Red Sox To Sign Kelly Shoppach
According to Jerry Crasnick, the Red Sox will announce the signing of Kelly Shoppach later today. Shoppach, who would be in his second stint with Boston, hit just .185/.285/.340 with the Tampa Bay Rays the last two years.
As a low-average, walks-oriented catcher with occasional pop, this poor performance in Tampa Bay shouldn't be a huge surprise. Tropicana is not friendly to either righties or lefties, and it is death for righties like Shoppach in terms of doubles and homers. Fenway is much better to right-handed hitters in terms of power, as it's the most double-friendly park in the majors, so Shoppach should rebound somewhat even if nothing changes in terms of his approach.
The major issue with Shoppach is that he strikes out a ton. When Shoppach signed with the Rays two years ago, a swing full of holes was his primary problem. After striking out 34 percent of the time while with the Rays, it's clear that trend hasn't slowed in any meaningful way. Defensively, he's likely about average -- last year he set a career-high for throwing runners out, at 41 percent, but that might not have been entirely his doing, as former Rays' blogger and current Baseball Prospectus author R.J. Anderson explained:
When the Rays acquired Shoppach from the Indians in late 2009, he carried an all-bat, no-glove reputation. Two seasons later, some regard Shoppach as a defensive wonder. What changed? Better coaching, more practice, or a combination thereof? Neither. Shoppach benefitted from being Shields's personal catcher for most of the season, and by being on the same team as John Jaso and Robinson Chirinos. Shields owns a brilliant pickoff move (nailing 12 runners by himself this season) that shuts down the running game.
The pickoffs themselves aren't fueling Shoppach, but runners keeping it closer to first for fear of being caught by Shields does make Shoppach's job that much easier.
The Red Sox are getting a new backup catcher who can throw out some runners, hit for a bit of power, and will strike out often. Essentially, Boston is getting Jason Varitek, but eight years younger, and with an arm that still works behind the plate.
This likely means it's the end for the 40-year-old Jason Varitek in Boston. While he was no longer much help throwing out runners, and platoon splits limited his effectiveness at the plate, he did have a productive and lengthy career for the Red Sox. Remember him for the version that helped the Red Sox win a pair of World Series titles, not the later iteration that might have struggled to throw out some of our readers during attempts to steal second. (Okay, the authors, too.)
This also means Ryan Lavarnway might be spending the 2012 season in Pawtucket, continuing to work on his defense. There is no huge rush for Lavarnway to join the major league club immediately, given Jarrod Saltalamacchia was tendered a contract and David Ortiz accepted arbitration to be the team's designated hitter. Shoppach is also just expendable enough that Lavarnway can push him aside in the future, if his progress in Triple-A merits this course of action.
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Shoppach may be expendable, his $1.35M is not
He can’t pitch and we had a viable backup to Salty already, not a fan of the move.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Emphasis on "HE CAN'T PITCH"
What the fuck Cherington?
Buchanan for GM, 2012.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
Neither can any of the other non-pitchers on the roster
Would you hate this move less if they signed a pitcher first? Because the order doesn’t actually matter.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 13, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
If this ~1.5mil
cuts into the budget to get us pitching, then yes. Order matters, and yes, I would hate this move less.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Let's at least wait until that time, then
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 13, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
probably it doesn't
I don’t think that all of a sudden they’re not going to get a pitcher because they signed freaking Kelly Shoppach. I think probably it means that they view Lavarnway as either part of a trade for a pitcher or as someone who needs to be hitting every day, and that they were going to sign a backup catcher either way. Can’t get one too much cheaper than $1.35 million, and Shoppach should play relatively well at Fenway. Shoppach is probably essentially a cheaper Varitek who can actually last being a backup for an entire season.
I’m sure Beckett is pissed though.
This all makes sense to me.
I actually think it’s probably a better move for us than playing Lavarnway there. If Lavarnway really breaks out in Pawtucket, both Shoppach and Salty can be pushed out of the way.
And, of course, I’m still dying for us to sign some damn pitching!!
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Order matters less in the offseason though
Shoppach was ready to sign now, for little money.
Kuroda and all the other FA pitchers haven’t indicated they’re ready to sign quite yet it seems. One doesn’t have to affect the other.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
And maybe they want to trade a catcher, and are just suplementing the depth in the organization.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
this
Was my thought. And in that case order IS important. Securing Shopach now (while he is available still) may enable trading Salty or Lavy for pitching later. It would suck to hesitate and miss on a deal later because you didn’t have the depth to make the trade.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
by mmmmm on Dec 13, 2011 2:07 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
I'm not saying I'm 100% against this signing
but if it’s true that we only have $6-8M to play around with, our back-up, sub-Mendoza catcher just ate up about 20% of it.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I posted more than this below
but I’m posting it again:
Shoppach career line against lefties: .274/.371/.536/.901
Those numbers aren’t going to go DOWN as a right handed hitter with pop at Fenway. If Shoppach is used properly, he can be a huge asset to the team. If he’s used as one pitcher’s personal catcher, he’s probably a mendoza-esque catcher, if he’s used properly, he can be very valuable.
I would still hate this move if they signed a pitcher, because they'd still need another one
And we don’t need another catcher. And the order does matter on this budget, when I get my paycheck, I pay the bills first before I go order the newest video game. Pitching is the bills, Shoppach is the video game.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Lavarnway's defense isn't major league ready yet
And he still hasn’t had an opportunity to catch every day. Signing Shoppach allows him to work on both of those items, so Boston better knows what they have in him.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 13, 2011 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
I don't buy the logic
that they should hold off on doing anything non-pitching related until they sign pitchers. The organization isn’t being run by the seat of their pants- they aren’t going to be saying “DAMN, we could’ve gotten THIS pitcher if only we had that extra $1 million!” They’ll just go over the limit by $1 million if it comes to it.
They’re well aware that pitching is our greatest need, and you can rest assured that they already have budgeted out the amount of money they have to spend on it. Just because it hasn’t been spent yet doesn’t mean that this money is coming from the same place.
by wolf9309 on Dec 13, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
As far as I'm concerned
Pitching is the ONLY need this team has. Positionally we’re set I feel, I’m 100% fine with Reddick in RF with our prospects behind him and Darnell as our RH bat. I was also fine with letting Lavarnway sit behind Salty. Any piece other than Ortiz returning I think would have been superfluous.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I don't see the need for Shoppach, even if Lavarnway's defense isn't all the way ready yet
I would rather have him playing in Fenway than waste nearly a quarter of the roughly 8 million we have budgeted for this offseason on a player we don’t really need.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
Be honest: 1.35 isn’t “nearly a quarter” of 8.
by textandaction on Dec 13, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Closer to 15%.
Of 8.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
And completely ignores the idea that it's still $1.35 million.
After all, if we have $8 million budgeted for pitching, and spent $1.35 million here… and we go over budget by $1.35 million… we pay the tax on $1.35 million… so what, $500k?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
It's percentage of a budget that I'm concerned about.
If you’re gobbling up 15-20% of your budget on a back-up catcher with the holes we have in the rotation and pen, then it’s an issue. If, as is now being reported, they’re a planning on going over “budget”, then maybe it’s less of an issue.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I agree with you... reason for concern.
I don’t trust them either… but until it’s all said and done (or they say: we’ve spent the budget, no more moves), and they are still under the LT threshold, we won’t really know.
So, I’m reserving judgement for now.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I would say
This means the Red Sox don’t want Lavarnway to back up, they want him ready to play every day, or playing every day.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 13, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
I just don't think they have the luxury to make that decision.
We don’t need another catcher, we can make do with what we have, we need another pitcher because we cannot make do with what we have.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Well c'mon
Let’s be fair. They are being budget conscious, but it’s not a ton of money, and I’m sure the calculator in the front office works.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 13, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
To a payrole of $160+ million dollars, no it's not
But to the available amount of money to spend this off-season, $1M IS a lot unfortunately.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
The calculator in the front office was missing a couple of buttons
when Lackey and Crawford were signed. Or Okajima, for that matter.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Or Cameron
Or Jenks
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
If Cameron's abdomen hadn't been ripped open
To the point he needed a three-hour-plus surgery to fix it, that contract would have worked out a whole lot differently. And c’mon, Jenks is basically legally dead.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 13, 2011 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
How many late-30 somethings don't have random injuries?
He was a late 30 something, and that was a stupid deal.
$1.5 million is not a luxury signing
Carlos Beltran would be a luxury signing. For the benefit of his long term development the Sox decided Lavarnway should be the primary catcher in AAA until they deem him ready for the majors.
I really don’t have a problem with this signing at all.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
With our budget and our needs, I think it is.
Last year was part of his long-term development and he still split time with Expo, he’ll split time with him again I’m sure, he’d split time with Salty too, I don’t think he’d end up with much more game experience in AAA compared to MLB.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I think Lavarnway gets the majority of starts in AAA this year
Expo is falling down in terms of being an actual prospect.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
Beltran IMO would have been a sign of gross incompetence if they signed him.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Exactly my point
They didn’t sign Beltran. They signed a complimentary piece for something like 1/30th of what Beltran will likely end up with. That’s what they should be doing with a limited budget. I’m perfectly fine with spending a little bit of the budget on complimentary offensive pieces as long as the majority of the budget goes towards pitching.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think we needed anything complimentary there
Spending any /30th of what we could’ve paid Beltran wasn’t a move that needed to be made.
People go on and on about this need of a RH complimentary bat, but as a top 5 team in all of baseball against lefties last season, I greatly, greatly question the need at all of adding a RH bat, it seems to me it’d be done just for the sake of doing it, which isn’t really a reason to do anything. Especially this offseason.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I think getting a few complimentary pieces is exactly what this team needed to do
So I kinda like the move.
I didn’t think all 100% of the budget absolutely HAD to be spent on pitching either.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Beltran's going to get $30 million??
