Point Pointer-Count: On Rany Jazayerli's Latest From Grantland
One of the great things about baseball is it attracts smart people. The statistical revolution in the game has given us even more to discuss, and indeed, argue about. For example, take Rany Jazayerli's column from Grantland.com wherein he contends Red Sox fans should be concerned about new GM Ben Cherington given his first few moves. He cites the the recent deal where the Red Sox acquired reliever Mark Melancon for shortstop Jed Lowrie and pitching prospect Kyle Weiland as prime evidence, as well as potentially moving Daniel Bard into the rotation. There is a fair bit of disagreement on both points, so...
Into the ring steps our two competitors! In the red corner, weighing more than he feels comfortable saying in a public forum... Matt Kory! In the not-red corner, weighing as much as the two pieces of 8.5x10 paper his column is printed on ... Rany Jazayerl's column for Grantland.com! OK, gentlemen, here are the rules. We're going to go point by point through Mr. Jazayerli's article. Nothing below the belt so, Matt, no mom jokes. Mr. Jazayerli is of course welcome to make fun of Matt's mom. Now touch gloves and come out writing!
Point 1: You Don't Trade Regulars For Relievers
Mr. Jazayerli's contention that the deal was bad for the Red Sox -- and good for the Astros -- seems to be founded at least in part upon the believe that such a deal is one-sided intrinsically. That is, when ever you trade a starting player for a reliever, the team acquiring the reliever made a bad trade. This quotation sums up Mr. Jazayerli's position on the matter (all quotes from Mr. Jazayerli are taken from this article):
Melancon is a nice little reliever [...], but a year ago you couldn't have acquired Jed Lowrie for five Mark Melancons. A switch-hitting shortstop with a career .252/.324/.408 line? Yeah, I'll take two.
Funny, because the Red Sox actually had two. Marco Scutaro is a career .270/.338/.389 hitter, and has hit .284/.343/.401 with over the last two seasons with Boston. OK, he's not a switch hitter like Lowrie, but he's a better fielder both by Fan Graphs advanced fielding data and by my eyes. Well, in fairness, when I put a bag over my head both fielders look similar. Still, Lowrie was redundant.
[Lowrie has] got more service time than Melancon, but three years of a starting shortstop is worth a lot more than five years of a reliever.
All true except Lowrie wasn't going to be a starting shortstop for the Red Sox. Look at it this way. The Sox could have dealt the guy with the higher ceiling and the injury problems or they could have dealt the steadier, more reliable guy. Keep in mind also that both high ceiling guy and steady reliable guy hit about the same when everything is said and done.
Boston wasn't going to play two shortstops at once because they don't employ Joe Maddon and with Dustin Pedroia at second there isn't a place to move either player without regretting it later. With Mike Aviles on the roster as well, someone had to go, and the Sox didn't want to trade Scutaro so Lowrie was the next most marketable. The Sox were not going to get the highest and best use out of Lowrie this year so dealing him now makes sense.
Point 2: Jed Lowrie Alone Was Worth More Than Melancon, But Adding Weiland Was Way Too Much
Again, Mr. Jazayerl:
Throwing in Wieland, who has some back-end rotation possibilities for an NL team, is just salt in the wound.
Weiland could be a fine pitcher and maybe including him in the deal tilts it further in the Astros direction. It probably does. Even if so, Weiland wasn't going to have much of a role on the 2012 Red Sox. He certainly wasn't going to start and there likely wasn't a role for him in the bullpen either. As odd as it may seem, trading for the young cost controlled reliever Melancon was as much about wining in 2012 as it was about winning in the subsequent seasons. Weiland and Lowrie didn't have roles on the 2012 Red Sox. The Sox added someone who can help them win now and in the years beyond for two players who were, at best, an insurance policy and and insurance policy against another insurance policy.
As far as Lowrie being worth more than Melancon, well, that's an assertion that's as tough to attack as it is to defend. If Lowrie were the highest and best possible Lowrie he could be then sure, absolutely. Since Lowrie has played barely over a full season's worth of games (175) over the past three years due to a litany of injuries so varied you'd think he was the subject of an on-going military experiment, it's hard to know what his value around the league is. What we know is he's a 28 year old, injury prone, cheap, good hit, little field shortstop. There is value in that for certain, but I'm not sure it's as much as Mr. Jazayerli contends. But maybe it is.
