Correlation? Causation? Huh?
He was a very poor starting pitcher. It will be 5 years since he was last a starting pitcher. These are facts. There’s nothing being correlated there.
There is nothing to suggest that he can or should convert to a starting pitcher. There is a minimal chance that a changed arm-slot or something makes him a different pitcher that could start games and be not embarrassing. But certainly not enough to justify that risk.
I’m not sure how Marc writing an article analyzing the possible usefulness of Bard in the rotation possibly constitutes "@#$%ing with one of the few pitching things we have going right right now." Did Marc get hired by the front office while we weren’t looking?
This is just silly. I thought it was quite clear that I was speaking of “Red Sox Nation” in general pushing the Bard-to-rotation concept.
He has not started. He has not started because he cannot start.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
“Bard was a starter.
He stunk royally.
He was converted to a reliever. He has worked out wonderfully, September 2011 notwithstanding."
What point were you trying to make there, if not that one thing (his use as starter vs reliever) caused another (his past performance at each position)?
“This is just silly. I thought it was quite clear that I was speaking of "Red Sox Nation" in general pushing the Bard-to-rotation concept.”
Fair enough. I interpreted what you wrote as being directed as Marc.
“He has not started. He has not started because he cannot start.”
You have not proved this in any meaningful way.
My point is not one of correlation/causation
but rather results from the different scenarios. In summation: starting bad, relieving good.
blockquote>"He has not started. He has not started because he cannot start."
You have not proved this in any meaningful way.
The Red Sox are known as a very forward-thinking organization…or certainly were in the mid-2000s. They would know that a pitcher’s potential value as a starter is much greater than his potential value as a reliever. Yet since 2007, he has not started one single baseball game. If there was an inkling of a chance that he could be converted to a starting role, surely to God it would have happened before now.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Blargh
Totally effed that there blockquote. >:(
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Let me try to rephrase that
I’m clearly not communicating my point well.
When you say “result from the different scenarios,” that’s a statement of causation. “X caused Y” and “Y is the result of X” are identical statements. In this situation, the data we have are as follows:
Point 1. Daniel Bard was a starter in 2007, and was converted to relief afterward.
Point 2. Daniel Bard was terrible in 2007, and has been great since 2007.
There is a very clear correlation between these two points. But it does not necessarily follow that Point 2 is the result of Point 1. Maybe Bard figured something out in late 2007. Maybe Bard tripped on a glove, broke his arm, and suddenly could throw 10 mph harder. Maybe Bard was visited in dreams by the Ghost of World Series To Come, who gave him the gift of a ludicrous slider. Or, if we restrain ourselves to known facts:
Point 3. Daniel Bard had a certain delivery in college that he had tweaked upon starting his pro career with the Sox. He returned to his original delivery after the 2007 season.
There is as much correlation between Point 3 and Point 2 as there is between Point 1 and Point 2. It still doesn’t mean that either Point 3 OR Point 1 is the cause of Point 2. And the mere fact that Point 3 exists, in a world where pitching delivery changes are a known reason for change in pitcher performance, weakens the hypothesis that Point 2 was the result of Point 1.
That’s what I mean when I say you have not proved your thesis in any meaningful way. You assert that he “cannot start,” because his performance in 2007 was woeful and that corresponds with the period during which he started. But that, in and of itself, does not demonstrate that he cannot start, ever – only that, when he started in 2007, he was terrible.
And so the fact that the Sox have not tried to turn Bard into an even more valuable asset is irrelevant?
So at what point do actual results become irrelevant? Because that’s what I’m reading here. The fact that all of the time he spent starting games produced very poor results and all of the time spent in relief appearances produced very good results shows nothing?
Bard returned to his original delivery after the 2007 season. And yet no one felt the need to continue to groom him as a starter. How can there not be a reason for that?
This is all wishful thinking. CJ Wilson went reliever to starter….Bard can, too. It’s a very, very, very bad idea. All the actual evidence points to it.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I see the back and forth here, and have to agree with Tarrsk.
The miss here is that “all the time he spent starting games produced very poor results” was during the same “all the time he spent starting games was with a tweaked delivery that didn’t seem to work for him” that Tarrsk is pointing out.
As for the changed delivery not translating into returning him to a starters role, I think the Sox have used several minor leaguers the way they used Bard: Masterson, Arroyo, Doubront and Weiland all come to mind… guys that were intended to be starters, but were used as RPs for a period of time, with the intention to return them to a SP role later.
