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Around SBN: Win or Lose, Boston Celtics' New Big 3 Era A Success

A Three-Year Deal For David Ortiz?

"Don't sign a contract with an option, Albert. Just don't, man. They will use it against you."

David Ortiz reportedly is looking for a three-year contract from either the Red Sox or a new team willing to give it to him. Contracts that guarantee the ages Ortiz is looking to have locked up (36, 37, and 38) are rare, especially for a DH. Frank Thomas hit .252/.361/.472 as a 34-year-old, and received a two-year deal from the White Sox (then he posted a 149 OPS+ over the next two years). Jim Thome signed a six-year deal before the 2003 season, but only his age-36 and 37 seasons were covered by the contract -- his age-38 campaign was an option year, and therefore not guaranteed.

Looking a little further back, Edgar Martinez's contract expired after his age-37 season, prompting the Mariners to sign him to a one-year deal with an option for the next two seasons. Reggie Jackson signed a five-year deal with the Angels before the 1982 season, after his age-35 campaign. But those were the early days of free agency, too. There wasn't anything to compare many of these contracts to, and some ridiculous (for the time) dollars and years were thrown around in the name of bringing home a shiny new bauble. Jackson was also a part-time DH who played more outfield than anything, so his deal doesn't quite fit the bill.

What you often find with designated hitters at this late stage of their career are one-year deals, like the ones Ortiz's peers, Vladimir Guerrero and Hideki Matsui, signed before the 2011 campaign. Ortiz essentially inked one as well, thanks to that one-year option, a move that was an overpay for a year in the sense of how the market was going. For Ortiz, though, it fit, as the extra monetary padding helped quiet the multi-year deal discussion. Temporarily, anyway.

Star-divide

Ortiz had a fantastic 2011 campaign, one of the most productive ever for a 35-year-old (or older) designated hitter, so it's no wonder he is now speaking up about multiple years, market and history be damned:

Rk Player OPS+ Year Age Tm PA HR BA OBP SLG
1 Edgar Martinez 160 2001 38 SEA 581 23 .306 .423 .543
2 Edgar Martinez 158 1998 35 SEA 672 29 .322 .429 .565
3 Edgar Martinez 157 2000 37 SEA 665 37 .324 .423 .579
4 Jim Thome 155 2006 35 CHW 610 42 .288 .416 .598
5 David Ortiz 154 2011 35 BOS 605 29 .309 .398 .554
6 Edgar Martinez 152 1999 36 SEA 608 24 .337 .447 .554
7 Jim Thome 150 2007 36 CHW 536 35 .275 .410 .563
8 Frank Robinson 150 1973 37 CAL 630 30 .266 .372 .489
9 Jason Giambi 148 2006 35 NYY 579 37 .253 .413 .558
10 Hal McRae 147 1982 36 KCR 676 27 .308 .369 .542
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 11/29/2011.

Notice a theme, here? These names don't appear more than once for the most part. Thome has a pair of seasons, and Edgar Martinez has four -- yes, four of the top 10 35-and-up DH seasons are courtesy of Edgar. Other than that, it's all one offs. Jason Giambi has hit .236/.362/.458 since his one year on this list (113 OPS+). Frank Robinson, except for one more decent season, was a part-timer following his 1973. McRae had a 114 OPS+ after his age-36 season, sticking around for five more seasons, but, like Giambi, saw his playing time diminish.

As you can see, using the "But his age-35 season was amazing!" argument only goes so far, as the rest of these guys were pretty good at hitting a baseball, too. The main concern with whoever signs Ortiz is what you're getting. Is he going to turn out to be expensive and less useful with time? Will he end up as a part-timer, unable to face left-handers perhaps, or with a bat that slows and makes mistakes his only avenue for success? Or will he be that rarity, an Edgar Martinez, who just keeps on hitting for years?

We don't know. The Red Sox don't, either. And neither do any of the teams courting Ortiz. They might have an idea, sure -- so do we -- but they don't know.

Risk is what makes three years to Ortiz problematic. The reward is there for a team brave enough, misguided enough, or full of enough depth to make it work. But the investment of years and dollars that Ortiz expects is going to make things difficult for most clubs. They might be more afraid of locking up the next Giambi, McRae, or Frank Robinson than they are excited at the prospect of the next Edgar Martinez.

That makes Ortiz leaving Boston even more unlikely, as another team has to do something somewhat nuts to pull him away from the Sox. Ortiz will likely end up with a heavily-compensated one-year deal, or a two-year contract. The risk with Ortiz goes down the fewer years are committed to him, and given his age and the history of players at his position, it's hard to imagine anyone absorbing three years of risk.