Point 3: Moving Bard To The Rotation Is Dumb
Moving Daniel Bard to the rotation, which the team may do or, alternately, they may not do depending on how the rest of the off season plays out, is, according to Mr. Jazayerli, "absurd." Actually, he says, "It's hard to convey just how absurd this idea is." He cites Bard's struggles in the minor leagues in 2007. These struggles, and calling them struggles probably under-sells how awful Bard really was, happened just after Bard was drafted and inserted into professional ball for the first time. Here's what he says:
Bard started his professional career as a starting pitcher and it nearly destroyed him. In 2007, Bard’s first pro season, he made 22 starts in the low minor leagues. In 75 innings, he walked 78 batters and threw 27 wild pitches. Before the whispers of "Steve Blass Disease" reached a crescendo, the Sox moved him to the bullpen, where he’s been effective ever since. And now they want to send him back into the dragon’s lair?
At this point I'm going to turn the floor over to my surprise witness, the Providence Journal's Brian MacPherson, who covered just this topic about a month ago:
But the Bard pitching for the Red Sox now barely resembles the Bard who pitched at Single-A Greenville and Single-A Lancaster back in 2007. The Red Sox tried to change the mechanics Bard had used in college after they drafted him, and what they had him do simply didn't work. "I was at 90 to 93 with a crappy curveball and a changeup I couldn't locate," he said shortly after his major-league debut. "There were times I went out there and felt like I was pitching with someone else's mechanics and someone else's repertoire."
So the Red Sox monkeyed around with Bard's mechanics and it didn't work. Then they moved him to the pen and he went back to his old mechanics later that year. According to OTM's own Marc Normandin, as soon as Bard returned to his old mechanics (that winter in the Hawaiian League) he regained lost velocity and began pitching with far more command and control.
None of this guarantees Bard will be successful if the Red Sox do transition him to the rotation, but saying he couldn't do it five years ago so he can't do it now misses both the forest and the trees.
The especially odd thing to me is that Mr. Jazayerli would argue in one breath that the Red Sox made a mistake dealing a shortstop for a reliever because of relative value, but then, in the next breath, would argue against the Red Sox taking a reliever and making him a starter. Surely he knows far better than I (and I'm quite content saying Mr. Jazayerli knows more about baseball than I do by a factor of a number too high for me to count to) the relative value of a starter versus a reliever. And in fairness, he does say if it works out it will "pay big dividends."
One final point on this whole thing, courtesy of WEEI.com's Alex Speier (forgive the long quotation):
In a vaccum, if Weiland emerges as a solid starter for the next six years for the Astros or if Lowrie remains healthy and becomes an everyday shortstop for the next three years in Houston, then it will be easy to conclude that, no matter how good Melancon is, the Astros got the better of the deal. After all, a reliever who works 60-80 innings per year is less valuable to a team than a 180-200 innings a year pitcher or a starter at a premium position.
The Astros aren’t a team that needs to tinker. They were a horrible team that needs big pieces; they are a better team for having exchanged a reliever for regulars.
But that doesn’t make it a bad deal for the Red Sox. Quite the contrary. The Sox are a team that needs to fight to get better at the margins. If they had been one win better in 2011, after all, their season would have gone on for at least one more day. Melancon’s impact on the 2012 Sox exceeds, in all likelihood, what either Weiland (who was slated to open the year in Triple-A) or Lowrie (a role player whose role was dwindling steadily) was going to offer.
In a sense, the Astros have the luxury of being able to win this deal. They have so few pieces that acquiring players like Weiland and Lowrie fills two holes on their roster. The Red Sox aren't in that same position as those same two players not only didn't fill holes on their roster, but were either redundant or wouldn't have made the roster in the first place. Melancon may or may not be the reliever the Sox hope him to be, but the players they gave up for him weren't likely to help the Red Sox win baseball games in 2012.
As for moving Bard, well, we've kinda kicked this dead horse again and again here, so I'll just say, from all the information available, it seems like it has a fair enough possibility of success that I think it's worth a try. One thing I'm pretty sure of, though, is it's not absurd.
38 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Good post.
It’s easy for outside parties (not members of the organization) to sit back and say who wins and who loses. But, I think you’ve pointed out some key points and I would also add, don’t the Red Sox need to clear a roster spot or two to grab another starting pitcher or two? If you need to lose spots, at least one of them was a redundant position. Seems to me that between Aviles, Lowrie and Scoot….Scoot is the most reliable and other teams probably wanted Lowrie more than Aviles and possibly more than Scoot.