Obviously, that hasn’t happened with Bard over the last 5 years, but with an obvious need in the rotation for 2012, is it impossible for him to convert to a starter? If we stretch him out for a starter’s role in 2012, and he has a miserable Spring Training and clearly sucks as a starter, will that prevent us from using him as a closer or set up guy in 2012?
I, personally, want to see Bard installed as our closer with Weiland setting up for him, much like Bard did for Paps the last few seasons… but I don’t see any reason we couldn’t give him a shot to stretch out, especially if it’s something he wants to do.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
None of the people you listed, though
Doubront, Masterson, Weiland, Arroyo, were used the way Bard was. All spent the majority of their minor league time as STARTERS. Once in the majors, sure, perhaps they were used as relievers and then converted, but Bard wasn’t…because he just wasn’t good at it.
You can’t just simply gloss over this point…because it’s the most important one.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
On the other hand
Ogando has been a reliever exclusively since he was first converted to a pitcher in 2005. He was pretty damn good as a starter this year until he tired out later in the season – something that I suspect would happen to Bard as well, at least in his first season as a starter. But nobody’s saying otherwise. Marc’s article specifically notes that we’re almost certainly not going to get anywhere near 200 innings out of Bard his first season as a starter.
Which, again, is different from Bard
in that he came up a pitcher, was terrible in the starter role and segued to relief. Ogando was converted to a pitcher, seen to have talent, and then further converted to a starter.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Well, yes. All of these scenarios are different.
I don’t think anyone’s trying to claim that there’s a perfect comp for Bard’s situation out there. I’m certainly not trying to do that, and I think neither are you.
The point is that there is certainly precedent for relief pitchers similar to Bard (small repertoire, hard-throwing, stuff-driven guys) being given a chance to start and succeeding. Just as there is also precedent for relievers converting to the rotation and completely imploding.
And again, I think there are significant caveats in the “Bard was terrible as a starter and therefore will always be terrible starter” argument that you still have not addressed. Can you explain why you’re so sure that Bard’s ’07 performance was because he was a starter, and not because of a wonky delivery that saw him sitting in the low 90s with poor control?
I'm not 100% sure of that, no.
But the fact that his delivery was “fixed”, and yet still not given a shot to thrive as a starter, when that’s where he would have the most value, especially given that he was a strong starter in college, sets off a LOT of alarm bells.
Enough alarm bells to tell me that this experiment is not an experiment worth taking. We have “lost” our strongest bullpen piece. Let’s not lose a second one on a hunch and poor comparisons.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
That's a reasonable point
Unfortunately, we don’t have access to the Sox pitching coaches and their assessments. But I’d agree that it’s possible they saw something that made them shy away from returning Bard to the rotation.
Although IIRC, wasn’t the stated reason for Bard sticking in the bullpen at the time that it was viewed as a much quicker path to the majors for him? That could be a bullshit line for the press, of course, but it sort of makes sense to me: his repertoire, as many of us in this thread have noted, lends itself more naturally to a relief ace role than a starter that has to go through a lineup multiple times.
I think of Papelbon
He had an elite closer season…yet the FO was considering flipping him to a starter’s role. If they thought Bard could do it, they would have done it with him in the minors, I have to think. “A quicker path to the majors” benefits no one but Bard. Figure out what the guy’s good at in the minors. Bard is good at relief pitching.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Agreed
I should probably mention at this point that I’m not even necessarily in favor of putting Bard in the rotation – I suspect that his limited repertoire won’t play well over outings longer than two innings. But that’s a separate issue entirely than what we’ve been discussing here, which is the usefulness of his record as a minor league starter in 2007 in projecting his performance as a major league starter in 2012.
Bloggy, I think we’re still talking past each other to some extent. You say:
“The fact that all of the time he spent starting games produced very poor results and all of the time spent in relief appearances produced very good results shows nothing?”
And my position is: of course it tells us something. It tells us that, in 2007, when Bard started a number of games after having his delivery tweaked significantly, he was horrible. Shortly afterward, he was converted to relief and concurrently returned to his old delivery, which was what got him drafted in the first round to begin with. All I’m saying is that there are three different variables at play (starter/reliever, delivery, pitching performance), and that any combination of the first two could be responsible for the last one. To say that it’s ALL because Bard was a starter or a reliever is omitting an important set of data.
An important additional, but related, point to be considered here:
Daniel Bard was a first round draft pick. He was a first round draft pick because he was an excellent college pitcher. When he pitched in college, he used the same delivery he has used since being converted to relief by the Red Sox.