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There's certainly no reason for him to start with 2 years

Makes perfect negotiating sense to begin with three and then whittle it down to 2 + an option for a higher AAV.

by Sologub on Nov 29, 2011 12:05 PM EST reply actions  

Absolutely.

Better chance he gets two this way, since another team might be willing to try him at two, forcing Boston to consider it.

by Marc Normandin on Nov 29, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd be pretty shocked if he got less than 2 years.

Unless someone was willing to significantly overpay on a one year deal, say 15MM, I can’t see how he gets less than 2.

Even if Ortiz underperforms for a two year deal, you gotta think his popularity would be worth it to some teams, especially small market ones.

by Sologub on Nov 29, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

And the Red Sox themselves...

Let’s be honest, he might not be the next Edgar Martinez, but he’s the other DH with a shot at the HOF. I think the Sox should offer him two years with solid annual salaries, and a third year option with a buy out that makes the two year deal a better AAV.

If he’s good the next two, he earns the right to the third year… if he’s not, we pay him for the popularity, the fan favorite status over the next two years.

Have to admit, with the Bobby V signing and all the other moves we’ve made so far, I’m not happy with the 2012 Sox. If we lose Big Papi too? It really doesn’t feel right…

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til next year!

by AlohaSox on Nov 30, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, wow, Edgar Martinez was ridiculous.

I hope this guy can someday be in the Hall of Fame.

by Sologub on Nov 29, 2011 12:15 PM EST reply actions  

Martinez hit .322/.430/.561

From age 35 through 38. That cumulative OPS+ of 157 is higher than any single-season one DHs those ages has ever posted, excepting Martinez.

by Marc Normandin on Nov 29, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

if this article accomplishes nothing else

It hopefully will help reach at least a few more lost souls in the wilderness with learned Gospel of PUT EDGAR IN THE FREAKING HALL!!!!!!!

Jeeze, was he a hell of a hitter or what?

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Nov 29, 2011 2:27 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

It does make you appreciate him more

Since he was a DH it may not happen, but his hitting at that age was incredibly impressive.

simul justus et peccator

by cavman on Nov 29, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course, if interleague is expanding

that devalues him more after this year. Can’t imagine he get 3 years anywhere. Two is reasonable.

by wolf9309 on Nov 29, 2011 12:18 PM EST reply actions  

Did they say it is getting expanded? I.E. More Interleague games?

I was under the impression that it was just getting stretched out over the whole year. So, instead of every team having interleague play at once you might have one this week and one next week.

I think having it stretched out actually helps him if there are no additional games. At least that way it is less likely you have to go a stretch of 6-9 games without him at the DH position. Plus, there is one additional AL team to fit in DH-rules games for.

by The Name is Dalton on Dec 1, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

everyone seems to have the impression it is being expanded to something like 30 games

which I don’t understand, as it seems to me that they could actually get away with LESS interleague games if they stretched them out one series at a time.

by wolf9309 on Dec 1, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

What makes sense...

A 2-year guarantee with attainable goals for a 3rd based on performance in ’12 and ’13 vs. ’11.

Boy, is he gonna look UUUUUGLY in those retro-Oriole or Blue Jay unis. Can’t see Cherington and the Sox being smart here.

by The Bat on Nov 29, 2011 12:36 PM EST reply actions  

I think he is expendable if any of the following take place

Youk is moving to DH and not trade bait
Lavarnway is a possible catcher/DH candidate
Beltran is a consideration for Of & DH time (based upon his knees)

I would not want to see anything past 2 years period unless it is solely a club option and a generous buyout so he has his dignity….wouldn’t be funny if he went to arbitration?

"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis

by Dave D on Nov 29, 2011 12:42 PM EST reply actions  

* it would be funny I meant to type

"Man that ball got outta here in a hurry, you know anything that travels that far oughta have a damn stewardess on it, don't you think?" - Crash Davis

by Dave D on Nov 29, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Per Part 3

I seem to recall Cherrington saying that whether or not Papi comes back DOES have a big impact on what they do in RF.

Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"

by Rogue Nine on Nov 29, 2011 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL No.

If he truly wants a 3 year deal than it is the end of an era here in Boston.

My Twitter @totheights

by totheights on Nov 29, 2011 1:17 PM EST reply actions  

There is no way he gets this, with any team.

Has to be a negotiating tactic…..or his agent is a dummy.

by STBadly on Nov 29, 2011 4:16 PM EST reply actions  

Even if there was a huge market, I can't possibly see him getting 3

Gotta remember that he’s only an option for 16 teams, unless someone wants to get crazy and put a 35 year old, sub par defensive player at first. You can wittle that down even further when you count out teams with established DH’s. So there goes NY, TX, Chicago, Detroit, and probably LA. Remove teams who won’t want/don’t have the flexibilty to pay a guy $10 million a year and you can throw out TB, Oakland, KC. That leaves a very small market from which to negotiate with…if the Sox want to keep him it doesn’t look like they’ll be outbid. Plus as many have mentioned already, the value of the DH will decrease greatly next season when teams are playing more and more interleague games.

