Red Sox "In" On Gio Gonzalez; Why This Might Not Be Great
According to Danny Knobler, the Red Sox are one of the teams still in on Gio Gonzalez. The others are the Tigers, Rangers, and Blue Jays, though it's not likely all of these teams have the players to make a Gonzalez deal work, as the A's asking price is higher than Gio's walk rates.
The Athletics reportedly asked the Miami Marlins for Mike Stanton in exchange for Gonzalez. The same Mike Stanton who, as a 21-year-old in a park that favors pitchers, hit .262/.356/.557 with 34 homers at an average distance of 415 feet. All but two of his homers would have been gone in more than half of the stadiums in the majors, and 21 of 34 would have been out in every single one. That's impressive, especially when you consider the whole 21 years old thing, and the fact Petco Park is a place that exists among those 30 parks.
None of the Sox, Rangers, Jays, or Tigers have a Mike Stanton, meaning they would need to create a package of prospects and young players with little service time in order to acquire Gonzalez. There is no denying he is talented, but it's likely he won't be worth the cost of any trade that satisfies the A's. That's their right, too, as they have no incentive to trade Gonzalez other than that they can, and someone might be desperate enough to help the A's out in the future in exchange for a Gio today.
In his last two years, Gonzalez has struck out 8.2 batters per nine, walked 4.1 per nine (2.0 K/BB), and posted an ERA of 3.17. Those are all impressive figures, but they can't just be taken at face value. Gonzalez pitches in the AL West, in one of the game's better pitcher parks. In 2010, they ranked third in the majors for easiest opponents in 2010, two spots behind the Rangers, and two in front of the Angels. Gonzalez ranked 126 out of 147 starting pitchers that year in terms of the quality of his opponents, as they amassed an OPS of 749. Compare that to David Price, who led the majors at 778 thanks to pitching in the AL East.
As for the home park: Gonzalez has 273 innings in Oakland and 262 on the road in his career. The results:
| I | Split | GS | IP | H | HR | BB | SO | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Home | 3.56 | 45 | 273.0 | 235 | 29 | 135 | 252 | 1.355 | 8.3 | 1.87 | |
| Away | 4.32 | 44 | 262.1 | 256 | 26 | 129 | 259 | 1.468 | 8.9 | 2.01 |
There is a three-fourths of a run difference between his home and road ERA, and while that stat itself isn't everything, you can see where that would be an issue for someone with his K/BB ratio and walk rates. Gonzalez led the AL in walks allowed in 2011, and actually had one fewer than he had handed out the year prior.
He doesn't give up many homers, given he is a groundball-oriented pitcher. And, as hard as it is to believe, those grounders are part of what separates him from someone like Daisuke Matsuzaka, in terms of overall production. No, really:
| Pitcher | K/9 | BB/9 | K/BB | HR/9 | ERA | GB% | FIP |
| Daisuke Matsuzaka | 8.2 | 4.4 | 1.89 | 0.9 | 4.25 | 36% | 4.26 |
| Gio Gonzalez | 8.6 | 4.4 | 1.94 | 0.9 | 3.93 | 48% | 4.06 |
Gio is left-handed, Dice-K right-handed, but those career numbers are a lot closer than you might have guessed three rows and eight columns ago. They even occurred in similar inning samples (535 for Gonzalez, 622 for Dice-K). It would be misleading to just leave those there without some further analysis, though.
Gonzalez is trending better than Matsuzaka is at the moment, in part because Gonzalez is 26 years old and likely entering his prime, whereas Matsuzaka is at the end of a long-term deal and recovering from Tommy John surgery. Of course, Matsuzaka's numbers are that close to Gio's despite throwing all of those innings the last two years while dealing with injuries, so things aren't that cut-and-dry in either direction.
Gonzalez would work a bit better than someone like Dice-K in the AL East, thanks to being left-handed and those groundball tendencies, but the fit in terms of results is close enough to make you wonder about whether the price for Gonzalez helps anyone but the A's out in the long run.
This isn't to say that Gonzalez is bad; rather, it's that Gonzalez is a bit overrated thanks to context, and Matsuzaka underrated for the same reason. A healthy Dice-K would be a hell of a pitcher in Oakland, just like Gonzalez has been the last few years. (Admit it; he aggravates you (and me) to no end, but you know it's true.)
