Ryan Madson's Deal, And How It Affects The Red Sox And Jonathan Papelbon
The Phillies are on the verge of inking Ryan Madson to a four-year deal worth $44 million, with an option for a fifth year at $13 million. While there have been rumbles that this deal isn't as close as it was presented to be yesterday, indications are still that this is happening.
This is a longer deal than expected for Madson, who has been great the last few years, but doesn't have the kind of closer background that you normally see as a prerequisite to a team going crazy on a dollars for a reliever. What it might mean for some closers with far more experience -- and better track records -- is even larger deals than they were anticipating. That "might" is important, though, as with the Phillies out of the closer race (and the Yankees already sitting on both Mariano Rivera and Rafael Soriano), the number of teams who can afford the kind of contract that, say, Jonathan Papelbon might now be expecting in a post-Madson world, is limited.
A look at the clubs who recently lost closers tells the story. The Twins Joe Nathan is a free agent, but they are planning to cut payroll down to $100 million this season, and will already have spent upwards of $80 million this year on the 12 players they have under contract or are arb-eligible. They also look to be rebuilding, and therefore, a closer who might want something like a four-year, $56-60 million deal would hold no interest for them. The Padres plan to offer Heath Bell arbitration, and, failing that, they aren't about to shell out for Papelbon. The Dodgers' Jonathan Broxton is a free agent, but they are in the middle of a sale, and famously out of money thanks to owner Frank McCourt, who needs the team to sell for $1.2 billion just to break even on the transaction.
The Blue Jays have the money, but whether they have the will to spend huge on a closer right now, when they aren't expected to be able to pass the Rays, Yankees, or Sox in the standings, is more of a question. This would be my bet for a Joe Nathan landing -- a deal with incentives, in the hopes he stabilizes the bullpen on the cheap. Texas acquired Mike Adams at the trade deadline in 2011, so even if the plan to move Neftali Feliz to the rotation goes through, they might want to spend their money somewhere else. The Tigers need help in the bullpen, but already picked up their option on Jose Valverde; Papelbon isn't going to be offered a long-term, big money deal to set-up, and he is going to want to close, anyway.
That's not every team by any means, but it's a look at many of the ones with openings and some money. Each of those clubs put a closer on the market (except for Detroit), as did the Reds (declined Francisco Cordero's option) and the Brewers (set-up man for them, but closer to everyone else Francisco Rodriguez is also available). There are more closers than there are teams capable of paying them big money.
Papelbon and his agent -- and really, every closer and their agent -- have every right to be excited about Madson's potential contract, and while it might mean a few more dollars than expected, the chances are just as good that it won't have a major impact. It's not like these pitchers are all going to take a stand if Madson's deal is labeled an aberration of a recklessly spending Philly team -- Ryan Howard's extension didn't get Adrian Gonzalez $30M-plus a year, and if Albert Pujols were paid appropriately relative to Howard's mega-deal, he would be getting paid more than the entire Padres team Gonzalez left behind.
The question here, though, is if Madson's deal does throw the market into a spending frenzy. What do the Red Sox do then? Boston is lucky, in a sense, as they are not bereft of reliever options, even if they are lacking in elite ones. Dan Wheeler and Boston both appeared interested in working out a contract where he returns to the team, but even without that, the pen already has Daniel Bard, Matt Albers, Alfredo Aceves, Felix Doubront, Franklin Morales, Kyle Weiland if they choose to put him there, Bobby Jenks if he's physically capable of it, Junichi Tazawa in the same situation as Weiland, Scott Atchison still on the 40-man -- those guys aren't going to replicate Papelbon's production by any means, but the Sox can put together a cost-effective and effective pen together simply by looking in-house, avoiding the potential madness of this winter's reliever crop.
Papelbon has been fantastic in his Red Sox career, and is likely worth the money in the sense that the market has dictated "This is what a reliever is worth." The Red Sox do not often sign relievers to long-term deals, though, so chances are good they would rather bow out than overpay Papelbon if they feel he is too much of a risk based on what the market has decided he is worth (let it be said that all indications are that they would love to have Papelbon, though -- but the price matters). While they might miss Papelbon's elite production, what they won't be missing is whatever the money saved on letting Papelbon walk signs -- how do you feel about a Carlos Beltran in right field, or the ability to retain David Ortiz while also trading for a quality starting pitcher under contract? This whole winter is connected, and if the Red Sox have to lose Papelbon's production thanks to the Phillies, they will be able to make it up elsewhere on the field -- unlike whoever ties up their budget in a single reliever for the next four-to-five years.