And he was a starter in college. A good one.
Tarrsk, I see what you're saying, I really do
but I just don’t think that it is enough to take this sizable risk for dubious potential return. He was a good starter in college…but so were a lot of other pitchers who are not good starters now.
We have an excellent asset in our bullpen. I see no reason to @#$% with it on a big, fat “What If”?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
And I agree with you on that
It’s a risky move, for sure. But given the flush reliever market, the extremely un-flush starting pitcher market, and the potential (even if it’s small) of Bard turning out to be a solid, above-average starter, I think it makes sense for the Sox to at least consider the option. It gives them some much needed flexibility in designing the pitching roster for next year.
And I agree with that too...
Like I said, rather have Bard take over the closer role, and we fined a new 8th inning guy (maybe Weiland).
However, I guess I’m wondering what happens if we stretch him out, give him a shot in Spring Training, and he confirms that he sucks as a starter… is it impossible to convert him back to relief at that point? Or will stretching him out help with his ability to pitch 70 games through September?
I honestly don’t know… just asking the question.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
"fined" should be "find"
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Aceves was stretched out as a starter last year
I think it’s tougher for pitchers who haven’t been in that role before, like Michael Bowden. But Bard would just be going back to what he’s used to.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 6, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
And that...
… is an appeal to authority. As in, “The Yankees gave Rafael Soriano $35MM with two opt-outs, and they’re a winning organization, so they must be right.”
The only “actual evidence” is that he was very bad during the very short period in which he was a) a starter and b) using new mechanics imposed on him by the FO. There is zero evidence that a) was why he was bad, nor any evidence that b) was the actual cause. Until you have some “actual evidence,” it’s probably worth a try to see if the correlation of a) was not causation, and therefore you can get a lot more value out of him (and in an area of more need).
The “actual results become irrelevant” when they’re a tiny sample in the low minors 5 years ago. The scouting reports on his changed mechanics and improved stuff (not to mention much larger sample of hard data) since then is far more relevant.
by abbreviatedman on Dec 5, 2011 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
The fact is
he stunk in low-minors. To think that he could convert now that he hasn’t started a baseball game in:
- high A
- AA
- AAA
- MLB
is blind. Now, all of a sudden, he’s gonna be a starting pitcher in the AL East?I really don’t think it is that easy to just flip a guy like that. It is wishful thinking and wasting an actual asset on a bad experiment.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Or maybe Bard sucks as a starter
because he has 2 pitches and wears down.
I truly am astonished that the onus is being placed on those who want nothing to do with starting a pitcher whose only exposure was historically awful, in low single A. It seems like “he throws hard, and our rotation sucks” is the crux of the opposing argument. Marc’s post seems to deal more with a greater argument about the RP→SP transition, one that anecdotaly is usually a disaster.
In summary, hell no. Awful idea.
Thank you.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Nobody's putting the onus on one side or the other
People who think Bard should not be converted to a starter are asking for logical arguments from those who think it might be worth trying, and vice versa. It’s what we call a “discussion” – one that, IMO, has been pretty thoughtful and civil so far.
well to be fair, he has 3 good pitches
but what makes the idea ridiculous, in my mind, is that his 3rd pitch (changeup) is only good because everyone is expecting the fastball, which is so awesome. Same to a lesser degree with the slider. Take the fastball down a couple of notches and it’s not a bad pitch, but both the other pitches are worse along with it. Sounds like a recipe for failure to me.
NO
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While I respect a good "no"
The why behind it is the key.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 5, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Why fix what ain't broken?
Bard is a great relief pitcher. What he does in his role is impossible to replace. You can find a mediocre starting pitcher anywhere, why sacrifice an eight inning man for it?
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by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
"You can find a mediocre starting pitcher anywhere"
I see the complete black out of September 2011 is well underway.
everyone laughed when I said
“this team cannot win the world series as currently constructed”
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Depends on when
By July, it was 100% clear that Lackey should not be starting for us anymore, period. Buchholz was gone, Zaka was gone, and even with Bedard we were one injury away from disaster. Obviously nobody anticipated the disaster we did get, but we needed another mediocre arm.
I was saying it at the deadline
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Yes, you were.
And I agreed. My wish, at the time, was that the Bedard trade (and Haren physical) hadn’t wiped out the Haren deal. I really think getting both of those guys would have given us the “one” SP we needed to get through September and into the playoffs.
