Why The Red Sox Not Signing C.J. Wilson Is Fine
Yesterday, an odd thing happened. Jon Morosi of Fox Sports reported on the interest surrounding C.J. Wilson, the top pitcher on the free agent market, and the Red Sox were curiously missing from that list. Now, I don't mean curious in the sense that we expected Boston to be there going after Wilson, but curious in the sense that their name -- whether through media reports, "anonymous" agent feeds, or actual sourcing -- is associated with the top names on the market, to at least gauge interest or help drive up the price.
An official with one of the involved clubs predicted that the Texas Rangers left-hander would get "at least five years" with an option for a sixth year; an official of another club told FOXSports.com that Wilson could end up with a six-year deal.
In other words, Wilson, who turns 31 this week, appears likely to surpass the five-year, $82.5 million guarantees received by John Lackey and A.J. Burnett in recent years.
The Yankees, Angels, Blue Jays, Marlins, Nationals, and Rangers are among the teams that have already expressed interest in Wilson, sources say.
It's not surprising that the Red Sox wouldn't be in on a pitcher expected to get that much for that long. New general manager Ben Cherington made it a point in his initial press conference to point out that trades and pitchers they could buy-low on for one-year deals were probably the direction they would go in, and, given their rotation has a core of Jon Lester, Josh Beckett, and Clay Buchholz, that's not a bad thing. They are three strong already, and their focus should be on signing pitchers who will stick at the back of the rotation, as well as shoring up their depth in case someone or someones go down.
Signing Wilson doesn't help them accomplish their goals. He would be costly, and even with Jonathan Papelbon gone to Philadelphia, freeing up some money, there are other places it needs to go. If Boston just needed one rotation spot and the rest of the roster was set, Wilson might make sense, but there are reasons to think we should be happy that this is not the case.
Wilson has been a starting pitcher for two years, and done very well in that role. He has a 3.14 ERA over 427-1/3 innings the last two seasons, including another 52-1/3 innings in the playoffs, where he has a 4.82 ERA, 7.4 K/9, and five walks per nine. Combine that together, and in the 480 innings he has pitched in the rotation the last two seasons, he has 7.9 strikeouts per nine (almost a full strikeout above the league average), 3.7 walks per nine (more than half-a-walk worse than average) and a 2.1 K/BB, also average-ish. He leans more groundball than flyball-oriented, but he's much more Clay Buchholz than Derek Lowe in that regard, hovering around the 50 percent mark.
You might be wondering why I have included those playoff stats alongside his regular season numbers. Part of the reason is the quality of competition: Wilson has had to face the Rays twice, the Yankees once, the Tigers once, and the Cardinals once in October the past two years. Those are all high-quality opponents, and starters aren't expected to be at their very best against lineups like that every time out. But hey, that's life in the AL East for Red Sox pitchers, as well as CC Sabathia, David Price, James Shields, and so on. Those pitchers are not only great from an un-adjusted standpoint, but if you consider the quality of their competition, they are even more impressive.
Wilson, on the other hand, has not had to face the toughest competition as a starter. And I don't even mean just because he has been in the AL West. Statistically speaking, Wilson has faced the softest lineups of any starter in the major leagues, minimum 100 innings pitched, for two years running. Baseball Prospectus's Quality of Opponents report details the combined aptitude of opposing lineups by way of OPS, and Wilson ranks 144 out of 144 and 147 out of 147 starters in the last two years. While David Price's opponents combined for an OPS of 773 in 2011, Wilson's put up a 728 showing. In 2010, it was Brandon Morrow taking the heaviest beating in the AL East and the AL (773), while Wilson's opponents were at 733.
Wilson has been great the last two years, there is no doubt about that. But he would have been less great had he faced tougher opponents far more often. This isn't a piece going out of its way to say he would pitch like he did this past October against the Yankees, Jays, or Rays every time out, but is merely there to say that, with the Red Sox coming up against the luxury tax even without another major five- or six-year deal for a starter in the works, being mindful of the fact that Wilson will not be exactly like who he has been in Texas the past two years is fine. It's going to take a huge commitment to sign Wilson, who is the same age John Lackey was when he was a free agent. Should something go amiss, or his command vanishes -- and command, though he has it in spades, is what Wilson is all about -- whoever signs him would be left footing a hefty bill for a long time for a guy who wasn't signed because of his stuff.
There would be nothing wrong with signing Wilson if the money was there, but given he is basically the only big-time starter available, the market is likely to get a little out of control. He will get one more year than he should, if not two more, and for likely $18 million or so per year. Not being involved in that, given Boston's other long-term commitments and present-day needs, is understandable.
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Couldn't agree more
Ever since seeing Wilson as top of the free agent class I’ve been thankful it didn’t make sense for the Red Sox to go after him. Having watched him a few times over the last couple of seasons I have never seen him as anythi than very good at what he does. He is not an outstanding pitcher nor his stuff great, and that is the kind money he will be getting for a few years to come. Boston will be better off spending their money on a few lower end guys with 1-2 year incentive-laden deals and saving the bigger money for when there is a lot more on the table.
hahaha well to be fair
Colon could’ve fit into either category, depending on whether you were looking at his time with the Sox or Yankees.