Whoever gets Gonzalez, if he is in fact dealt, is going to be pleased, of course. Gonzalez misses bats, induces grounders, and has proven durable over the last few years. But if the price is anything like what it has been rumored to be, many teams in the running for his services might be better off sitting tight until (or if) Billy Beane drops his demands.
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I get the feeling Beane asked for Stanton
Because he often asks for guys he probably knows he has no chance at getting. But you have to guage the stupidity/intelligence of opposing executives. For all we know his request could’ve been akin to “What else would it take in addition to Gio to get Mike Stanton.” Unless I missed a quote of Beane’s somewhere I suppose it could be a possibility. That way you see if Stanton is truly untouchable as he probably should be.
You’re right, Beane will probably get a good package because he doesn’t NEED to trade him. And you’re right, Gio’s tendencies do mean you need to think twice. At the same time, I think this is the price of young, cost-controlled, good/decent starting pitching.
Without seeing who would actually have to be included from the Sox farm club I can’t really say whether it would be worth it. But of potential pitchers to be available via trade, he would be a good #4 even if he is a little overpriced.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 14, 2011 11:07 AM EST reply actions
As long as we deal from our strengths (OF, 3B)
then I think our system can handle the loss. Not sure what that would mean
Dealing from third
Would mean there is no Youkilis replacement on hand at Triple-A anymore. Now, that’s not necessarily a terrible thing, given hey, you do get Gio, but it’s also not my favorite thing.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 14, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
This would imply that Middelbrooks is dealt
which would be surprising given Beane’s penchant for patient hitters. Vitek, Cecchini on the other hand……
In my opinion.
If they got Gio would be ecstatic. Not really. But he can’t be as bad as John Lackey was last year can he?
Gio's ERA away from Oakland is 4.32
but his FIP is 3.97 and his xFIP is 3.90. With a nearly 50% GB rate and a K/BB of 2, I’d be absolutely okay having him on the team. If we’re able to get him without giving up Lavarnway, who, in my opinion, is the most important prospect in the system right now, I would do that.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
NO
…too pricey…and O-A-K-L-A-N-D dimensions>>>>>>>> Fenway
"You're either carrying a spear, or running from it"
by BigSpearDiplomacy on Dec 14, 2011 11:44 AM EST reply actions
Based on FIP and xFIP
Gonzalez is actually BETTER away from Oakland than he is in the Coliseum
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
Actually
he also has a better K rate, better K/BB, and better HR/9. All with a higher BABIP and a lower LOB %
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
Plus
I feel like any pitcher on the market (trade or free agent) moving from where they are now to Fenway and the AL East will be a risk.
Oswalt, Maholm, Garland, Kuroda, etc are coming from the NL. Gio, McCarthy, etc are coming from a pitcher’s park division. etc. Sure it would be nice (And I know/think you agree) that it would be great to get a guy like Marcum who HAS pitched in the division before.) But not a alot of guys fit that description.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 14, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
Right
and to get a pitcher who performs better away from Oakland would be awesome.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Well Rosenthal apparently tweeted something about the below.
The Red Sox acquired reliever Mark Melancon from the Astros for shortstop Jed Lowrie and starter Kyle Weiland, tweets Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick first tweeted that Weiland was traded in a deal that involved a reliever going to Boston
Not sure I like this…
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 14, 2011 11:52 AM EST reply actions
I really, really don't like that
Weiland would have been better than Melancon by himself, we already have a bullpen.
This screams “Bard is a starter” at me, and it’s making me like this team less and less.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
You
don’t know if Weiland would have amounted to a hill of beans. Melancon,at least has shown he can do it.Not only is he cheap,but he fills a role that the team knew had to be filled. Bard,hopefully, will remain we has been as setup man, and they will go after Darvish
They didn't even bid on Darvish
Bard will be a better closer than Melancon, but both would be perfectly fine in that role.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Melancon is fine
But that price is too high says I.
I don’t like this move.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 14, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
I think Melancon will be fine
And he is cheap and under control for several years. I just figured Lowrie could’ve been coupled with a couple prospects to bring in some sort of starter. Maybe this speaks to how other front offices valued Lowrie, as in not as high as we may have thought.