Actually, more, if $1.35 million is only 1/30th of Beltran’s 2012 salary…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
If that's the case
We have another catcher in AAA we can use as a backup and let Lavarnway start in AAA
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
does this change your opinion at all?
Shoppach career line against lefties: .274/.371/.536/.901
vs. righties: .201/.287/.360/.647
Saltalamacchia line against lefties: .207/.263/.342/.605
vs. righties: .265/.331/.441/.772
it kinda makes sense.
Not really, it's nice to have a guy who can hit lefties
but not at the cost of not being able to sign two decent 4/5 pitchers.
We have plenty of offense, we don’t really need any more. We need pitching, and lots of it.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
I view it as a replacement for the million or so we were gonna spend on a complementary outfield bat
just keep McDonald and Aviles, who is spending the winter playing outfield in winter ball.
Again, we have plenty of offense, even against Lefties
we need pitching, and basically only pitching.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
again, $1 million is not going to stop us from getting a pitcher
and a cheap complementary bat is something that has been greatly needed. Not an expensive one, a cheap one. Like Shoppach.
There is nothing more boring or depressing...
than reading this kind of comment after the Sox finally do something with the offseason. I am not worried about 1.3 mil
There is nothing mroe boring or depressing...
Than this being “the Sox finally do(ing) something with the offseason”. With our budget, I am worried about that amount.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I mean it's the first thing they've done,
and it’s relatively interesting. Plus I’m not sure you’re right about what our budget is.
From what Speier posted today
They are between $8 and $3M away from the $178 threshold in AAV and don’t want to go very far over it to avoid a big penalty. If they’re closer to $8, fine, but if they’re at the $3 than this is a bad deal.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
We have between 8 and 15 million to spend
This was a bad move that took up more of that money than it should have.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Well if its 8 then yeah
but is its 15 million then 1.35 still leaves you with 13.65 million which should be plenty enough to get what we need – back end rotation help and pen help
I've heard both numbers thrown around a lot
so I’m guessing the true number is around 10-11 million.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
We won't know the real number until much later
The FO know they need pitching, but as far as I’m aware the Shoppach deal hasn’t prevented us from signing a pitcher yet.
Man, who would have thought a ~$1.3 million one year deal in mid-December would freak out so many people.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
In an offseason where not a lot of moves are going to be made
And there are only a couple of moves that HAVE to be made with a limited amount of money to do so, every move we make that isn’t one we HAVE to make, is a waste and I reserve the right to be unhappy with it.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
what if Lavarnway is part of a trade for a pitcher?
we certainly aren’t gonna spend the year with Expo as a backup catcher. Shoppach costs less than $1 million over that.
It'd better be a damn good pitcher
Because of Lavarnway’s position and ceiling he is one of the few prospects I wouldn’t trade unless the return is great.
I’d be fine with Expo as backup, over 60-70 games I don’t think one or the other can cause too much damage or that much good.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Agreed
Like, Gio or Marcum level of pitcher.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
Suzuki is nothing particularly special
I seem to remember they have a catching prospect who is though… can’t think of the name
Maybe Youk, and Lavarnway
for Marcum and Hart. Not the best trade idea since the Brewers have Lucroy.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Brewers have said
they already have spent more money this offseason than they intended and nothing else big is happening. They don’t want Youk.
That's probably true
but I don’t think that means they aren’t still talking to people just to gauge interest. If something they like comes along they could make another move
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
They don't want Youk ?
Don’t you think Youk would be a pretty good replacement for Fielder , at 1st base ? In that indoor park , I bet Youk would hit .315 with 30+ HR’s and 120+ RBI . He is also a damn good , gold glove winning , 1st baseman . He might not be Fielder , but he is about as close as they could possibly hope for at 12mil. per year .
They just gave Aramis Ramirez $12 million a year though
That’s the problem, compounded with K-Rod accepting arbitration and possibly making $13 million.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
How does arbitration work with a trade?
So, once he signs, can the Brewers flip him to a team that wants a closer and is willing to pay $13 million for 2012?
Or does accepting arbitration and getting that contract lock him on to the roster until June or July or something like that?
Just wondering whether we might flip them Lavarnway for K-Rod, or send someone to the Phillies for Madson?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
And I think Youk at 1B might work if we got K-Rod back as part of that deal...
Marcum and K-Rod?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
No.
No no no no no no no no no. No.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Wait, TLD...
Tell me how you really feel.
I totally agree on K-Rod, just stuck with the thread discussing the Brewers and was asking a “what if” on the way aribtration works.
I’d rather have Bard close, and Weiland set up… but it appears the FO doesn’t agree with me.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
The FO seems to be allergic to winning right now.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I don't want K-Rod either.
Just spitballing the idea that might be how we can get a closer out there for a one year deal.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I think if we WERE able to get Marcum somehow
Then it would be easier to get a couple guys to fill the #5 slot and have Bard close. I know he wants to start, but let’s be honest in that I think it is motivated by money. Starters make more than set-up guys and middle relievers.
But I think some recent closer contracts could be brought up to him to show that he can get paid well as a closer too.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 13, 2011 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
I feel like he was talked into "wanting" to start.
He seemed to be quite content in the pen in previous interviews.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Bard was the first one to bring up starting
Back in 2010, after Jenks was signed.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 13, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Right, but at that point...
… it would have looked like there were two “closers” blocking his path to the closer role.
Today, we know that’s not the case. So, I agree with Bloggy… I think they convinced him he should want to start to help this team… and I think it’s worth exploring, and doesn’t hurt us if it doesn’t work out. He’d simply go back to the 8th inning role (assuming we’d gotten another closer for less than a 4/5 starter).
Somewhere on OTM someone posted a horrible Grantland piece about the current “Moneyball inefficiency”… which is the closer role. I know bullpen by committee doesn’t work, but a lot of teams have very successful, cheap closers.
We just need one of those, and spend more money on 4/5, and if Bard gives us SP depth, that’s great… if not, he’s the set up guy and we can move him to closer in 2013.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Bard said he would do what team needs...
He wants to prepare tobe a starter , but will close if that is what the team needs the most . With the Brewers losing both Fielder and Braun , for 50 games , they will need more than just Ramirez to replace that production .
I'm sure in the end he'll do what the team needs
And he is not K-Rod meaning he doesn’t seem to be vocally stubborn about what he wants to do. But if he had the option of all three, I think he would want to start but he would fine with closing too….and would go back to his current role if that is what they needed him to do.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 13, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
Huge Youk fan .
I’ve been a Red Sox fan for 40 years , and am a huge fan o Youk . I also belirve Youk will have a better chance at staying healthy , if he were playing 1st base , in an indoor ballpark .
Also , the Red Sox could get the starter they need , and enough salary relief to be able to sign the other pieces that they need .
So that seems like a good reason for Madson/K-Rod to accept arbitration.
Forces the hand of the team they play for, as neither will really want to have $13 million set up men (or whatever Madson will get)… but is fine too, because the team will receive compensation when they trade them away.
Did Madson accept arbitration too? I guess now I’m confused as to why they wouldn’t just do that, guarantee a big 2012 contract, and try again in FA for 2013… you have to believe both guys will get traded to a team that wants them to close, don’t you?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Not Madson .
Madson turned down arbitration . He wants a multi-year deal . His stuff dropped off at the end of the season last year . Have to wonder if he is having arm issues , and wants the security of a longer contract . 4 years at 10mik. per , will last allot longer than 1year for 13mil.
No Madson didn't
but he’s actually in line for a multi-year deal.
I believe when the Rays got Soriano as a closer a couple years ago, it was a similar situation- he accepted arb when he wasn’t wanted so they traded him
Interesting.
I guess I’m confused as to why Madson thinks he’s going to get the multi-year deal instead of taking the one year at a big pay raise, with a trade.
I mean, I know he almost got an offer from the Phillies for as much money as Papelbon got, but really… are the Sox going to offer him that deal to come to Boston now?? (The original Phillies offer.)
Like I said elsewhere, that Grantland piece shows that closers are the biggest overpaid piece of a MLB team right now, and I believe that data is true. So I really, really hope we don’t sign Madson.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
did you not even read the comment you responded to?
just the last line?
The reason I said they don’t want him is because they’ve already spent more money for the coming season than they had originally intended to. hence, they’re unlikely to take on another $12 million, even if it’s for a great player.
Yes , I read it .
I also know that with the pieces that they would trade away , they would not be on the hook for the whole 12 mil. , and I also read , this morning that they were still considering making an offer to keep Fielder , although they didn’t think they woul be able to offer enogh . A trade like this could solve that problem .
Well if we're trading away Youk for payroll room and for players
and they’re not taking on money for Youk, I don’t understand where Youk’s salary is coming from.
From Tom Hardicourt today:
Melvin, on where #Brewers already are with 2012 payroll: “We’ve stretched it well beyond where we wanted to go.”
from him yesterday:
#Brewers GM Doug Melvin confirms that Ramirez signing officially puts him out on Prince Fielder: “I think Scott (Boras) understand that.”
really?
the guy who put up a .665 OPS in AAA? Who isn’t a good defensive catcher?
I agree, I wouldn’t get rid of Lavarnway unless it’s a very good pitcher. The point being, the outcry against a $1 million signing is just straight up ridiculous without knowing what else is going on. The fact is that Shoppach is a PERFECT complement to Salty, and if they’re primarily used in a straight platoon, he could well put up numbers as good or better than Lavarnway could. This way, Lavarnway gets to keep working on his catching every day.
I reserve final judgement
but express concerns.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
That was a rhetorical question...
Bob and Bloggy know each other very well… EldonD, though, looks new around here.
I’m with you guys, though… looks like a good complimentary piece, so maybe we get the best out of both guys (Shoppach against LHPs, Salty against RHPs), and he replaces Tek (who I am sad to see go, but it was definitely time) but takes on more of a straight platoon role, I hope.
