Andrew Bailey Traded To Red Sox For Josh Reddick
According to Buster Olney, Andrew Bailey is headed to Boston in a trade that will send Josh Reddick, Raul Alcantara, and Miles Head to Oakland . Bailey becomes the answer to the hole at closer left by Jonathan Papelbon, and with Mark Melancon should form the foundation of the bullpen for the next few years.
Bailey, 27, has acted as Oakland's closer since 2009--his rookie year. While his 2011 campaign was his worst yet, he still produced a 3.24 ERA, and has never had his FIP stray above 3.00. Though Oakland likely helps some there, he's not been the victim of too many homers on the road either. Besides, one needs look no further than the last man to hold the position to know that a fly ball closer can work in Fenway Park.
Also part of the deal is outfielder Ryan Sweeney, who should help to replace Josh Reddick in right. Sweeney, 26, isn't terribly exciting, but he's a reliable sort at the plate who can reach base with some consistency and perhaps even add some power in Fenway. While it would be a bit surprising to see him as the sole starter come April, he's not a bad piece of the puzzle.
The undercard to the deal is not to be ignored, unfortunately. Raul Alcantara is a very interesting young arm, albeit about as unproven as you can be, while Miles Head has intriguing power and showed it between Greenville and Salem last year. We may never hear from either of them again, but Alcantara, at least, is the sort of guy I'd prefer the Red Sox hold onto.
Still, the Sox have added a proven closer, and not taken too much of a hit in right field doing so. With so little money involved, it keeps Boston's budget open as it can be to add some rotation help, too. All-in-all, a good move from Ben Cherington and the Sox.
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Agreed.
I have always like Kalish better than Reddick (provided Kalish can stay healthy).
hopefully Bailey can stay healthy
that’s the only thing I’m worried about
Liked Reddick
But considering they were able to snag Bailey without giving away any of their top shelf prospects, I’m fairly pleased.
by The Burning Scheyer Jersey on Dec 28, 2011 5:21 PM EST reply actions
Fantastic move!!
Ben Cherington has won me over
Check out my blog at http://conor-soxrox.blogspot.com
Im hoping David comes along...
…so I don’t have to be the ‘negative nancy’ who gets flamed…Ill hold off a bit and hope the market for being negative comes down some.
The Bullpen is fairly inexpensive.
So here’s hoping they spend some money on the Rotation.
I'm assuming...
… we’ll just transition him into a starter. Because the Red Sox FO is apparently playing a game where everyone says something stupid.
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"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 5:28 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I love this quote!!
" ( are we) playing a game where everyone says something stupid" ( Parks & Rec, right?!)
I say it to my guy all the time when he says something nonsensical!!
I am OK with this trade but want the Sox to step it up now.
"Play Hard Always"
Very much P&R
I love the way that Patricia Clarkson just deadpanned all her lines in that episode.
There’s still plenty of time for this offseason to be a good offseason, I’m just not doing the baseball version of “In Belichick We Trust” this year. I’m more in the OMFG SIGN STARTERS!!!! camp.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
Jello Shot!!
I loved that entire episode!
I am with you on the Sox & starters. I just hope the new crew doesn’t make me long for Lackey or Wakefield.
It seems later than it is for some reason. This has been a very long offseason.
"Play Hard Always"
Or, to put it in a way
that aligns to the political season, I am in favor of a Red Rox stater mandate. You just can’t show up to the baseball equivelent of the ER (AKA the trade deadline) and hope to find the cure.
MassGal! Welcome back.
Seems like it’s been a while.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Hi, hope all is well!
This offseason seems ridiculously long for some reason. Perhaps the slomo free fall of the regular season has made it that way.
"Play Hard Always"
I'd be better if the Celts started winning
The lack of Celts until 3 days ago may have something to do with the longness of the offseason, for me anyway.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Sean, at least you have Man City to enjoy for a while
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 29, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
So now we've said goodbye to Lowrie and Reddick
both for young cheap relievers. I don’t know, I just don’t know.
I actually mind losing Reddick less than Lowrie.
And at least we got a closer here… not that I really wanted Bailey.
I feel like 2011 was a bit of an abberation for Reddick’s career, which has shown very little plate discipline. If he’s really turned the corner, good for him. I assume Sweeney is a RHH? We were a little lefty heavy in the OF, and I think Kalish has a bigger upside than Reddick anyway.
I don’t hate this move.
However… GET SOME STARTING PITCHING!
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Ugh.
Okay, that doesn’t make me happy.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Bigot!
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 29, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
I was afraid it was going to be a lot worse
I still think we should have gone after free agents instead, and I would have liked to see Reddick stick around. But if there had to be a Bailey trade, I’m glad it was this one.
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 5:30 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I think this is my feeling too.
Reddick in RF to start 2012 would have been fine, but in 2013, I really hope it is Kalish out there.
I didn’t want to trade with Beane for Bailey, but as long as he stays healthy, this is probably a fair price to pay. One I’m willing to pay… now… GO GET STARTING PITCHING!!
(I know, I know… broken record…)
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
seriously
look at the Athletics Nation thread, and see how disappointed they are? Look back to the Gio/Bailey mega-deal that might have involved Middlebrooks. Back then, the A’s Nation commenters were sure that Bailey would net some big Red Sox position player prospects.
Given this context, I would have thought the sense of “phew!” would be more widely shared by Red Sox fans.
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 6:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
The deal itself is a steal
It’s implications for the Sox are what bothers me.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Yes, but I'm slowly coming to around to the idea that Bard or Aceves will be #5.
As long as we get a real #4, and some serious AAA depth, and with Dice K coming back at the All-Star Break, maybe we’re not in such dire straits for a starting pitcher as it feels like.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Kuroda!
My kingdom for Kuroda, 200 innings of 3.75 ERA ball. How glorious that would be.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I think he's not leaving the West Coast.
And besides… if Oswalt will really take a one year deal to rebuild his value, that’s the guy I want. Oswalt, with a chip on his shoulder… the man’s been a workhorse his whole career, and slotting him fourth in our rotation?
He’s thrown 200+ innings in 7 of the last 9 seasons (181 in one of those two – 2009, and only 139 last year after he hurt his back cleaning up from a hurricane). His ERA was over 4 only once, 2009, which looks like an injury year. Pitched in Enron/Minute Maid Park where pitchers were notoriously getting lit up due to the short porches, so Fenway shouldn’t bother him, then went to Philly, another small park.
Seriously… sign me up for some Oswalt.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Not to mention... if he wants a ring, Boston's a great place to go for it.
He’s late in his career, only one World Series appearance… he wants a three year deal, and realizes he isn’t getting it.
So, take a one year deal in Boston, with our offense and the rotation in front of him, rebuild the value for a longer contract after 2012, and get a ring along the way? Why wouldn’t he come to Boston??
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
To be honest
I feel like part of the reason NOT to is because he could also have a chance at a ring with several other clubs, and to be honest probably a better chance with some due to less divisional compeition. In the AL East he plays in hitter’s parks against NYY, TB, and a Toronto team that always plays tough.
I want Oswalt badly on a one year deal…but I feel like he could probably build his value up just as much if not more elsewhere.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 29, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
So pick the other destinations out for me...
… a team that has $10 million to spend on a SP, a hole in their rotation (or would be willing to make one), not in the AL East (rules out the Yankees) and not in a hitters park (rules out the Rangers).
Again, my point is… he’s confident he’s still got the stuff… what better way to prove it than in the AL East?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Angels?
Could try and go all-out the next couple years, before Pujols becomes an albatross.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
Also: Tigers, Brewers, maybe Cardinals, Marlins, or Nationals.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
Well
I didn’t say a potential team would have to have all the things you mention. I said that he would have as good or probably a better chance at a ring elsewhere. Which isn’t unreasonable as we play in the toughest division with four legitimate teams.
I said he could build value just as much if not more than elsewhere. Which I also don’t find to be unreasonable. He has a great offense and solid bullpen around him here, but we are not the only team that can provide that. We’re not the slam dunk choice, I guess is my point.
TLD would pretty much give all the ones I would mention. If they don’t get Darvish, I (personally) wouldn’t rule out Texas. They play in a hitters park but they also play in a weak division that has some terrible offenses and good pitcher’s parks. Similar to the Rockies…Same situation the Rockies are in.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 29, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think the Rockies are ready to contend though.
I’d say Angels and Tigers are both in a better situation to run for the WS than the Sox are right now, with the Tigers probably being the best option for Oswalt. In Detroit, Oswalt slots in as the #3 pitcher behind Verlander and Fister, and pitches in front of a great offense with an elite bullpen backing him up. If Detroit gets an Oswalt or a Kuroda, and can swing a trade for a real 3B like Headley, or even Youkilis/Middlebrooks, it would make them my favorite for the Series.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
Truth
Good point about the Rockies. Plus in Oswalt’s favor both the AL Central and AL West are a little more favorable for pitchers.
However, I hope that Oswalt reads this and completely ignores everything but this part of Aloha’s post:
So, take a one year deal in Boston, with our offense and the rotation in front of him, rebuild the value for a longer contract after 2012, and get a ring along the way? Why wouldn’t he come to Boston??
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 29, 2011 9:42 PM EST up reply actions
I hope he does too
but it doesn’t change the fact that the Tigers are probably in a better position to get that ring. Especially if the new Wild Card rules take effect this year.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I'd agree we're not the slam dunk choice.
However, something tells me the list is shorter than TLDs list, and while Oswalt is a Texas boy, I’m not sure I see him signing with the Rangers even if they lose the Darvish negotiations.
Still have my fingers crossed that Boston makes sense for him… where’s that Theo Epstein Thanksgiving Sales Pitch when you need one? Did he leave the script behind for Ben?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
You're probably right, the list in reality might be shorter.
Oswalt played in Texas for ten years but he is from Mississippi and I thought his home was there now. Probably not a big bargaining chip for Texas anyway. Still, they’ve shown some interest in him before. Nationals,
But I cross my fingers too. It’s hard to tell what he considers options without knowing more about his wishes.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 30, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
Whoops. I really thought he was a Texas boy.
Too bad we don’t still have that other Mississippi boy to help lure him to Boston…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
very glorious
If he could be counted on to do it in the AL East. No sure thing.
We're going into 2012 with Bard and Aceves in the rotation.
The FO is being incredibly dense, and I cannot see this ending well for us. I imagine we’ll be looking at 2013 Free Agents by July.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
We're going into January 2012 with Bard and Aceves in the rotation.
In no way is this an issue.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
was going to say this
you do good work, Ben.
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 10:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Howsonot?
I can understand the issue might be overblown, but I can’t understand the lack of an issue.
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
Because it just means the move hasn't happened yet.
It’s not like tons of legitimate candidates have come and gone. My top two targets are still out there. Wilson wasn’t going to happen, Gio would’ve been a bad idea, etc.
If guys like Kuroda and Maholm start disappearing, then it’s an issue. Until that, though, it’s just a matter of patience.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
But we have what, $6M less to make a move now?
The majority of that being spent on players to fill holes he created in the first place.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Depends on whether or not Henry and co. have made a hard cap
And once again, depends on whether you think they ever would have stuck with the bullpen being what it was.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, yay circles
And once again back to Bard. If they had just left him at the job he was supposed to take, closer, Melancon was the only move to make and that cost us 500k more. We’d have another $4.5M to spend because this move would be superfluous.
I for one do believe they have a hard cap. They’ve always been the ownership type to have their number and stick to their guns.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Another $4.5 million and another SP to get.
Bard IS the other starter at this point. Move past it. SP cost more than relievers, so we diverted our cheap asset to the more expensive role in the anticipation that he can provide even a mediocre performance there, knowing that there’s significant potential upside to that role too.
A mediocre starting pitcher with high upside can cost quite a bit. That’s the reality of the market these days.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 29, 2011 12:10 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's the thing Benjamin!
I can’t! It seems like such a boneheaded move for THIS team in THIS offseason with THIS budget.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Well said
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Dec 29, 2011 5:48 AM EST up reply actions
I've finally conceded this point.
I mean, I realize if Bard is successful as a SP, it is a much bigger value to the team. I wanted him as a closer, and I didn’t want us to trade or sign one.
However, that being said, I think the deal for Bailey was probably about the cheapest play we could make. A little frustrated that the guy we got back for RF is still a LHH, but it is what it is.
We could have paid a ton more (FA: Madson or trade: Bailey himself or Soria or League or…), so I’m fine with Bard as the #5. I hope it works out.
So, now… patience is key… but when Kuroda signs with the Angels, and Maholm has gone to the Yankees… we better give Oswalt what he wants for a one year deal and call it done.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
So...
spending what? 14 mill on Paps would have been shrewder than the 6 mill we have spent now?
Reddick was the answer in RF?
Not sure what your argument is here.
We needed pitching going into the offseason, closer, starter, setup man – you name it.
We’re slowly filling those gaps with quality arms.
by CelticPride on Dec 28, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
Where the hell did I say that?
If you read here often you’ll know quickly that I think spending money on a reliever is the most dumb assed thing you could possibly do. Bard and Melancon would have costs us $500K more considering Lowrie and Punto swap that was required for it.
That would leave $5.5M more to go to pitching. Plus I think that Reddick was a perfectly adequate option for RF considering he costs us almost nothing. He held his own last year, the offense was one of the best in the league despite limited production from the corners, he plays excellent defense and his bat even on the lower end of what he can do is worth playing him. I felt that after Papi, there was a not a single move to be made on the lineup that wasn’t superfluous considering the team’s real need, starting pitching.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
$5.5 million to go after one more starting pitcher.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 29, 2011 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
$5.5M MORE, to go after 2 starting pitchers.
In my fantasy world I’ve moved Bard back to closer.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Yes, I got that.
We have X to buy one starting pitcher. In your world, we have X+5.5 to buy two.
One decent-mediocre starting pitcher costs more than $5.5
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 29, 2011 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
I think $5.5M starter B
Gives us a better chance at success in the 5 slot than Bard.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I'll respectfully disagree until you can find me one currently available.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 29, 2011 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
There also exists the possibility that instead of alloting X to starter A
We allot .75X to C and allocate .25X+$5.5M to B.
Or we spend X+$5.5M on D and go with Miller and Aceves in the 5 spot with 4 Aces.
The $5.5M could be a lot of flexibility we no longer have.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
The $5.5M was a lot of flexibility right up until it got us Bailey.
We now have one spot to fill, as we inevitably would have after signing one SP. In fact, I expect that’s largely why we got Bailey.
Once again, separate Bard from it, and it becomes a smart deal.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 29, 2011 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
You can't
You cannot separate Bard from any of this. With Bard out of the pen, there is no Bailey.
This only becomes a smart deal if Bard ends up being a smart play in the rotation. And there isn’t a whole lot in the way of evidence to suggest that pro or con. Which given the teams needs going into the offseason and the budget, is a con. Or it’s only smart if you’re buying into the dumb baseball wisdom that says you need to spend that much on “bonafide” closer.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
You can, though, because that had already happen.
All the hatred for this deal seems to stem not from the fact that they think it’s uneven, but because they still hate the idea of Bard moving to the rotation. But that experiment is a sunk cost now. It’s going to happen. And given that, and the fact that, no, the Sox’ bullpen is not OK relying on Melancon/Aceves/Jenks/Morales, this move makes a lot of sense.
Closer or not, a bullpen does need reliable options, and Bailey seems to be that.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 29, 2011 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
I've admitted as much several times
The deal itself is good, a steal even.
But I can’t agree with it on the grounds of how permanent it makes the Bard move and I won’t agree with subsequent moves that are also made because of what we’re doing with Bard.
To me, Bard in the rotation is like… like a dog turd on the carpet. And these moves are like coming home and your roommate who owned the dog saying “hey we put febreeze on it” instead of cleaning it up and scrubbing the carpet. No matter what, there is still a turd under all those layers of frebreeze sprayings and eventually we’re just going to die of inhalation poisoning.
Good deals built on the foundation of bad ideas, aren’t necessarily as good I guess is what I feel. And I’ll continue feeling that way until Bard shows something as a starter probably.
So we can we leave it at dog turds bud?
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Fair enough
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 29, 2011 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
I've got two more hours worth
Of arrested development to watch before bed time.
I apologize for what I may have done to your dreams tonight if you’re bed bound soon.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Too busy preparing for a trip tomorrow.
So I’m not. Enjoy AD.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 29, 2011 1:20 AM EST up reply actions
Oh I am
I don’t know how I overlooked this show.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Totally, totally awesome show.
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 29, 2011 1:52 AM EST up reply actions
We really need to stop creating problems as a team
We never had a closer problem. We got Melatonin which was a shrewd move, who would’ve paired well with Bard. Now we get yet another bullpen arm, who regardless of value is simply unnecessary and takes away resources from our actual issues.
Now we still have an SP problem and have added an RF problem to the mix.
This was my stance too.
However, we’ve got Bailey, so it’s time to start hoping that Bard works as our #5 starter, at least long enough to get us to Dice K’s return (yes, I actually said that…)
Of course, Ben makes a strong argument. If we didn’t move Bard to the rotation, the need was two SPs and we have the same X+$5.5 million to sign them. With Bard in the rotation, we needed another bullpen arm for the closer role, so we got Bailey for a fairly minimal cost (I think Reddick’s 2011 is as good as it is going to get) and $5.5 million.
So, now… we just need to spend X on Oswalt/Kuroda/Maholm, and throw out some AAA deals to some depth, and pray like hell that Bard makes the transition to starter as well as Wilson did; and as well as Derek Lowe and John Smoltz swapped back from their time as closers.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
We really don't know what they have to spend.