81 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I think Ryan Madson’s contract will go down as one of the worst in history of relievers, if not the worst, when the four years are up. The deal still isn’t finalized (Amaro needs approval from the bosses) but it’s close to it.
That being said, if Papelbon gets a deal for more than Madson’s deal, and it’s with the Red Sox….I will…I will personally send a gift basket to Ben Cherington. (Best I could think of)
Madson and the Phillies just set a terrible market price for relievers, and the Phillies should be embarrassed for being the ones to do so.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Writer/Editor for Pinstripe Alley, Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Look, a flying monkey!
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Writer/Editor for Pinstripe Alley, Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Soriano might be #2, but that Madson deal is just unbelievable.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Writer/Editor for Pinstripe Alley, Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
I know you're a Yankees fan, but...
… paying that kind of money to a set up guy, with opt outs built in so he can leave the team if he performs well (or you get stuck with him when he stinks up the joint). I know Madson’s deal is crazy money and length, but the Soriano deal is worse, in my opinion.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Madson would end up a closer for the duration, in theory, right?
As opposed to a set up guy getting paid ridiculous money, with an option to walk away as soon as his performance suggests that he could get a longer term deal for that kind of money somewhere else?
And the “not opting out” to stick around with the Yankees seems far-fetched, like how CC got another $30 million from them to stick around this year.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I never got why the Yankees keep putting those opt-out clauses in there...
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
opt outs built in so he can leave the team if he performs well
and I really hope he does!
To me, Soriano’s deal is awful, but Madson’s been a closer for what, a year? The Phillies set the market themselves at the worst possible figure, and not even with the best relief pitcher. The Yankees made a bone head move, but the Phillies filled an actual need of theirs with a questionable reliever on a deal they could have gotten a much better pitcher for.
The circumstances make me feel the Phillies deal is worse, though the title makes the Yankees deal seem worse. I see both sides of the argument.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Writer/Editor for Pinstripe Alley, Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
And now... a week later, they've actually signed the best available FA closer.
Admit it… you’re happy to see Paps in Philly instead of Boston for 2012.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Sign George Sherril as our lefty setup man
Make Weiland the “closer,” keep Bard in the fireman role.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
Not at all
He’s ridiculous the first time through a lineup. It’s the second and third time he sees batter that they tee off on him.
Not to mention the idea of a “closer” is possibly the stupidest idea in baseball. I’d rather have an “okay” reliever in the ninth inning and save our good relievers for when it matters.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
Ah yes.....
the famous “closer by comittee”
the trouble is, you don’t really know when the most critical 3 outs will take place during a game. Sure, there are key situations during a game and thats why we have middle relievers and situational relievers. But when the 9th inning roll around and 3 outs = a win, those are the most critical outs.
They really aren't
when a team leading in the 9th inning wins 95% of games no matter who is pitching the 9th. I’d rather have my “closer” come in with no outs and bases loaded in the 8th than go to my not-as-good setup guy in that situation.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
Yes, in that exampl
as narrow as it is…yes, I would bring my closer in the 8th inning in that situation. If this was the Sox of the past couple of years, and I stil had Bard available, I would go to Bard first, but again, this is a very narrow example.
actually, they are
at the point you enter the 9th, the three outs remaining are indeed the most critical outs! Just like Scoop said! :-D
More seriously, later outs in the game DO have higher leverage because you have fewer outs left for YOUR team to score with. The fewer outs your team has remaining to work with, the lower chance YOUR team will be able to score runs.
If you give up the lead in the 8th, your win probabilities are still above zero. If you give up the lead in the bottom of the 9th, game over.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
I think you are both saying the same thing, sort of.
If we think Bard is the best high leverage pitcher (September 2011 aside), then having him available to get one out in the 7th (with runners on second and third in a one run game) or the 8th (bases loaded and no outs), with someone else in the “closers” role (Weiland, Papelbon, Tazawa…), we have the pitcher for the high leverage outs, and someone else to get the final three outs.
