Open Thread: Starting Pitcher Preferences, Or Whatever
by Marc Normandin on Dec 22, 2011 12:33 PM EST
in Open Thread
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PrintThere is nothing going on in the world of baseball today, a fact that is driving all of us slowly mad. Here's the deal: I know you all have your preferences for starting pitchers. I would like you to detail your plans for filling out the rotation, by any means -- trade, signing, conversion from relief -- in the comments. If you empty relievers into the rotation, figure out a way to replenish the pen, too.
Think of it as your holiday wishlist a few days before Christmas. The Red Sox are more likely to make a move that plugs a rotation spot after the holidays, as they will be less than two months from spring training -- meaning everyone who remains unemployed will also be less than two months from spring training, except their version is much more hypothetical. Now is as good of a time as any to discuss what it is you want the Red Sox to do.
We'll feature a few of our favorites in a later post, so remember: you're not just doing this for discussion, but also for Internet fame.
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Preferred Starting Pitcher roation as follows:
1 – Lester
2 – Beckett
3 – Buchholz
4 – Oswalt (on a one-year deal to be replaced next year by Cole Hamels)
5 – Bard (tons of relievers unsigned or available for trade out there for his bullpen replacement – pick one… Andrew Bailey, for instance)
6/alt – Aceves
2012 Starting Rotation:
1. Lester
2. Beckett
3. Buchholz
4. Aceves
5. Bard
I placed primary importance on avoiding the luxury tax, resetting the 3 year cycle is extremely important IMHO, if we go over this year, even if it is only by a little will handcuff the club next year and for years to come, when the free agents classes will have far more to offer than this year.
I realise the risk involved with this approach, but plenty of back up can be acquired for minimal cost. Low-risk, high reward is the way we should be going; fingers crossed it is Colon and Garcia we get rather than Penny and Smoltz!
Agree with this line of thinking (as my post below says)...
But I do think it’s optimistic to count on both Aceves and Bard, as it is also probably optimistic that a guy like Colon will take a minor league deal.
That said, I’d much rather see this strategy, then some of the other rotations proposed, where we trade for / sign like 8 more pitchers and blow past the tax threshold.
I agree with dsharp
Lester
Beckett
Buchholz
Bard
Oswalt
Oswalt seems like a fit to me. Being that he’ll take a one year deal, that gives us the flexibility we need when we have to put Lackey back out there….
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
Herreshoff.info -- The most awesome website since the invention of the internet.
Olney saying A's are moving closer to a Gio trade, down to two teams
Then this:
Gordon Edes is reporting Red Sox very much involved on Gio Gonzalez, so it may be OAK now choosing between BOS and WASH offers.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 22, 2011 2:24 PM EST reply actions
this is the complete polar opposite of what I just typed,
but that’s kind of exciting. Probably mostly just because it’s a potential move.
If the A’s were actually asking for Montero and Banuelos or Betances, I’m a little scared of what they would ask for from the Sox. I think that likely, if anywhere, Gio is going to the Nats (and that’s cool, they could end up with a pretty nice rotation there)
I'm guessing it starts with Middlebrooks, then probably Ranaudo and more
They liked Workman at the trade deadline, so maybe him instead.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 22, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Heyman's reporting it's down to Sox, Nats for Gio
and he’s calling the Nats the favorites.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 22, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
Losing Middlebrooks and Ranaudo would be too much.
Middlebrooks is a potential starting 3B. Ranaudo, with development, is a potential ace. Ranaudo is still a couple of years away, but Middlebrooks could be ready now.
That’s our most major-league ready player who hasn’t come up yet, and our highest upside player in the organization for a SP whose control has at least some questions, and numbers that are good, but also put up in the AL’s most pitcher-friendly park.