Only they do. They have said they’ll go over the Luxury Tax threshold, because they have to, they just don’t want to go over by that much. Say they trade for Gavin Floyd, who’s only making $7 million this year, that could work out well.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 29, 2011 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
I think it wouldn't be hard to make a guess on what they want to spend
And with a calculator you can figure out what they already have spent. We know they want to stay close to the luxury tax and everything they’ve done and said screams to me ‘tempering expectations’. The number of times they’ve said they want to stay close, that they initially said they felt Melancon can close, that they’re saying now that they think their other RF (Sweeney needs help there) will be internal, that all tells me we don’t have much.
They’re an organization that has chosen a number and stuck with it, in contracts, payroll, you name it. With what they’ve said and done, I think they’re approaching that number.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
They've also said they won't go over it in the past,
but they have. And just because they seem to be approaching that number doesn’t mean they have officially reached it. Alex Speier, in analyzing this trade says the Sox have flexiblitey to acquire a SP, via FA or trade, and that Bard or Aceves will wind up in the Rotation, not both. So by making theis trade and the Meleancon deal, they’ve strengthened the BP oin the cheap, and allowed them to have flexibiltuy to make a deal for a SP.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 29, 2011 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
They're making more noise this offseason on limits
Than I ever remember, they’ve been making noise about it since July really. This offseason they’re noting that they’re willing to go over, but with the noise I think they know exactly how far over, and it isn’t that far. And did Speier indicate what quality of a starter? They go from $400K to over $20M.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
They are in on Kuroda, who is something like $10-12.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 29, 2011 12:39 AM EST up reply actions
I haven't been gleeful in months
Kuroda would make me gleeful.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
He did not mention that.
But John Heyman, and Ken Rosenthal, have both tweeted that the Red Sox are strictly focused on SP now. They’ve named Kuroda, Jackson, Oswalt and others as FA, and Garza, Jurrjens, and others as trade targets.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 29, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
I am willing to be patient
so long as the Yankees don’t get Garza. If they land him, it is time to panic. The Rays will be better next year (if only because they will get full years out of Jennings, Moore and Longoria). If the Yankees add a good starting pitcher, the RS are going to wind up looking like the third best team in the division.
Would it really be time to panic?
I can’t be alone in realizing we have right around a 0% chance of winning the division. If we’re lucky, and the Rays backslide, we may have a slight chance at the WC. Then in the playoffs, anything can happen.
Especially with that new format: a one game WC.
It does start in 2012, right?
So, really… we need to hope the Yankees backslide, that ARod’s surgeries in Germany don’t bring him back healthy enough to contribute a lot, that they stick by Jeter as he finally fades, that Mariano is no longer invincible and Soriano has a mental meltdown…
I mean, really, unless we want it to be a one game crapshoot in the first round, winning the division is a lot more important now.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Read the Speier piece.
He points out only one will be in the rotation the other will be in the bullpen, because this trade and the Melancon trade gives them flexibility to go out and sign or trade for a starter.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 28, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
To sign a starter maybe
I don’t see a whole hell of a lot of trade pieces left in the upper minors for us to get a starter. Maybe if we wanted to trade Iglesias for Lohse.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
Everybody was saying that we'd get fleeced in this deal, which we didn't.
If they had to give sombeody good to get a starter of quality, they would. But even if we sign SP between now and ST, which will porbably happen , it lessen the fact that Bard and Aceves to both be in the rotation. It’d be one or the other, not both.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 28, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, that's my take at this point.
I didn’t want Bailey because he was going to cost us Middlebrooks/Kalish and some kind of pitching arm we’ll need down the road.
However, losing these two low level prospects and Reddick (who probably was as highly valued as he was going to get) is fine with me, especially if the organization thinks Kalish is our future RF (or will take over in CF when Ellsbury leaves).
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Yes, yes I do.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
that's good to hear though
Sweeney is a pretty substantial upgrade over DMac so I’m happy about that
Wait for the other shoe to drop here.
Not convinced Sweeney/Kalish is the final story here, especially with all the right-handed obsession.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
I imagine we have a right fielder coming
unless they have full faith in Kalish which, as much as I like him, I hope they don’t
Who are the OFs available in the free agent pool?
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
Cody Ross?
No one else good?
And remember, if I’m qualifying Cody Ross as “good”, that’s a pretty low bar
Well, if Cody Ross is the best outfielder available in free agency.
Then RF will be an incredibly big hole next year.
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
Ross ='$6.5M
i’m OK with Sweeney amd Kalish or Lin or Linares, whoever comes out of ST strong. This team does NOT need a big bat in RF, just good glove and adequate bat which Reddick, Kalish, Lin, Linares and Sweeney all give. Unless they plan to exceed the cap, spend the $$ and prospects on SP. The Pen, lineup and bench are really terrific
Agreed.
We were a great offense without a big bat in RF last year, with Youk missing significant time (hope he stays healthy), with Pedroia not at the top of his game offensively, with Crawford a black hole, Salty/Tek at C and with Gonzo still lacking power.
Good defense in RF, with another year’s rehab on Gonzo’s shoulder, Crawford being “average” (if not better), Youk staying healthy (please, God), Lavarnway catching by the All-Star Break, and Pedey in MVP form? We won’t even notice the bat in RF as long as we get good defense.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Sure, I don't count him
because I don’t know anything about him except that his video is ridiculous. Can he hit major league pitching? Has anyone ever come over from Cuba and made the transition seamlessly into the majors without at least a year in the minors?
Yeah, I don't know,
But he’s clearly athletic enough, and is probably one of the top guys left.
I thought we liked the other Cuban defector more.
And he’s definitely not MLB ready.
Couldn’t the other shoe dropping here be announcing Oswalt signing with the Sox? I mean, it’s time to move on the SPs with the bullpen sewed up.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Yeah but we definitely don't have a RF right now
by revived0103 on Dec 28, 2011 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
True
But we still have one of the best line-ups in the MLB, or at least one of the top 1-5. We can afford to take a slight hit in the RF slot, which wasn’t highly productive last year due to Drew’s down year.
We cannot in my opinion afford to go into the season without upgrades to starting pitching. I think Aloha is right, the time to concentrate on the SP market is now.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 29, 2011 8:17 AM EST up reply actions
I would argue that the time to concentrate on SP was before now.
But still and the same, I agree overall.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Hell, as long as Crawford isn't awful.
We could have an awful RF and still end up with an improvement if Crawford delivers just an “average” performance.
Honestly, I think Crawford is going to have a good 2012, and this offense is going to look ridiculously good.
What we really need is a #4 starter.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Well, maybe we can buy a RF?
Oh right, we’re poor.
Maybe we can trade for one?
Oh right, we have no prospects left.
Maybe Kalish?
Oh right, he’s nothing.
We've got quite a few prospects left, actually...
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
Depends on the return, doesn't it?
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
No, I think we're probably set with them now.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
You thought the Pen was a finished product?
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
Ace may be a bit of a smokescreen.
And Bard…well, it’s a point of contention.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
We had Bard Aceves and Papelbon last year and look where that got us
What you’re fine with is essentially the same as last year, just with Melancon instead of Paps.
For my part, I want one decent-to-good SP innings eater as a free agent, and a cheap, boring #5 guy. I want Aceves in relief. I want Bard to have his shot at the #5 spot, but be back to the pen by April if things don’t work out. You know, the pen with Bailey.
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 6:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Our bullpen did not cost us October
It was overwhelmingly our SP. Bard is questionable, no doubt, since he lost us 9 freaking games last year, but today’s move hurts us.
I agree that SP
was the main culprit but Bard blew how many games in Sept? Four? Not to mention Paps blew two saves down the stretch as well. The bullpen was definitely a problem in Sept last year.
I'd disagree with that.
All of September was a problem last year. Over the whole of the year, the ’pen was quite good.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Because it was exhausted trying to cover for SPs that couldn't go five innings.
Look it up… how many starters made it through the fifth inning in September. Pretty sure it was only once, or maybe twice… the whole month.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
"Our bullpen did not cost us October"
is hardly a vote of confidence. I don’t want a “at least they did not cost us October” bullpen. I want a good bullpen. I want a great bullpen, one that can protect enough leads to be the edge that gets us into October, if it really has to be.
Of course, when you miss the playoffs by 1 game,almost anything worth 1 win can be called “the cause.” Better starting pitching could have made the difference. So could better relief. I agree with you that starting pitching is actually a higher priority but I don’t see that this trade prevents us from doing that. If it does, you are right. But I don’t think it does.
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 6:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
oops
“but I don’t see that this trade prevents us from doing that” means “but I don’t see that this trade prevents us from pursuing starting pitching”
This thread is probably all scrunched to the side, but I’m posting on mobile and it looks fine on mobile.
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 6:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The one person who arguably
cost us September was Bard. The guy who was worn down by then. And we’re looking to make him a starter now.
Not good.
Our bullpen didn't kill us in 2011.
Our rotation did.
Last time I checked, this is another RP move and I do believe we need SPs.
I’m not as disappointed to see Reddick go here, and Bailey might be a good closer… however, I want Bard in the bullpen and I want two SPs signed if the money is still available.
So, go get it done, Ben!!
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Right, but it's not an either-or proposition
Starting pitching killed the team, and so did relief to a lesser extent. We were out of the post-season by one game so literally anything that makes up that difference gets us into the playoffs.
The “downgrade from Papelbon to Melancon, keep everything else the same, what could go wrong?” strategy some are advocating doesn’t get us closer to winning. Improving the pen, was very possible, very necessary, and doesn’t prevent us from signing starters.
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 10:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
But it isn't downgrading from Papelbon to Melancon.
It’s downgrading from Bard to Melancon.
That’s the funny thing… by advance pitching metrics, Papelbon looked better on paper than Bard in 2011, especially with Bard’s four losses in September. But by another metric, which looks at the pitcher values (cited somewhere else on here, but I cannot find it now), Bard was the more valuable pitcher last year.
So, really… you could have (not anymore) moved Bard to closer and seen improvement; while Melancon is taking over Bard’s set up role.
I really would have been fine with that, but now I’m hoping for Oswalt in the #4 and that Bard or Ace gives us the #5 we’ll need.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I like how Ben is trading for
high upside pitching that’s under team control. And It wouldn’t surprise me if his evaluation of Lowrie and Reddick is that they are seriously flawed players.
That's why i flipped out when I saw this.
Looks like we’re taking a downgrade there.
The Sox led MLB in runs
with little production coming from RF. I’m spit balling here, but I don’t think the loss of Reddick is going to make or break the Sox. Sweeney/Kalish in RF suits me just fine. Kalish is younger, and has more upside than Reddick. This trade was a coup for Cherington, and the Sox.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Dec 28, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
Kalish is constantly hurt, and not ready for the bigs
Bailey is an Oakland pitcher, which is similar to being a Seattle or San Diego pitcher. We had a good to elite bullpen already. This trade makes me want to puke.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
Bailey is only an Oakland pitcher if he chooses to be.
K/9 and BB/9 aren’t inherently effected by the ballpark.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
Reddick
managed a 109 OPS+ last year in RF, the majority of that coming from a hot start, Ryan Sweeney just by his little self managed a 91 OPS+. Even with just Sweeney penciled in there (which I doubt will be the case) its not a huge drop-off
last year
in 299 PA’s, Sweeney was worth .1 fWAR
in 278, Reddick was worth 1.9
admittedly though, a good bit of that is in fielding, which is somewhat volatile. I guess as long as Sweeney’s knee is genuinely healthy, it’s probably OK
$3.5M
That’s a quite a bit for a superfluous piece. Team control sure, but once they hit ARB they start costing you money.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
They start costing you money...
if they’re really good.
That's what worries me.
Go to fangraphs and look at his home/away splits for his career.
I think he’s going to suck, and he has an injury history that worries me.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Yeah he has struck out fewer guys
away from Oakland, and walked more, and given up more homers in fewer innings. Even so, he’s had a lower ERA on the road.
He seems to pitch differently on the road
K rate goes from 10.45 to 7.40, BB rate nearly doubles from 1.87 to 3.27. His FIP/xFIP splits are terrifying.
I’m not convinced he’s going to be good outside the notorious coliseum, appears lucky to me so far.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
The stadium should only effect HR/FB, and even away that number is fine.
Guys perform better at home. Not unusual. Given that relievers can keep HR/FB down…
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
With a place like Oakland
Could it be the mentality that ‘I can be more agressive because my massive outfield can help me’ ?
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
That was my thought too.
We can hope not.
Again, Beane seems to dump closers at an ideal time. It is the current market inefficiency, but it’s hard for me to look at this right now and think we overpaid for Bailey.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I think he was a steal for what he is
But I question what he will be going forward in a smaller park, his injury history and the implications for Bard, the rotation and the payroll.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
And dealing with Beane for a closer is always tricky.
Who was the guy he gave to the White Sox that completely imploded?
And granted, we won the 2004 World Series with Foulke and it might have been our overuse of him in 2004 that did it, but he was done in 2005, right?
This is another reason I didn’t want to trade for Bailey…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
He even wrote about it his book (well, Michael Lewis wrote about it in Michael Lewis' book)
He called it “selling the closer”.
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
Which is why I really wanted it to be Bard.
I was even open to the idea of Aceves. Hell, Melancon saved 20 games last year.
Still, rather this trade than signing Cordero or Madson.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Wouldn't call Bailey superfluous at the moment...
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
I consider closer to be an imaginary need because they're being stupid with Bard.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Depends on what you think about Bard.
I’d hope they aren’t making the move without being sure of his changeup. If that pitch shines like it can, then it might not be so bad as y’all seem to expect.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
isn't that effective
due to the difference with the fb? If he’s throwing 93 instead of 100, not so good anymore.
I don't think Bard goes down to 93
But no, the pitch has some nasty movement when it’s on. He mixed in some gems this year, though it wasn’t consistent.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
somewhere deep in my brain I'm hoping that maybe they're putting Bard in the rotation
because he has secretly learned to repeat “the pitch.” You know the one I’m talking about. The one to Swisher. Possibly the best pitch that has ever been thrown.
I know that it’s not the case, but I can dream
Hepatitis-K
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
I have a feeling that even if he repeatedly used H-K
Someone would eventually figure out how to hit it, a la Mariano’s Cutter.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
It's not an imaginary need.
It’s a self-imposed need.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Why not Youk?
I mean, if we’re going slow in RF…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
He is certainly has a higher likelihood of success as a closer than a starter.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Why not?
He’s a good reliever, good relievers are exactly the type of player you want to try out as your closer.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
I know you dont like his injury history
but that can be said of Ells, Buch and others who are reaching their high sides. Kalish promises to be a good defender, arm, baserunner and decent bat. On such a powerful team with a budget problem that’s not nothing. I assume you jest.
Did I miss other significant injuries?
He lost the 2011 season to a shoulder injury when he laid out for a ball (and made the catch, right?) that most OFs wouldn’t have gotten close to.
Are there other injuries in the minors I’ve missed?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Wasn't the same thing kind of said about Ells?
How he flies all out at the ball (though Kalish clearly gets better reads) and ends up in a collision with someone like Beltre?
Wasn’t Ells knocked as a soft player after losing 2010 to injury?
I don’t know… I thought Ells looked pretty damn good in 2011. Hopefully, we’ve got Kalish in the fold early in 2012 and playing as well, though in a much different offensive role.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
no no, no one is calling Kalish soft
not the same thing at all. Just he tends to run into walls and do stupid flips and things like that which look impressive as hell and end careers early.
Don’t get me wrong, I like Kalish a lot, just there’s definitely some concern.
Just cuz Ells looked good in 2011 doesn’t mean that no other player is injury prone. Ells was never thought to be injury prone before 2010. There were a lot of people that just had alread wanted to dislike him before that.
In any case, Kalish isn’t even playing baseball until may-june at least.
Well, I remember a lot of folks...
… both talking heads and in OTM threads, projecting that Ells couldn’t stay healthy because of how he plays the game, that’s all.
I’m not making a direct comparison.
Oh, crap. Kalish is still out? I thought he was ready to go by ST.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
That I missed.
Damn.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Which is essentially the same
As calling them soft, but for different reasons. Soft, injury prone, reckless. They all amount to about the same, for one reason or another, we don’t place a lot of value in their ability to finish the season.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I wouldn't call him soft
Just like I wouldn’t call a player like Kevin Smith on the Lions soft. Dude goes out and gets hurt, it sucks, but it doesn’t make him a pussy.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
I love this!
He looks like a guy who will benefit from the Monster quite a bit. I think the plan might be to start a platoon of Sweeney and DMac to start with and see if Kalish is healthy and ready for the show. If nothing else, Sweeney is a great guy to have as a fourth outfielder since he can play all three positions well.
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by Mattsullivan on Dec 28, 2011 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
Hopefully this calms some nerves.
Ken_Rosenthal
#RedSox exploring all avenues for SP. Best available FAs: Kuroda, Jackson, Oswalt, Saunders. Trade: Garza, Jurrjens.
remember when people thought we could get Garza for Theo?
hahaha. ha ha ha
I dunno, did anyone ever really believe that?
I mean, I know they asked, but that seems far fetched.
What did the White Sox get for Ozzie again?
Why aren’t we getting similar compensation for Theo?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
They got a couple "nothing" prospects.
Both were in their top 10, but largely because the Marlins system kinda sucks.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Ugh...
…can we collect ALL the players I hate on my team? Trade the farm for Delmon Young!!
Agreed, I'd have to stop following baseball for a while.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
I'd be iffy on it.
I really like WMB. But if Garza solidifies the starting rotation and puts up good numbers, I’d love it.
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
Totally anti-SABR...
…but I’ve never been a fan of Garza mental make-up (and the spitting)…I remember when he, and a lot of other Rays, just mailed it in at the end of 2008. He’ll fit right in with the Sox!!
At the end of 2008?
Didn’t they win the ALCS against us that year?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I don't think I would be either.