As far as his statement about not being able to acquire Lowrie for five Melancon(s)…sure maybe. But it isn’t relevent because things change. Big deal. A couple of years ago, noone outside of Philly probably knew Vance Worley’s name.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 20, 2011 8:24 AM EST reply actions
Well.
Even pretending that the trade exists in a complete vacuum in which you can simply look at the quality of the players:
Trading two regulars for a reliever is an overpay.
But trading a pitcher who MIGHT become a regular but was, in fact, only the 16th best prospect in the system (according to John Sickels’ recent list) and a flawed shortstop who in four years has yet to stay healthy, hit, or field, for a very good reliever is NOT an overpay.
by abbreviatedman on Dec 20, 2011 10:18 AM EST reply actions
I talked to Rany on Twitter about this for a while yesterday
Was pretty disappointed with his piece, as it didn’t mention any of Lowrie’s many faults, didn’t detail just why Bard as a starter could be a bad idea, and spent hundreds of words equating Bill Smith to Ben Cherington before downplaying how much that even mattered within the context of the article. Just… weird. And from a guy (and former co-worker of mine!) who has a deserved reputation for quality work.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 20, 2011 10:22 AM EST reply actions
Yeah, I'm a little surprised too.
Rany is generally a great and even-handed writer.
by abbreviatedman on Dec 20, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
His piece on Crawford last offseason
really made me feel a lot better about the signing.
by abbreviatedman on Dec 20, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
Yes—both to the piece sucking and to Rany usually NOT sucking
Grantland is just straight-up awful, but Rany is one of the few good sportswriters on there. I was totally baffled by how little of his intelligence he applied to this piece—it was written as though he’d never actually heard of these players specifically, and only knew that shortstops > relievers and that 2 players > 1 player.
I liked the trade, but I totally understand the point of view of people who say we should have held on to Lowrie to see if he can stay healthy and fulfill his promise. Not trading him at all would be defensible. But people who say we should have gotten more in return for him are just totally clueless regarding his current value.
This.
Rany’s a smart guy, he knows you can’t just look at a guy’s offensive rate stats and ignore his defense and, most importantly, his health.
That article speaks of a website designed to ignore facts and instead say provocative things to get pageviews.
Rany becomes Shaugnessy? Deeply disappointed.
by abbreviatedman on Dec 20, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Rany Loses
His argument is full of holes. A year ago, Meloncan had not proven himself. A year ago, I thought Lowrie would become a Pedroia type player, but he dissapointed again. Weiland could be another Roger Clemens, or he could wash out by this time next year. That’s the nature of a trade.Today, the trade looks good. .
Yes
I’m a huge fan of Rany’s.
As to the Bill Smith part, I just left it out because it wasn’t germane to the Red Sox.
Writer at Over The Monster. Follow me on Twitter! It'll be super awesome fun! @mattymatty2000
by Matthew Kory on Dec 20, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
Insofar as the article bags on the notion of Bard as a starter...
… I find it to be a well-written and insightful piece of non-claptrap that never made me want to retch.
However, the remainder of the article did seem to be flawed as people have mentioned. The analysis of the trade papered over a lot of Lowrie’s flaws – and this is speaking as someone who was not a wild fan of the trade. The doom-saying portion of the article was also just that: a crazy person with a sandwich board demanding that innocent passersby repent because the end is near. The team has one problem – they go John Lackey Simple Jack full-retard when it comes to drafting, developing and signing pitchers. A large problem and not the easiest problem to fix, but it’s really the only problem. They’ve missed the playoffs two years in a row after absorbing horrific injuries in 2010 (fielding) and 2011 (pitching). Predicting a metamorphosis into the Blue Jays on this basis is merely being alarmist and sensational.
I’m assuming that Grantland made Rany agree to write dumber so as to not shine a spotlight on the simple-minded egotism that characterizes most of what they produce.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 20, 2011 11:49 AM EST reply actions
There isn't really insight into the Bard portion
He just says this is absurd, he was bad before, he can’t possibly be good now. Without mentioning changed mechanics, additional pro experience, sample size, anything. He doesn’t even really mention the real cons, either, so don’t think I’m saying the lack of evidence is one-sided. It’s totally missing on both ends.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 20, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, but...