I’m guessing something along the lines of 2 for $7.5-10, possibly with a vesting option for the 2nd. That’s being pretty generous in this market.

Imagine if Cherington’s first moves would be letting Ortiz go and hiring Bobby V. There would be an uprising.

by ritz on Nov 29, 2011 5:31 PM EST reply actions  

There are 14 teams in the AL

15 if you count Houston.

I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Nov 29, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

and houston doesn't even count

because as soon as they hit the AL, they need a left fielder, not a DH

by wolf9309 on Nov 30, 2011 12:54 AM EST up reply actions  

not true!

Carlos Lee’s deal is up after this year. So once they can have a DH, they won’t have Lee anymore. Which figures.

by Marc Normandin on Nov 30, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions  

oh yeah

I coulda sworn it was another two years

by wolf9309 on Nov 30, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, but at that price, it didn't cause an uprising.

It is hard to imagine that someone will offer Big Papi enough money or years to price him out of the Red Sox reach… Paps was the best closer in the game, and is still young… while Big Papi is clearly the best DH in the game, he’s older and has a lot of risk.

Again, hard to believe anyone will take as big a gamble there.

For our sake, I really hope no one does, and he’s back with the Sox in 2012.

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til next year!

by AlohaSox on Nov 30, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Craig Kimbrel was better than Papelbon last year.

Paps was the best available closer, but he’s not the best in the game.

I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Nov 30, 2011 7:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, LAST one year

Papelbon got paid because he has been one of the top 2 most consistent performers over the past 5 years. Even if Kimbrel was available, he would not have recieved a richer contract than Paps.

by Scoop1981 on Dec 1, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Hence my statement...

Though clearly Mariano is the best, as painful as that is to admit. I truly meant “one of the best” and the youngest, most consistent option available.

Anyway… I think my point is still made there.

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til next year!

by AlohaSox on Dec 2, 2011 7:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Pap's still younger!

though, yeah, only by three months.

by wolf9309 on Dec 3, 2011 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

My age comment was comparing to Mariano.

Ie. Mariano is the most consistent, best closer in the game (not just looking at a single season), but Paps is probably #2 over the last 5 (?) years, and much younger.

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til next year!

by AlohaSox on Dec 5, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

If not Papi, then who?

Sure, we can play the value game all day long and rate Papi vs. Vlad, Matusi, Thome, etc., but which available player do we sign to replace Papi?
In my mind there is very little risk in giving Papi a 2 year, $20-24 million deal. He had an excellent season in 2011 and there is no reason to think he won’t equal or approximate that performace for at least 2012. So the real risk is a a dropoff of some kind in 2013, and I think the Red Sox can afford to take that “risk” given the recent performance and the lack of better alternatives on the market.
If it is important for Papi and his agent to announce a 3 year deal, the Sox can include an option year with a buyout.

by Scoop1981 on Dec 1, 2011 1:14 PM EST reply actions  

I feel like the alternative is Youk...

… with a free agent signed to play third base, not DH. And if Lavarnway spells Youk, he’s still capable of taking the glove into the field at 3B or 1B to spell the new 3B or Adrian.

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til next year!

by AlohaSox on Dec 2, 2011 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

looking over the list of free agent third basemen

yup, better re-sign Ortiz.

Or make sure Lowrie is super-healthy.

by wolf9309 on Dec 3, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

To be clear, I'm in the resign Papi camp.

I love Youk too, but I’m in the “let’s trade Youk while he still has some value as a recent MVP candidate” camp… not necessarily in the proposed deal for Hanley Ramirez, but if someone is willing to offer us a big enough package, it might be the right time.

That assumes we’ve signed Big Papi to a two year deal at DH, and recognizing that Youk is not a long term solution at third base. Of course, for 2012, I’d be happy to have Youk at third, Big Papi at DH and us make moves for SP. I just think if we don’t deal Youk this offseason, we’re not likely to get anything back for him when it comes time to move on.

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til next year!

by AlohaSox on Dec 5, 2011 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

How does the hiring of Valentine affect Papi?

I could see them clashing a lot, but that’s just me.

by aubatron2011 on Dec 1, 2011 2:01 PM EST reply actions  

You maybe right.

But the reports of “unnamed” players griping at this hiring, which they really only have themselves to blame for, it should be interesting.

by aubatron2011 on Dec 1, 2011 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

well I'm thinking in terms of his free agency

he probably would’ve preferred to have Tito, but I still don’t think the market for Ortiz legitimately includes anyone but the Sox

by wolf9309 on Dec 2, 2011 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

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