Once there, either of them would have been solid behind Beckett/Lester and possibly Buchholz… but we’ll never know.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Should have been in on Fister
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
+1
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Yes, that's another one.
Though, that’s a bit of hindsight… not very many people wanted him before the deadline, but after what he did in Detroit, he clearly was worth a look.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Ben made an excellent case for him
and had me convinced.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I was happy getting Bedard over Fister
But I thought Fister was going to be crazy expensive, after the package Detroit sent over I was kicking myself.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 6, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
I wasn't laughing at you
but I definitely thought we’d make a run if Buch could come back in October.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 6, 2011 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
Well, first off
There are more quality relievers than quality starters available via free agency this year. Maybe you end up with a worse reliever than Bard, but if you end up with a better starter than [insert mediocrity here] by making the switch, how does that hurt the team?
Especially since the Red Sox don’t need one, but two starters.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 5, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
Aceves and Doubront would be better
Bard has no experience starting outside of Single A! And you want to sacrifice the eighth inning second and third one out and getting out of it? I certainly don’t.
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by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Of course Bard's current role is possible to replace
There are (or, at least, were) a number of relief pitchers on the free agent market this year who are strong candidates to have 2012 seasons as good as Bard is likely to have: Papelbon, Bell, Madson, etc. The main difference between having one of them in the bullpen vs Bard is cost. But the same holds true of Bard in the rotation vs. a starter we obtain via free agency or trade.
The math to consider here is not “Bard as relief ace vs Bard as potentially mediocre starter.” It is:
“Cost of Bard in bullpen + Cost of starting pitcher X” vs “Cost of Bard in rotation vs Cost of relief pitcher X”
Note that when I say “cost,” I don’t just mean money, but also the value of any prospects we might have to trade as well as the marginal value each player provides with their performance next year.
+1
George Lucas can go @#$% himself.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Furthermore, Justin Masterson...
…is not “an apt point of comparison for expectations of what Bard could do as a starter”. Justin Masterson came through the minors as a starting pitcher. He was used by the Red Sox as a reliever when he came up to the majors, but he was groomed as a starting pitcher. That made it a lot easier to for the Indians to convert him back to starting.
Daniel Bard has started a game since 2007. Five years ago. And his ERA was over ten.
Dropping Masterson in there as a point of comparison is misleading.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I agree
comparing apples and oranges.
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by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
Career path != value
Which was the point of comparison. Masterson isn’t a great pitcher, he’s a pretty good one.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 5, 2011 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
What does "!=" mean?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Dunno about !=
But broadly, Marc wasn’t suggesting that Bard and Masterson have had a particularly similar career path; rather, he was suggesting that Bard could have similar VALUE as Masterson (or Ogando).
That's what I thought, but wanted to double check before I continued. Thanks.
In that case, I still don’t see how this is in any way a valid comparison.
Sure, Bard could be more valuable if he was able to make that transition. Ryan Kalish would be more valuable if he could make that transition, as well.
But there is little to no reason to believe that he can make that transition. He hasn’t started a game in 5 years and wasn’t good when he did. That is that actual data. Everything else is all pops and whistles.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
My take-home from this discussion...
… is wondering whether Kalish can catch.
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 5, 2011 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
He couldn't even pitch a full season out of the pen!!!
Bard as a starter is a horrible idea. He has never been good at it before, and he would have to tone the gas down, which is his best pitch. This is not a matter of magic stats, it is a matter of Bard isn’t stretched out and ran out of gas at the end of last year… don’t ruin his career on him.
Also who is gonna replace him in the pen? Plus, if he does start, since he would have an innings limit, you’re gonna eat the bullpen up.
No, don’t mess with it, man.
Its a better idea IMO to get a cheep starter that is reliable for eating innings and hope it works, the old low risk high reward play and if nothing else get innings from it and try to win em late or save the pen.
I think, considering how he's been used in our pen...
… it’s not entirely fair to say he ran out of gas. In OTM, we were all screaming at Tito for continuing to run him out there every day after the 2010 season was over, and we paid for it when he “ran out of gas” (from overuse) at the end of 2011. I haven’t looked at the stats, but who were the Top 10 most used relievers over 2010 and 2011, and where is Bard on that list?
Now, I think we convert Bard to our closer (a need we now have), and move Weiland to the 8th inning shut down role (as is noted elsewhere, he’s capable of shutting down the top MLB hitters once through the line up), and we look at Aceves and a few reclamation projects to fill out the rotation.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Mea culpa...