… ultimately “this is absurd” is adequate for my purposes. Well said, Mr. Jazayerli. Well said.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 20, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously, though
If I ever use that little evidence but claim my point is strong, I would hope you guys and gals would call me out for it. I don’t mind writing something and discussing it, and I don’t mind if all of you disagree, but at the least I want to put it all out there so you can make your decision about it.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 20, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
My thought is
the Sox probably changed his mechanics for a reason, his current mechanics are probably hard on his arm and cause fatigue (see his struggles after 60 or so innings on the year) as a reliever he’s fine, but if he gets exhausted by June or if his arm snaps off at the elbow and flies into the stands, I’m gonna be pissed.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 20, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
An unsaid reason might have been injury concern, but it seems to me they just thought the over the top release was more likely to suceed in MLB.
That’s what they did in essence…took him from 3/4 slot up to a full over the top delievery. Then tried to teach him a 12-6 curveball because it would fit his new delivery more, and told him not to throw his slider. The result in his words: “I was at 90 to 93 with a crappy curveball and a changeup I couldn’t locate,” he said shortly after his major-league debut. “There were times I went out there and felt like I was pitching with someone else’s mechanics and someone else’s repertoire.”
I hope he doesn’t get hurt too, of course. But Marc has a point in that bringing up the Bard starter/reliever issue and not bringing the change in mechanics is pretty silly.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 20, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
That's true
But if he gets tired around 60 innings, even if he does get stretched out as a starter we’re looking at what? 120, 140 innings before he gets fatigued?
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 20, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe?
Different regimen for throwing. And maybe it’s 150 innings or so this year, in his first attempt at starting, a la Alexi Ogando in Texas. Maybe it’s 185, like Matt Harrison. We really won’t know until it goes down. But, at the least. if Aceves is in the bullpen, he can be something of a tandem starter with Bard for a bit, like he was for Wakefield. Except, you know, Bard is good.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 20, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Harrison is probably not a fair comparison
as he was a starter most of his career, just had missed some time in the last couple years
I should point out here
That while I completely am fine with them giving Bard a shot, that I would much rather they go out and get two guys who can go(have gone) 150+ innings because of what you say. I had similar thoughts about Bedard. If they get him in the rotation, great but I hope they don’t go into the season expecting more than 120-130 innings out of him. I don’t expect much more out of Bard so I hope the team isn’t content with penciling him in as a #4 all season. (For the record I don’t think they are content with that) I would still like to see Bard stretched out because we always have pitching injuries. And if the top 3 guys can’t get consistently into the 7th, then we will need another Aceves-type guy who can go 2+ innings.
As far as his September struggles and how much fatigue played into it, I don’t know the answer to that or how it should affect his projections.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 20, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
The Sox have changed a few pitcher's mechanics in their day
Some return to form fine (Bard), others are Craig Hansen. I don’t think it’s always in the team’s best interest to mess with success.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 20, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Bard + Hansen / 2 =
Not good.
The Year of Extreme Opinions
"It is so on that things have now become very much like Donkey Kong."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 20, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
On Cherington...
I generally stay away from the Mothership and consume more worthy sites, such as this one, but I have enjoyed Jaz’s work.
I just wonder, could ANY analysis on Cherington’s moves so far as a GM be summed up with a simple phrase so many smart baseball people employ…
Small sample size.
We’re talking about a couple moves here. It’s like a good (or bad) three game stretch for a hitter.
Seriously.
Wait for the whole offseason to be over before you call the whole offseason a failure.
by abbreviatedman on Dec 20, 2011 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
But we need analysis NOW...
… and we only have the SSS to analyze.
I kid, of course.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Your analysis is ass-backwards
The value of anything that can be traded or sold is how much someone else is willing to give in exchange — NOT how much value you place on it.
It’s true the Red Sox didn’t place much value on Lowrie and Weiland but that is NOT the measure of their value.
The proper measure is how much a trade partner values them. If other teams believe Lowrie is a starting SS and Weiland a good reliever at potential back-end starter, then that is their value.
You could argue other teams don’t value Lowrie and Weiland in that way but you don’t – you simply argue they have little value to the Red Sox, which is really besides-the point. If that is the way Cherington approached trade talks — and I’m not saying he did — than Red Sox fans have cause to worry.
That's a fair point (though there is probably a nicer way to put it).
In response, I’d say that “starting shortstop” can have a different value from team to team. The starting shortstop on the Astros, for example, is a different thing than the starting shortstop on the Yankees. If Lowrie were on the Yankees, he’d be a bench player or possibly even non-tendered if he couldn’t be traded. On the Astros he’s the starter. Those are obviously two extremes but I believe that illustrates the point. A player’s value isn’t static from team to team. Indeed, this trade also illustrates that point. To the Astros, Lowrie is a starting shortstop and Weiland is a fourth or fifth starter. I’m not sure they are anything close to that on most teams. Certainly not the Red Sox. Thus the trade.