Now, where’s the pitching?!!?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
WE WANT A PITCHER!
NOT A BELLY-ITCHER!
(Haven’t had a chance to use that line since I was 10 years old…)
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
by Bloggy on Dec 13, 2011 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ha ha ha...
I had the flashback myself when I read your post.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Yes I'm new here .....
Was just trying to be funny . Hope I didn’t come off as too much of a smartass . Not trying to offend anyone .
Don't worry, you'll take a few lumps early.
As long as you know what you’re posting about, you’ll be welcomed with open arms. We argue and rip each other frequently, but there’s a lot of mutual respect hidden in there.
There is plenty of room for dissenting opinion in here, which is why you’ll see posts like Sean O’s: “I can’t believe I agree with Lloyd Christmas.” Might be the first time they’ve ever been on the same side of an issue.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Like I said
With the 60-70 games these guys will probably start, I don’t think either will be so bad or so good to have an impact either way.
Plus, Lavarnway has split time his entire career, I don’t think there has been much of an emphasis of getting him catching every single day at any point in his career before, I don’t think there will be now. He’ll split with Expo in Pawtucket and probably end up not a whole lot more experience than he would have gotten as Salty’s backup.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
so the question then is just
what exactly is his defense like, and how much would it hurt us at the major league level?
I'm of the belief that Lavarnway is offensively and defensively ready
I think those reports from 3 years ago aren’t really valid anymore. By the accounts I’ve heard over the last two years, he’s hugely improved at everything. I just think dark cloud of being called ‘the worst catcher ever’ is still hanging over his reputation even if it isn’t remotely true anymore, it’s just one of those marks that takes time to go away because it got people looking only at the negatives of his game rather than the positives.
I don’t think he’s this amazing defensive catcher, but I don’t think it would hurt us in the least, especially if Wake does indeed not return next year.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Let me put it this way
I don’t have a lot of faith in the front office to make the right decisions. They may have seen him more than me, but they don’t have exclusive rights to any and all information, I’ve seen enough to form my opinion of him in public broadcasts and read enough of the reports from other people.
The FO has had 2 major things to accomplish this offseason, the first was to exact compensation for Theo, the second was to hire a manager. The way they’ve gone about doing those two things has really stripped my faith in them, they’ve bungled the Theo negotiations all the way until Christmas at least and by hiring Valentine, they made their GM look impotent (Ben may have wanted Bobby all along, but that isn’t how it appeared to the public).
So, yeah, I question their decision making on this.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Mike Hazen is a big fan of Lavarnway's potential as a defensive catcher
He is one of the assistant GMs. Pretty good chance they asked him what was best for Lavarnway in terms of 2012 and his future.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 13, 2011 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
Well the A's have asked for Montero from the Yankees for Gio.
I would doubt if the Red Sox approached Billy Beane about a trade for Gio, he would completely ignore the fact that we have Lavarnway.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
I could handle a deal like that.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
That's fine
But the rest of us reserve the right to think you’re way overreacting to one small complimentary move.
From the beginning the FO has said they’re not going to stick with only upgrading the pitching this winter. Ben’s gone on record as saying he would like a RH OF bat, that’s going to eat up some of the budget too. They’ll get pitching, they’ll get hitting.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
To be fair, 20% is not small.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Yeah, but is it REALLY 20%?
We won’t know for sure until the offseason is over.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
I've read 6-8 million to play with
and now I’m hearing as high as 15 million. It really depends. If it’s 15, well fine.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I heard 15 when Ortiz accepted art
and 8 more often lately.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
See, no one but the FO knows how much they actually have to spend
And they’ve just spent a bit of it on a backup catcher. I have no problem with this move.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Clearly.
Me, I don’t just simply accept that the FO knows what they need and knows what they’re doing. ESPECIALLY with a newbie GM. I could possibly be okay with this in the future, if the other needs are met satisfactorily.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I think they have a better idea of what they need and what they're doing compared to us fans
Even the enlightened ones that post here.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
Do they?
I mean, we still don’t have compensation for Theo and from the way it looked Valentine wasn’t necessarily our GM’s choice for team manager. I’m afraid there may be too many hands stirring the pot for sound decision making. They may think they have a better idea of what do to, but I lack the faith in them right now to trust them carrying it out effectively.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Honestly. What were you expecting the compensation to be for Theo?
Matt Garza, Starling Castro? Neither of the players will be the compensation. Both sides have said it’s not that important for them to deal with because they have othe major pieces that have to be dealt with, getting a minor leaguer or two in late Dec. or January is going to make or break the Sox off-season.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Personally
I’m simply expecting it to be dealt with. And it ain’t been.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
How do you know it's not being dealt with from the Cubs side?
They don’t have a lot of good minor leaguers right now, so giving them up right now wouldn’t make a lot of sense from their angle.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
I don't really care what makes sense from their angle.
They ended up with our guy.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
It seems like an extremely low priority for both teams
Neither Ben nor Theo really appear to really care. Whoever first said it was going to be “significant compensation” really put his foot in his mouth.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Wouldn't that be our shadow GM?
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Actually that was Larry Lucchino I believe.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
I think that's what he's implying
Lucchino is the man pulling the strings of his puppet Ben, or something like that.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
I hope we don't perpetuate the
Myth that Ben isnt firmly in charge of his spot in the chain of command. For a supposed rookie, he has handled the Ortiz signing, Rich Hill, Matt Albers, the tenders, Kelly Shoppach, Carlson and Rule 5, the crash of September, Winter Meetings, Magadan/Tuck/Bogar issues very well while dealing with Hale, Johnson, Wake, Tek and the medical and training staffs, and international player development, and much more in a very, very short time and during a huge transitiion, and with a small budget. His thoughtful approach is the
approach of a seasoned and successful scout and player development expert who has a room full of experts on one hand and Carmine on the other … And is comfortable with both. If he had the $$ for CJ, Nathan, Beltran would we be singing his praises if he signed them? I doubt it. He has a phenomenal team and a Rays budget and plans to make the most of it, as he wants to win now. He is such a cool hand, i wish his name was Luke. Be patient or go mad, because Ben has a plan and he is sticking to it.
by GerryT on Dec 13, 2011 6:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Oh I know
I merely named him in the role I know him as.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Like Bloggy said
I never expected us to get much for him, but I sure as hell expected to get whatever it was, a long time ago. Whatever it is we get, it likely won’t improve the major league team, and right now it’s just a distraction.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
These franchises are all businesses.
Giving up assets, being major or minor ones, until all proposals are exhausted doesn’t make a lot of sense. We really don’t know who the Cubs would be willing to give us. Maybe they want to try and supplement the a position or two before giving up a prospect that way if they need to make a trade they still have something to deal in the future.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah but what's happening right now, isn't how business is done in MLB
You want something, you have to give up something you’ve got to get it. They wanted Theo, they got Theo and we didn’t get anything yet. Trades have never been a ‘at your leisure’ thing, the deal should have been made before Theo started working for them. If you don’t know what you want or what you want to give up, you say PTBNL and pick from a list in a few months. They haven’t even gotten that far from my understanding.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
You mean like a PTBNL?
Or are those actually named when the deal is finalized, but not announced until later?
(Then again, I recall someone was once traded for a PTBNL and at the end of the season, they were the PTBNL sent back to their original team.)
(Or I could finish reading your post and realize you actually referenced a PTBNL… which is a good point… we should have a list we can pick from, even if they might add someone to it later, right? So if they acquire someone in a trade, and would rather offer that guy to us than the ones on the list, and we want to accept that offer, we could, right?)
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I would imagine that could be worked out
They agree upon a list of players now, with the concession that say Chicago could opt to replace up to say, 2 or 3 names from the list when it comes time to choose. If Player C on the list went from being a C- prospect to having a 1.25 ERA with a 10.0K/9 rate, he obviously doesn’t fit in with what they are offering and can replace him, with maybe a former project who appears to be becoming something and better fits the mold of what we can expect.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
If it doesn't impact the major league roster, why is it such a big deal?
So what they haven’t recieved a couple minor leaguers for Theo yet. We don’t know whether they’ll make it to the Majors anyway. I’d prefer that the Red Sox FO concerns themselves with improving the Major League roster, and when they feel they have done enough with the Major League roster deal with the whole Theo compensation aspect later. I mean let’s say the Cubs trade Matt Garza before the beginning the season. That would yield a huge prospect haul for the Cubs, meaning the Red Sox have a chance to get a better prospect than what they could get now.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
It is because they look like they aren't in control at all.
This should have been a fairly simple transaction that has been drawn on for way too long and has consumed way too many man hours for what it is.
What worries me isn’t the return of the trade, what worries me is how they’re going about making the trade.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I completely disagree.
They wouldn’t have been in control of the negotiations to begin with, unless they demaned the prospect just to let Theo talk to the Cubs. When they didn’t do that, their leverage went down the tubes. I think the fact that this transaction hasn’t happened yet is about the last thing on the Cubs and Red Sox minds right now. They have a lot bigger fish to fry. When it comes time, it will be dealt with. Until than focus on the big club.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
They negotiated themselves into a position of weakness, one of the reasons why I don’t have a lot of faith in them. There are no two ways around it, they’ve really bungled this from the absolute beginning. Which goes back to where this began, I can’t be certain they actually do know what they’re doing right now.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I suspect if Theo told John Henry he wanted to leave, I don't think John Henry would put out a demand that would keep Theo around, which demanding a prospect just to talk him might have done. I think they know what they're doing.