They are going to have to replace Youk in the next year and Middlebrooks is the only viable replacement for him in the minors right now.
Boegarts...
That’s the rumor out there anyway… we seem to think Middlebrooks will never have more value than he does right now, and in another season, Boegarts might make him expendable.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I was saying the Middlebrooks is the only guy who can replace Youk within a year.
Boegarts has tremendous upside but he is still a few years away.
. . . will need to replace Scutaro at shortstop.
No one outside the organization feels Iglesias can produce sufficiently at the plate to justify being a long-term starter at the major league level. Everyone is comparing him to former Met, Rey Ordonez, because he can be an excellent defensive player at shortstop, but can’t hit big league pitching. At best, Iglesias will keep the position warm until Boegerts, who has drawn comparisons to Hanley Ramirez (remember him?) and Asdrubal Cabrera, is ready to assume the position.
Imagine Middlebrooks at 3rd base, Boegerts at shortstop, Pedroia at 2nd base, and Gonzo on 1st.
Unfortunately
It appears that Bogaerts is not long lived for SS. He’s too big for the position, scouts nearly unanimously agree that he’ll have to move to 3B sooner or later.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Right.
So, we’re hoping Iglesias figures out how to use that wooden thing in his hands when he’s standing at the plate.
Or SS will be a black hole for another 7 years.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Not so fast
The people making that claim are doing so because Bogaerts is taller than the ideal shortstop. Because he is so lean (and only 19 years old), he is more mobile than a player this tall. He should be able to continue playing SS until he is 30 and then once he starts to gain weight, and lose a step in the process, he will have to consider a position change at that time (something the Yankees should have done with Jeter years ago).
So, like a Tulo style SS...
Tulo is “too tall” for the position too, right?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
When they say he's gonna fill out
they don’t mean that he’s gonna get fat when he’s old- they mean the bulking up that happens between 19-22ish to pretty much all athletes. Doesn’t mean it’s necessarily true, but it seems to be pretty generally agreed upon
That's the thing
He’s 19 and already taller than an ideal short stop, I’m 23 and in the last two years I’ve grown 2 more inches, I’m now well taller than my father when at graduation we were the same height.
He’s going to gain weight naturally over the next couple of years as he builds muscle to fit his frame. His move is likely going to be soon.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
What?
I’m pretty sure I stopped growing in my teens…
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I dunno....it was a long time ago.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Communist water additives.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
They make me forget that I stopped growing??
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
They made you stop growing AND made you forget
They also stop you from noticing you and all your comrades are the same height.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I stopped growing at 17, when I hit 6'2"
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
I was closer to 21/22.
Graduated high school at 5’10"/160 and finished college playing rugby at 6’/180… now, if only I could have stayed there for the next couple decades.
My dad stayed at his college playing weight until he was 50, and I’m already 20 pounds heavier than he was at 50…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I knew I liked you
playing rugby
What was your position? I played both flanker spots in College, little bit of inside center as well.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 30, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
I was a flanker mostly... my jersey was #6.
… but if one of our locks got hurt, my coach liked that I had the leg strength to help drive the pack and still wound up with the speed to get out and make a play on the ball, so I played there too.
I was essentially our third lock or our third flanker, which for a rugby team means I started every game, but where depended on which guy was hurt.
We were undefeated my senior year, and the two flankers ahead of me were All-Union, and one had played 8 man for the Under-18 national team for Paraguay.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I would
only because the Sox have a window to win the WS and Ranaudo will not be ready before that window closes. While I personally cant stand watching the Lizard/Camel pitch, the spitting is worse than a porn set, he will solidify the rotation and give the Sox a formidable rotation to go against the Angels, Yankees and Phillies.
I have nothing against Ranaudo, he just wont be ready fast enough.
Just so long as they don't do the crazy thing
And overpay for Jair.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
Which is why the news we're out on him should be greeted warmly in here.
Saw it in the BZ Update thread, and people were actually upset.
No, Jair doesn’t solve our SP problem. Us being out on him is a good thing, because it means we’re looking at getting a SP that can slot to the #4.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Ben is consistent, persistent, efficient.
The Pen is set as can be with young arms, both righty and lefty. It is also deep. Bailey, Melancon, Jenks, Morales means any of Acevas, Bard, Doubront, Tazawa could win the 4 & 5 slots. Sweeney is a lefty but a good fielder who was blocked in Oakland and may be blocked here by Kalish/Lin. He is described by his coach as a pure hitter with potential power and will turn 27 in ST. Could he be flipped in another trade? I will miss Reddick but am happy he will play; and moving him breaks the logjam in RF. Melancon and Bailey, to me, are strong moves.
You are Scott Boras...
…and I claim my five pounds.
Our bullpen is an abyss
Right now all we have is Bailey, Melancon, abyss.
Doubront, Tazawa, Morales, Atchison and Jenks? I don’t want to put any eggs in that basket. And we’re not sure where Aceves and Bard will end up.
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 6:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ace would go a long way to shoring that up
I’m not worried about the bullpen. It really wasn’t a concern on my mind.
I agree,
I really hope they do not move Aceves to the rotation.
Agreed.
I was actually thinking Ace for closer made some sense, and now this.
Still, I don’t share your opinion of Reddick. I think we sold high there, and got a reasonable return… I’m more concerned that the prospects end up panning out in a few years, which is clearly what Beane is looking for too.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Our offense was pretty damn good with the ghost of J.D. Drew and Reddick out there in 2011.
Somehow, I think we’ll be fine if it’s DMac and Sweeney in 2012.
I do hope we see Kalish there by the All Star Break, but we’ll see how it pans out.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Our offense would be better with Reddick getting some full time at bats.
He put up 2 WAR in half a season, even if you don’t think he’s a 4 win player 2.5-3 wins is nothing to sneeze at.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
Sweeney provides terrific platoon splits if Bobby V utilizes him properly.
Also hits well to left.
He just needs a partner. I fear that’ll be a DMac or Aviles, though.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
why?
he’s fine at what he does- which is hitting lefties and playing corner outfield positions. He’s not good, but he serves a purpose and is essentially free.
I'm not convinced he can hit lefties.
He seemed to get some remarkable junk balls last year after his laughably bad start. Not sure he’s not the guy he showed at the beginning of the season compared to the end.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 29, 2011 1:04 AM EST up reply actions
I dunno, it's hard to say for sure since his career is a series of small sample sizes
but looking at what we do have, of the last three years (which are the three he has over 50 PAs against lefties), last year was his year with the lowest k%, only .1% below his BB%, and his lowest BABIP against lefties by a long shot, and at the end of the year, his numbers against them look fine. There’s really nothing, statistically at least, that makes it look to me like he was extremely lucky.
I mean, I’d rather have Andruw Jones, but if McDonald is gonna be our fifth outfielder, that’s not terrible.
How's his defense?
Unlike LF, we actually need a guy who can play in Right.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
He's solid.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
Would be more enthusiastic if I were certain of his health. If the knee isn't bothering him anymore, he's good.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
What does "solid" mean?
We don’t necessarily need Drew again, but I would hate to think we’re trotting out Abreu or Hart.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
Outfield UZR and DRS of ~+24 over his 6-year career
Down lately due to a knee issue. If healthy, he’s a strong defender.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
Good to know
at least we got something right in this trade.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
There is a good chance Bard is in the pen as well
I would say Bard, Bailey, Melancon, Jenks and which ever lefties they decide to use.
Thats not a stellar pen, but its not horrible either.
I disagree
I would say Jenks/Ace (who also can’t start)/Melatonin/Bard/Bailey is a friggin amazing pen. If we had even a mediocre rotation I’d say our pitching was top-notch.
I think even without Bard that's a great bunch.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
Herein lie the seeds of hope...
Which, if I were a fan of hope-seeds, would be awesome.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
So, I want you on record here...
If we sign two SPs (say, Kuroda/Maholm or Oswalt and some depth in the minors), will you at least applaud those deals?
Unfortunately, I do think we’re looking at Bard in the #5 slot in our rotation, with possibly Dice K taking over when he comes back…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Meh, we'll see what the terms are
There’s no SP that really thrills me. But I can be excited if we get a good deal.
Sox fans lose
two players who are way past prospect stage and who have major issues in Lowrie and Reddick and get back 2 solid to very good arms who are young and controlled in return and the fans complain….sheesh
Most of the fans that are complaining are worried about two things.
One is the fact they think this seals Bard’s fate in the rotation, which I don’t think is the case. When acquire the starter they want, I think in ST you’ll see Bard, Aceves and others competing for the #5 spot. The winner gets first crack at the spot, and the losers either go to the bullpen or down to the minors. The other thing people are worried about is that the Sox have limited resources, which seems to be the case by the moves they have made, but when two very respected reporters, John Heyman and Ken Rosenthal, both point out that the Sox are in on guys like Kuroda, Oswalt, Jackson, Garza, and others, who won’t come cheap by the fact they are Starting pitchers, the true limits of the budget is not really known. Starters, unless you draft and sign them are going cost a lot of money, so while it seems like they have been limited up till now, it may just be that they know the biggest expenditure they will have this off-season will be SP and why spend tons of money on other less valuable areas.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 29, 2011 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
In a vacuum
Yeah this is a good deal.
But considering the Red Sox’s situation, this is yet another deal I’m not a fan of. $5M combined between the two added to the payroll, the bulk of it to a pitcher who has injury worries and a huge road/home split. He also, cannot start and is pointing more and more towards the Sox actually starting Bard and sticking with it… which of course only works if he’s actually good, which I have major questions of him being.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
We have zero choice with Bard now
There is no way we have a rotation of Lester, Beckett (until he’s injured), Buchholz (until he’s injured), Miller, and ????, and Bard, Melatonin and Bailey in the pen.
Then again, Leave No Bad Idea Unexploited.
You know, I wanted Bard as our closer.
However, if he makes the transition successfully and wins 20 games in 2012, we’re all going to eat our words.
(Of course, 20 wins in 160 innings pitched would be a little ridiculous…)
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
In 120 innings pitched
with Tommy John or some other ridiculous arm surgery at the end of the year.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, I know...
How about if I amend it to this… if Bard over 120 innings, plus Dice K after the All Star Break combine to win 20 games, then a lot of folks in here will need to eat their words.
I’m beginning to think that might actually be the plan… either Ace or Bard in the #5 spot keeping it warm for Dice K (for all his faults, a damn good #5), and we spend whatever money we have left on a #4 starter. Hopefully Oswalt or Kuroda.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Bard doesn't have to be 'good'
He has to be ‘better than wake and Lackey’…which is something anyone here could do.
if he's just mediocre as a starter
then move him back to the pen. He’s too good of a pitcher to be wasted as a ‘better than Wake and Lackey’ starter
that's not true
because he’s very good as a reliever, so to justify moving to a starter, he needs to actually be good at it.
Bard had a..
..1.3 WPA last year. The year before that he was good. and 2009 it was actually negative. You can’t just look at relievers in a vacuum.
IMHO he will provide more value as a starter than he would of as a reliever. This is helped by replacing him with a mediocre-good reliver like Melancon or Bailey, as opposed to replacing him with ‘mediocre probably Albers’
who knows
but, in his history, he was historically awful as a starter. And he hasn’t thrown an inning as a starter since low single A. And now, he gets to face the AL East, with his weak arm.
THIS
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I find...
… your relentless refusal to ignore the copious amounts of smoke and mirrors offered to support Bard’s inevitable Hall of Fame career as a starting pitcher to be highly suspect. Why, it’s… it’s… downright unAmerican!
You better hope that Santa isn’t reading this!
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 6:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
UnAmerican?????
TRY CANADIAN!!
BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA~!!!!! <— LAUGH WITHOUT MIRTH
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I KNEW IT!
Someone call Rick Perry!
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 6:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Kim Jong the Second spits at Rick Perry from Hell~!!
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Perhaps the least baseball post ever in OTM.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Don’t we have to ignore that data in favor of all the incredible staggering mountains of data that suggest he’ll be an All-Star?
Oh wait, there’s no actual data of that sort at all.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 6:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Oh, yes there is, my friend!!
A little piece of data I call...CJ Wilson.
Check and mate.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Perfidy!
Damn you, Bloggy! Damn youuuuuuuu…
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 6:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
His stats may be
But in the end, you’re foolish if you think he’s going to last all year. They’ll have him on a strict innings limit so he’ll get shut down by the end of August after 120-150 innings. So even if he is good, they’re not going to have him when we really need him.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
More likely he'll get a few breaks during the year.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
I've heard one of the toughest things about being a starter is getting in rhythm.
How can you do that being stopped to elongate your year and how much can we take from his performance from that? It sounds like something that will turn into an excuse in 2013 to try it again even if he sucks this year ‘well he had all those breaks…’ of course we just have to survive the Mayan Armageddon first…
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Sox have always shut down guys for a few starts in the middle of the year...
…so I don’t see that as being a problem for them.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
Still creates the need for someone to pick up 50-80 innings of slack.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I'm not sure about who strict the innings limit will be
Almost all the data on pitchers needed to be limited inning-wise (ie the Verducci rule etc) applies to pitchers under 25 as that is when liagments and other connective tissues are still growing. Bard will be 27 and he has had limited overall innings due to be a reliever. He is no more an injury risk by innings count than a starter over 25 from what I understand. It would be remarkable if he did pitch more more than 170 innings though because very few 4th starters actually do. I think 150 is a good projection if he sticks as a starter.
- Matt Sullivan
"I would change policy, bring back natural grass and nickel beer. Baseball is the belly-button of our society. Straighten out baseball, and you straighten out the rest of the world." Bill "Spaceman" Lee
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by Mattsullivan on Dec 28, 2011 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not worried about an "injury" as much as I am about "fatigue"
Which I consider to be a little different than an actual injury in the way that Mono and chronic fatigue system shouldn’t be counted against Lowrie’s injury history.
I feel Bard has gotten fatigued after 60-65 innings the last two years, some sort of breakdown in mechanics. I think that 60-150 may just be too big of a jump for him.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
as far as I know, that's the way it's typically done when people transition
like Ogando last year, who got a break in the middle when he started struggling.
Craw to RF
Lavarnway to RF?
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
*LF, duh.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Dec 28, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
Can't see Lavarnway moving to left right now.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
Shouldn't you wait to see what the Opening Day roster
is going to look like instead of calling them a trainwreck in December?
Look at Beckett's 2008.
And I really don’t think Buchholz is gonna keep getting hurt
And yet 2010 is the only time
his year has been shortened by a lot.
He missed the beginning and the end of the year
which is troubling, if this is our best case scenario.
For those of you curious
Yes, SeanO does in fact work for a goalpost moving company.
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 6:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
That got a chuckle out of me...
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Really good 1B, 2B, CF.
Potentially great bullpen.
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
Bullpen only matters
when you can get them a lead in the late innings. Having a one pitcher starting rotation does not accomplish this.
Now I halfway agree with you...
… and I know you hate Beckett, but we have a three pitcher rotation right now.
Lester, Beckett and Buchholz.
However, the half I agree with you is that no matter what fills that from our current roster at the #4 & #5 spots, we don’t have enough. If we add Oswalt/Maholm/Floyd/Garland/Jackson/Kuroda… and at least two of those names, I won’t consider us a trainwreck.
Still too early to tell… but I want to see that Oswalt deal soon.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Well we still have the same offense that did quite well last year,
we have added some good bullpen arms for a fairly cheap price as well. The only concern right now is starting pitching but there is no doubt in my mind that Ben will make the moves to shore up the rotation. The offseason is still young.
Is it older?
Crawford, Gonzo, Pedey, Ells, Salty are all 30 and younger. That is a pretty good core right there.
I think Crawford will bounce back
and that Salty will be used to playing as many games as he did last season and will not fade down the stretch like he did last year.
Crawford cannot be worse in 2012.
I mean, that’s not really saying much… but he cannot be worse.
I’d like to see Salty improve another season. He did do reasonably well in 2011, after all is said and done.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Catcher is not the glaring hole we thought it was going to be.
So I think we are in a decent spot having him. Obviously he wont carry the offense but if he can improve on last year, which I think he will, then I think we are in a good spot at catcher.
Right... as I said above about Drew/Reddick.
We had a top offense with Salty in the line up, along with the ghost of Jason Varitek. Frankly, I think we’re probably in better shape at C in 2012 than we were last year, and I love the captain.
If Lavarnway continues to develop, and comes up during the season, we might have even more offense in 2012.
Our real issue is SPs. Otherwise, I feel good about this team.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Yeah, but Crawford plays like he's 40.
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
An asside: Worst Xmas gift I got this year? A Crawford jersey.
And I’m fairly certain it’s a China knockoff, too.
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
The numbers are all wrong, and it feels way too thin in order to be a real jersey IMO.
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
Then again, it might just be a really bad replica of the BP jersey.
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
You could..
..buy a Gagne and Renteria jersey and try and be ironic…or..sumthin..
I have a Renteria No. 16 tee-shirt!
I’ll have to go looking for a Gagne one now.
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
Found one at Buy.com!
Too bad it’s all sold out. http://www.buy.com/prod/boston-red-sox-eric-gagne-player-name-number-t-shirt-by-majestic-ath/205483106.html
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
Wear that under the Crawford jersey...
… maybe all that negative energy will somehow turn into positive karma for the 2012 Sox.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I've got a Mike Lowell T-shirt I wear every so often
I’m not sure if I’m wearing it ironically, or because I really love the guy for what he did in 2007
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
I love the guy for 2007.
I mean, he was the “throw in” and “salary dump” in the Beckett deal and he helped us win a World Series. For all his faults after we signed him to an extension, he’s still a player I’d be happy to shake hands with someday.
Any player that helped us win a World Series is good in my book… and I feel safe in saying that because I think Gagme impeded our efforts in 2007, rather than helped them.