Ranaudo is probably a mid-rotation starter
Even when he was drafted, his ceiling was maybe a #2. But I won’t argue Middlebrooks, I like him a lot.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 22, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
Or, to put it another way
If you made me choose between Barnes and Ranaudo, I’d probably take Barnes.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 22, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
Red Sox are now very much uninvolved with Gio Gonzalez
as he has been traded to the Natinals.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I mean, my ideal would be
Lester
Beckett
Buchholz
Oswalt
Maholm
but, that probably being entirely unreasonable, I’d settle for something like:
Lester
Beckett
Buchholz
Oswalt
Harden, with our array of possible rotation pitchers ready to take his spot when he goes down
Basically, my priorities are as follows:
1) I don’t want to be trading away valuable pieces. This means Lavarnway, Middlebrooks, Ranaudo, etc. Our farm has taken too many hits lately, and I feel like we’re verging on seeing the results of that- our payroll is ballooning while we still have holes. If we keep trading away the prospects, then that problem is self-perpetuating. I feel like the better financial idea for the organization is to take a hit and spend more than they planned this year while letting prospects develop that can hopefully step in the next few years and take major league roles, opening up money that way. Trading for guys who are getting expensive costs us cheap players under control and is really a temporary band-aid more than anything else.
2) I don’t want to rely on a guy who hasn’t started a significant amount in years to be a starter going into 2011. This includes Bard, but also Aceves. Mostly this is because I would like the team to compete in 2012 (which should be viable), and as such I don’t want to have a starter there who may be good or may be bad that we know is almost certainly not going to pass the 150 innings mark. The best case there is he does well, and then August hits and we’re suddenly down to 4 starters. I’d rather see a guy like Harden, who will be cheap because of injury problems, who can at least pitch some of the year, and then use the other guys for depth. Pretty much the only way I am OK with the idea of Bard being a starter going into the year is if we can acquire a LOT of backup plans AND he looks great in spring training.
Totally with you on this.
I really want us to have enough depth to just call Bard the closer, and go from there.
Honestly, sign starting pitching until there is no more… then, if there is a really cheap option still floating out there at closer, or willing to take a cheap deal because he thinks the Sox might get a ring/boost in 2013 value… fine.
For now… STARTING PITCHING!!
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Cafardo just tweeted.
That the Sox are out of the Beltran sweepstakes.
I figured as much.
We have pieces that will fill in fine (Reddick, Kalish). Better to use our resources on shoring up a quality SP.
1. Lester
2. Beckett
3. Buchholz
4. Oswalt
5. Pineiro/Harden
"I don't put any foreign substances on the baseball. Everything I use is from the good old U.S.A."
JVSM
Pedroya Lova
by Dustin's #1 Fan on Dec 22, 2011 4:38 PM EST reply actions
I gotta think Pineiro could be had on a minor league deal
after last year.
If we got him, he’d probably contribute the same to us that Millwood did last year though- pitch in the minors for a bit, then go somewhere else and be OK.
He seems to be a cheap alternative, kind of like a low-risk high reward move
"I don't put any foreign substances on the baseball. Everything I use is from the good old U.S.A."
JVSM
Pedroya Lova
by Dustin's #1 Fan on Dec 22, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, I'd probably be interested on a minor league deal
just wouldn’t give him any shot of starting the year in the rotation.
Yes, but we tried this before.
He failed in Boston, was moderately successfuly elsewhere.
Or am I somehow remembering this wrong??
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Ugh I agree but I hate bringing back guys
that stunk it up for the Sox already (of course his 34 innings were as a reliever)
I thought the goal was to have him start...
… when he failed to show any ability there, we moved him to relief, where he was equally bad.
Again, just my recollection, but I don’t want him back.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Who
… was the last reliever given significant innings that was traded for? Gagne? Crisp for Ramon Ramirez? I’m going to have to believe that was 80% done at the behest of Crisp, cause even as a 4rth OFer that’s a bad trade*
Seriously, I’m asking. When’s the last time the Sox made a good trade for a reliever? I’m sure there’s gotta be someone obvious I’m missing.
*God I hate trading position players for relievers.
Yeah, that was the first one that jumped to mind.
Quick… who did we give away for Wagner, and where is he/they now??
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
heh it was Chris Carter and Eddie Lora
Lora, I believe, is no longer in baseball.
Carter, I believe, is a minor league free agent
We also got draft picks we used on Kolbrin Vitek and Anthony Ranaudo from letting him walk. So yeah. Not a bad trade.
Still not buying on trading Lowrie away...
… however, Wagner is the clear example of recent success.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Depends on how much money is truly available....not just how much under the cap they are.