I just think that getting a minor leaguer or two that probably won’t have an impact in the big leagues this year, or ever for that matter, doesn’t keep them up at night. I highly doubt the Red Sox are only focused this issue. specifically. In my opinion, if they don’t get this done until truck day, it’s no sweat off their back. I’d much rather have them exhaust every way to improve the big club and have the low level interns deal with this issue.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
"I think they know what they're doing"
But, why? This was supposed to have been wrapped, what, 6 weeks ago or something? And yet it’s not. Whether it’s a big thing or a little thing or somewhere in between…it’s something that is supposed to be taken care of and yet is not taken care of.
If it were such a small thing, it’d be done by now.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I have a suspicion
that if the media hadn’t made a huge deal out of the compensation issue, it would’ve been dealt with by now. But instead, when he went over, we were flooded with things like “GIVE US GARZA+ CASTRO+ THE STARS+ THE MOON+ YOUR FIRST WORLD SERIES TROPHY, WHICH WILL CLEARLY COME ONE YEAR AFTER STEALING AWAY OUR BOY GENIUS MIRACLE WORKER”
And I suspect that part of the reason they’ve largely just ignored it is so that people will calm down, forget about it, and then go back to apathy when we get a largely hopeless minor prospect in exchange for Theo.
Remember Selig basically said “just pick someone or else I’ll pick someone for you by this day” and then when that day came around he shrugged his shoulders and said “whatever, they’ll figure it out when they want to” (NOTE obviously none of these quotes are actually quoting anyone). This leads me to believe that they all just have a mutual decision to make the decision at a time when media and the fans don’t care that much and won’t make a huge deal out of it.
I think there were other ways this could have been done
Theoretically we should have been dealing from a position of strength and I feel that’s not at all how it ended up. That it’s still going on is merely annoying. Referencing your quote below here, if Henry wanted that to be the story he could have done so, “Listen, this is a big promotion for Theo, I wish we could offer him what Chicago can but we can’t and we wish him luck, this isn’t about exacting value, we’re letting Theo go.” That’s all the press release had to say. Instead we’re left with, whatever we’re at now.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I just don't really believe
threatening to make our GM continue to run our organization when he doesn’t want to be there and when he’s clearly leaving after the season is not a real position of strength. As soon as Theo wanted to go, he was basically gone.
Sure
But there were ways to make this not about exacting equal value, but that’s what it became anyway.
I would have been fine with getting nothing in the end if that’s what the message was from the start, but this thing went on and on and on and on and painted the FO in a negative light to me, even if the reports of Larry being an ass at the table aren’t true, we were put in a place where we had to endure those reports.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Larry being ass has been reported for years.
That is nothing new. It’s probably the reason why Theo left in the 05-06 off-season.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
It's nothing new
But it’s more important to take note of now, since Theo has left it does appear that he’s taken quite a bit of power.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I care if it makes things harder to do
Or turns things into something they shouldn’t have been, as it appears to me anyway that he’s done with the Theo thing.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
It's also an issue
Of too many hands stirring the pot, that rarely works well.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
And the last couple times hes's had the power in the organization,
I think things turned out pretty well. I mean if it wasn’t for Larry Lucchino, Josh Beckett, love him or hate him wouldn’t be here. John Henry wanted to sign AJ Burnett, and Theo said he wouldn’t have mad that trade. I think that shows Larry knows what he ‘s doing. I mean two seasons after that trade the Sox won their second WS, who knows how long it would have taken if they didn’t make that trade, and signed AJ Burnett, or just kept Hanley Ramirez and not gotten Beckett.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
It's kinda funny how it's worked out so far
When it was our Larry versus their Larry there was a ton of media attention and reports of fights and promises of “significant compensation” on one side versus “think of the precedent” on the other.
Then, as soon as Ben and Theo became the prime negotiators, they started downplaying everything and pushing it back and generally tried to make fans simply forget about the whole thing.
I really think Larry screwed this one up. It’ll likely be no one of any significance and neither Ben or Theo seems to really care at all.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
I'll bet if Larry hadn't asked for Garza or any other major leaguer,
which he had every right to do, it would have been done in very short order.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think he did
If Henry’s words are true about their intent, then they should have let him go and said that they don’t need anything. The mouth was saying one thing but the hands were doing something else. It was bungled, hiring Valentine was bungled, they haven’t been doing well by my book and I doubt their ability to work together effectively.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
From your perspective.
And that’s fine, but if they are holding the WS trophy at the end of the season, Are you going to remember any of this? I know I certainly won’t.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
A WS doesn't just undo things
If we won one more game in Sept and ended up winning the World Series, I would still remember how absolutely dismal the team was, how badly they played and how some changes needed to be made.
But as it stands, my point is that I feel the FO is down a path that doesn’t lead to many WS opportunities.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Well then, you keep thinking that.
I just think when the ownership group has pretty damn good track record of success, I trust their judgement on how they run their business. If they think that this MINOR issue is not that important, then it’s not that important. I don’t believe everything I read or hear. Do you truly know they bungled the manager search or are you just going off what you heard and read? I’d be much more concerned if the FO and ownership has made the Theo compensation issue their biggest priority, and ignored everything else.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
I think you're missing my point
I don’t think that Theo’s compensation is important and I don’t care about what we get, what I care about is that they built it into this important thing and now it’s just dragged on.
Part of their job is to control the spin on what they do and they’ve failed miserably at that all off-season. And PR is very important, not the whats and whys but the how and the how does it looks, it affects how other teams deal with you. Henry, Lucchino and Cherington may not think Theo’s compensation is important, but other teams are going to look at how long this stupid thing has gone on and make a judgement about it. Teams are going to see all the reports that Valentine wasn’t Cherington’s choice and that Lucchino played the puppet master, and even if it isn’t true, other teams are going to change the way they deal with Ben if they don’t think he’s actually running things.
Don’t get me wrong, I think Henry does a great job as an owner, I just don’t have much faith in Lucchino and how he affects the Red Sox image, especially if he actually is pulling the strings behind the curtain. Our front office won’t be as affective with those two offices in a power struggle.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Yet they have been the most successful with those two in power.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
And teams don't rely on reports to determine how to deal with other teams.
They determine how to deal with other teams based on past relationships they’ve had with the teams. They know more about what actually happens than any damn reporter or fan.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah but with Theo
A strong figure who pretty much got things his way. I don’t know if you missed that memo, but Theo ain’t here anymore. We’ve got Ben who to me anyway has appeared to be impotent. I couldn’t tell you who is in charge and that is a problem. It should be Ben, but then we get to hear about how Ben wanted a different manager than the one we ended up with. If the chain of command in personnel decisions now runs through Lucchino, I’m not sure his assholery is going to be the asset it was when he was President and didn’t have such a hand in day-to-day negotiations with other teams.
It’s the same people but in new roles that I haven’t seen much indication that they’re working well in.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
He had hands on control.
In 02, 03, 04. Than Theo left because Theo wanted more power, and and he basically had full on control and 07 happened. I don’t mind having somebody overlooking Ben because he’s not yet an experienced GM and it’s not like Ben didn’t know what he got himself into. He could have left and gone somewhere else.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
all that is straight up speculation anyways
or do you have inside information that Lucchino is negotiating contracts?
Of course Lucchino, Henry, and Werner were involved in the managerial decision. So were Mike Hazen, Allard Baird, and plenty of other people in the organization. It’s not wrong that Cherington didn’t necessarily make a unilateral decision because that was a decision that everyone should come to together.
It certainly doesn’t mean that Lucchino is making the baseball operations decisions- I don’t even know whether that would be good or bad, but it doesn’t mean that; though I am sure that all those same people are sitting in rooms, discussing the best moves for the team to take, as they did under Theo’s watch, and as they would do under anyone’s watch.
I do know that Larry Lucchino was the main person behind the Beckett/Lowell trade.
Theo has said he wouldn’t have made that trade.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 12:19 AM EST up reply actions
He made one good trade over a couple month period
Maybe it’s skill, or maybe it’s the blind squirrel theory at work. The sample size isn’t big enough to distinguish them.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
It appears to me that Lucchino has a bigger hand in these decisions than he should. Where there is smoke, there is often fire. Reports that Ben wasn’t a Valentine fan didn’t just come out of thin air, there is something to them I’d bet and the media has gotten a little better a rooting out stories this year. And in the end these decisions are Ben’s to make, the others have input for sure, but not the decision.
To me this front office doesn’t seem as strong as it should considering what happened with the team just a couple months ago.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Because in the grand scheme of things,
like wolf said below, this issue is not the be all end all of the Red Sox off-season. This might be letter X, Y, or Z on their list of issues. I’d be more concerned if this issue was the main issue of the Red Sox FO. As Red Sox fans, and the media led us into this, we were making some ridiculous proposals, which we knew they would reject. I just think to bitch and moan that getting a player or players who probably have no bearing on how the Sox will do this season is silly. Now to bitch and moan about players who have bearing on the Red Sox play this year, I totally support.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
why?
Um … Because they are all experienced pro baseball executives and businessmen with a track record of success?
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
by mmmmm on Dec 13, 2011 6:29 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Grand successes such as
Julio Lugo, John Lackey, Carl Crawford and Hideki Okajima v2.0?
Glorious.
Not to diminish their accomplishments, but they don’t get a free pass.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
So then we should think that
“they don’t know what they are doing”?
And that we know better, right?
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Noooooooooooooooo...
…that’s not what I’m saying and you know it.
What I, personally, am saying and what I feel others are saying is that you can’t assume that they have made a wonderful acquisition just because.
Our little slice of Red Sox heaven would be quite dull here if we all just sat here and said, “Yes. That’s nice.” every time the front office made an announcement.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
And what we are saying.
Is not that every move is a wonderful move just because they’re the Red Sox. I, for one, have criticized them for moves, but I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because of their track record. And this Shoppach move may lead to a move that gets us a SP. At the Winter Meetings they may have recieved some interest in one our catchers, and are just trying to acquire depth for that position, so if in a few days you wake up and read Catcher X has been traded for SP X, this move will make sense.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
To quote a man who has no relevance to this other than the state he was governor of:
“We’ve got this thing, and it’s (expletive) golden, and I’m not going to give it up for (expletive) nothing.”