It is a pretty high cost considering Weiland might (as TLD said) been as good as Melancon.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 14, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Right, Lowrie's value must've been very low that he had to be packaged for a reliever
Surprised it’s that low honestly. Know he got hurt yet again, but he hit like gangbusters at the beginning of the year.
Makes me wonder what Reddick’s trade value actually is.
Also think we traded for Melancon a guy who could be Melancon but isn’t yet.
On the other hand, we did actually save money with this move.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 14, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Right up until we replaced Lowrie with Punto.
I know, I know… beating this one to death, but I do think we overpaid for Melancon.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
If he's closer, I think we come out a little better
If he doesn’t close it’s an overpay.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
We shall see what Lowrie does in 2012.
I still maintain the “hot streak” in April 2011 suggests that his wrist injury was healed, and the freak nerve bruise on a collision with Crawford derailed another season.
If he stays healthy and puts up a great season for the Astros, won’t we all think it was an overpay? I keep pointing out a lot of people in here would have believed trading Ellsbury for a #4 SP last December would have been a great move… of course, you don’t hear them saying that after his 2011 performance.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
The only way I will like this move
Is if Melancon morphs into Johnny Venters overnight.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 15, 2011 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, this is a terrifying point.
And if Lowrie can play a full season, he most likely will put up good numbers. He hasn’t though, he’s a streaky hitter and they got at least some value for him.
Melancon is way better than Weiland.
Look at his numbers last year. He’s a good middle reliever.
I’ll miss Lowrie,and he has upside if he ever stays healthy, but while it’s possible we’ll miss him after Scutaro leaves (and Iglesias isn’t ready yet, if ever), he didn’t have any place on this team but as a backup. The bullpen is an area of need.
Add in the fact that Lowrie had three arb years left versus Melancon’s five years left, two at the minimum, and this is overall an okay move in a vacuum and a good move given the Sox roster.
by abbreviatedman on Dec 14, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Sox trade Lowrie and Weiland
..for the Yanks 9th round 2006 pick.
Based on one good year of relief work. In the NL Central.
Buy high Sox! Buy high!
It's not a good move given the Sox roster
we traded two prospects for a reliever. A young reliever who is moving from the NL Central to the AL East. This is even worse than the Shoppach deal.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Right, Lowrie is an arbitration eligible utility player who has extreme hot streaks
and extreme injury problems
Lowrie provided almost twice as much WAR in 55 games of 2010
…then Mark did all last year.
On the premise that
Lowrie is a better third baseman than Aviles to back up a Youk injury, this trade implies that the FO has faith in Middlebrooks to develop quickly in AAA, as well as Tejeda and Iglesias. Lowrie/Aviles gave the Sox a superior IF bench while the prospects were developing, so perhaps the Sox are finally trusting the kids. If so, that is progress.
I know Beane isn't stupid... but...
Why not make a deal centered around Youkilis?
He may not be the young talented player Oakland is seeking, but Billy Beane wanted Youk years ago, and I wouldn’t mind letting him go in a trade.
I don’t know what else it would take, but Youk+ for Gio?
The Red Sox suck, and I am the dirt that was sucked in, I am a dirty.
I'm narcissistic, nihilistic, and arrogant. That's me in a nutshell.
Youk isn't in any way a thing Beane wants anymore
he wanted him years ago because he was a highly underappreciated resource. Now he isn’t. Now he makes something like a quarter of the A’s payroll, at a time when they’re only trying to acquire cheap players who will help them compete in 3-4 years, when they think they’ll be in a new ballpark.
no, he can't
he’s certainly not a bad pitcher, however you spin it. Maybe just an overrated pitcher. The question is- his prospect cost will be huge; is he good enough to be worth it. If we’re just looking for someone more effective than John Lackey was last year, we can just sign Jonathan Van Every as a starter and be done with it.
I know. I was joking.
Wih the cost I don’t want Gio. My point was for this year, if we sign somebody or acquire somebody via Trade, as log as they aren’t horrible, the Sox will be better, and that’s all I care about.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 15, 2011 1:12 PM EST up reply actions

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