At the end of the day, the guy getting the final three outs gets the big bucks, so might not kill us to keep using Bard as the high leverage guy (and keep him as a cheap option as we negotiate his next contract with the team), and move him to closer when we find another live arm down in the farm for that high leverage role.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I feel like I rant about this every off-season, but...
likely worth the money in the sense that the market has dictated “This is what a reliever is worth.”
This is complete horseshit. One team spends an assload of money stupidly, so all other teams have to fall in line now? That doesn’t make a lick of business sense. The market is not “set”. All of these GMs have the ability to look at that deal objectively and say, “Whoa. No way I’m doing that.”
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
No one puts a gun to their heads to force them to sign them
But if the market says — and this takes more than one signing — that closers are expensive, some teams will fall in line in order to get a closer. This isn’t the same as saying everyone just goes and pays that price because they have to.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Nov 9, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
I just don't really understand who else besides the Phillies and Sox
needs a closer and is going to pay that amount or more.
Marmol?
in any case, they aren’t gonna win it all in 2012. No sense in paying a closer $45 million now.
Except the Yankees.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
Yankees
has Soriano opted out yet? If he does, I wonder if the Yankees will give Paps a godfather deal to secure a top closer after Mo’s contract expires after next season? Would Paps accept a setup role in 2012?
Not after the numbers he put up in 2011.
He’s taking that 2012 contract to the bank.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Rangers?
They have been talking about moving Perez to the rotatin for two years and everyone keeps talking aobut their big local media money.
that could be
Feliz you mean. They could be a possible match. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me for them to spend that much on a reliever, but then, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me for ANYONE to spend that kind of money on a reliever, so they may make as good a match as anyone.
Not just a "reliever"
Paps may be the best, most consistent CLOSER to ever hit the FA market. If any closer should get paid, its Paps.
As much as people bash him...
… and Rivera’s set up role for Wetteland (wait, did I get that right? Wetteland?) skews the numbers from early in his career, Paps numbers compare favorably with Mariano’s start.
Now, will he keep them up forever… not likely. However, he has had one of the most dominant starts to a career from a closer in MLB history (or am I totally forgetting someone else, like Gagme?).
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Best FREE AGENT closer
Paps may not be the best closer, but I can’t think of a better one that became a FA recently.
I'd say Mo after 2007 and then again after 2010
Other than that, yeah. Billy Wagner had been better when he signed with the Mets, but that was a while ago (at least in the sense that Papelbon has been exceptional, but hasn’t necessarily been consistent every year)
Okay... so ignoring the FA distinction above...
… who are the best closers of the last 10 years, and where does Paps fall on that list?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
When the Red Sox signed John Lackey for his 5/80+ contract
all I heard was, “Well, once AJ Burnett was signed by the Yankees, the market was set for that level of pitcher”. Even though everyone mocked it.
Jayson Werth signs for a metric tonne of cash. Oh, well, the market is set, so now you have to pay Carl Crawford that much and more. The market is set.
Now, I hear that Ryan Madson is on the verge of a 4/44 deal, and so the market is setting itself. And if that’s the way that front offices run themselves, then the front offices of baseball teams are run by fools. Apparently one bad apple ruins the apple cart in the MLB.
There is extra value placed on closers. I get that and, in fact, don’t even really disagree with it. But to view this signing period as jigsaw puzzle pieces falling into place once one person signs is insanity.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I guess if you look at it like this
In order to get a top-of-the-line clothes washer you are going to pay say $1200.00 (I know 1200 friggin dollars for a washer!) You could go and offer 200.00 for said washer but you would get laughed at. You could walk down to another store and get another brand of new washer – but its likely that it will be worth around 1200.00 since it is new, has similar features etc. The market for the washer has been set because some people (idiots) are willing to pay 1200.00 for their hard-earned cash for something that washes their clothes.
Of course you are free to go to the dent-store, buy refurbished or used and pay say 200.00 and you may get lucky and have it work for a few years.
Good plan.
A more correct analogy, though, is that you go to get a top-of-the-line close washer and they say it’s $2000. You say, “@#$% that, I ain’t payin’ 2 grand for a @#$%ing washing machine.” So does everyone else. Other people are selling cheaper washers that work as good, or almost, and buy them instead. Or go to the laundromat. Or…go to your mom’s house.