- Rod Blagojevich
My issue isn’t the return, it isn’t that it’s dealing with resources, it’s that it’s still happening. It’s that we were dealing from a position of strength, having the asset and turned it into one of absolute weakness. He didn’t have to random Theo, there were ways to get this done in a much better way that just didn’t happen. All indications are to me that this FO doesn’t have a lot in control right now. That this Epstein saga is now entering it’s third month, that the back and forth between the teams has seemed so negative, that Epstein is a Cubs employee and we have nothing to show for it still. Those are my problems, there is no sign in there to me that I can grasp onto and say ‘The FO knows exactly what it’s doing’.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
as far as resources
honestly, before Theo went over, John Henry may have well talked himself out of real compensation:
"There’s a certain protocol in this game," Henry said. "If someone asks permission for a job that’s not lateral, you give them permission. That’s just how it works."
While he’s doing a simiar job, President of Baseball Operations isn’t a lateral move.
in control of what?
I don’t get the concern here.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
by mmmmm on Dec 13, 2011 6:24 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
The situation, the narrative, the outcome
Like I said, it’s not about what we will get for Theo, it’s how this entire process went down.
We went from having one of the best GMs in the game to not having him, too quickly and with too much commotion than I’m comfortable referring to as “controlled”.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
So all this is about your personal comfort level?
Ok. That’s fair.
Can you accept that other people may not have the same ‘discomfort’ responses as you?
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
You can think whatever the hell you want
But I think they’ve looked a little like bumbling fools in an offseason where it was rather important to look like there was order.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
that's fair
but is also different from assuming they’re morons because they spent a small amount of money on someone who isn’t a pitcher.
I'm not assuming they're morons, personally.
But…I’ve got my deep concerns.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I don't like the move
It’s not an overreaction, it’s just A reaction.
I don’t think it accomplishes a whole lot and just because Ben said it’s what they were going to do anyway do I think it’s what they should be doing. This is roughly 10% of what I think we had left to spend and the acquisitions I think we should make were going to take up at least 100% of what I think we had left anyway. I do think this negatively affects our ability to sign a couple passable starters, or it means that they don’t intend to and they won’t have a failsafe in place if Bard doesn’t make it as a starter.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Okay
To me it’s an overreaction to call a one-year deal for just a touch over $1 million a terrible signing. Agree to disagree.
Trepidation and a bit of concern is fine, outright lambasting it is probably a little over the top, in my humble opinion.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
Plus I REALLY
Want Lavarnway to get his chance. I really don’t think there is anything more for him to prove in AAA, I’m of the belief that his defense is actually ready for the bigs. I thought he had a chance to actually take the starting catcher role by the end of the year, that bat just has too much upside. It could also quell all those clamoring for a RH bat.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Maybe he'll get that chance.
In another organization. He might the best trade chip we have right now. Good catchers are extremely hard to find. Maybe the Red Sox understand that to get a Gio Gonzalez or a pitcher of that ilk, they are going to have to give Lavarnway, despite what how that would cause the fans to react.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
I'd want someone better than Gio for Lavarnway
Catchers with great bats are extremely valuable, a pitcher with a walkrate over 4 per 9 does scare me a little bit. He’d be a welcome addition don’t get me wrong, but not for Lavarnway.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I did say ilk.
I agree that Gio is probably overrated. Maybe the Sox are working on a deal for a more consistent, less walk prone pitcher, and Lavarnway will almost have to be included in the package to get said pitcher. I mean if teams are asking for Montero from the Yankees for pitchers like Danks and Gio, why wouldn’t they ask for Lavarnway? That just be plain dumb on their part.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
The mfy would be foolish and short sighted to
part with Montero who promises to be elite. Ditto the Sox for Lavarnway. It is just as likely that Shoppach, hitting well at Fenway, will be the trade piece when Lava forces his way onto the 25-man.
by GerryT on Dec 13, 2011 1:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Either way, they may have to part with a catcher.
To get a pitcher of some quality. If you’re an owner of a team, like the A’s or White Sox, and you hear that your GM is asking for Montero from the Yankees, but your GM is not asking for Lavarnway from the Red Sox for a high-quality pitcher. If that was me, I’d be quite pissed at my GM.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
I think...
…you’re incredibly overrating Lavarnway.
I like him a lot, but there’s no chance the Red Sox should get someone better (!) than Gonzalez for Lavarnway. He’s 24 and almost certainly will never catch every day. His perfect world is Mike Napoli, which would obviously be incredibly valuable, but that’s optimistic even to me, a Lavarnway optimist.
I think Lavarnway would likely be the No. 2 piece or co-No. 1 piece in a deal for Gio, based on his market.
by UltimateCranston on Dec 13, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
I never said straght up Gio for Lavarnway.
I meant in a package. Like Reddick, Lavarnway. plus one or two othe prospects for Gio. The Yankees would have to give uop a similiar package with Montero and other prosepcts.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
Not straight up
But a package built around him. I’d rather build a deal around another player, maybe one of our dozens of OF prospects, for Gio, who scares me a little. Lavarnway should be in a package for only a top tier pitcher, of which Gio is not.
That said, I don’t think there are many catchers left in baseball who play every day. Ryan is one of the best catching prospects in all of baseball, he has 30 HR potential, plus his defense isn’t as bad as some say, he’s gotten much, much better. I think it’s good enough that he could be Victor Martinez, who managed to play C into is 30s. His bat has that upside and his defense may end up being better. I’m telling you, this kid has AS potential at the position.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
If the starting point for the Yankees was Montero+ for Gio,
there’s no chance in hell that Billy Beane would settle for a package from the Red Sox that didn’t involve Lavarnway+. I don’t think they will trade for Gio, because I’m with you, he scares me. But if they were approached for a trade involving Gio, be rest assured Lavarnway would probably have to be involved.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
Substitution
Just because they want Montero from the Yankees doesn’t mean we couldn’t dangle one of our multiple high ceiling infielders or one of our dozen high ceiling outfielders to take his place. If they want a major league ready catcher, sure, but if they just want prospects we can replace Lavarnway’s spot in the deal with someone else, say Lin+Coyle instead.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Not if Billy Beane deems Lavarnway our best prospect.
That would probabaly just be the starting negotiations, so maybe they could bring the price down, but the first couple combination probably have to include Lavarnway.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe
But ‘they wanted Montero so we’d have to give up Lavarnway’ is faulty logic without being in Beane’s head. There are always substitutions, and we have to remember that while Lavarnway is a great prospect, Montero is a generational prospect, one that doesn’t come along very often at all, which could be the appeal to Beane. Quite possible they say Lavarnway, we counter with Middlebrooks and that’s perfectly fine for them, some may consider him to be the better prospect anyway.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
You and I are in agreement that Lavarnway shouldn't be dealt for Gio.
I just think that if Beane’s starting asking price was the stars and the moon from the Yankees, why wouldn’t it be the stars and the moon from the Red Sox for the same player? Which would certainly INTIALLY include him asking for Lavarnway+, and if the Red Sox said no to that, I’d be happy with that.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
It would be
But the stars and the moon are different things from different teams, indeed it’s Montero from the Yankees, but from us it could be Middlebrooks, or Bogaerts, or knowing Billy Beane he may treasure high OBP OF Hassan instead.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I agree with you...but even I am scratching my head at this one.
Still short a starter, a closer and a reliever. Still would like a RH bat for the OF. Im ok with Reddick, the kid is tough
"You're either carrying a spear, or running from it"
by BigSpearDiplomacy on Dec 13, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
Shoppach in my mind, completely gets rid of any need for a right-handed outfielder
because he’s just straight up awesome against lefties. Like Middle-of-the-order good.
Yup.
Hopefully they saw this move as a good alternative to spending more for a RH OF. And decided they can let Reddick go (or call Kalish up when he’s ready), and keep McDonald/Aviles for the back up OF spot.
Now, if we go sign a RH OF after this and before we get pitching… at that point, I might lean over to Rogue’s camp.
And I’m with Bloggy… I’m not impressed with our front office so far, so I have deep concerns about this offseason. I’m waiting for the final package, but not happy about the direction I see us taking so far.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Totally agree with you.
Maybe they have drawn some interest from Lavarnway or another catcher, and this signing allows them to part ways with that catcher in a package for a pitcher, and they still have catching depth.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Could you imagine if someone traded for Salty?
Thinking that hot streak he had last year is a sign he’s about to turn the corner?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I'm apparently in the minority here
But I like the move. What this says to me is that they think Lavarnway needs more time in AAA, most likely to work on his defense, but probably also to get everyday at bats. While everyone clearly thinks Lava’s ready for the big time, it’s worth remembering that the goal of the organization is to win now and next season and the one after that, and if they think giving Lava more time in AAA is the way to do that, who am I to argue.
The other option, is the trade package that’s people here are mentioning, but signing Shoppach doesn’t seem like a move that would foreshadow that because I don’t think he’s good enough to replace Lava. This seems more like developmental protection than anything else, although I’m surprised no one’s mentioned that keeping him in the minors will stop his arbitration clock from going and can avoid making him be a super 2, which would make him cheaper over the next several years
What I’m seeing here is the Sox signing someone that’s a slightly better version of Tek that the fanbase won’t riot over when they DFA/Trade him midseason to make room for Lava.
Not really sure you're in a minority
I think the majority of us would like the move if there was more clarification as to how much exactly the Sox were willing to spend this offseason. If you believe we only had $5-8 million you’ll probably really dislike this move. If you believe we had $10+ million, this move is a nice complimentary piece that shouldn’t affect much else.
by South Coast Ghost on Dec 13, 2011 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
I'm right there with with you.