Find me a guy on the 2004 or 2007 team, that helped us win, that I wouldn’t be proud to wear his jersey/t-shirt now.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Uh... okay, wait...
… perhaps I’ve just forgotten all about ManRam?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Damon?
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
He/she hates me! He/She really hates me!
2011 Overthemonster Fantasy Football Champion
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Dec 28, 2011 8:03 PM EST up reply actions
I'm sorry...
…but that’s why I asked my wife to stop buying me Red Sox stuff for Christmas. Inevitably, she just got me stupid shit.
Well the same person gave me a fantastic Carl Yastrzemski figurine.
So it was hit and miss.
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
Neither of whom pitch
The roster, as a whole, is not strong right now. Its makeup is haphazard and weird, and there aren’t many obvious options to fill the holes effectively.
Considering neither of the MVP candidates were the candidates from previous years...
… imagine if Pedey and Youk come back in 2012 to MVP candidate levels, and Ells comes back to earth a bit, and Gonzo’s shoulder is a little stronger (meaning, he runs away with the MVP award).
What a dangerous team we’d be with some pitching…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Sean did you hear that?
I think it was our window of opportunity being slammed shut.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
We still had a window
It wasn’t open very far, but it just got Hulk-slammed so hard I think it fused with the window frame.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
You really think that this team has zero chance to contend?
I understand that people are still scarred by September but to say this team has no shot is ridiculous.
This team has nobody good at either corner outfield position
and is trying to convert a pitcher who hasn’t started since single-a to the rotation. A pitcher, by the way, who became fatigued and ineffective after 70 innings last year.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 11:40 PM EST up reply actions
I fully expect Crawford to bounce back.
Plus outside of one hot streak by Reddick we didn’t have a good RF last year either and our offense was still the best in baseball. Is Kalish/Sweeney really any worse than Reddick/Ghost of JD Drew?
Yes pitching is still a concern and I am not a fan of moving Bard to the rotation either, but I believe that Ben will find the right guys to shore up our 4 and 5 spots in the rotation. This is still a very good baseball team.
We had a GREAT RF
He just didn’t hit great. He’s an excellent defender which is where I think most of his value was built in. His bat was good enough to play the position.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
You're really overvaluing Reddick at "great"
The holes in his offensive game were exposed later on. He didn’t just “get cold,” people stopped pitching to him.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
My emphasis was on defense
He’s a great right fielder, which I separate from his hitting, which is indeed separate.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Yes, Kalish/Sweeny is worse than Reddick/GoD
Mostly because it will be Kalish for about a week in April, then Sweeny/Dmac. I don’t expect Crawford to bounce back. Doesn’t he have a career OPS in Fenway in the low .700s? I’ve said elsewhere that in Boston Crawford is wasted as a player. His defense is useless because so many of the balls that go to Left are automatic hits. We don’t need a speedy glove guy in Left, we need an arm guy who can get that guy going to second off the wall.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
Sadly, this is true.
Even Manny Ramirez played the Monster well, mostly because he’d dupe guys into going for second with his lazy jog to the wall, and then rifle the ball to Pedey for the out.
And Carl doesn’t have the arm for RF, even though he’d cover a lot of ground out there with the glove.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
this team also has the runner up mvp at cf
an elite first baseman an elite 2nd baseman, an elite dh, 3 very good to dominant starters, a very good bullpen, kevin youkilis and an extra wild card spot. we can play that game with every team
The team received 2.7 fWAR from the corner outfield positions last year and still won 90 games
Which came in 8.7 wins shy of their 3rd order W-L.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
As I said below, we're gonna blow it up.
Lester will finally get that Cy Young, pitching against the NL West is a lot easier than against the AL East. Youkilis/Cabrera/Victor is a pretty awesome 3-4-5, don’t you think?
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
There's gonna be a hell of a ...
‘who the fuck are these guys’ feeling this year when Melancon sets up for Bailey to close.
Holy shit.
This is the first thread on OTM I’ve read in a couple of months, taking a break from Red Sox for a bit. And hopefully it isn’t representative of what OTM is now, because apparently it’s being run by Sean O and his negativity.
I think I’m going to continue staying away.
by ThePanda on Dec 28, 2011 5:59 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
He really does ruin it for everyone else doesn’t he?
by The Burning Scheyer Jersey on Dec 28, 2011 6:17 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
one person can't ruin everything.
debate him
by revived0103 on Dec 28, 2011 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
+ 1
I’d rather read through the globes comments section than this negativity…love this site without some of these idiots….
by royredd87 on Dec 28, 2011 6:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
but at least here...
…you can kinda hold a convo…
Stupid move = negative response
Simple as that. Maybe we can trade some of our remaining prospects for another first baseman, and continually ignore the actual problem (while creating some more).
So you dont consider the Bullpen an issue?
And if you can please explain what the “actual problem” is?
Raul Alcantara and Billy Glide or whomever were never going to make the bigs, at least not in time to help this current team, so yeah, lets move some more worthless prospects for players who can help in 2012, not possibly in 2016 or 2018 when Ellsbury will be a Yankee and Beckett will be drinking a beer at home.
Sean, how is it you assume the worst for every last position?
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
Which sadly proved you right on a horrible year.
However, I have to believe that was a once in a generation phenomenon.
SS will be fine with Scutaro, and Crawford cannot possibly be worse. So let’s add an “average” Crawford in 2012 to the rebounds by Pedroia and Youk, the “another year stronger” Gonzo, the slightly back to earth Ellsbury, the improving Salty with Lavarnway in the wings, the best DH in baseball…
Hey, I’m starting to feel more positive already!
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Yes, Crawford "can't be worse"
But I have yet to see any evidence he will be better. He’s basically a useless player for us, a LFer who brings about half his value from his stellar defense. In a park with a tiny left field that turns fly balls into automatic doubles. Seems legit guys, let’s do it.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
I knew that was why you think this way.
Alternately, I see September as an unfortunate end to a fucking great year, The best parts for me were Papi, Ellsbury, Beckett, and the 4 months that they absolutely dominated.
by revived0103 on Dec 28, 2011 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
Sean is passionate.
And abrasive. And opinionated. And closed-minded.
But he likes his team and cheers as hard as he grumbles. Call him on his shit if you disagree with him. If you don’t want to be involved in passionate debates, then yes. Feel free to read elsewhere.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
This is me calling him on his shit .
WTF ? Can Cherrington possibally make a move that you don’t hate ?You would be the same guy bitching , if he doesn’t finde a way to save enough money to resigb Ells . I for one , think Ben has made some very smart , and thrifty moves . He has made it possible for Bard and Aceves to be given a chance to start . Will they work out ? Maybe , or maybe not . There is always the chance that one of them makes the best of their opportunity .Ben is still looking to add at least one more established starter , and Dice-K will be back at the All-star break .
On a possitive note , save your tifrcket money , and stay at home . None of the real Fenway faithfuls want to put up with your negative crap , while they are trying to enjoy a day at the ballpark with their family and friends . I can’t wait to see what Ben does next !Sean may want to go change his depends . I’d hate to see him piss himself , with a chapped ass , from the huge crap he just laid in his man-diaper , after this thrifty move that Ben just made .
by EldonD on Dec 28, 2011 6:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I might not like everything he write's
But i think you may have taken it to far with this post , we are not psa !
by RED SOX are #1 in my heart on Dec 28, 2011 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
What is psa ?
I’m sorry if I was a bit harsh . I too would like to have a better rotation , and a better rightfielder , however , after years of Theo overspending , on bad moves , we need to have a year or two of thrifty GM work , to get back under the tax ceiling , while fielding a competitive team , and replenishing our minor-leagues . We are now stuck with Lackey for an extra year . Even though that year only costs .5mil , it costs the team $ 13.8 mil. in AAV . Ben needs to find a way to fill all the needs , while saving as much money as possible . He will need to find money to lock up Ells . after this year , as 2013 will be his last season under team control .
Ben got stuck with a team full of problems , with alot of holes to fill , and very little money to work with . I think he has made some very good moves , so far , and feel we should all wait until he is finished before we go overboard on the complaints .
Pin Stripe Alley ---> The Yankee blog
My problem with what they’ve done is that they really didn’t have all that many holes to fill going into next year, 2 legit starters, a depth starter and a bullpen arm. That was really all that was necessary to field a team. And they didn’t have much money due to the aforementioned tax cap that they would like to stay as close to as possible.
So what he’s done is gotten half a starter, half a questionable starter at that in Bard, two bullpen arms, a SS, OF and a C to add 6 or 7 million dollars to our tax figure and we still need 1.5 legit starters and another for depth.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I think RF is going to go from
Sweeney —> Kalish —> Lin in terms of options. With McDonald platooning.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
OUCH ! Igive up !
I know I made a bad impression , by opening my keyboard , while closing my brain , and allowing stpiidity to overflow , but damn ! Please don’t lump me in with Yankee fans . That’s just brutal .
I wasn't making any judgements
You asked what PSA was so I answered you. Chill out man.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Lol ok
Like i said we might not see things the same way but you have EVERY right to be here !
by RED SOX are #1 in my heart on Dec 28, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
Yes , I do type like shit , sir .
I also would like to say ,I’m sorry for acting like a complete ass in the post , that I wrote before . I normally don’t have much to say , but I do come on here daily , as I normally find the banter on here quite amusing . I have no good excuse for why I reacted the way I did . I guess I’m just in a pissy mood , and forgot to take my maximum cramp relief meds . I am man enough to admit I was wrong , and offer my most sincere appologies .
Certainly Sean O would never apologize for offending you.
Frankly, we all say what we say, and we all know to take each other with a grain of salt.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
This.
Gotta say, unlike some of the other ghosts that came in here in September to cheer on our collapse, Sean O is here day in and day out. Sure, he’ll bitch about Beckett or poor performances, but there is never a doubt where his loyalty lies.
He wants the best team we can put on the field… unfortunately, I agree with him that we’re dancing around the real holes on this team (#4 & #5 SPs) and until we fill those, I share some negative sentiments.
And no one will ever accuse me of being constantly negative… I just don’t like what I’ve seen so far. Get me Oswalt and Maholm, and I’ll be the top cheerleader in the room. Or Kuroda and whomever… I want two more legit starters on this team before I’ll be happy again.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Whenever I read a SeanO post...
I look to the top of my browser mistakenly thinking I’ve opened the Globes website. His post are the opposite of why I started reading otm. I am surprised he hasn’t been reeled in by the mods, really dragging this site down.
by JonnyJumpUp on Dec 28, 2011 6:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He's jonnyjumpup
…it says right there.
by Dale Sams on Dec 28, 2011 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That guy's CRAY-ZEEEEE
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
He's right, you are a troll
The Red Sox are not going to lose all 162 games. They are not old. If Ellsbury regresses – and there is no reason to suspect this – there will be others that step forward. Bard or Aceves could turn into fine starting pitchers. Our minor leaguers may continue to develop and will be another year closer to the majors. We could reset the lux tax and be in great position to sign some stud pitchers next offseason.
by Z3rogs on Dec 28, 2011 6:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sorry, bud...
Sean is not a troll. He’s one of the most consistent posters in here. Maybe he’s a little harsh on moves he doesn’t like, but at least I’ve seen his screenname before.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
So Sox fans aren't allowed to be unhappy with moves the FO makes?
Besides signing Ortiz this FO hasn’t done anything to get me excited about the upcoming year. They’ve made so many sideways moves we’ve gone around the Earth once, haven’t accomplished a whole lot and spent several million of our limited budget to do so.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
It's fine to not be excited .
It is not fine to be a jerk about it , while raining on everyone elses parade .
Don't consider it to be jerkiness
Consider it to be extremely passionate unhappiness.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
The only move I've been even "okay" with aside from the Ortiz deal
Is signing Nick Punto. Nick. Fucking. Punto.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
I still want Lowrie back...
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I didn't really
but I do now that we have Bailey. I don’t like forcing Bard into the starter’s role.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
He breaks no rules.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
Tell him why he’s wrong or quit with the gas, is what I say.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I, for one, value his perspective.
I don’t agree with it, but it’s not like he doesn’t have some legit arguments.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I get that
But when somebody is responding to half the post in a thread with negative doom and gloom comments it makes it very difficult to sort through to the comments that actually had some different thoughts in it. I don’t need to hear “they have no hope” 12 times in one thread. I got it the first time. Yeah I don’t post a lot but am a long time reader but there are a lot of readers like me.
by JonnyJumpUp on Dec 28, 2011 8:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I know he doesn't. He just makes this site extremely unbearable for me to read.
Yes, I sometimes rage over what the Red Sox do, but to constantly hear it in every thread is unpleasant at best. If he only posted even a couple of times per thread I would still love to come and chat and discuss. But he’s also amazingly active, and fills the page with it. Just reading this thread, I feel like the entire thing is dictated by his thoughts and his negativity.
I’m not saying you should do anything or insulting him. I’m just saying that I used to love coming to this site because there were lots of opinions and discussions and i learned a lot and had fun doing it. I haven’t been on much recently, but if this thread is any indication, it isn’t somewhere I want to be anymore. And I’m sad that this has happened to a place that I used to love to be, but that’s how it is.
by ThePanda on Dec 28, 2011 8:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It's how it is now
We’ll be happy again discussing community projections and ripping each other for them in a couple months.
As long as Benjamin takes some time away from his tinkering and finds us the 2-3 starters we still need.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
100% agree
I value seans enthusiasm and whatever but the volume of his post in each thread all saying the same thing don’t add value and detract from other conversations. It seems the regulars manage to look past that but its becoming too much for myself and others as well.
by JonnyJumpUp on Dec 28, 2011 9:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Damn... there's a lot of us that do that.
TLD, Rogue Nine, and I’m loudly in the SIGN SOME STARTERS OMFG camp…
Hard to single out Sean O on that point.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Well...it's something.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
(Please tell me there are starters on the horizon)
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Honestly,
this won’t change anything about our SP acquisition, since in all likelihood Bard will not last as SP past early May (either career ending injury when his arm lands in the Fens, or how awful he’ll be). We really just lost our RF today, for no real gain.
We still need to dumpster dive for 3 or 4 SP.
This is my main concern with this deal.
We lost a potential bargaining chip for our main need. In a vacuum, I’d be alright with this trade, although I was looking forward to the further Chronicles of Reddick.
But now? Yeeeesh. I dunno, man.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I think they expect to get their rotation in FA
They wanted to build a strong foundation for the bullpen both for now and the future, while the rotation is going to be more a matter of short-term fixes since they don’t like the long-term or trade options there.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
If we get someone decent for the starting pitching
and reasonable cost/trade, then I certainly could look back at this as being a good trade. I just hope we get that, man.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Same here.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
"when his arm lands in the Fens"
At which point, him having only one arm will promptly also be ignored as a reason the should not be a starting pitcher.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 6:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ha ha ha ha...
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I just think Reddick was no great shakes.
So we could replace him with a Parra, or a Kalish, or some other cheap RF option. Still a few months to go.
This is my feeling.
I carried Reddick for a while on my fantasy team last year, but I just don’t love him. And I was scorching the earth over trading Lowrie. I feel like 2011 was as good as Reddick is going to get, so I feel like that was a sell high.
Of course, offsetting that was the “sell low” on Lowrie, but at least we have two good bullpen arms as the result.
As long as we get the SPs we need, I’ll be fine with this deal.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Not Kalish, obv
But if Parra is so obtainable, why did Beane just throw his closer at someone with lesser numbers?
He probably likes the young prospects
And still thinks Reddick has a chance to be a good regular. A belief that I imagine the Sox FO doesn’t share.
It's weird to me, though, since Beane values OBP...
… something Reddick’s career numbers suggest, umm… not his strong point.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Beane values undervalued players
OBP hasn’t been undervalued for 7 years.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
So, what is undervalued about Reddick?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Yet Sweeney also has a good reputation for defense...
… so??
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Reddick
Isn’t ARB eligible for a couple more years I think. Sweeney is ARB2.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
everything about Reddick is being undervalued
by all the people saying he’s only a fourth outfielder- 1.9 WAR in about a half season’s worth of at bats does not a fourth outfielder make.
Of course, his career will die along with his power in Oakland.
Which is another interesting point.
I doubt his spray charts look favorable in Oakland. Maybe a few more triples with his speed on balls hit into the gaps?
1.9 WAR, though, was related to that ridiculous hot streak before pitchers changed their approach to him. Who is to say he’ll ever do that again?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I want to look at something related to Reddick's discipline:
Discounting May, when he had 9 PAs
Line Drive % by month:
June: 30.8
July: 19.4
August: 21
Sept: 22.9
BABIP by month
June: .400
July: .333
August: .230
Sept: .319
To me, there’s two obvious outliers here. June, he was absurdly hot and everything reflects that. In August, he was hitting the ball hard and well and had absolutely nothing to show for it. Then, in September, he returned to swinging at everything, probably from frustration at not getting any hits anywhere. Obviously, you want plate discipline to be a constant, but I would argue that his struggles were more of a result of bad luck than pitchers making some sort or magical adjustment to him.
Well, that makes me root for a failed physical just a little more.
I really would be fine if the Bailey deal falls through, and we’ve signed a SP instead of a closer.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Not so sure Reddick is undervalued
Reddick was worth 0.9 fWAR in May/June, a period when he had only 42 PA. In July-September, Reddick was worth 1.0 fWAR (207 PA). Reddick’s fWAR is skewed by his defensive rating, something that is suspect due to sample size. Let’s not forget that Jed Lowrie was worth 1.9 fWAR in 2010, despite playing 32 fewer games than Reddick played in 2011.
Intangibles - a blend of chilled grapefruit, clean oak moss and spice
by Jeter Wears Perfume on Dec 29, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
Reddick's defensive rating is really only questionable
if you don’t think that he’s a very good defensive right fielder, which is not something that I question.