To address your point better though, I don’t think there are a lot of teams on which Lowrie is a starting shortstop. If there were, I’d expect the Red Sox to get a bit more than Melancon (though I think Melancon is a pretty good get). If anything, the Red Sox lost the deal on the margins. But look at it this way. They dealt 3 years of Lowrie and 6 years of Weiland for 5 years of Melancon, a bit of room under the luxury tax, and a spot on the 40 man roster.
As for a cause to worry, well, Red Sox fans don’t really need a cause, do we? But beyond that, neither you nor I know what Cherington was offered around the league for Lowrie. Maybe there was something better than Melancon. In any case, it’s undoubtedly true that neither Lowrie nor Weiland had much of a role on the 2012 Red Sox. Melancon does.
Writer at Over The Monster. Follow me on Twitter! It'll be super awesome fun! @mattymatty2000
by Matthew Kory on Dec 21, 2011 1:41 AM EST up reply actions
Lowrie will be valued differently by different clubs
His value is ultimately what the team whom values him most is willing to trade. My only point was that in deciding what that value might be, it is irrelevant what value the Sox placed on Lowrie, or at least, it should be. If I buy a new car ( or a less used car) and no longer have need for the car I’m driving now, surely I would be getting poor value if I decided my asking price base on the car’s value to me, since the value is negligible. I would instead base the value on what I think others will value the car.
As for what Lowrie is or isn’t, the only thing that is crystal clear is that Cherington traded him when his value to other teams was at a low point — flash back to last off-season or even last April and he would have been a player in much greater demand — after all, he blistered the ball in 2010, showing great plate discipline, good contact skills and outstanding power for a middle infielder. In return, Cheringtom received a player whose value was at a high point because he saved some games the last half of 2011. While I appreciate it’s not always possible to sell high and buy low, the Lowrie trade represented the opposite and Red Sox fans can only happen it doesn’t happen with regularity.
you're correct, in a way
for one thing, it is only selling low and buying high assuming that Lowrie, in fact, remains a starting shortstop and that Melancon is not as good in the future as he was this year- which are both far from a given.
It’s a lot easier for a team like the Astros to buy low and sell high because they can afford to run out a player who might be awful everyday if that player has the upside of being a good player. It’s much harder for the Red Sox- in your example, had Theo traded Lowrie in April of last year, there would have been an absurd outpouring of hatred- because IF Lowrie is that player who can hit 25 home runs, a million doubles, and walks a lot, he is too valuable to the team to trade. It’s the same reason why the team won’t “sell high” on Ellsbury as a few people here have suggested- it’s nearly impossible to match up on a team, as is would need to be a team who needs a good position player to compete this year badly enough to give up a pitcher good enough to dramatically improve our chances this year.
So I don’t really think that analysis is fair. To my eyes, he gave us a lot more comfort in the bullpen without trading away pieces that will dramatically hurt the team- and that is what the team needs. It’s not necessarily feasible to hang onto players until their value increases when the offseason is the best time to improve the team.
Well said.
This, I think, is why I keep lamenting this deal.
If Lowrie really was so lowly valued by the rest of the league, then we should have kept him.
I do hope Melancon works out (and expect that he will), but it doesn’t make me like giving Lowrie away in this deal any more.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
The Blue Jays traded for a higher-ceiling reliever and only gave up one pitching prospect
They did so by trading a prospect coming off a year when his numbers far exceeded most expectations — they traded high.
The Red Sox traded a shortstop who had been sky high until May of this year and a prospect who struggled this year — they traded low.
Now which approach do you think will lead to better long-term success?
I have a few problems with that post
First, in what way is Santos a higher ceiling reliever than Melancon? Melancon is younger, much much cheaper, and has put up better numbers through the minors. Melancon’s numbers in the minors indicate that his results this year are not unexpected.
Secondly, Nestor Molina is probably a more likely major league contributor than either Weiland or Lowrie. Probably likely to be a bullpen piece, but a good one
Thirdly, it’s hardly selling low on Weiland- this wasn’t a down year. In the minors, this is the first year that he’s actually impressed as a prospect. Before that, he was pretty much an afterthought- certainly no one thought he had any potential to actually be a contributing member of the starting rotation before his 2011.