I don’t think the cost is going to hamstring us the way some folks are assuming. As I see it, there are three possible ways the front office could deal with the deficit in the rotation:
(I) Sign cheap back-end starters (in which case they should be able to stay under the CBT payroll threshold, whether they had signed Shoppach or not).
(II) Trade for solid pitching (in which case the major cost will likely be in prospects, not dollars).
(III) Sign a solid-to-good starter (in which case they’re almost certainly going OVER the luxury tax threshold, again regardless of whether Shoppach is signed or not).
I don't mind this
I mean, it sucks that Lavarnway can’t play now cause I think he is a potential 30 HR right handed bat. But having him fine tune his skills in the minors does not hurt. And Shoppach is a decent back up, and $1.35 mm isn’t a lot.
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My biggest question regarding Lavarnway is
When will his time come? What changes next year if he, once again destroys AAA and Salty holds his own? We go into next season in the same scenario, I really don’t think an extra year at AAA is going to make any difference in his game, are they going to stash him away again to get him more ABs?
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Lavarnway is likely to be a better catcher than Salty
Giving him more time in the minors to work on his defense and fix the one area of his game that could keep him from unseating Salty sooner than later is important.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 13, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
How is he "likely" going to be better?
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by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 13, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Lavarnway vs. Salty
Salty isn’t the best defensive catcher around by any means, and his bat is fine enough for the position, but not outstanding. He’s a useful, average catcher. Lavarnway has the potential in his bat to be a lot better than that.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 13, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
remember that
Lavarnway has only caught since partway through his junior year- an extra year would be a significant part of his development. Remember, too, that Salty put up an OBP under .300 last year. If Lavarnway’s defensive development goes well and he continues to mash, is expect him to be a starting catcher by the end of the year, regardless of where he begins the year.
I don't think he spends all of 2012 in AAA.
I think they let Salty go early in the season in a platoon with Shoppach, and if Lavarnway’s defense continues to improve and he’s tearing the cover of the ball, they DFA Shoppach and move Lavarnway up, eventually allowing him to take Salty’s starting position, and Salty becomes our “platoon” back up.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
How do you all know the sox budget?
One thing this ownership has done is spend. I doubt all the members of the rs organization know a budget number and I doubt it is set in stone. So I am really baffled how members of the media and bloggers know what the budget is.
The rs signed what looks to be a good fit at backup/platoon catcher. I just assume they save the rotation spots for next offseason and use short term options this year. This team has a shot as is if long as the top 3 sp are healthy.
by JonnyJumpUp on Dec 13, 2011 12:41 PM EST via mobile reply actions
well it's mostly
assumption that they’ll try to stick under, or right around, the luxury tax limit, based on comments Cherington and Lucchino have made, and based on their past history. They probably won’t just blow by it.
I think there might be a goal to stay under.
To start the clock over again, so if they do go after pitching in 2013, they can afford to be a little more aggressive.
However, if the right piece comes up and puts us over the threshold, I don’t think they’ll hold back because of that. We won’t know until they either stay under or go over…
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I must say.
Shoppach has a fine beard.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
As I posted that picture
I was thinking how nice it would be if Salty would grow his out all the way, so that the Red Sox had some serious beardage behind the plate.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 13, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
As I was looking at that picture, I had to do a double take.
That isn’t a picture of Jason Varitek? Am I the only one to see that, or has it been posted a dozen times already?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
He does have Tek Eyes.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Shoppach looks like Tek, and Cherington sounds exactly like Theo
Here comes the new guard, same as the old guard…
This of course
Doesn’t spur confidence in me…
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
confidence in what?
Confidence that they won’t stay under the luxury tax?
or
Confidence on how good of a team they will field?
or
?
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
If they are indeed $3M from the threshold and prefer to stay as close as possible to it, I don’t have confidence that we’re going to get a starter better than Bard or Miller.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
"prefer not to" != "won't"
Ben, Larry & Werner have all made very clear that they prefer to stay just under, but they also made it clear that they have no qualms about going over if they think it will help the team.
This is consistent with what they’ve said and done over the last decade.
So as of this moment there is no reason to believe that they won’t, should it be necessary.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
But how far over can we expect them to go?
I was hoping they’d find a $6-8M starter, which would push them over by a little or quite a bit depending on how close they are, then they should still add a starter and reliever after that. Not looking too good.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I wouldn't count on them adding two major league starters
I think that one of Aceves/Bard (I HOPE NOT)/Doubront/Tazawa/Miller (I ALSO HOPE NOT) will be the fifth starter.
Considering what has moved this offseason, starting the year with any of those guys
Is really unacceptable. Aceves starter splits aren’t pretty, Bard, just no, Doubront I just don’t know what we’re going to get, he had his chance last year and he absolutely blew it, Tazawa is intriguing but incredibly unproven as a starter and Miller, that depresses me.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
And I want Weiland in the pen
since he was so godawful as a starter last year.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
I would like to see this to
His splits from his pitches 1-25 in an outing vs. 26-50 are so significant that it seems like a very natural role for him at this time. Let him do that, get his confidence and stretch him into a 2+ inning reliever ala Aceves.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 14, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
I don't see the problem...
…with signing one proven starter as the No. 4 and allowing one of a handful of intriguing arms to fight out for the No. 5 spot with the rest providing support in the bullpen and in the Minors, knowing also that Dice-K should be back to contribute at some point in the season.
There are some good arms there and it seems reasonable that one of them can end up a league average or better No. 5 starter in 2012. It might not happen, but I don’t have a problem with the idea that the fifth starter comes from that group. I, too, would prefer Bard stay in the bullpen.
by UltimateCranston on Dec 14, 2011 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
My problem with that is
Is that we’re going to be looking at pretty much the same group as last year who combined to be two rather ineffectual starters.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Amazing
The Rays were a black hole at catcher last year.
And we have acquired the WORST that played there.
The Rays signed Jose Molina for $ 1.8 million. I like that signing a hell of a lot more than this one.
This guy is one of the worst hitters I have ever seen get significant playing time in the Majors. The only one that was worse was Reid Brignac
Ooooh.. we could have had a Molina for only $500k more?
Damn, that would have been nice… of course, I assume that his platoon splits don’t fit in as nicely as Shoppach’s??
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
MOAR MOLINAZ
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Molina
hits about 50 points higher (actually it was 100 in 2011), is right handed).
In 2010 Molina lead the AL in cs % at 44.
Shoppach
Hit lefties better than Molina in 2011, even while hitting in home a park that’s not made for righties and he also managed to throw out runners at a 41% clip. Shoppach also has significantly more power, plus 500,000 is nothing to sneeze at – about the raise that Albers got
and also is a 31-year-old catcher rather than a 36-year-old
though Albers only got like a $200k raise right?
Regarding Lavarnway spending time in AAA
I’m sure improving his defense is part of that, but I would be tempted to say it is just as much to get him plenty of at-bats. He could arguably improve just as much at the MLB level defensively with veteran pitchers who can advise him of how they approach the game, etc. Especially because I would suspect he is going to split time in AAA catching as well, although he will probably get more catching time at that level than if he were on the MLB squad.
With Ortiz on the roster there is not really any DH at-bats for Lavarnway so at best he would look at a couple hundred at-bats. With Papi on a one-year deal, they can let Lavarnway get full-time at-bats in AAA to get additional work on pitch recognition, swing mechanics, base-running, etc. Repetition is good for both pitching and hitting, but hitting is especially important as the timing and mechanics need to become more and more consistent as he reaches the MLB level.
Getting twice as many at-bats (even if it is against lesser pitching in AAA) will help him keep that while he waits for Papi to be put out to the pasture.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 13, 2011 2:04 PM EST reply actions
Agree
Lavarnway is and should not be a bench player. If he’s mashing AAA then you consider a move mid-year
Correction:
Repetition is good for both pitching and hitting
This should have been “good for both DEFENSE and hitting”.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 13, 2011 2:05 PM EST reply actions
There is no conceivable universe where Kelly Shoppach is worth talking about for 150 posts
"We’re the Sox. Not Apple Sox. We ain’t no Barbeque Sox. We’re the Red Sox.’’ - David Ortiz
There were nearly 300 comments on the Ohlendorf post the other day
I’m just going to start writing about bit players all the time.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Dec 13, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Can we have an open thread?
I think the lack of real news is making us go crazy.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Well, to be fair... plenty of these posts hijacked into a totally new direction.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Lavarnway trade bait?
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I hate free agency
I hope not.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
Also, let it be said,
“Leave No Bad Idea Unexploited” appears to be the actual approach we’re taking.
Also Also, way to make your first move Ben! Hot damn, giving a third catcher 1.35m.
As I said
they won’t rest until order is restored. We’ve got another 86 year wait ahead of us.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 13, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
Way to have blind faith in your team.
…that wasn’t too hard to turn.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I don't have blind faith.
But I don’t think their fucking season is over on December 13. I’m willing to give them time to make some moves and then judge them when I see a complete team on the field actually playing games.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 13, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
don't worry about it
Sean was excited about last season, and then they proceeded to get crushed in all of the many games he went to and had a historic collapse. Maybe this is a good thing.
Sean, how did you feel going into 2007?
Well that's good to know.
I just find it amazing how people don’t understand that these guys aren’t just sitting back doing absolutely nothing. Just because their not spending huge money or trading the farm doesn’t mean they aren’t trying to improve the team. All say it again, if you think the FO and ownership and players were happy with the way the season ended, they would have just kept it status quo. These are some of the most, if not, the most competitive people in the world. They hate to lose more than any fan ever does.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
The whole purpose of this site, and others like them
is to debate moves like this. And to second-guess. And to get excited about moves. And wonder why the hell someone would sign a guy. Of course the front office wants a good product as much or more than we do. And of course they’re better at this job than I am (or Rogue is…or Sean is…or you are…). That’s why they’re making millions in Boston and we’re living paycheque to paycheque.