Personally I would like Oswalt on a one-year deal. Don’t think much needs to be said for reasoning…the only real concern I would have is his back but I tend to think he’ll be fine this year. Kuroda would be a comparable option. I wouldn’t mind Maholm if he could be had for 3 years (or 2 with an option) for less than 6=7 million a year.
If we need cheaper options, I think Garland could be good option. In addition, I wouldn’t mind minor league deals for guys like Sheets, Webb, etc but I have a feeling if those guys take that kind of deal then they will pretty much plenty of teams ready to take a chance.
To be honest at this point I don’t even know who is available free agent wise. I don’t want Edwin Jackson at what he’ll likely get. As far as trades, those guys are running out as well so I don’t know who is available there either. Jurrgens (spelling) from Atlanta will likely cost too much for what I think he’ll do in the AL east but even still is a decent option. Gavin Floyd is another depending on the price.
I don;t know. We need starting pitchers. I think Bard will do better than some expect at starting, but I also don’t think they will push him more than 125-130 innings. So if he can only go 20 starts (at most) and we get a #5 who likely to go less than 25 starts than we’ll basically need another, if not two starting pitchers.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 22, 2011 6:14 PM EST reply actions
now that I think of it
wouldn’t practically every team in baseball take Oswalt on a 1-year deal?
by dennet on Dec 22, 2011 7:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Which is why I'm not sure if Oswalt will come to Boston.
According to Cafardo, they only have $12.7 million to spend. Signing Oswalt or Kuroda would certainly move them close to or above the Luxury tax line, and when Gordon Edes says his Sox sources are telling him they want ot add not one but two pitchers before ST. I think Floyd would be the smarter choice depending how much they’d have to give up in terms of prospects.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 22, 2011 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
And not with a strong chance to make the playoffs...
Oswalt’s motivation this year will be two-fold… to show he deserves a 3 year deal for the next contract; and to showcase his success at the highest level… while his stats in the AL East might suffer a bit, success there will write his ticket on his next deal.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Oh, to be a teacher...
Wait…. there are kids involved with that?
Second wait… does that mean Sean found a job? Congrats!!
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Lester
Buchholz
Beckett
Floyd
Oswalt
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
I don't think the Sox get both of Floyd & Oswalt.
But damn I want Oswalt yesterday.
by dennet on Dec 22, 2011 7:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Getting Floyd and Oswalt isn't impossible.
One is a trade, the other a FA.
A lot of posts suggesting two trades though, and that seems really unlikely. Trading for Floyd/Danks AND Garza? I don’t see how we could do that.
And as for signing multiple top FAs (Oswalt, Edwin Jackson, Kuroda), I just have a hard time seeing that too. Why would the FO talk about staying under the luxury tax, then have a relatively quiet first two months in the offseason, THEN go out and sign the top free agents available? Seems like a pretty strange strategy.
They've now changed their stance on the Luxury tax.
They realize they are going to go over it, but they want to stay as close to the threshold as possible. I think that’s why a trade for Floyd makes the most sense, he’s only making $7 million this year, meaning they’d still have a little flexibility for other needs.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 23, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
I'll just focus on relievers
Even if Bard closes the Sox could use a handful of borderline setup/emergency closer guys. You know, Just In Case. Here’s my little survey.
My favorites:
Juan Cruz
Peter Moylan
Some risk/reward types:
David Aardsma
Hong-Chi Kuo
Joel Zumaya
Decent mid relievers:
Luis Ayala
Todd Coffey
Warm bodies:
Mike Gonzalez
Mike MacDougal
José Mijares
Michael Wuertz
Micah Owings
Clay Hensley
Cherington got Shoppach and Punto, I’m sure he could make a deft RP signing. I think having good, cheap RPs is a huge deal. I would hope for one from each pile. Otherwise we are very possibly looking at Bard, Melancon, abyss. Or maybe just Melancon, abyss.
by dennet on Dec 22, 2011 7:45 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I should have mentioned
these are free agent relievers
by dennet on Dec 22, 2011 7:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
My ideal starting rotation
Beckett
Lester
Buchholz
Floyd
Aceves
keeps Bard in the Bullpen
If they had listened to me and acquired Felipe Paulino last year
We would have made the playoffs!!!