He looked good defensively
But 87 games is an extremely small sample.
Based on his age and minor league numbers, though, his bat doesn’t project to be anything special.
Intangibles - a blend of chilled grapefruit, clean oak moss and spice
by Jeter Wears Perfume on Dec 29, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
87 games is a small sample for UZR
But not for the eye. He is, and has been for a long time, been regarded as a very strong defensive player, a rocket arm with good range.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
And an average, at best, bat
Meaning, Reddick = Coco Crisp.
Intangibles - a blend of chilled grapefruit, clean oak moss and spice
by Jeter Wears Perfume on Dec 29, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
I'd be happy with a young, cost-controlled Coco Crisp with more power on my team.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
I'd say that Reddick clearly has more power than Crisp
But it’s not like Crisp is a bad baseball player
Exactly.
Lot of love for Covelli.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Reddick might have more power
Remember, Crisp hit 31 HR with Cleveland in 2004-2005. In 2005, he also hit 42 doubles. Crisp was 26-years old when he came to Boston in 2006, a year older than Reddick will be next year.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 29, 2011 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
I mean, Crisp's career ISO is .130 and his highest for a year was .165
Reddick’s career number is .168, and he showed much more power in the minors.
The problem with that being...?
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I'd see Crisp as Reddick's ceiling
Coco plays CF. Right now, Reddick doesn’t.
But, corner OFs with no on-base skills (like Reddick) don’t have all that much value. I think the Sox sold high on Reddick. In my opinion, if the A’s are lucky Reddick will be another David Murphy (although I don’t think he’ll be as good).
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Dec 29, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
Because he wants players that have little to no major league experience.
So they can be a pretty good team if they ever move to San Jose.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 28, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
A's fans...
… were joking about Bailey being traded for the Sox “yes” vote on the move.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
HA HA HA HA!
Now that’s an awesome conspiracy theory… you know, I did expect Bailey to cost us quite a lot more.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I like it, I actually wanted the Sox to get Ryan Sweeney in the past until they got Crawford and Gonzo.
Hopefully Andrew Bailey stays healthy like others have said above as well.
"Remember, it's not over until the fat lady drops one."
To SeanO
Shut the fuck up
Sincerely,
Everyone who views this blog
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Dec 28, 2011 6:32 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Except me.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
And me.
Even though I completely disagree with his opinion of this trade.
Seans opinion is fine
He just doesn’t need to reply to every post in a thread with it.
Sure there’s a bunch of you defending him, and I agree with a lot of router points about him, but there is a bunch of people who can’t hardly stand otm anymore because of him. Like it or not that’s bad for the site.
by JonnyJumpUp on Dec 28, 2011 10:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
If he has an opinion on every post
he should absolutely reply to every post.
If he disagrees with your opinion, disagree back. This is a blog for intelligent, passionate debate. Sean says nothing inherently stupid (no matter how much I may disagree with it) and is clearly passionate.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Nothing inherently stupid
I’ll take that.
by Sean O on Dec 29, 2011 9:06 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
And me
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
And probably except Sean
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
He's Charged.
His name is right there. :P
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
by Bloggy on Dec 28, 2011 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Somebody who views you as a moron.
All you ever post is negativity. I bet when the team is winning games due to Bailey or due to Ells or due to Salty or due to the RF who gets the starting job, you will shut up and become a fan again.
I’d rather read Rev Halofan than the bullshit you spew
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Dec 28, 2011 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So your definition of fandom
Is blind allegiance to ‘the order’?
Sorry if some think a little more freely.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Did I say blind allegiance?
Was I on the OMG DONT LET TITO GO BCUZ HE HAS BEEN HERE WHEN WE WON A SERIES? No
Have there been trades I don’t approve of? Sure.
But thats different from whining about any little move. Why don’t you become the GM SeanO so I can laugh as you run the team straight into the floor?
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
Well you're actively calling him not a fan
On the grounds that he dislikes a trade because it fills a need we shouldn’t have had in the first place and spends another $5M of the money we by all appearances do not have.
There is plenty to dislike here, and disliking =! lack of fandom.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Not on the grounds of one trade
On the grounds of all he ever does is cry about every little move. I bet if we signed Madson, he would have cried. Or if Bard was the closer and sucked, he would have cried. Or if Melancon was the closer, he would have cried. Or if Paps stayed, it would have been WHY DID WE PAY SO MUCH FOR HIM?
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
Probably
BECAUSE NONE OF THEM ARE STARTING PITCHERS.
Sean’s mad, like me, because he doesn’t give two craps about the bullpen. If they just left Bard there all they had to do was sign a guy who was alright, and then toss in our upper level pitching prospects and the pen is fine AND cheap and we could pay attention to our actual need, signing at minimum three guys who can start games for us since we have no starting pitching depth.
Instead they’re going with Bard for Starter, a plan which has no possible success rate to attach to it, all I know about Bard is that he’s a great reliever at 100 MPH and struggles when he hits 60 innings. I can’t say how he’s going to be at 94-05 MPH and over 100 innings. But that’s the basket the FO is appearing to be putting a lot of eggs into and spending their money on a bullpen, which can only hope to succeed if he have good starters.
So yeah, there is plenty to be upset about with how this offseason has been handled so far.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Oh sorry...
I forgot that Kuroda and Oswalt and Jackson and couple other good remaining starters aren’t on the market anymore.
And I also forgot that every closer turned starter is a failure. Boy, the Angels are in for a treat when they find out CJ Wilson has been a hologram this whole time!
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
They're on the market
Do we have the money?
So far we’ve spent money on two bullpen arms, nick punto, and a third string C.
So far
We have saved money that would have went to madson by getting a more effective, cheaper closer. We have gotten a reliever who is under team control for what.. 4-5 years for peanuts.. We got a solid utility player who WONT be injured all year like Lowrie, and we got a sub par catcher who can be there incase salty gets injured.
You’re totally right though, you’re right about everything.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
Whoa whoa whoa
Where did Bailey OR Madson come from? Our pen was set before this, with Ace, Bard and Melatonin. Madson was never a need, which is why it’s good Paps and Madson won’t be on the team.
Doesn’t make throwing away our RF and making a pitcher with a historically-bad history as a starter a starter.
You really expected Bard to become a closer?
Don’t act like you wouldn’t have cried about that too.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
Actually, I think most of us did coming into this year.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
As did I, until the last 2 months of the season
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
I still do
But I can see how the starter thing would work. I just have to believe the Sox have the info I do not: can Bard’s changeup work, and will his arm hold up?
People seem to assume not because of how badly things went in High-A, but it’s been a long time since then.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
I have my concerns about Bard, I do
But I think Melatonin/Bard in the 9th is strong. Bard is a closer-in-waiting, and while I had concerns, not enough to keep him from the role. Especially if we marshalled our resources intelligently otherwise.
Yup, that's what I wanted.
If you take a look at any basic analysis of the closer role over the last few years, it’s become the “Moneyball” inefficiency in the game.
Teams that employ a cheap closer get as many saves as the Yankees paying for Mariano; and they don’t end up with their hands being tied when Brad Lidge has a mental meltdown. Cheap closers are the way to go, and thankfully… at least Bailey is cheap.
However, another $5 million tied up make it a hell of a lot harder to sign Kuroda/Oswalt/Jackson and get at least two or three SPs into the fold.
So, hence, a lot of us aren’t happy with the direction taken so far. If we sign two quality SPs and a bunch of retreads to throw at the wall and see what sticks? Sure, I’ll start singing another tune.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
OK
But we have almost nothing to sign them with because we just spent it all on tinkering moves.
There are a couple relievers that get converted successfully. But most relievers are relievers because they don’t have what it takes to be a starter. There is a reason why Wilson and whosiewhatsie in Chicago are the only two I can think of off the top of my head that have been successes in the last few years.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
no possible success rate?
except for the data in Marcs post about the rule of 17 and how you can expect relievers to perform as starters.
OK, what is the success rate?
You simply have a ratio that projects how he MAY do given what other relievers have done before.
What percentage do you place on him ACTUALLY doing it?
That’s what I’m talking about. You can project how they may do, but you don’t know if they’re actually going to do it. I don’t think Bard will actually do it. He’s had mechanics issues in the past I don’t think he’s going to be effective when he has to reduce his velocity by 5 MPH to avoid throwing his arm out when he passes his usually innings mark in May rather than September.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
this point has been debated back in forth
and i dont want to rehash it. you can point to his mechanics a couple years ago. i can point to cj wilson and ogando. the point is we have a projection and you cant say for certain that he’ll underperform them and i cant say for certain that he’ll outperform them. either way… its hard to evaluate the trade because we need the other shoes to drop. if they dont get another sp? ya i wouldnt like the deal. but there are still FA’s and trade candidates and reddick is a nice piece but not irreplaceable by any means
the point is we have a projection and you cant say for certain that he’ll underperform them and i cant say for certain that he’ll outperform them
Which is EXACTLY why I said:
a plan which has no possible success rate to attach to it
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Sadly, Rogue... you're wrong on this one.
It has a possible success rate, which is higher than none.
You know… someone in here pointed out Derek Lowe as another example… so, let’s look at him since we’ve hashed the CJ Wilson/Ogando to death.
Lowe was long relief/starter/closer in 1998. 63 games, 10 starts, 4 saves. In 1999, he pitched in 74 games, finished 32 and saved 15. In 2000, he pitched in 74, finished 64, saved 42. In 2001, he pitched in 67, finished 50, saved 24 and started only 3. So, over 4 seasons, he started 13 games, saved 85 and was throwing about 90 innings each in the last two of those.
When we stretched him out as a SP for the 2002 season? He went 21-8. 2003? 17-7. 2004? 14-12, but if I remember correctly, he won the decisive game in all three rounds of the playoffs on our way to the first World Series in 86 years.
I don’t know… I think Bard as a SP might have a better success rate than you think. Lowe had never started more than 10 games in a season before 2002, and won 21 that year.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Here's the thing.
I’m uncomfortable using Lowe and CJ as these great comparisons because they were brought along as starters in the first place. Lowe started 129/134 minor league games. Wilson 70/95, Bard 22/79.
I think you all are misunderstanding what I’m saying, I’m NOT saying it has a 0% chance, I’m saying you can’t tell me what the % chance is to put on it. Flipping a coin you can at least say 50/50, but what is it for Bard? Is it 75%? 10%? With a starter with history you can feel relatively certain with the rate at which they will succeed, with converting a reliever who was largely brought along as a reliever what can you say it will be?
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Splicing this to say "to attach to it" now ignores everything else you've said to date.
You have been saying this has no chance of success, though.
I think there is a chance. Maybe it’s a small chance of success… I’d agree with you there. Hard to project what chance it has. I think it may end up being Aceves as the #5, since I think that comparison to Lowe/Wilson is a better one.
However, one of Bard/Aceves will end up shoring up what is already a very good bullpen, and the other has a chance of success as our #5 SP.
You have, in fact, been saying over and over and over again that Bard will not be successful as a starter.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I've never said I think this has no chance of success
I’ve repeatedly said I think it’s a bad idea because of the way it ties up revenue and shifts focus from the rotation to the pen, also because I think it won’t be successful. (there is a billion-ish comment back and forth between me and aubatron about this on some previous post).
But that’s different from saying there is no chance it’ll actually work. I think there is some slim chance it’ll work and if it does, it validates these other moves. I never say ‘when’ bard fails, it’s always ‘if’ Bard fails. I purposely try to not be that absolute.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
payroll rather than revenue.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
The "to attach to it"
Is the part you’re not reading, “no possible success rate” is what you’re all keying in on and it is NOT my point.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Elsewhere you've been saying Bard won't be successful as a SP.
Now you’re starting to split hairs on the “attach” a success rate.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I meant my sentence exactly the way I typed it
Not the way in which it’s been misread in regard to previous comments which are being put in my mouth.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I cannot find any fault with this post.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Dec 28, 2011 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
Was I on the OMG DONT LET TITO GO BCUZ HE HAS BEEN HERE WHEN WE WON A SERIES?
I don’t know, were you? You claim you weren’t, but I sure as hell haven’t seen you before. I know Sean, I know his opinions, and I know he’s fairly consistent with them. You are an unknown, a nothing, a random face in the crowd. We don’t know you, and you’re attacking one of our own. Seems like a good way to make friends.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
*GASP* A dissenter! Alert Supreme Leader Lucchino! He must be surpressed!
Devotion and Loyalty are the Only Ways to Be.
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
The fact that you have to say
“The RF who gets the job” goes to show how right I am about this trade.
Yes because Reddick looked so amazing last year didn't he?
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
I remember a time when we all thought Reddick would amount to nothing until we let him play some MLB ball...
Hmmm…
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
Try telling that to Sean O
Apparently, he viewed him as Cargo or something
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
He probably thought Lowrie was the second coming of Cal Ripkin or something aswell
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
The fact that you made this post proves you know nothing.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
This is your reasoning for totally disregarding Kalish as a RF option?
Sad
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Dec 28, 2011 8:32 PM EST up reply actions
He is made of glass.
I’ve been following Kalish since I saw him belt two homers in Lowell, but he is constantly injured. He cannot be relied upon for anything other than a 60 day DL slot.
2000 OTM comments and I have no idea who you are.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Charged was around a lot a year or two back.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
Apologies for the profanity
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
Or me.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 6:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Or me.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 6:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
What about you?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
For starters, I need to get a better phone
I was not co-signing Charged sentiments.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 6:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You certainly don't speak for many folks here.
A Julio Lugo quote about Yankee Stadium?
Frankly, I’m tempted to suggest…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
What is it?
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
He is allowed to express whatever views he would like.
If you dont like his opinions, have some guts and challenge his claims or just ignore him. Either way the guy should not get this much crap for offering an opposing view point, but lets be honest anyone who doesnt drink the cool aid is not really part of the blog? Right?
you too my friend
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
I thought this was a great deal for the Red Sox. Someone convince me I’m wrong, please?
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
I like it.
I think the contention is generally
A) How good will Bailey be outside of the Colosseum and
B) How replaceable is Reddick in RF?
And C) Where is the starting pitching?
Really, for me, the only issue is C.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
A closer is useless
if we don’t have starting pitching to give him something to close.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Agreed.
That’s why I’m still in the “nervous” category.
Plus, since I’m firmly in the “Bard should not start” camp, I don’t like that this makes things look like he being more cemented into that position.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
They didn’t exactly trade away prospects that are necessarily needed to acquire a SP, though.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
And thats why I don't see how anyone can be up in arms about this
We gave up next to nothing. A 3b who was going to be blocked by WMB if he ever did anything, a starter who is still in A ball and is a crap shoot, and a 4th OF candidate who proved that his hitting is streaky and is his mediocre at best.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
Correction on Head
I forgot he has played like sub 20 games at 3rd. He was going to be blocked by A-Gonz anyways.
I mean I could have sworn Paps was #2 on your guys list of things that need to be done after resigning Papi, but now that we get probably the best candidate after him, you are all mad about it? There is no pleasing you.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
A lot of people think this confirms Bard moving to the starting rotation, which a lot of people don't like.
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
And how do you guys figure that?
I mean wasn’t Derek Lowe not bad as a closer converted starter? He may not have been Cy Young himself, but all we are asking for is a solid #4 or #5.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
by Charged on Dec 28, 2011 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Now that's an example I hadn't seen mentioned before.
This, rather than randomly blasting Sean, is a much more effective approach to this situation.
Especially since a lot of us have never seen you in here before.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I dug into this a little more above.
Derek Lowe is a great example of a successful transition.
Good point.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Kalish?
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
In before "Hahahahahaha"
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
As of now it would probably be
Sweeney/Aviles
a grouping that could cover the 109 OPS+ that Reddick managed last year although the defense might take a downswing
Well I think Reddick might have been a piece.
We don’t have a lot to trade that is young and MLB ready, Reddick was one of the few position players that met those requirements. I’d have to assume that this makes Kalish untouchable.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Why are neither Salty/Lavarnway available? Though I don’t think Salty would be worth much.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Lavarnway because, if he can stick behind the plate, he's worth more than we'll get for him.
Salty because we’re not convinced he can, and can’t find another option.
We still have the prospects necessary. Just a question of finding the right match.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
Prospect depth has to be a concern, yes? I see the concerns with the trade now, but if the Red Sox do get that starter, it becomes a great deal.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
It's a consideration, but not a concern.
Head and Alcantara don’t really hurt the system that much. The only guys who would are Lavarnway/Middlebrooks/Bogaerts. Otherwise the lower levels are ridiculously stocked with solid talent.
Still, I don’t like the starters available for trades.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
I'd much rather we pick up a couple FAs for SPs.
As long as we do that (preferrably somewhat soon), I’ll be looking forward to pitchers and catchers reporting!
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Isn;t there no money or something?
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
There's probably enough for one starter.
We’re not actually getting to the point of profit/loss yet. Just cutting further into profit margins than they’d like. But the Sox have acknowledged they’re going over the tax this year, so it’s all a matter of what Ben can sell to Henry and co.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
This team is useless
…if I don’t see some of the clubhouse issues fixed. I still haven’t seen enough accountability nor do I have any reason to believe Beckett, Buchholz, and Youk won’t hit the DL next year.
…I have no math to back up the above.
I think the collapse and the critisism they have received
from it will fix a lot of the issues. I believe all of them will come into ST pissed off and in shape. Not to mention the players will not be taking advantage of a laid back Tito anymore. I think (hope) they will be fine.
You won't "see" the clubhouse fixed
Not saying it won’t happen, I’m saying how are they going to “prove” this to you? The only reason we thought there was clubhouse problems was because they lost. If they win, noone will really give a crap about “clubhouse issues”. Noone did last year until the end of September. So if they win, does that prove the issues are fixed? Because I don’t really care if Beckett wants to have a beer if they win.