Not too many people would chose Melancon over Santos
(1) Santos was until 2009 a shortstop (and former 1st round selection). In 2009 he pitched for the first time in the minors and showed such potential he needed only 57 inning to make it to the majors. By contrast, Melancon needed 216 innings over four seasons, with one lost ti injury, to make it. So while Santos is about 21 months older, that’s because he spent his first seven professional years as a shortstop.
(2) Here’s a comparison of their stats from 2011:
k-rate bb-rate x-FIP FB WAR
Santos 13.07 4.12 2.69 95.3 1.6
Melancon 7.99 3.15 3.14 92.7 0.8
(3) Santos relies on a fastball and slider that were both among the league’s best in 2011 as measured by value at Fangraphs and pitch-FX. His k-rate was the 3rd best on the majors and his swinging-strike rate was 10th best in the A.L. He has t he dominate stuff of a top-flight closer even though he had almost no minor league experience.
(4) Melancon throws a fastball just over half the time but its value was at or below league average depending on whose measure you use. He head an effective slider and cutter and produced a high ground ball rate. With his mediocre power pitches he profiles as a good middle reliever.
(5) Melancom lost a year to Tommy John surgery, and while that’s less troubling than a shoulder injury, it’s something worth mentioning.
(6) Nestor Molina has pitched 22 inning above A-ball. But you think he’s more likely to contribute this year than Lowrie and Weiland?? No one projects Molina to get more than a cup of coffee in September. As for Wieland, he was rated a B- prospect by John Sickels in 2009, which coincidently matches the highest mark he gave to Melancon. His 2008 season was excellent, striking out 5 times as many as he walked with an ERA of 1.50. His 2009 numbers are roughly equivalent to what he did in 2011 in the minors. His one down year was 2010, so it’s not true he just appeared on the prospect radar. What is true is that he was given a chance to start four The Sox and got handed his lunch, which did little to enhance his trade value.
heh there's a few spots there you're definitely right
I was mis-reading Santos’ age and thought he was 31.
I didn’t ever say that Melancon now was better than Santos now. But I think if you’re talking about ceiling, you’re underselling Melancon. Melancon certainly doesn’t profile as a crazy swinging strikeout guy like Santos, but is a groundball pitcher who can get strikeouts quite effectively and has good control.
TJS isn’t really a worry these days. Pretty much everyone gets it at some point. People are getting it in high school all the time.
I wasn’t saying that Molina strikes me as more likely to contribute in the majors in 2012. Just over his career.
Weiland’s value at the end of 2011 was clearly higher than his value at the end of 2010, when pretty much no one thought he’d contribute as a starter.
The White Sox apparently for what ever reason did not shop Santos around the league. They simply took what Toronto offered and closed the deal. There was some consternation around the league because of that. Supposedly the Red Sox and a few other teams would have had interest had they known Santos was available, but Kenny Williams being Kenny Williams didn’t ask anyone else.
My point: I’m not sure you can compare the overall league-wide value of the two relievers in this instance because one of the players was not presented to the league for evaluation.
Writer at Over The Monster. Follow me on Twitter! It'll be super awesome fun! @mattymatty2000
by Matthew Kory on Dec 22, 2011 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
It is a mark of a good GM to scoop up a player in a trade that other GMs assumed wasn’t available. You fail to ask at your own peril. Certainly everyone believed Chicago was looking to blow up their team to start re-building. It was a mistake not to inquire about all players and not assume Santos was unavailable because he was team-controlled with a reasonable contract.
Cherington wasn’t alone in making that mistake but he lost out to a division rival whose GM is showing himself to be one of the best in the league.
I agree Toronto probably got Santos for less than his true value for the reasons you mentioned. That said, that’s a marker of a goof GM.
Then by your own admission, most other GMs are goof GMs. I’m sorry, but I’m not buying that. You can’t call every GM and keep tabs on every single player every single day. Kenny Wililams does what Kenny Williams does and if he happened to be on the phone with Alex Anthopoulos at the time then good for Alex Anthopoulos, but I’m not sure it has much to do with either Anthopoulos’ or Cherington’s acumen at their jobs.
Writer at Over The Monster. Follow me on Twitter! It'll be super awesome fun! @mattymatty2000
by Matthew Kory on Dec 23, 2011 1:46 AM EST up reply actions

by 






