Ok, if we’d acquired anyone else last year, we’d have made the playoffs.
But Paulino is a good pitcher.
Remember, we'll have about a half season from a free agent-to-be Boras client.
Now, i don’t want the red sox to count on Dice K being anything more than mediocre, but he´ll be playing for a contract and could have great upside. Bard, Aceves, and a couple of “Bartolo in NY/Bartolo in Boston” toss-ups would be enough, i think. You can’t assume Lester, Beckett and Buchholz will be healthy and/or effective (it’s an even year for Beckett, and without his binky…), but you can always trade before the deadline. Of course if they can spring for Oswalt, all the better, but the luxury tax could handcuff Ben in coming seasons. to sum up:
Lester
Beckett
Buchholz
Bard
Aceves
low cost-high reward veteran arms (Ben Sheets, anyone?)
Dice (gulp) K
let’s see how good Ben is at building bullpens, hopefully on the cheap.
Because the reason why impending free agents do well
is that Boras is their agent.
Starting the year with Bard and Aceves in the rotation is just not an intelligent move. That’s a move that says we’re throwing in the towel on this season.
Dump Beckett for Prospects
I don’t believe the community has quite come to grips with the negative impact Becket (along with some of the other veterans) had on the team in September.
I’d like to go to a 6-man rotation to protect Bard’s workload and Buch’s back:
Lester
Danks (tougher trade, now that we’ve waited)
Buchholz
Garza
Colon
Bard
Doubront is first off the bench when someone is injured.
we haven't come to grips with it
because we (or at least I) don’t believe that it had that negative an impact. And I do believe that he was the best pitcher in the team last year.
We didn’t necessarily wait on Danks, just the asking price on him was ridiculous. Hence why no one traded for him.
There’s just no way we would be feasibly able to trade for Danks and Garza.
And Colon can go sign somewhere else. He’s already used up his good will in Boston.
For all the fried chicken and beer stories...
… you do realize this happens in every MLB club house, right? (And not you, Wolf, but the general population…)
Ever talk to someone that played in the Major Leagues? It is a grind. Guys do what they can to cope with the day in and day out grind. Clemens (even before ’roids) was notoriously absent on his non-pitching days. Who the hell cares what these guys do on their off days, as long as they are “on” for their “on” days.
Yes, none of them were in September. However, I still doubt “fried chicken and beer” caused our September collapse. A little perspective folks…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Exactly.
That isn’t what happened in September.
What happened in September is that our rotation was non-existent. Even if Lester/Beckett had thrown TWO games, solid games, each in September, we’re in the playoffs and none of this happens.
None of that happened because of the fried chicken and beer. If that September collapse doesn’t happen, none of us know about fried chicken and beer (which, I still maintain, happens in a lot of club houses…)
What a waste of energy… get a starting rotation together for 2012, and this offense will lead us to the playoffs. No starting rotation, and the rest is just rambling.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
My ideal:
Lester
Beckett
Buchholz
Danks
Maholm
What’s probably going to happen
Lester
Beckett
Buchholz
Bard
Saunders
Bard will fail horrendously and get hurt, Saunders will be mini-Lackey, one of our big three is guaranteed to get hurt, because that’s just the sort of luck we have, and one of the other two will be cursed by the voodoo medicine man in the employ of Tampa Bay. Our pitching will be in shambles by July, anchored by only one of our original starters (probably Lester, who will have put up an ERA around 6 in April) forcing us to make a trade that we should have made over the offseason for a decent starter, except now that everyone knows we’re desperate that pitcher will cost an arm, leg, and Cherington’s firstborn son. Cherington will resign in disgrace, and the brass will hire a washed up player who was never really that smart and has a shitty mustache to replace him. He’ll go on to draft a left fielder in the first round of every draft for the foreseeable future. Boston will fall into economic ruin as we all pin our hopes on a supposedly elite young pitcher, let’s call him Harry Joeyington. He’ll get destroyed year after year without an adequate team around him. Free Agents won’t want to sign with us, using us only as a last resort to extend their careers. All this will culminate in the ultimate embarrassment, the dreaded 0-162 season.