Looking at the stats, Bard’s 70 appearances in 2011 was good for 32nd, and 73 appearances in 2010 was good for 18th.
Of course, I couldn’t find a way to look at the combination, but a quick glance at the list suggests only Bard, Carlos Marmol and Sean Marshall (how about them Cubs managing the bullpen) popped up on both lists. Certainly possible I overlooked some others…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Should be noted that Bard also has an extreme platoon split in his performance
Which again comes back to lacking a third pitch, or more specifically, a pitch to get opposite handed batters out.
Career vs LHB:
7.8 K/9, 3.90 BB/9, 12.3% HR/FB
Career vs RHB:
11.7 K/9, 3.04 BB/9, 6.8% HR/FB
Against LHB-stacked opposing lineups, seeing him multiple times in a game, with less velocity? I’m not optimistic.
Amusingly there’s another team with a young fireballing shutdown reliever who piles up K’s, which is desperate for starting pitching. Yet the Yankees would rather re-sign Freddy freaking Garcia than try using David Robertson as a starter.
"We’re the Sox. Not Apple Sox. We ain’t no Barbeque Sox. We’re the Red Sox.’’ - David Ortiz
I feel like I read analysis somewhere that this has to do with his use of the change up?
Like, it’s a devastating pitch against RHB, with a high miss % and is one of his top “out” pitches with a RHB, but not only does he throw it a low % of the time, he throws it almost exclusively to RHB.
So, the question raised was… how well would that pitch work against LHB and can we get him to use it against them more?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
"C.J. Wilson Has Six-Year Offer"
This headline makes me glad the Sox are not in the mix for a front-line starter
Well, then, he should take it!!
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
this team has no money
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Sure we do!!
It’s…um…just all earmarked for people that can’t play baseball. :(
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Also true. ;)
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Doesn't the slider miss bats
because it’s 7’ out of the zone?
HELL NO to Bard as starter. We already have an awful rotation, and I’d rather not add an historically bad milb starter.
agreed
I see Bard’s elbow exploding if they try this.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Also a concern.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I see Bard's elbow exploding regardless
unless they start limiting him to around 60 innings per season.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 6, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
There's actually a lot of evidence
that relieving is harder on the arm than starting.
by abbreviatedman on Dec 6, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
Just give it a chance.
Meh, at this point I’m pretty apathetic. I’m long since resigned to the mess that Bobby Valentine will likely cause as manager.
The Red Sox suck, and I am the dirt that was sucked in, I am a dirty.
I'm narcissistic, nihilistic, and arrogant. That's me in a nutshell.
well then that's terrible
and you probably shouldn’t share your opinion, if it’s going to be “everything already sucks, how much worse will it be?”
Valentine has yet to do anything but good things in his first year with a team. I’m of the mindset that a change in managerial style can be good for a team (or really any worker in general), and as long as he’s not there an incredibly long time, I’m OK with him.
Not a fan of this
I question his durability to go even 70 innings, 1 IP at a time, 180, 6 at a time? I don’t think he can do that.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
its not like any move has to be permanent
if bard moves to the rotation its not like hes banished to a world where he can never return as a reliever. im in favor of a team using their most talented arms as starters and trying to find cheap undervalued players in the bullpen (see: tampa). and marc claims that an era+ close to 1.15 is a reasonable expectation so why not give it a shot? if bard doesnt work as a starter or the late innings become a more pressing need than move him back the pen. why not give it a test run just to see what you have at least?
but he's banished to a world where we need to sign a closer
and where he’s basically useless for the year if he sucks as a starter.
At the very best, he probably pitches pretty well and gets shut down by mid august.
Do we have to sign another closer?
Wasn’t part of the deal with Bobby Jenks that he got the first shot at being the closer if Paps left? Wouldn’t we give him a crack in Spring Training?
And, yes… this makes me think for just a few minutes that we should have paid Paps… then I remember that contract again…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
um yes that was theoretically part of the deal
so tell me, after 2011, how comfortable do you feel with having Jenks be the anchor of our bullpen?
Oh, not at all.