You don’t have math to back that up because there is none that exists. It is not an obversable thing for the fanbase as a whole. Same thing with DL stints. There is no math to prove that they will or won’t hit the DL, just the same as with Ellsbury, Gonzo, Pedey, etc. Unless they show up to Spring Training 50 pounds overweight, there is no way to “prove” they are more likely to get injured. Seriously, what can those three guys do to make you believe they won’t hit the DL next year.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 29, 2011 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
Right... with friends that played in the Majors...
… this kind of stuff goes on in every clubhouse.
I mean, Clemens wasn’t even in the clubhouse in his off days (and I don’t mean in his ‘roid days in Toronto/New York/Houston where he had that special deal… I mean, 1986… in Boston… he wasn’t generally around on the days he wasn’t pitching).
It only became a story to try to explain our September collapse. Otherwise, it’s a total non-story.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Like I said above
In a vacuum, it’s a great deal, a closer and OF under team control for a player who’s future is uncertain and a couple C+/B- prospects who have high ceilings but a lot of questions.
In any other year I would probably be applauding the trade.
But this year we have a very tight budget from all appearances, little in the way of upper level prospect capital, and the bullpen is only a need because we’re making it so with this Bard experiment. This trade seems to indicate that they’re going forward with Bard as a starter and that isn’t a move I support.
We now have about $4.5M less to spend and gave up one of our better upper-level trade pieces, less to use on a starter. Any other year this trade isn’t a big one really, this year for this team, it’s quite big and implies quite a lot that I personally don’t like.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Wouldn't be a thread on OTM without a bunch of bitching.
We got a closer for a guy who was never going to be an everyday right fielder and a few low level prospects who we have no idea how they will turn out.
My Twitter @totheights
Forgetting the at minimum $5M bump in payroll...
And what this means for Bard.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
That's less than we would have paid for Madson or a decent starter.
The thing here is that everyone hates Bard to the rotation. Which I think is something we can’t really judge without better knowledge of his physical strength and the change.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
I think it’s a lot of eggs in a basket with questionable physical strength and mechanics at lower MPH. This team has a huge need at SP and I’m not comfortable with a grand experiment to try and fill the hole.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
But what if that grand experiment is at #5 instead of #4, with Kuroda or Maholm taking the latter spot.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
We'll still need 50-80 innings from elsewhere
and more if he sucks and goes back into the pen.
Getting Kuroda is pretty much my dream at this point. But do we have the money? This extra $4.5M we just spent puts us right at the tax limit right?
I see people tossing out Kuroda for a 1 year deal, but how likely is that? I feel he’s done enough in his career to get some security and big money.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Sox have acknowledged they're going over the tax threshold this year.
Who knows about Kuroda? Could be one, could be two, could be Maholm, could be someone else. The point is they’re not done.
As for those other innings, we ALWAYS end up needing those for one reason or another.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
Still... if we always need those innings for one reason or another...
… is it really a great idea to bank on needing them as we stretch Bard out?
Or is Bard really seen as the 120 innings we need to get to Dice K’s return from the DL? Is that the corresponding situation here? Dice K finishes the season Bard starts?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I think it's more likely
That we get a spot start from Ace, a spot start from Doubront, etc.
Maybe work in some Alex Wilson if he starts strong.Tazawa. Etc.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
Don't you think that would be banking a lot on him coming back healthy ?
by RED SOX are #1 in my heart on Dec 28, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
Not really.
Considering the recent track record on pitchers coming back from Tommy John…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
We always need it
But now we may need to double our expected number of innings needed to have covered by someone else who isn’t typically on the 25 man to start, which warrants more than someone we can stash in AAA.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
And, at this point, it looks like Bard will be the #5.
So, Oswalt or someone else for the four, and some depth down in AAA, and I might start thinking positively.
I have to admit… I wanted Bard to close, but it appears his bullpen spot is taken now (Jenks/Melancon/Bailey… with hopefully Aceves back out there and not a Bard/Aceves 4/5 next spring)… I just hope his move to the rotation pans out.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
We had no RF before this deal
Reddick is nothing special.
by Z3rogs on Dec 28, 2011 7:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I liked Reddick, and don't see
why we should give up on a 24 year old RF who has handled the position in a half year of play. Especially with no in-house alternative.
He had a great couple of weeks
Then disappeared. He has only ever shown flashes. He owns a career OPS under .800 in AA and AAA. I will be surprised if he ever has an .800 OPS in a full season in the majors.
by Z3rogs on Dec 28, 2011 7:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don't HATE the deal..
…and I hope Lowrie and Reddick make a bunch of people cry ‘Why can’t we get guys like that?’
but like some said, it just seems like a bunch of sideways moves. I think the value of streaky talent like Reddick and Lowrie is underrated. Would you rather have a guy who might give you two months of All-Star ball, or a guy you KNOW will suck like Punto or Sweeney?
Free agent right fielders
Courtesy of the MLBTR free agent tracker:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012-mlb-free-agents
Rick Ankiel
Yoenis Cespedes
Coco Crisp
J.D. Drew
Ross Gload
Kosuke Fukudome
Scott Hairston
Willie Harris
Brad Hawpe
Eric Hinske
Conor Jackson
Andruw Jones
Ryan Ludwick
Xavier Nady
Magglio Ordonez
Corey Patterson
Cody Ross
Ryan Spilborghs
Make of that what you will
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 6:54 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I'd be open to Hinske (I love him for some reason), Spilborghs, Ross, Nady, Hawpe, Crisp, Ankiel and certainly Cespedes.
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 6:58 PM EST up reply actions
JD Drew is available!
Jones. Probably about all we can afford.
AND THEN SIGN STARTING PITCHERS.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
if he doesn't want to retire
he could still work as a bench bat
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 7:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hopefully Crisp can make a comeback. Solid defensive outfield that would be.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
Nobody likes Cody Ross?
He did have a pretty amazing playoff run. Not that it matters much, but the guy was clutch 2 years ago. Cant teach that.
he wants multiple years
otherwise one year 1.5mm sure
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Drew isn't officially retired yet?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Like I posted further up in the thread
Someone will give him a spring training invite, and after he does nothing there he’ll retire, a-la Brad Wilkerson in 2008.
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
But I thought he'd essentially announced he wasn't coming back after 2011...
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Yeah, a whole article was written in 2011...
… about his faith, and goal to move on after his career (maybe be a missionary??). Essentially, the idea was that if he didn’t play for the Sox in 2012, he probably couldn’t be coaxed out of retiring…
It was a scenario kicked around for a while about whether Reddick would pan out, or Kalish recover by 2012. We might be able to get Drew to take one more year, but even that seemed like a long shot. The article implied that he was ready to retire.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
The derp is exceptionally strong tonight
Regarding the Bard “OMG HIS ARM WILL FALL OFF WTF”, the team’s plan has not changed unless I somehow misread the news the last 2 freaking months. He will try starting in ST. If he does well, they will make a final decision from there. If he bombs, back to the bullpen. Nothing has been finalized.
Regarding the trade: The prospects are irrelevant to the team’s future as mentioned above. Sweeney offers significantly superior defense and on-base ability than Reddick with 2 more years of team control. A guy with a consistent .350 OBP is far more valuable than a guy who lights the world on fire for 2 weeks then disappears for 2 months. Essentially Bailey was acquired for nothing besides his arb cost. If you’re going to harp on the home/road splits as an excuse to hate the trade, he’s thrown 173 innings in his entire MLB career. Small sample size.
Regarding the BLAAAARGH SIGN STARTERS OMFG: Consider for a second (hard to do, i know) that the agents for these pitchers know quite clearly that they have all the leverage in negotiating with a team such as the Red Sox/Yankees that are hungry for starters. Pitching is the commodity in demand and that translates to leverage to push for additional years and/or dollars. I would MUCH rather go without for one year, especially considering Bard’s potential upside as a starter is equal or higher than any available FA, than commit to a mediocre/high-risk starter for 2-3+ years at 20-30M+ simply because of panic 4 months before opening day.
Regarding this “Cherington is only moving sideways” crap, it’s called turning your low value assets into more valuable ones. You know, the kind of thing that helps baseball teams win.
"We’re the Sox. Not Apple Sox. We ain’t no Barbeque Sox. We’re the Red Sox.’’ - David Ortiz
by L33to II on Dec 28, 2011 7:04 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
Yeah, good thoughts...
… even if I’m one of the BLAAAARGH SIGN STARTERS OMFG: camp.
To be clear, if we sign one of these mediocre/high-risk starters for 2-3+ years and $20-30M+, that’s not what I’m looking for. Oswalt says he’ll take a one year deal to rebuild his market value for 2013. I say… what better place to do it than the AL East? If you can pitch here, you can pitch anywhere… so I want the one year, high reward options like that one.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Got a chuckle out of this.
I for one am interested to see how the Bard experiment works out, especially if it is as the #5 starter after signing Oswald or Kuroda to a one year deal as the #4 starter.
A chuckle in a good way.
Wanted to be clear on that lol.
Yeah, I'm becoming resigned/coming around to Bard as the #5.
I just want a real, honest to goodness #4. Maholm would do, but Oswalt on a one year deal, with a chip on his shoulder, trying to rebuild his value to get the three year deal he wanted this year for 2013-2015? Now I think that’s got a lot of chance for a big reward.
His 2011 injury was related to cleaning up from the hurricane… not pitching. He’s been a workhorse his whole career. I see lots of upside there. Sign him, and a bunch of retreads (Webb/Sheets/Harden??) for AAA and I’ll be stoked for 2012.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
You honestly think
Lester, questionable-health Beckett and Buchholz, then ???? is a starting rotation? This seals Bard’s fate.
But really
Before February, they could sign Oswalt and Maholm and everyone would be happy as a clam, or thereabouts.
Screw Oswalt
…he, Beckett, and Buchholz can share nurse stories while convalesing
Or, possibly...
… we could discover a treasure trove of super-pitching cyborgs while doing some routine construction in Fenway. Killer cyborgs with 128 mph fastballs and killer curveballs designed by Theo Cherrington Henry XV and sent from the far future to be buried in the distant past at the hour of the Sox’s greatest need. At that point, we can be totally stoked about the season. Until that point, the possibility that this will occur is just speculation.
My thought is that until we know what’s going to happen, it’s fine to doomsay based on what’s happened so far – which, to my mind, is less than encouraging.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 7:24 PM EST up reply actions
Wellllllllll
Not all speculation is created equal.
And I think it’s pretty silly to think that the FO is either oblivious to, or ok with, the fact that our current rotation is Beckett, Buchholz, Lester, Bard, and God knows what. Something will be added.
I suppose...
… and when it is, I’ll possibly feel differently. At the moment, the Sox-related trust-o-meter is heavily tilted towards massive incompetent frustrating failure of a mind-boggling and epic sort. See, e.g., September 2011.
I’m just not willing to extend any benefit of the doubt on the basis of recent returns.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
I want to... but September was killer.
And we honestly don’t know much about Ben.
I don’t really hate his moves so far, and if we get Oswalt/Maholm, I’ll probably come around. Just still nervous right now.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
September was like, a total collapse of all the players, though
I don’t know what the Front Office could have done about it, aside from getting another pitcher at the deadline (which they should have done).
Right.
I trusted the FO that built that team. I think September was a miserable combination of everything that could go wrong did. Yes, another SP at the deadline might have made the difference.
However, trusting the new guy? I haven’t seen the moves to justify the trust yet. If he makes them, or we win the World Series in 2012 with the team he builds, fine. But right now? No trust quite yet.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
then you might have a broken trust-o-meter
It’s supposed to come with a “how many months of offseason are left” detector, otherwise your readings get thrown off.
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 10:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, well...
… when you go into the workshed in early October to find that your favorite baseball team has dipped it’s collective members in rancid pigshit and repeatedly nonconsensually violated every aperture in your trust-o-meter before passing out drunk on wine coolers and fried chicken and lying there in its own filth and vomit – waking only briefly to demand eight dollars for another beer and a bottle of off-prescription painkillers – it makes an impression.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions
Nice imagery dude.
I’m impressed.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
They haven’t exactly built a whole lot of good will with the moves of the past 3 years.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Cherington should be judged on his merits, not Theo's.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with that.
But he was part of the previous system, which has not built any good will of late. And so, all moves deserve skepticism
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Fair enough
But I think this one passes muster if you separate it from the Bard move. The problem is nobody wants to, and so it becomes impossible to judge since the hatred of moving Bard is based largely on things we don’t actually know much about.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
If our starting situation becomes acceptable
this move becomes acceptable.
If our starting situation ends up a turd?
I’m upset.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
pretty much how I feel
When they traded for Melancon, I said I loved that move if he was the closer and hated it if they went out and got another closer. That was my initial reaction. After reflection, Bailey really didn’t cost a whole lot, so I can understand why they’d want to make the move. That said, if they don’t go out and get one good, quality starting arm (preferably Kuroda if he’s actually willing to come, because he’s probably the most likely to pitch 200 mostly good innings), then the team is screwed.
one thing no-one has mentioned
If Bard fails as a starter then we have three young, cost-controlled closer-capable arms in the pen. That is a huge mid-season trade chip
Good point.
Hadn’t thought about that.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Yes, I really want Lowrie back.
I mean, if we’re going to get Bailey, can’t we have Lowrie back and leave Ace/Bard in the bullpen instead of Melancon?
I mean, now that really feels like an overpay.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
We also need a right field solution that doesn't involve McDonald
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
So what's YOUR plan?
Tell us how you would improve the rotation given the current state of things.
by Z3rogs on Dec 28, 2011 7:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Dumpster dive and accept that we're finishing around .500
If our dumpster acquisitions do something, maybe we somehow win the wildcard.
do you think the bailey trade
has taken away our ability to sign FA starters?
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 7:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
$3.5M, Plus another $1M for Sweeney over what Reddick would have made
So yeah, I think this takes away from our ability to sign FA starters.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Only if you assume that we wouldn't have added a different closing option
Which we would have.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, sadly... this move is WAY better than paying for Madson.
On that, I definitely have to concur.
Much prefer this move to spending $10 million a year for Madson.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Right... I was assuming, as the rumor goes, that he's signing a one year deal.
Still would be $10 million that we need to spend on SP.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Which is a large part of my unhappiness with "the plan"
Bard should have been named closer and Melancon the only needed addition, with every last cent of available funds going into the rotation, sticking with the youth to fill in our positional roster needs, IE keep Lowrie, Reddick, and Lavarnway. With that we’d have what, $6 or $7 million to spend on the rotation than we do now with the moves we have made.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
hold on, that's not what I said
I asked if it takes away our ability to sign starting pitchers.
You’re saying it takes away “from” our ability to sign starting. Well, duh. $4.5MM in Bailey/Sweeney is $4.5MM we can’t commit to an SP. Which is trivially true. But we can still sign starting pitchers, and will.
If the worst thing about this trade is that we could have spent an extra $4.5MM in starting pitching over whatever it is we’ll going to pay for more starting pitching anyway, well, you’ve just convinced me this was a very good trade. And I was on the fence.
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 9:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The quality of starters is further reduced
Which impacts the quality of our pen. Andrew Bailey is only good when he can close games, 40% of our rotation is currently looking like it may not let him into the game. That is a problem.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
just so we're clear
You don’t actually dispute that we’ll be signing more starting pitching to fill that 40% hole. Which means that 40% hole is really a 0% hole.
So what are we left with? We’re left with the difference between $X and $X + $4.5MM worth of starting pitching. Do you believe this is an insurmountable problem? I don’t. Lots of guys who sign for nothing outperform their contracts. Lots of guys who sign for a lot underperform their contracts. We weren’t going to sign an ace no matter what we did. We were going to sign a couple back of the rotation pitchers.
The difference between $X and $X + $4.5MM is going to get washed away by statistical variability. So we’re probably looking at the same class of free agents we were looking at beforehand. And meanwhile our pen got better.
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 10:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
$4.5M goes a long way
To get a player who is more likely to perform to his contract than underperform. It’s why teams would rather have 5 Verlanders than 20 Colons.
The $4.5M DOES change the class of free agents we will be looking at, its the difference between Maholm/Saunders and Kevin Millwood. That is a huge difference in expected performance.
That 40% hole I mentioned is considering the starters we’re being reduced to consider. If we got a Kuroda, I’d consider the spot filled, with Bard, Aceves and these bargain bins you mention, I do not consider them adequately filled.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
The $4.5M DOES change the class of free agents we will be looking at, its the difference between Maholm/Saunders and Kevin Millwood. That is a huge difference in expected performance.
This is only true if the Sox are working with a hard cap.
They’re said to be in on Kuroda, so that should make it reasonably clear they’re willing to bring that kind of contract in. The price on a closer was already assumed. That Ben got one for $5 million instead of $10 is surely to his credit if we separate the Bard question.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 29, 2011 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
As long as we sign a Kuroda/Oswalt for $10 million, sure.
However, if Oswalt signs somewhere else for $10 million on a one year deal, and Kuroda ends up with the Yankees for $10 million a year, and then we sign some lower tier starter for $5 million… will anyone think that maybe the money we spent on closer cost us Oswalt/Kuroda?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Or
we could blame Liverpool
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Can you name a free agent pitcher who we can't sign now because of this trade?
I can’t. The only remaining free agent pitcher that’s outside the Red Sox price range in my judgment is Edwin Jackson. And I don’t get the sense we were after him before the deal either. If you can point one guy out on the MLBTR free agent tracker, I’m all ears.
So is that it, really? I’ve never been made into a supporter of a trade solely from reading the unconvincing arguments against it, but there’s a first time for everything I guess.
by dennet on Dec 29, 2011 10:29 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Impossible to name one without knowing the budget. But I for one believe there is a hard cap. This is an organization that has always had their number and stuck to it.