This is my nightmare.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
My nightmare is similar to yours
with one addition. I think what will happen is that everything will be in shambles, then Daisuke will come back from injury and perform like his 2006 self, using the power of extreme luck to just barely scrape us into the playoffs. There, we’ll be swept by the Angels, but Daisuke will have put up the numbers to be regarded as the savior of the Red Sox 2012 season, thereby prompting our new GM to sign him to the Barry Zito contract.
In my nightmare
It’s John Lackey, not Dice-K.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 22, 2011 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, and our new GM runs Ortiz out of town, saying we can't be tied to our past.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 22, 2011 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
Thankfully, though... no chance Lackey is the 2012 savior, right?
I mean, he’s gone for all of 2012, unlike Dice K, who comes back by… August??
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
My nightmare spans about a decade
he could come back in 2013 and do it.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 23, 2011 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
Lester
Beckett
Buchholz
Edwin Jackson
Oswalt
depth (on minor league deals of course):
Garland
Harden
Wakefield
Webb
Colon
Doubt this will be enough, but there’s a good chance
Garland and Harden will be able to manage Major League deals.
So, likely, will Colon, and I don’t think he, or anyone in the FO wants him back in Boston.
Lackey will be back in ‘13, and we don’t want to block our rotation up in case we can get someone like Danks or Greinke. I realize Jackson had a better year last year, but I still believe Danks and Greinke are better pitchers overall, so locking up that spot in the rotation may not be the best of ideas. Like the Webb signing, I think this might be the year he finally manages to get back to the majors.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 23, 2011 1:43 AM EST up reply actions
I was thinking in terms of my ideal rotation this year.
I definitely prefer Greinke to Jackson overall. I assume with the extension that Danks won’t be leaving Chicago anytime soon, but he’d be great. I think Colon deserves another shot as depth after last year.
I guess I've been out of the loop.
I didn’t know he signed an extension.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 23, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
With the extension Danks signed, he's out of the 2013 plans, right?
I mean, I’m guessing here… but…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I would assume so.
Doesn’t make a lot of sense for Kenny to sign him then trade him.
As an aside, he’s made some weird moves this offseason. Calls it a rebuilding period, then trades a high-upside closer who’s under club control for like 5 years, then signs an extension with one of his biggest trade chips. Unless he finds a way to dump off Floyd, Quentin, and maybe even Rios, I’m not sure how this was a rebuild.
Trying to stay beneath the cap, and maintain flexibility for next offseason...
Lester
Beckett
Buchholz
Maholm
Volstad (who becomes expendable when FLA signs Saunders)
Aceves / Miller / Dubront all are ready as SP depth, maybe Wake too if he’ll take a ticket to AAA. And Bard stays in the pen.
I realize it’s not the most sexy back end of a rotation. But I don’t think #4-5 starters are supposed to be sexy. They need to just keep their ERA under 4.5, and throw innings. And before everyone tells me this rotation is terrible, and why didn’t I include Oswalt or Jackson or whatever, it’s because I want us to be under the cap. Sure, we can go out and sign a bunch of people to fill out the back end. But I don’t think it’s necessary.
Well, my main concern from lack of activity is another Wakefield contract
We all love Tim but he needs to retire
"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis
I do feel pretty confident that they won't re-sign him
between Ben saying things like “we’d like to talk to him before we decide his future” and Wake’s agent threatening that Wake could win 15 games in the National league, I don’t think he’s coming back. I’m sure they’ll offer him a minor league contract to be rotation depth, but I’m pretty sure he won’t do that.
I don't want Wake in the NL
Watching him try to hit would just be sad.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 23, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
Well, he's a converted shortstop, right.... what 22 years ago??
Honestly, though… looking at the transition guys like Brad Penny have made, I bet Wakefield could win 15 games in the NL somewhere. It would be sad to see, but I have to think it is well past time for him to be in a Sox uniform.
Maybe he retires, but I won’t blame him if he wants to keep going over in the NL.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
of course, back a couple years ago
didn’t he end up missing a couple of months because he hurt himself taking a swing in a game? or was it a bunt attempt?
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