It makes me sick that this is theoretically part of why there seems to be actual evidence that we’re looking at Bard as a starter in 2012… that feels like maybe they really think Jenks is the closer in 2012? Or we’re going to trade for Andrew Bailey? Or?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
if done right
a quality closer should be easier to find than a quality starter. jj putz signed for 2 years 10 mil. kyle farnsworth one year 3.25. a lot of other teams developed no-names internally. the closer role is such an over-valued position. i think the sox can throw a lot of stuff on the wall and see what sticks there. when edwin jackson is commanding huge dollars doesnt it make more sense to see if bard can be a starter and find a cheap alternative for a closer?
I'd rather know we have a pretty good closer
and throw a few guys at a wall to be a fifth starter than throw a bunch of guys against a wall hoping they’ll be a good closer in addition to throwing a bunch of guys against a wall (including our potential closer), hoping that they’ll be a decent starter.
Sure, the closer position is over-valued, but there just isn’t much out there to suggest that Bard would actually be good as a starter.
However... the evidence is starting to point to the idea that Bard isn't the Sox closer in 2012, isn't it?
So now you’re talking about either keeping Bard in his high leverage 8th inning role, or using him as a starter… does that change this discussion at all?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
sure, if we can get our pen to the point where it is solid without Bard,
then yeah, let him start for a couple weeks and when he sucks, move him back into the pen. Of course, at that point, we’ll likely have spent all our money for starting pitching on improving the pen and we’ll be starting Lester/Beckett/Buchholz/Aceves/Miller every week, and Sean O’s prophesy of 78 wins or whatever will come to fruition.
It's possible that we know...
… that this is a terrible idea. I contend that we know this.
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 6, 2011 1:07 AM EST reply actions
I think he'd be fine.
Yes he hasn’t started in a long time, but he’s nonetheless continued developing as a pitcher, and he doesn’t seem to have a psychological problem with the idea of being a starter. In fact, logically you’d think he’d be a pretty awesome starter, since he’s such an awesome reliever.
I don’t think they should do it though. There’s a good bit of starting pitching available, and they DO need a bullpen
In any event I don't understand why people are wringing their hands
If he is indeed transitioned to a starter he will have plenty of chances throughout spring training to start. If he runs with it, then you chortle at your good luck and roll on. If he sucks, he goes back to the bullpen. Just because I also happen to be pessimistic on his chances of success as a starter, doesn’t mean I don’t also readily admit that the potential upside of it is worth exploring.
"We’re the Sox. Not Apple Sox. We ain’t no Barbeque Sox. We’re the Red Sox.’’ - David Ortiz
by L33to II on Dec 6, 2011 10:22 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
It really isn't that easy.
What they do with Bard has a huge impact on the offseason plan. Sort of like Papi, if he comes back, they don’t bother with RF, if he doesn’t they probably push for Beltran. If Bard moves into the rotation, they need another high quality reliever. If he doesn’t, they need to sign a starting pitcher. If we wait until ST and he flops as a starter then what? We’ve spent our free money on a new closer already and we’ll be stuck with another Andrew Miller in the rotation because the selection will be so low.
That’s why it isn’t a straight forward decision, we can lose much more if he doesn’t pan out in that role, if that’s the role we plan on him being in.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
However, it does appear from the Sox kicking the tires on closers...
… that the Sox don’t see Bard as the 2012 closer, right?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
partly because spring training is not necessarily an accurate representation of actual baseball
you have starters pitching as much as they would in a full game maybe once, and that once, they probably aren’t facing any batters more than 2 times TOPS. It certainly in no way simulates the wear and tear that can happen pitching 150 innings in a season to a guy who has broken down before reaching half that.
Every year it seems like there is a player that absolutely blows everyone away in spring training who ends up being released by mid-April. I just don’t buy that as a real effective place to measure someone’s ability. Teams that make important decisions in spring training scare me.
He's broken down by pitching half that in 70-73 games...
… as in, by pitching night after night, day after day… even when we thought he wouldn’t be available after pitching in 7 straight games (okay, I exaggerate), Tito would throw him out there again for two innings.
I think he might find starting every 5th day a little easier than getting up every night to throw an inning of high leverage relief.
And I’ll say it again… I want Bard as our closer in 2012.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
This is what I've been trying to say.
I want Bard as our closer. I’ll say it over and over again.
I just don’t see what we lose if we let him start a few games in spring training, and he doesn’t stick as a starter. He goes back to the bullpen with no real effect, right?
I guess the concern is that if he’s successful as a starter, we have to shut him down in August because he isn’t ready to go more than 200 innings? If he does give us 200 innings of solid #3/#4 or even as a #5 guy in our rotation, isn’t that better than the suck we’ve been getting there the last few years?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!

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