All of a sudden, Top Of The Line is like, “Summanabatch! No one will buy our washer! We better lower the price!”
Obviously, better usually costs more. But just because one dumbass paid too much at one store doesn’t mean everyone has to shop at that store now.
Man…I think this analogy has gone on to long. I’m not sure if any of that makes sense, but I’m hittin’ post anyhow.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I wouldn't mind this
I’d rather have a lefty though and basically let the hot hand between Weiland, Bard, and Jenks play in the 9th.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
Crazy
What a crazy, massive overpay by the Phillies. I’ve been advocating re-signing Papelbon, but if it takes 4 years at 15 per? It’s almost impossible to justify that kind of contract for a guy who pitches 60+ innings a year.
My thoughts exactly.
I’d like it if we could keep him, even at a slight overpay – but that would be way, way overpay, imho.
I don’t like to think what our pen might look like when Pap walks. Sigh …
Ben C. has a tough job on his hands.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Bard deserves a shot.
If he wants to start, and the FO and coaching staff think it is worth it, let him start.
If the franchise isn’t going to support him being a starter, then make him the closer and go get one of those guys mentioned to be the setup guy. Broxton would be a great choice, he’s high upside, high risk.
Rule #1: Don’t spend big money on the bullpen.
Rule #2: DON’T spend big money on the bullpen.
I only support resigning Papelbon, for what he’s going to want, if you commit Bard to starter. Then, you need Papelbon. If Bard isn’t going to start, he deserves to close. Spend Papelbons money elsewhere.
I've heard nothing to suggest that Bard would be a good starter.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
So...
…you haven’t heard about his three plus pitches, his desire to start or his 3.22 career FIP in 197 innings.
by UltimateCranston on Nov 9, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
I've heard that he was really bad in the minors...LIKE REALLY BAD...
and that he was converted to relief work in order to salvage him. And salvage him it did.
So, you can have an invaluable reliever, or a crappy starter.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
where does his desire to start come from?
All I’ve seen from him was a reporter asking him if he’d be interested in starting and him saying “yeah sure, maybe that’d be something I’d be interested in,” then a huge media blowup, followed by Bard backtracking and saying it wasn’t something he was really pursuing.
The Bobby Jenks signing
Which looked at the time like a way to keep Bard from closing, was probably one reason. There’s no money in being a setup man, unless Randy Levine negotiates your deal personally.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Nov 9, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
well I don't mean "deep in his soul, what makes him want to be a starter?"
I meant more of “uh, did he ever actually seriously say he wanted to move to the rotation?”
I love Paps for all he's done with this Franchise,
but sometimes it’s just time to move on. The money the Sox would have to re-sign him after this contract should be used for SP, whether it’s a FA or two, or trade + and an extension if necessary.
Spend on which available starter?
here we go again, talking about spending money on starting pitching or offense or defense….it does not work that way! There is no deli counter to step up to and order $10 million worth of starting pitching. The Red Sox and every other team have to decide among a small group of available players. I don’t see any FA starter not named CJ Wilson that should get the contract Madson is getting, so I don’t see how NOT giving Paplebon the money will help the Sox in other areas.
For all those sayng just let Paps walk, know what you are saying…the Sox will be walking away from the best closer in team history, the best closer not named Rivera over the past 5 years, a proven performer in the most critical situations, and a proven Boston performer.
Also, I can see many clubs you didn’t name as possible bidders for Paps, including the Cubs, Cardinals, Angels and, yes, the Yankees. Didn’t Marmol suck for the Cubs last year? And who drafted Paps? hmmmm.
Reply fail by Bloggy.
Look down…
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
just because he's the best out there now
doesn’t mean that they should spend whatever he costs on him. At a certain point, if there’s no one else appealing, you have to say “rather than spending $1000000000000000 on a mediocre pitcher because he’s the only free agent available, I’m going to save this money and use it either to provide salary relief in exchange for a player in a trade or to spend on next years awesome pitching free agent class”
Obviously, that was a hypothetical situation as Papelbon is not mediocre, there are other free agents, and no one besides Papelbon himself thinks that he will actually get a $1000000000000000 contract.
by wolf9309 on Nov 9, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Though I have no idea why I can’t do that and instead the system is flagging your post.
Oh noes! :-(
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Exactly.