But you can’t shrug off all their moves because of that as “I’m sure they know what they’re doing…they’re professionals.” These professionals, and others like them, have made some pretty dumbass moves over the years. Dumbass moves, by the way, which have put us in this tight budget we currently have.
I don’t hate Shoppach as a player. But I legitimately wonder if he was a good get with the limited budget we have. After Lugo & Lackey (and probably Crawford) and the others like them…that’s a very legitimate wonder.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Hahaha
“Paycheque” you’re hilarious Bloggy.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 9:19 AM EST up reply actions
silly proper english
it sounds fancier to live “paycheque to paycheque” than to live “paycheck to paycheck”
Living "paycheque to paycheque"
makes me feel like I should be buying top hats and monocles.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
Bloody colonists.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Wait a minute....
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Of course there going to make Dumbass moves their human.
Humans are not perfect. Every team, not just in baseball, but every sport makes dumbass moves. I just think the gloom and doom of saying the season’s over on December 14 is idiotic, when we haven’t played a game yet. The Yankees have made less moves than us, and I don’t hear their fans saying their season’s over when they have just as many questions as the Red Sox.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
No one is saying the season's over.
What people are saying is that this is not a good use of a limited amount of money.
And, to put things in perspective, the Yankees didn’t completely shit their pants last year.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Sean and Lone David are saying the season's over.
Do iI think this was questionable move? Yes, if the limited amount of money is true which only the club truly knows what the case. But do I think signing Kelly Shoppach prevents them from making other moves? Absolutely not. They may need to move a catcher in a trade, and signing Shoppach now allows them to make the deal when it comes time to make the deal. Just like if they signed a RF, maybe they know they have to give up a Reddick, and they want to have cover in the organization to make the trade when the other team is happy with the package they are recieving.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
I'm saying it's highly, highly unlikely the team will improve on what happened in 2011.
That’s not the same as “the season is over.”
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
So if Buchholz stays healthy they won't be better?
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
Not if they keep making deals like they've been doing.
It’s looking to me like Cherington is Theo, but without the ability to make good trades.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
Ok. So the fact that they were the best team in baseball record wise
for a majority of the season. sans Buchholz, for the same amount of time, you’re just going to gloss over?
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
Majority of the season
doesn’t mean a goddamn thing. They were also one of the worst teams in recorded history the rest of the time.
Because they arguably didn't have their third best pitcher.
Add in Buchholz for hopefully more than 80 innings, and they probably make the playoffs.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
This team should have won 105-110
as constructed. That they didn’t proves that there are countless, major problems.
It's not just injuries.
That the healthy players seemingly disappeared in September is a major issue that has nothing to do with injury. Healthy players who were having very good seasons up to that point just totally crapped the bed, offensively, defensively and as pitchers. A couple bad games is understandable, but they had a month of bed crapping, there is more involved.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
But if you lose high quality players to injury
Than you’re team is worse because you probably don’t have anybody to replace them with. Losing Buchholz and Youkilis really hurt the team. And yes September hurt but if Buchholz isn’t basically out for the season, they probably aren’t even in a position to colapse. But that’s just me, I tend to look at the whole season, not just one bad month and say that this team or any team sucks because I understand that they had a bad month at the worst possible time. Maybe that’s just me being naive, but I think the Sox team we saw from mid April to end of August is the real sox team, but if you guys want to think that, go ahead, I can’t stop you from it.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 15, 2011 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
I just think we suck
and will probably win 80-85 games. Prove me wrong, Sox. You owe us for having sat through 2011. And me for having stood through 20 goddamn awful games.
Oh man
My dad’s already looking to buy tickets for when the Sox go to Comerica next year. I love my dad, and Comerica is one of my favorite parks, but if we lose to the Tigers at the games I’m at I’m gonna go nuts.
I’m something like 30-1 with the Sox right now, the only losing game I’ve been to was Dice-K’s start against the Diamondbacks in 2007.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 15, 2011 3:36 AM EST up reply actions
Felt that if we were half as lucky
as we were unlucky in 2006, then we had a really good shot. Wasn’t anywhere near as optimistic as I was for the 2011 105 game winners.
Still cannot believe how badly we #($@ed this one up.
Listen
We are past the half way mark on this offseason. We entered with several needs, a GM, a manager, pitching coach, pick one of 1B/3B/bench coach, two starters a designated hitter and a reliever.
So far we’ve got our GM, who so far has seemed more like he’d rather think about doing things rather than do them, a manager who wasn’t a popular fan choice and from what has been reported wasn’t the GM’s first choice necessarily, we’re still missing a pitching coach and we still don’t know which of the 1B/3B/Bench coach jobs are open. They then decided that their best bet for one of the starters was to move our remaining great reliever out of the bullpen to pitch more innings, when it’s appeared he’s worn out after 65 the last two years. This makes it appear that their decision will be that they’d rather spend a lot of money on a closer than a lot of money on another starter, which is maybe the most boneheaded decision you can make, don’t spend money on relief, you’ll find a guy who can do it a lot cheaper. That isn’t a have your cake and eat it too sort of move, if they want Bard as starter they’re going to get a reliever, if Bard fails as a starter, we aren’t going to have viable replacement for him, we have Andrew Miller back somehow.
The only thing they’ve done really is to sign Ortiz, which was a no-brainer, and sign a catcher for a solid portion of their remaining cash, when we already had a guy who could fight for the starting job right out of spring training in Lavarnway.
Right now we’re looking at the very real possibility that we enter the season with Bard, Miller and Aceves fighting for the 4 and 5 spots in the rotation with some high priced closer we signed that couldn’t even hope to be worth the big contract he’ll be getting. While hoping that Daisuke effing Matsuzaka is our savior when he comes back sometime mid-season. That’s messed up.
I hope I’m wrong I really do, but that’s the way I see this going. Ben is sitting back and watching while half the players who might have helped us get moved and we don’t even have a complete coaching staff at this point. If the needs weren’t so obvious, if the budget wasn’t so tight and if this team hadn’t had the worst September collapse in the history of baseball this might all be OK for this stage of the offseason, but those things all are true and as such, this isn’t OK. They’ve got a solid D grade from me right now, and that’s only bolstered because they were able to make the ‘no duh’ signing of Ortiz.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
Ok. Hey I'm not saying that they are the WS champs right now.
But I don’t think they’re that bad. I mean for a majority of the season they were the best team in baseball record wise, and that was with John Lackey and other below average pitchers pitching 3/5 of the time. When Buchholz comes back, I’d put their top three up against anybody in the American League. They had bad 6 weeks, two to begin the season, and of course September, but I just think to say that “Our season’s over before it starts” is borderline moronic. Wow they haven’t signed or traded for some players that could help us. Not all of the players that could help are gone, and it doesn’t mean they won’t do that. Everybody in every sports fans wants to win more than any fan could possibly ever want to. The ownership group wouldn’t keep pouring money into this team if they didn’t care about the team. The Bard to the rotation thing is not set in stone. Bobby V. has said that he’ll get to the 18-20 inning mark in ST, and then they’ll sit down and discuss what’s best for him and the team. In no post have I declared them the WS champs, I just think to over look the fact that this team has some major talent on it, all of which will be extremely motivated to get off to a good start next because they were extremely embarrassed by the way things ended. It’s fustrating the apparent lack of player movement, I understand that, but I don’t think they are just sitting in Fenway Park doing absolutely nothing. Transactions, most of the time, take a long time to develop.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions
If they were motivated September never would have happened.
There are some deeper issues on that team that I don’t think have been taken care of. They had an entire month to figure out how to change what was happening to them and they didn’t.
As for Bard, most of the outcomes that leads to are bad. If the Sox try Bard in the pen, and don’t make a relief or starting move until then, it’s a bad decision because most anyone worth a damn will be off the market by the time they know what he will be. Or they sign a starter or reliever in belief that he will end up in one role or the other and that’s a guess. There is no way to say if Bard will end up successful, I do know that the things that make a player a good reliever are not the same things that make them a good starter. I do believe he has had fatigue issues after 60 something innings the last two years as well, so I think even if they do make him a starter, I expect no more than 110-120 innings out of him, and that isn’t enough to make it worth it to me. And if he fails there is a solid chance we end up doubled up on relievers and didn’t spend the money on a viable starter.
And it’s not that I don’t think the ownership cares, I think it’s that Theo had a very strong hand in the guidance and now they are all set to their own devices rather than the ones Theo allowed and they don’t know what they are doing.
.
Because of what’s happened, this isn’t an offseason to sit around and wait for something to develop, this is an offseason to be proactive, to go out and offer your Melky Cabrera equivalent to the Giants before the Royals do so you can get Jonathan Sanchez instead. To show that even though we don’t have Epstein anymore, we’re still going to be active and sneaky and doing things. Right now it looks like we’re waiting for people to come to us and that’s not the way you look when you get as embarrassed as we did in September.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
"There are some deeper issues on that team that I don’t think have been taken care of. "
I’m not sure I get how you would ever know just what they have or not done to try to take care of ‘deeper issues’ until the product is realized on the field.
Moves like the Shoppach signing, you say is wasting time & resources that should be expended on pitching. But you have no way of knowing whether that is or isn’t a precursor to a move to obtain pitching.