So before this deal we had X left to spend now we have X – $4.5M. I don’t know where that $4.5M reduces us down to, but I know it’s gone. So we may be down from a Kuroda to a Maholm now. Or the budget is really tight and we were at a Maholm and now we’re at a Millwood.
Either way, under my assumption of a hard cap, our ability to sign pitching is reduced.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
in other words you're just sort of bullshitting
by dennet on Dec 29, 2011 1:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
If you read that
And that’s the best response you can come up with, it doesn’t matter if I’m bullshitting or not because you ain’t listening anyway.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
by Rogue Nine on Dec 29, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
This sounds like the current plan
So why are you so upset?
by Z3rogs on Dec 28, 2011 7:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Because we have given up
what little money we have, and a RF, and some prospects, to fill holes that didn’t need filling. We are taking a huge risk on bard’s career for no reason whatsoever, and nothing in Ben’s time here shows that he has a grasp on the situation.
What if Bard succeeds as an SP?
Obviously you feel that the attempt is ridiculous. I disagree.
by Z3rogs on Dec 28, 2011 7:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'll be shocked, but happy
I fear it will finish off his arm, depriving us of a serious bullpen arm.
I'm glad to hear you're pulling for him
Was beginning to worry you would be hoping for him to fail just so you could be right.
’nuff said, cheers.
by Z3rogs on Dec 28, 2011 7:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No, for all his negativity...
… Sean wants the best Sox team, so if it works, he’ll be cheering with the rest of us.
Like when he had to acknowledge Beckett’s success around mid-year in 2011…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Believing we have no chance
And hoping for the opposite are well different. I just think we’re not a good team.
Aceves will be in the rotation and Dice-K will be back by All-Star
They do have arms, they just need 1 1/2 more arms for the rotation. Dice-K is coming back from Tommy John which usually means his arm will be better than prior to the injury and more durable.
...
Dice-K is coming back from Tommy John which usually means his arm will be better than prior to the injury and more durable.
I think this is a common misconception that even the doctors who invented the surgery don’t believe to be true.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 29, 2011 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
I like this post but
..you underestimate Reddicks defensive value. You’re basing it mostly on one month of DONTHITITTOMEISTIS that almost everyone caught.
[H]e’s thrown 173 innings in his entire MLB career
So, in other words, any proposition regarding his ability is based on infirm statistical grounds.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
Excellent post
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Dec 28, 2011 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
/sarcasm
oddly enough, I haven’t seen any lip service from Reddick or Lowrie about ‘How excited they are and hope to make an impact’
Athletics just have to wait for San Jose.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
la la la la la la la la la
Beane’s got lots of friends in San Jose la la la la la la la la la
You know that Crawford jersey I got for Xmas that I posted waaaay up the thread?
I’d love it if this was it:

via Boston Dirt Dogs
by Anthony Emerson on Dec 28, 2011 7:49 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I do not understand this
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Some guy in the old XFL had that name on the back of his jersey
I’m too young to remember why.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, Vinnie Mac
So many bad business ideas…
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
As I come back from my long absence, I make 3 points.
1. I like the bullpen. We didn’t give up much for Melancon or Bailey, as it should be. They’re relief pitchers.
2. We now don’t have a RF. I don’t consider Sweeney, McDonald, or Aviles options. Maybe Kalish could develop into a solid player, but he has little experience. However, there’s still time to address the problem.
3. The starting rotation is a bit concerning. Bard may or may not even stick in the rotation, and Beckett will probably suck because it’s an even numbered year. I wouldn’t get too worked up…yet, as they can still do something. Lester, Beckett, Buchholz has the potential to be pretty good, but they have to stay healthy and perform. Same goes for the rest of the team
2011 Overthemonster Fantasy Football Champion
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
bnb good to see you
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
I don't understand this at all
you had Bard ready to step in and be the closer, why do this?
As I stated in another post on here, Bard or Aceves, neither is likely to give you 200 innings, and we do not have the depth to replace them later in the season when they wear down. Buchholz still hasn’t reached 200 innings yet either. Nothing but question marks in the starting rotation.
I suppose if you get Kuroda its one less question mark, but seems like a waste of trade chips.
I did not care for Reddick, but he should have been used in a deal for a starting pitcher.
I actually like the Sweeney part of this if we can platoon him with Andruw Jones.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Maybe one of Bailey/Bard is now tradeable.
If Bard can’t cut it in the rotation, then he goes back to the pen or we try to get something in a deal built around Bard. Or we just keep Bard and then have Bard, Bailey, Melancon (in whatever order).
2011 Overthemonster Fantasy Football Champion
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Dec 28, 2011 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
congrats on your win I didn't know that was your team!
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
I think this trade will look better
after ST. I think they’ll still go out and get one legit starter, and then Bard, Aceves and a bunch of others compete for the 5th starter spot. My money to win that spot would go to Aceves, because I truly think he wants to be a starter, I think Bard’s willing to do whatever the team asks him to do. If Bard’s the setup guy, with Melancon and crew being in the 7th and Bailey being in the 9th, that bullpen would be very good.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 28, 2011 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
If Bard doesn't make it as a starter
They just spent a lot of money (relative to our budget) on a player we didn’t even need because they tried to play games with what should have been their closer.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
But if Bard's the setup guy.
The Bullpen is stronger. You keep assuming they have a hard cap, which they have not officially said. What they have said is they want to try and stay as close to the Luxury Tax threshold as possible, whether that’s below it or slightly above it, we really don’t know, only they truly know. Would you rather have them spend a lot of money on a SP or a RP? I’d prefer they’re biggest expenditure to be on a SP, and have the fifth starter be a pitcher that keeps the team in the game, not has to win the Cy Young.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 29, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
A stronger bullpen, backing up a whack rotation
…isn’t going to be all that good in the end when they have $4.5M less value of starting pitchers to back up. We had a good pen last year, you wouldn’t know it because they fell apart when they had to cover for too many bad starts.
I think they have a hard cap because they’re the sort of owners that have always had one. , we’ve just never been this close to it with $20-something million already tied up on the disabled list going into a season. They’re going over the tax threshold, they have to if they want to assemble even a remotely acceptable rotation, but I do think they know exactly how much dead weight they want to carry in payroll.
If Bard fails as a starter, they’ve strengthened the bullpen too much relative to what they needed, a stronger rotation.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
But if they bolster their rotation before he fails,
which will probably happen, him failing will only strengthen the bullpen more. If they role into ST with a true #4 starter, which I think they will, and have a competition for the 5th spot with guys like Bard, Aceves, Doubront, and others, and the best of the group takes the 5th spot at the beginning of the season, it’s really no skin off their back because they have 4 starters that are pretty good, and the 5 spot is just like every other team in baseball-a huge question mark.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 29, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
The extra money
That we just spent on Bailey, could improve that 5 spot from a huge question mark to one of much more relative certainty and the pen would still be very good.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
The bullpen is always the most volatile spot on a team.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 29, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
That doesn't really help your argument since we just traded for two relievers.
One of whom is coming off the worst season of his career.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
But every body who's saying it's going to be good, can't say that becasue you don't know.
My point all along is that they have said they want to try Bard and others as SP in ST, whoeever fails goes into the bullpen or down to the minors. I do think they will get one SP that will bolster the rotation before ST, so the one who fails between Bard and Aveves goes into the bullpen and can solidify it further, that’s why I don’t think these moves have that bad.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 29, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
So when Bard fails as a starter in ST, and we haven't signed a backup #5, what happens?
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
That's where Aceves or anybody else they invite to camp comes in.
If they think one of theose guy’s can fill in and give the best chance to win, they’ll put him in the 5 spot.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 29, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
So we're moving our one ultra-reliabe, super-durable bullpen arm to the rotation when our not-durable bullpen arm fails.
Seems good.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
I think Tazawa and Doubront get the call before Aceves does if it's a long term thing
really, with Bailey and Melancon in there, our bullpen would still be pretty good without Aceves. I’d be more concerned about Aceves being awful as a starter than about the pen in that situation.
I
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
I'm operating under the assumption that Bailey and Melancon will:
A) Immediately start to suck (Crawford)
B) Be injured and ineffective (Jenks, Cameron)
C) Have a nagging injury that lets them play, but not quite as well as we would have hoped (Adrian)
D) All of the above (Lackey)
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
well that sounds like rather an unpleasant outlook
oh and um. What did you expect from Adrian? .338/.410/.548 was disappointing? He’s a good hitter, not Ted Williams.
It wasn't disappointing
Adrian was awesome last year, but I think his shoulder is still bothering him, which is why he didn’t break 30 home runs for the first time in five years.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
I mean, you would think that with the lineup he was in
we’d be looking at 35 home runs, not 27. I’m not saying he was bad last year, he posted his best wOBA for his career. It could just be reasonably expected that he would do even better if he were fully healthy.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
If Bailey and Melancon go on and
only post the best year of their career’s by a little bit because their fingers have ouchie little blisters on them, I’m OK with that.
2011 wasn't the best year of Adrian's career.
And I would attribute a lot of his success to Fenway. If Bailey and Melancon post worse numbers than expected and have nagging blister problems I’m gonna be a bit irritated since we didn’t need them anyway.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 30, 2011 2:06 AM EST up reply actions
Which year was better?
as far as slash-line goes, it’s a tick or two above his 40 home run year. None of the others really are even that close.
I just think that if you genuinely thought that Adrian’s season was disappointing, you may have some slightly unrealistic expectations
I think there's a difference between "disappointed" and "we realistically could have expected better"
As he acknowledged at the end of the year, his shoulder was still bothering him, we could realistically expect between 5-10 more home runs next year.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 30, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
And this is the glass half-full side of this...
I’ve started saying this a bit lately… Gonzo was an MVP candidate in 2011, without the power we all hoped his spray chart would carry in Fenway.
However, I think it is reasonable to expect that another year of rehab/conditioning on that shoulder will give us some hope that we see more of that power in 2012.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Aceves isnt't going to be the only one they will also try.
They have Dubront, Tazawa, Duckworth, and they’ll probably add a injured starter or two on a minor league deals and determine who they think is the best of the group.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 29, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Which is why the dumbest thing you can do is spend on it.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Considering the 2011 #5 was Wakefield?
Yeah, probably Bard or Aceves will be better than that.
All we need now is a #4 that’s better than… um… Lackey? Wait, suddenly our rotation looks really really good!
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Being better than Lackey is a little tricky
Everything about Lackey screams terrible, except one thing. He was 12-12. It won’t be hard to beat his stats at all, however, the offense mitigated a lot of his suck and gave him good performances. Whomever we get for the 4 spot has to be significantly better, or have good timing with Red Sox offensive peaks.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I disagree.
Lackey went 12-12 DESPITE posting the worst stats of any SP in Red Sox history.
6.41 ERA, 1.619 WHIP, 11.4 H/9, 3.2 BB/9, 6.1 K/9, 1.93 K/BB, 114 ER, 19 HBP, 11 WPs, 66 ERA+, 203 hits allowed in 160 IP… I mean, epic failure as a SP.
However, he still won 12 games because he pitched in front of the best offense in baseball. Seriously, that kind of pitching will not be hard to improve on, and likely an improvement on that performance wins us a lot more than one more game in 2012.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Certainly
But the goal is to replace his RESULTS. His results were 12-12, which was built on the back of a lot of good luck with the offense. Everything else about the performance is easily beaten, but 12-12 is what we’re trying to replace, not 6.41 ERA, getting someone with a better ERA is a way to go about that, but not a guarantee to actually do it.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
This trade looks good
If Bard succeeds as starter.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Which is like, the Everest of Ifs.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
I fully expect him to fail
but he’s gonna end up hurt if he’s still starting in July.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
You guy see my post on the last guy the Sox did this with?
It’s up above… but Derek Lowe was in the bullpen for 4 years, our closer for two of those, and had never started more than 10 games in a season before we converted him to a full time piece of our rotation in 2002.
He won 21 games that year, and 17 in 2003.
I mean, there is some history of success to doing this… it goes further back than CJ Wilson. At this point, as long as we get a solid #4, I’m fine with this move.
I mean, after all… if you want to argue that Bard doesn’t fit the mold of Derek Lowe, I’d argue that Aceves probably does. Part time starter, long relief, with the stuff to go through the line up more than once. And we only need one of Bard/Aceves to succeed as the #5, with the other making our bullpen that much stronger.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Again, Lowe was a minor league starter, converted reliever, converted starter
Wilson was the same.
Bard is a minor league reliever, major league reliever, converted starter.
How they did has relatively little impact on how we may expect Bard to because they are different cases altogether.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
And the final piece of my argument was?
“I mean, after all… if you want to argue that Bard doesn’t fit the mold of Derek Lowe, I’d argue that Aceves probably does. Part time starter, long relief, with the stuff to go through the line up more than once. And we only need one of Bard/Aceves to succeed as the #5, with the other making our bullpen that much stronger.”
However, Bard was a starter in college, so there is some history there. He was a starter in his first season, but the Sox tinkered with his mechanics. Who is to say he cannot successfully start with his pitch repertoire and original mechanics?
I say, sign Oswalt at #4 to replace Lackey’s horrible 2011, and we’ll have such an improved rotation the #5 spot won’t even matter that much.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
And Lowe is perfectly fine in regards to Aceves
(Even though we’ve seen Aceves start and everything about his peripherals scares me).
Lowe however is a big part of your response to Bard and it stands that he is not a great comparison.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Still, I'd argue that after 4 years as a reliever...
… and never more than 10 starts in a season at the Major League level, Lowe was more releiver than starter when he was converted.
And he won 21 games, and 38 over the first two years as a full time starter.
We don’t need Bard to be that successful for his transition to starter to be considered a success.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
He spent nearly his entire development
Learning how to mix pitches and speeds. Bard learned how to do reliever things. Lowe already knew the mechanics necessary to change back to when he stopped being a reliever and knew the rigors of over a hundred innings a year. Bard hasn’t started since his mechanics were changed, so he has nothing to go back to.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
According to Ben (per MLBTR)
Our current RF options are, as being considered by the team, Sweeney, Aviles and D-Mac.
I am not making this up.
That means nothing, though
Just trying to get a bit more leverage with trades/FA signings.
All GMs say they’re happy with the team they have, and then they go out and sign someone new.
Pretty gruesome
But I would actually take a Sweeney/DMac platoon as a viable option, though not a desirable one.
Why Not Sweeney/Aviles?
Since Aviles is not-miserable against lefties. Defense is going to suck no matter who we put out there now.
If you were the GM in this league
Would you tell the media what your plans were for the season? Explain in detail how you were going to make a blockbuster trade or make a major run at a Cuban right fielder?
Why do you waste time with this crap?
Looks like I have a stalker, how adorable
As of this moment, that is a really terrible selection for possibly the hardest OF position in baseball.
You don't see Crawford sliding over and fitting that spot?
Since when is RF the hardest spot in bb – or are you specifically referring to Fenway RF
Not stalking – but you sure are bitching a lot about a scrub trade.
Crawford has no arm, and cannot hit
I don’t think making him go, against his will, to a completely new position is going to benefit anyone.
Fenway RF is roughly the size of the moon, only with weird angles everywhere.
This seals Bard to the rotation, which is probably top 3 in the worst decisions we could make.
Last year's OPS+:
Crawford: 85
Reddick: 109
Last year’s salary:
Crawford: $14,857,142
Reddick: $400,000
Salary is spent money and irrelevant
Do I wish I could go back in time and undo the Crawford signing? Sure – but not as much as I wish I could undo the Lackey signing which I wasn’t fond of when it happened.
None of this matters when it comes to what they can do now going forward.
Crawford had a down year, agreed. Reddick played half a year, had a hot streak early and completely faded down the stretch.
Crawford still had more home runs last year than Reddick has in his career. Crawford had 50 fewer hits last year than he’s had in any of his previous 7 (exception – his injured 2008 season).
Last year was an anomaly. He’s still over-played. But that doesn’t mean he can’t hit.
There is zero indication that he can hit
But I hope I’m wrong.
Reddick was cheap and performed well, offensively and defensively, last season. We are left with players who would struggle to be fourth outfielders on bad teams. This is ridiculous for a team that (supposedly) has playoff aspirations.
There are years of indication that he can hit.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
There was zero indication at any point last season
That he had any of his previous ability. No prolonged hot streak, no particularly ridiculous statistical outliers, just terrible baseball.
How long does the hot streak have to be?
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
And for the record, using that logic you can't say Jacoby Ellsbury is going to be anything beneath an MVP-level player.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
Depends on whether you think
playing at your 40th percentile is more indicative of something than your 140th. I would expect them both to regress somewhat back to the mean, but I think we’ll never get actual value out of Crawford.
That's because we signed him for way too much money
Rather than because he can’t hit.
by CelticPride on Dec 28, 2011 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
Not the value we paid for him
I don’t expect to get actual value, as in Crawford being a league-average LF.
Sweeney/Aviles
could match or exceed what Reddick did last year (assuming they are platooned) although the Aviles side would be a defensive downgrade
Sweeney should also see a power boost from the monster.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 29, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Weel not alot to say...this move seems sound
I am still just waiting to see how the rotation fills out – that is the obvious need. I think Bard ultimately will stay in the pen and this Bailey guy should strengthen the pen -maybe he is the setup guy for Bard. So, I will just continue to watch for the next moves.
"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis
wish we could get 2 starters
bailey/bard/melancon/jenks/aceves/albers/morales pen
would be so good
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
Oswalt ?
I would like him to become a RED SOX !
by RED SOX are #1 in my heart on Dec 28, 2011 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
most likely they will pick up a couple of short fliers and hope for the best….they will not be the only team in that position – heck the Cards proved it last year
"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis
Ah, but the Cards can afford to not be all that good in the NL
We don’t have that option, unless we magically get 2 grade A starters off the scrapheap like Cashman did.