There are some pitchers, which have been talking about that could be traded this offseason, that could get a big contract extension from the Sox because they are in their last year of their deals or are arbitration eligible and the Sox would want to eat up those years.
I'd be cool giving 4/45 to Marcum if he'd accept it.
Hell, I could go 5/70 if he’d accept it.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
You know, that deal for Jonathan Sanchez disappointed me.
I wouldn’t have minded seeing us trade for him, at that cost. Cabrera? Melky Cabrera?? (Yes, I know… monster season in 2011, but still… it’s MELKY CABRERA!!)
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
a proven performer in the most critical situations
Ummmm….
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Can someone look up his FIP the first time through the order for me please?
I don’t know where to look and I would like to show some facts.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
Wouldn't that be a pretty small sample though?
Not to say it can’t be true, but there’s a bit more substance backing up Paps compared to Weiland
by South Coast Ghost on Nov 9, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, it would be small sample
but any stats thrown up their to either support or damn Weiland in the majors are going to be of a small sample.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
I actually really like Weiland as a bullpen piece
Even a high-leverage one. But not sure about being a closer out of the gate.
I do, however, know you don’t put much actual value into the closer position. But I’m sure you also realize that the perceived “power” of the closer position isn’t going away anytime soon in either the general fanbase’s eyes or the management’s.
by South Coast Ghost on Nov 9, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
I realize that
I also know that the best way to get rid of that perception of power is to put a “shaky rookie” in the 9th inning. When we still win 90+ games with Weiland in the 9th it will help dismiss the “winning teams need a closer” myth.
Either that or make Weiland into an established closer, which is fine with me.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
Or Weiland takes over Bard's role...
… and Bard takes over as closer. I mean, perhaps we’re already to the point where Weiland is the next live arm to bring along, and move Bard to closer.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
I can't believe this line of discussion
Weiland???? You want to hand over the 9th inning to a shaky looking rookie when the 2012 Red Sox are going for a pennant(I guess)?
When leading in the ninth inning, baseball teams win 95% of games.
That is a statistic that has gone back longer than the “closer” existed. The “closer” role carries no more weight than what we give it after Holtzman created the save statistic. So yes, I do want to hand the 9th inning to a rookie pitcher while keeping our good relievers for tense situations like tying run in scoring position, less than two outs.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
Why can't Bard pitch the 9th if needed, just because he's not a "closer"?
Sox up by 1 or 2 in the 9th? Put him in.
Up by 1 or 2 with runners on in the 8th? Put him in. If he only uses a few pitches, then he should continue in the 9th. If he reaches 30 pitches but with still only 2 outs in the 9th, take him out. Screw the “save” stat.
The best relief pitchers should be used in the appropriate high leverage situations.
by OzTiger on Nov 10, 2011 1:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
The Waiting Game
Bloggy:
All of a sudden, Top Of The Line is like, "Summanabatch! No one will buy our washer! We better lower the price!"
See, this is the exact line of thinking Benny & Co. should hold with Papelbon. Sure he’s pretty much the only elite closer out there; however who is going to pay him? The possibility of the Yankees always looms large, but who is willing to drop 4 years/$44 million (and then some) on a closer at this point beyond Philly?
I would think playing some contract hardball would be a good idea, no?
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Yankees would then have to trade that absurd Soriano contract...
… and convince Paps that a year setting up for Rivera is good for him at this point in his career. (Mo is under contract for 2012, right?)
I’d say the Yankees are out, and that cannot be what Papelbon and his agent were hoping for when this free agency year rolled around. I’m sure they thought Mo would be ready to retire this year, or last year, and Paps would be in prime position to create a bidding war between the Sox and MFY.
Maybe they can pull it off between the Rangers and the Sox, or with the mystery team (ie. the Sox bidding against the Sox), but I think there’s a limited market for Paps.
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
The Madson deal is not really done
The Phillies are reconsidering their options, and one of those is Papelbon.
Really Now?
Now that’s interesting. Any sources?
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Looks like a bit of that online, but hadn't seen the Paps as a possibility before.
Would make sense… if Madson wants that much, see if Paps would take it?
I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.
Wait ’til next year!
Let him walk.
Take the pick, which will be more valuable. Then sign someone else for less money.
My Twitter @totheights

by 




