I get that you are just not personally in a good comfort place. But it does seem like a lot of unnecessary anxiety to many of us.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
We're over half way through this offseason
And so far they’ve given no indication that they’re really working on anything. They’ve dawdled. They’ve only really decided to weaken an already weakened bullpen further with this Bard experiment which handcuffs them to either guessing whether they’ll need a starter or reliever or they’ll do nothing on that front until spring training which is also a mistake. They also decided to stash our solid rookie of the year candidate catcher who was also a right handed hitter in AAA to start the year to spend one point three five million of our precious few on Kelly Shoppach. They may be working on a deal for pitching but I think we’re going to get screwed over in that department when Ryan Madson walks into town.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
I think the point with Lavarnway
Is that they didn’t expect him to start (as in be a starter, not as in begin) in MLB so why have him sit on the bench and get 200 at-bats when they could get him twice as many in AAA. Sure, it’s lesser pitching but it is still going out everyday and having a routine and finding holes in your mechanics. Sitting on the bench wouldn’t really help his development.
I think that was part of the reasoning behind not trying hard for a multi-year deal for Ortiz too. If Lavarnway tears the cover off the ball and improves his defense, then they are not locked into an additional year. They can let Ortiz walk, and Lavarnway can come up and get at-bats both at DH and Catcher.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 14, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
I think taking batting practice with the top players in baseball and getting work with the top catching coach on our team probably would’ve been quite helpful. I don’t think Salty’s place as starter should be so solid, Lavarnway should have been given a solid chance to win the starting job in ST. But the commitment to Shoppach is too big relative to what we can spend this year to just ship him off, Lavarnway will start in AAA. And it’s a shame because we could get so much more out of catcher this year.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
To each his own.
Batting practice isn’t a coach tossing underhand but they also aren’t throwing even AAA level sinkers, sliders, curveballs, etc. They aren’t trying to hit the corners and make the hitters miss. That’s not the purpose of it on a day to day basis.
Pitch recognition and timing would be more finely tuned during live situations than it is when your pitching coach or bullpen coach is throwing meatballs to get the hitters swinging to get arms and legs stretched out. It’s why prospects who are considered to be future starters are not kept at the MLB level on the bench if possible. Repetition is key.
As far as the commitment to Shoppach, it wouldn’t be my first choice and I’ve said a hundred times on this site that I think pitching is by far their biggest weakness. Their logic isn’t terrible and I think it is really terrible only if you think they have an internal hard cap that they won’t go over. To be honest, I think they WILL go over the threshold..it’s almost inevitable to me at this point given what they need to add.
And if they are going to go over it and get hit with a 40% tax…then Shoppach’s 1.35 million ends up being about 1.9 million. I just don’t see them turning away a starting pitcher because they paid 1.9 million for a back-up catcher.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 14, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
And Lavarnway will probably get time in spring training
If nothing else due to how they play SS games and there are always those guys who are on the bubble of MLB/AAA who are given play time.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 14, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
Classic Dalton double-post.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Hey at least I didn't reply to myself.
by The Name is Dalton on Dec 14, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
I prefer it when you do.
Keeps the thread tighter. :P
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Again. Just because they have given no indication they are working on anything.
Doesn’t mean they aren’t. They aren’t going to come out tell us the moves they are trying to make for two reasons. First if they say “Oh we are working on a trade for player X or working to sign player X.” The other teams that were interested in player X would then know who the Sox were targeting and could make better offers to the team or player and the Sox would be left with nothing. Second if it’s a trade they are working on, mentioning a player on another team is tampering. If the trade was completed, the comissioner’s office could veto the trade because the Sox mentioned the player by name before the trade was official.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
You want Jonathan Sanchez,
who walks the ballpark. Yet you don’t want Gio Gonzalez?
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Jonathan Sanchez would have cost us a used handkerchief
Gio Gonzalez will cost a Greinke-like prospect haul.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
Both players are high walk pitchers.
If you don’t want Gio because his high walk total, than Jonathan Sanchez should get the same level of treatment. I’d prefer to not watch games where our pitchers are walking the bases loaded. But that’s just me.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
I'd be fine getting Sanchez for the price the Royals paid
I would be more than happy to get him for that deal.
We don’t want Gio because Billy Beane wants an ace-level package for a non-ace-level pitcher.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
I dont't want Gonzalez because they're asking for Mike Stanton or Jesus Montero
I wanted Sanchez because he came with a prospect for Melky frickin Cabrera. If that was all Gio cost I’d be more in line with getting him but you can’t pay that much for those peripherals.
Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"
The Sanchez formula
Melky Cabrera + $6 million
= Lefty who strikes out a lot but walks far, far too many and isn’t particularly good at getting ground balls and missed half of last year due to injury and is leaving AT&T Park and the offensively challenged NL West
= DISASTER AT FENWAY
= Andrew Miller
Would you trade Melky Cabrera and pay $6 million for Andrew Miller.
Yes, it’s possible that he won’t be quite that bad. However, leaving the NL West and it’s giant comfy parks, I expect the walk rate to increase and k rate to decrease (no pitcher, and just otherwise better lineups) and the homers to jump (lefty non-groundball pitcher at fenway)
Melky Frickin Cabrea coming off a Career year.
My oint is the cost of getting Gio i is very high, but you’re essentailly trading for the AL verision of Jonathan Sanchez.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
The AL version who gets 50% ground balls
it’s not like he’s a product of the Coliseum. He’d be good anywhere.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
I never said he wouldn't be.
My point is Sox games are already way to long as it is. I’d prefer not to have time added on because the pitcher is walking the ballpark.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
If we still win, I'd rather the game takes longer.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
haha I always get upset when people complain about the length of baseball games
I always think “but i LIKE watching them.” If I’m gonna pay $50 for a ticket, I’d rather get more than 2 hours of entertainment out of that. The only time it wears on me is long extra innings games. But that’s because they stop selling beer after the 7th. Bastards.
True story
if the game is 13 innings in I need another beer.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not saying that I don't like watching games because of the length
If the game takes 10 hours, I’d watch it. But I don’t want to a watch a game where the pitcher of one team, and with Sanchez or Gonzalez, it’d be the Sox, is walking a ton of batters. It’s similar to Bobby V.‘s criticism of Beckett. I don’t want the pitcher just standing around. I like action, and watching guys walk a lot is not fun.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
I was about to say "What the @#$% is an OINT???"
I figured it was some sort of auto-correct or something.
Then I realized you simply missed the “P”.
omg i guess u could say u missed the...POINT!
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Canadian humor
It’s like the unfunny little brother of british humor.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
"Humour"
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Our top three is cool
but we’ve got even year Beckett, which is always a disaster, a Buchholz with a recently broken back, so who knows how that will turn out, and Lester is almost guaranteed to have a mediocre april. It’s not something we can really rely on in 2012.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
I'm gonna go back to my standardized test skills
stress fractured vertebrae:broken back::sprained ankle:shattered leg
I think I did that right.
Were the bones around his spinal cord broken or not?
Because “fractured” still means “broken”
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
there was one particular vertebrae that had a stress fracture
and a stress fracture is specifically a fracture that doesn’t go all the way through the bone. It is a fracture, but like the paper cut equivalent of one. A stress fracture is generally closer to a bruise than anything else- “broken back” implies something much worse than it is
So he had a "bruise"
that kept him out half the season.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
So he had a hairline fracture on his vertebrae
I fail to see how this is encouraging, the bone still had a crack in it where there should not have been one.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not saying it's encouraging
I’m saying when you say he had a “broken back” it makes it sound like he’s pitching out a freaking wheelchair. Stress fractures have a tendency to heal up even stronger than they were before. It’s not like there are bones dislodged and out of place, which is the biggest long term threat of a broken bone
If the bones around his spinal cord are fractured
then he broke his back. The bones are broken.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
Fixed:
we’ve got even year Beckett, which is always has been a disaster to this point
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Not fixed. @#$%
Let’s try this again, esti:
we’ve got even year Beckett, whichis alwayshas been a disaster to this point
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
The only way to project going forward is by looking at the patterns from the past.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
I find it hard to believe that Beckett's pitching takes a dip
simply because the year is divisible by 2.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I'm sure that it being an even year is not the cause
but you cannot deny there is a correlation.
Maybe he’ll be awesome in 2012 since we didn’t make the playoffs in 2011, less innings on his arm and all that.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
Yup.
Or maybe in his odd years he’s amped it up to disprove his even years. And since last year ended so poorly, he’ll amp up this year.
We’ll see.
I guess that’s why I said “to this point”. I do agree that he’s in no way a sure thing, though.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
If he gets amped up based on the disappointments from the year before
we should expect Pedro circa 1999-2000 next year from him.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
Commander Kickass of the @#$% Yeah Brigade
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Dude, seriously,
you can’t mention Pedro Martinez and that piece of shit in the same thought. Even jokingly.
Mediocre April.
How’s Jon Lester the rest of the season? Pretty damn good. Even year Beckett? Maybe but had he not been embarrassed like he was in September and the early part of the off-season, I’d be worried about that. But Josh Beckett is as just as arrogant as any player in baseball. I’ll bet he’s working his ass off to make sure “even year Beckett” doesn’t happen this year. Buchholz is the one I worry the most about, because of his injury history, but until he’s injured again, if that happens, I’m hopeful he can stay healthy. And it’s not like our pitching is the only pitching that has question marks.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
I never said ours was the only pitching with questions
but this is the offseason, this is when we focus on our needs, not anyone else’s.
You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way.
-Johnny Cash
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 14, 2011 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
I have been focused on our needs.
Show me one of my posts where I have said we don’t need pitching. My point is that while our pitching is suspect right now, doesn’t mean they will be during the season. And we honestly don’t who else they’ll be bringing in. At this point in the off-season all you can do is focus on the questions about teams because you don’t have games to watch and judge how good they are.
by aubatron2011 on Dec 14, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
This team has given me zero reason to have faith in their moves
So I either laugh, or cry. I choose laughter.
It's probably a good idea to have a veteran like Shoppach begin the year as back up,
Let Lavarnway start the year in AAA to take the pressure off him, and then ease him onto the big league team, while working on a way to trade Shoppach, who ideally at this point has been mashing lefties and throwing out lots of baserunners. This really isn’t such a bad move; catcher depth is hugely important.

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