#IwishCashmanWasOurGM
to me this is the ideal result
I would love a Bard/Bailey/Melancon trio.
I would still say, if Bard starts we will not have enough relief pitching and need to sign somebody. The SeanO “what could possibly go wrong?!?” RP plan is less than satisfactory to me.
by dennet on Dec 28, 2011 9:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
*Well
"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis
So much love for this trade
How are we possibly going to replace Reddick’s 10 career home runs next year?
Why do you think he was the answer?
We didn’t have a starting RF before the trade and we don’t now.
We do have a better bull pen though.
This
Furthermore, the Sox led MLB in runs scored with virtually nothing coming from RF. I don’t think the loss of Reddick changes that. However, the bullpen just got a lot better, and the upside of Bard in the rotation is a better option than the retreads available(especially when you consider cost).
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
2011 Varitek League Champion
by Lloyd Christmas on Dec 28, 2011 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
On the fence
If we could be sure we were getting a guy that could replicate his numbers in Fenway, then yes, this is a steal. Bailey’s road splits however, suck. Couple that with his elbow problems…i’m really not sold at all.
I liked Reddick but I realize with his approach his chances at sustained success weren’t great.
Bailey's road splits do not suck.
And where they are worse, it’s not because he gets killed in HR/FB, which is what you’d worry about with a fly ball reliever moving from Oakland to Fenway.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 9:42 PM EST up reply actions
No idea if this article made me feel better
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/boston-lands-bailey/
Long story short, Bailey has stranded a crazy number of people on base while away.
The key is that the issue isn't an Oakland vs. other parks issue
It’s a guy who plays better at home. There’s not much reason why playing in a big stadium should change his BB/9 or K/9 numbers unless he’s terrified of pitching in a small park. Now, if that’s the case, it’s something they have to change, but it’s not for a lack of ability.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
Bailey has said in the past
That he likes to challenge hitters, and being in a place like Oakland would only benefit him. Perhaps not so much with the Monster.
No, but there's nothing about a 10.45 K/9 that suggests he should have to worry about the Monster.
Yeah, he’ll give up more, but that’s true of literally any pitcher moving to Fenway. Doesn’t make it a bad idea to bring in a guy who can do that.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Bailey's career road splits:
LOB: 88.2%
HR/9: .76 vs .39 at home
xFIP: 4.27 vs 2.61 at home
And for some odd reason, his BB/9 increases by almost two batters on the road and his K% decreases by nearly 10%. The only thing I can take from this is that at the Coliseum, Bailey knows he has more room for error and chooses to go after hitters, but that doesn’t bode well for Fenway.
Unless he, y'know, goes after hitters.
His numbers in the Coliseum are amazing regardless of what park he plays in, because it’s K and BB/9 that do it. If he pitches the way he does in the Coliseum in Fenway, then he will still be amazing. If not, then he’ll be a 3.62 FIP guy.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
If it was that simple... why didn't he you know, start playing in other stadiums like he did the Coliseum?
Unless of course the Coliseum was the source of his confidence.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Confidence is something that can be dealt with, however.
He’s not a mediocre pitcher benefiting from the Coliseum. If he has problems, it’s because he’s a good pitcher who’s holding himself back. The tools are there to be worked with.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
So what you're say is...
In McClure we trust?
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Hopefully in Bailey Bailey trusts.
It’s entirely possible that’s just a home-road thing too. Some guys just play better at home.
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
He could get a big boost at home from the energy of the Fenway crowd.
That’s not a small factor.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
No, you're right
Just wondering if its a confidence thing. How will he feel with the Monster breathing down his neck?
How will he feel with the Fenway Faithful cheering him on?
I mean, honestly, I’m not worried about Bailey performing. I’m worried about his health.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Just to put the runners stranded in perspective
Back in 08’ when it seemed as if Daisuke was always in trouble and escaping jams, his LOB% was 80.6.
Heyman:
hearing from folks (not a’s folks) that the a’s were quite concerned about baileys elbow. also hear some folks love alcantara
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
So long as it's not A's people
And he passes his physical with the NEW medical staff.
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USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 28, 2011 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
If he fails the physical, we undo this whole deal, right?
Why do I hope we find something wrong with that elbow now, and not in July.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
From the sounds of it, the Sox have already had their look over his medical records
"We had a chance to look into Bailey’s medical history and get to know a lot more about what he’s gone through," Cherington said. "We’re very confident that he will come into camp ready to go."
I'm still very leery of dealing with Billy Beane.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Well, there is still a physical, right?
So, if they saw something in their own exam that wasn’t what they saw in his history, it could fall through?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I'm concerned with his elbow too.
I also like Alcantara – but he’s a lottery ticket at this juncture.
by CelticPride on Dec 28, 2011 11:40 PM EST up reply actions
Are we sure...
… we didn’t sign Bartholomew “Bump” Bailey?
The Year of Extreme Opinions
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 28, 2011 10:14 PM EST reply actions
Was hanging with a girl most of the night and didn't see this until just now
Stupid fucking move, seriously, this is like, the dumbest thing I’ve seen since the Crawford contract.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
Well that's to bad
Because the BOSTON RED SOX made the team better with this trade , and a lot of folks are happy with it
by RED SOX are #1 in my heart on Dec 28, 2011 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
The team is worse with this trade
If you can’t see that it must be because you’ve got your head too far up Cherington’s ass.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
I like people telling me about my intelligence level/level of pinkhatness/level of head-up-assness based on how I like a trade
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 28, 2011 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
Good, I'll be doing a lot of that.
By the way, those rose-colored glasses look fetching on you. Nice choice.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
Sure, okay
Whatever you say, man.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 28, 2011 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
Dude. C'mon.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
by Bloggy on Dec 29, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This thread is awesome
I couldn’t even read every post, but it was a wild ride. I went from annoyed with all the pessimism to amused at the people who pushed back, and then finally just plain entertained as I sat back and enjoyed the ride. Clearly I’m not the only one who’s been jonesing for some Red Sox news.
For the record, I really like this deal. Reddick was never supposed to be one of the Sox top prospects, and the end of last year showed me that his explosion early on very well may have been a fluke. It was still a perfect time to sell high though. GMs got a chance to see him produce at the major league level and someone with a bit of an ego might even think that they can make him a star. Really though, I think Bailey has more talent and he makes the bullpen a strength, especially if Aceves and Bard can somehow stay in the mix.
Frankly corner outfielders are a dime a dozen. Sweeney might very well be just as good as Reddick this year, and the “open” slot also provides a chance to give some other prospects a shot at time in the bigs. I’m with everyone else in wanting at least one more established starter, but if we get that and RF and a #5 starter are our biggest concerns, then I think we’re in damn good shape. After all, this was the best team in baseball for a good stretch last year. Here’s hoping that Bobby V can light a fire under their butts. Cheers fellow Red Sox fans, psycho and otherwise!
by Aluminum Penguin on Dec 28, 2011 10:48 PM EST reply actions
This is why I don't mind this deal.
Reddick, to me, was as good as he was going to be last year. If we can get someone to buy that streak and his defense for a piece we need? Great.
Would I rather we focus on our actual area of need (SP)? Sure.
And again… if #4 and #5 last year were (theoretically) Lackey and Dice K, then Lackey and Wake… I mean, how bad can it be if we’re just replacing those guys?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Hang on, I think I've got it now.
We’re gonna blow it up. We traded for two closer-type relievers and got rid of our “bulk” in the upper minors/utility players to do so. When July comes around we’ll trade those guys, plus Ellsbury, Youk, Scutaro, maybe even Beckett. Bring in a bunch of awesome prospects, and try to get back on track by 2014.
Shrewd move by Cherington, get rid of any non-all-star talent or bloated contracts brought in by Theo so that he can make the team over in his own image. I just hope it works out. Maybe if Crawford has a “bounce back” year we can flip him for a couple guys too.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
I also like this deal, seems like most of us do. We didn’t give up much to get a potential great closer. I liked Reddick more than Kalish, but still love this deal. Welcome Andrew Bailey, plus we have Houston’s closer (Melancon) as an option or as set up man now. Of course, watch Oki kill us this year now that he’s a Yankee.
Okajima isn't a good pitcher
he’s just got a wonky delivery.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 28, 2011 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
I agree,
the AL has figured him out. I am not worried about Oki at all.
We haven't.
We haven’t hit against him yet.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Yeah, but the tape is out there to study at this point.
Which is why he hasn’t been effective. And the rest of the AL is still going to hammer him, since they’ve seen it a lot… if he’s only effective against Boston, he won’t last long in their bullpen.
He needed to go to the NL.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Overall
I think Cherington has not given away any major pieces in any of his deals. He`s created a very strong and long BP. He`s provided options for SP that give him more leverage in acquiring free agents, rather than being stretched over the proverbial barrel. I feel he is taking aim at a legitimate starter or two but won`t be forced into an unfavorable transaction. I always felt Sweeney was a dangerous hitter for Oakland and is reputed to be good with the glove and can play all 3 positions. Bailey reports that this is the first off-season in his MLB career in which he has been healthy.
by Hallelujah2004 on Dec 28, 2011 11:57 PM EST reply actions
Wait, what?
“Bailey reports that this is the first off-season in his MLB career in which he has been healthy.”
Am I confused? Didn’t he end up on the DL in 2011? And now he’s healthy?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
He started the 2011 season on the DL
I think he finished fine. He’s saying the is the first time between seasons he’s been healthy, as in, between 2011 and 2012.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Ah, okay. My mistake.
I remembered the injury, got confused about the timing.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Overall add-on
Things may not turn out so badly.
by Hallelujah2004 on Dec 28, 2011 11:58 PM EST reply actions
We had the best offense in baseball last year.
It’s really shocking to me that trading the 9th best member of that starting lineup for a pitcher to receiving this much resistance…
Tom Brady > Ryan Mallett > Brian Hoyer > Mark Sanchez
by beantownboy171 on Dec 29, 2011 12:24 AM EST reply actions
*is
Tom Brady > Ryan Mallett > Brian Hoyer > Mark Sanchez
by beantownboy171 on Dec 29, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
8th
Salty
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 29, 2011 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
Whoops
7th
Crawford
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
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by Ben Buchanan on Dec 29, 2011 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
I'll make a gentleman's wager
That Crawford puts up better stats next year then Josh Reddick.
Tom Brady > Ryan Mallett > Brian Hoyer > Mark Sanchez
by beantownboy171 on Dec 29, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
I won't take that. Not at all.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 29, 2011 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
Well, he better.
I mean, if he turns in 2011 again, we’re going to be saddled with that albatross for a long, long time.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
The resistance isn't in the deal itself
It’s the implications for Bard and the budget for starting pitching mostly. Also in what sort of prospect Reddick may have been in a trade for starting pitching, but to a lesser extent than the other two.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I don't know
Josh Reddick and Jed Lowrie are roster fluff. We need to hang on to the top guys. And we’re not getting quality starting pitching for roster fluff.
If taking a chance on Bard in the rotation means we can hang on to Middlebrooks, Bogarts and Ranaudo. Then i’m happy.
Tom Brady > Ryan Mallett > Brian Hoyer > Mark Sanchez
by beantownboy171 on Dec 29, 2011 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
Sweeney, Punto and Shoppach are fluff that cost what $2M more than Reddick, Lowrie and Lavarnway?
Reddick could have been a decent piece for a starter, him gone means we keep Kalish, who was a better trade piece anyway. Loosing Reddick opens the door more I think for a Middlebrooks, Bogaerts, Ranuado or Lavarnway to be moved if we do indeed pursue a starting pitcher via trade.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Well, we have Lavarnway still..
My point is that when you can trade roster fluff for valuable pieces like Bailey and Melancon you make the deal. If you could have dealt Sweeney, Punto and Shoppach for valuable pieces i’m sure we would, but no one makes hat deal.
Tom Brady > Ryan Mallett > Brian Hoyer > Mark Sanchez
by beantownboy171 on Dec 29, 2011 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
We (Sox fans)
might have been overvaluing Reddick. He’s likely nothing more than a 4th outfielder – hence a non-centerpiece.
The positive thing to all of this is we’ve made trade for young arms without touching our prospect list
He's a starter for a 2nd Tier team
So, like, Oakland.
People would have been fine with him starting in RF for us this year, that’s fine. I’ve always been iffy on him, and always liked Kalish better, but Kalish’s injury last year kinda hindered plans I bet. I really have no problem at all with this deal.
Not sure what starter is out there that Reddick could’ve been in a package for though.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 29, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
Kalish might be the better player eventually
but how much better is he? I sort of viewed Reddick as our Brett Gardner, dude couldn’t hit a whole hell of a lot, but he had pretty awesome defense. What are we getting from Kalish? Slightly improved offense and slightly worse defense? I would like to have Kalish on the team, but as Sean said his position is less RF and more DL.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
I think Kalish has always gotten better reads and had better range than Reddick
worse arm though. That’s my recollection anyways. I think Kalish is all around the better player if he can actually avoid the DL, which he can’t seem to do. But he almost certainly needs more AAA time.
If he can't avoid the DL
I think that sort of makes Reddick the better prospect by default. Kalish has more talent when he’s on the field, but if he’s on the DL all year what value are you getting from him?
Speaking of injured outfield prospects, does anyone have any word on Westy?
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Is there anyway I can get an 'I told you so' in here (not to you Sean)
I knew Manifest had no place on the top prospect list.
That felt good. Back to your regular programming.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I accept your "I told you so"
I did want Westy on the prospect list
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
right, agreed
Westy got to face live pitching this winter for the first time- DHing and not running the bases.
So what are we thinking?
Lowell by the end of the year?
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
no idea, don't even really want to speculate because I have no idea how recovered his motor skills will ever be
Do we know how well he did against said live pitching?
That could go a long way towards telling us how he did.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 29, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
In general
I understand people don’t like when negative posts are repeated over and over or when people write off the team so early. Understandable, I don’t love it either. But I think some are too quick to brush off voiced concerns with the lazy (and I hope noone takes that word personally) “wait until spring training” or “the team knows more than us” arguments. And while I agree with that logic to a point, it really is somewhat annoying to see it constantly, probably as annoying as the blatant negativity is to some posters.
Of course the team knows more than me…they have access to information I don’t.
Of course we should wait until Spring Training to make final judgement.
It’s obvious logic and essentially squashes any opinion or judgement one might have of the team at this point, as well as judgements on 80% of the teams moves and decisions. All people can do is judge what they’ve done or who they have now. Other than that what our the discussions going to be? Saying, “Well, they aren’t done with the team yet” basically says to me, “Let’s talk about the team in March”. Which is fine, if that is what you want to do. But don’t get all self-righteous (and this is not particular to any one person) when you go to a baseball blog in December and see people judging the team as it stands in December.
I guess we can tell fart jokes and talk about how Crawford sucked last year?
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 29, 2011 11:06 AM EST reply actions
It's the Internet, and it's a Message Board
And some of us are likely bored and want news/updates/information. I get that, the need to discuss and dissect all of the moves made and all of the moves we want to see made.
I guess I’m just tired of hearing about how this is a .500 team, how these players suck, how Cherington is “retarded” or making “retarded” moves and those that like them or think there’s still more coming and are preaching a bit of patience are wearing pink hats with rose-colored sunglasses while our heads are up the team’s asses. There is no critical thought in those statements, just like there isn’t in the “People who are complaining are jackasses”. Both are ignorant statements. Can’t we at least TRY and be a bit rational and thoughtful on both sides of the aisle?
Listen, I’m not saying we can’t post our knee-jerk reactions, but it seems people aren’t really judging, they’re just kicking and screaming, on BOTH SIDES! There is no need for people to start yelling at each other, calling each other names, questioning each other’s fanhood, asking each other to stop posting, etc. Can’t we rise above the blanket “This team sucks!” or “This team rules!” sides?
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 29, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I guess I’m just tired of hearing about how this is a .500 team, how these players suck, how Cherington is "retarded" or making "retarded" moves and those that like them or think there’s still more coming and are preaching a bit of patience are wearing pink hats with rose-colored sunglasses while our heads are up the team’s asses./blockquote>
Oh, I agree with it’s stupid statements on both sides of the aisle. But to be honest how many people actually do that? Not all of the skeptical, or even negative people do what you’re talking about.
Not to focus on one person…but Sean posts often and is often…pessimistic. But I still know what his beefs are with the team because he HAS brought them up before and given reasoning. Some I agree with to a lesser extent (agreed about SP concerns, but I am not as quick as him to write off Beckett and Buch) and some I don’t agree with at all. However, I do NOT often see him do the things you mention as far as crapping on other posters or telling them they have their head up their ass. He also isn’t telling anyone (again, that I know of) that they are ruining the site or to just get the f#$# out. That is coming from the “don’t be negative” crowd, with very few exceptions.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 29, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Quote epic fail
Only the very first paragraph shoud’ve been in quotes.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 29, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Right.
What’s interesting is a lot of people are attacking Sean O for being negative, but he’s posting his actual concerns about the team. He’s not particularly attacking other posters (except, here and there, when he responds to someone attacking him).
I don’t generally share Sean’s negative outlook on our team (even as September seemed to be sliding away – I remembered him rooting for the Yankees to beat the Rays in July, to truly eliminate them and me thinking that was dumb… there was no way the Rays could get back into the race)… however, right now, I do share a lot of his concerns.
Yes, the same “sky is falling” posts over and over gets old.
However, the same “wait for ST” gets old too.
Do I think the team today is what we’ll start the season with? Of course not… but like you said… I can only evaluate what they’ve done so far, and until we sign some SPs, I have very deep concerns.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!

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