Steve Avery and Bret Saberhagen
This is going back a bit, and Sabes actually did have one good year untill his arm fell off on the mound. Hesketh was very good for one year, and very bad, the next.
Garcia
Garcia was helped by the undeniable fact that players perform better in pinstripes then anywhere else. I give you Tom Gordon, for one, and the list goes on and on.
Hmmm
Ed Whitson, Jack McDowell, AJ Burnett, Denny Neagle, Ted Lilly, Jeff Weaver, Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, and the list goes on and on.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Nov 16, 2011 9:05 AM EST up reply actions
Give me some time, and I will outnumber your Whitsons and Mcdowells.I gues it doesnt count that Johnson and Brown were at the end of their careers.
I don't know
Does it count that Smoltz was at the end of his?
by The Name is Dalton on Nov 17, 2011 8:51 AM EST up reply actions
Or Steve Avery?
Whose career ended at a young age, but it was within a year or two of his last years in the majors.
by The Name is Dalton on Nov 17, 2011 8:53 AM EST up reply actions
Smoltz
Yes it does count,and proves how foolish the Sox can be with “buy low,high reward” bla bla bla.
I'm not arguing that buying the old guys under that thought process isn't silly...don't necessarily disagree with that point of yours.
It was related more to this discussion tangent about how players perform better in pinstripes than elsewhere. People brought up guys that contradict that notion and point out that team is equally capable of doing these deals that turn out to be turds.
by The Name is Dalton on Nov 17, 2011 9:00 AM EST up reply actions
Okay, it’s a theory, and should not have been stated as a fact. It just seems that way.I will do more research on this.
I would just save your energy
At the end it really seems some guys just crack under the pressure of New York, or whatever. And some guys just do better there whether it be their pitching style, or thriving under pressure or maybe responding to the bagels or something.
In the end every pitcher and person is different, and even then it may just be at what point they are there. Some guys mature at 22-24 (like Avery) and go into a tailspin…other guys don’t get really good until their late 20’s-early 30’s. Seems like something you could spend days on and still come up scratching your head on all the variables.
by The Name is Dalton on Nov 17, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
Pavano is another one
Who had more success before AND after he left although his problems were injury related. Kyle Farnsworth is another. Javier Vazquez has had two of his worst non-rookie years in New York and did better elsewhere.
Can we all just agree that alot of players pitch better in New York than elsewhere, and that alot of players also pitch better elsewhere than in New York?
We could go all day back and forth with dozens of names on each side. Having so many on each side of the coin proves that it is not a fact. It’s simply how it is…and I’m sure it applies to other teams as well.
by The Name is Dalton on Nov 17, 2011 9:09 AM EST up reply actions
Have to Love It
It is nice to remember the ones that got away. The Yankees had Tyler Clippard,Jon Axford,Ian Kennedy and Aceves. Consider this bullpen:
Rivera
Robertson
Wade (another one who got good in pinstipes)
Clippard
Axford
With such a strong bullpen, Ace would join Kennedy along with Sabbathia,Nova and Burnett for a strong rotation.
Melky Cabrera would join Granderson (best year with the Yankees) and Swisher, with Gardner backing up.
Farnsworth
He is one that finnally put it together with Tampa, but you could add him to that bullpen
hm
you seem to be right.
New offseason plan!
Red Sox uniforms with pinstripes! It’ll hurt at first, but it’ll be worth it.
Pretty sure the reason old players do well in pinstripes
is because the Yankees are getting a little “medical help.”
That’s right, the Yankees are in the gummy berry juice black market.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Nov 17, 2011 4:05 AM EST up reply actions
How about Sparky Lyle,or more recently,Luis Ayala,last year.Look up his numbers from the previous 4 years.Look up Pedro Ramos, and see how much better he got back in 64,actually saving the last Yankee pennant from those days. There are many more examples. Any Red Sox fan older then 30 knows this to be true.
I totally agree with this.
If the Sox could get him on the cheap and didn’t have to fill in for Lackey and Dice-K, signing Wilson would make sense. But having to replace BOTH Dice and Lackey, and the fact he won’t be cheap, makes the Sox smart not getting involved. A trade for a pitcher is highly probable, I don’t know who it will be for, but I don’t expect Matt Cain or Cole Hamels to be walking through that door.
Lackey
Theoretically, Lackey’s salary for this year should be picked up by insurance,freeing up 16 million. The Sox would prefer not to talk about that.
well may be and probably will be, at least in part
but pretty much only they know if they have his contract insured and how much it was insured.
Yeah I would suspect especially the cases
Where both parties know there is some sort of damage to his arm before the contract was signed, as was the case with Lackey
by The Name is Dalton on Nov 17, 2011 9:10 AM EST up reply actions
although, those ones would be particularly expensive to insure
it’s entirely possible that the injury clause in his contract was an insurance substitute
Possibly
I will be the first to admit I don’t really know how the insurance costs on sports contracts are, or what they amounts they get from the insurance companies typically are in cases like this.
I know Lackey’s AAV (I think?) goes down in terms of the luxury cap with that clause, but it seems like if there was an insurance policy they might be able to get back at least part of his salary for 2012. Heck, even getting 50% of his 2012 salary paid by the insurance company seems like it would be worth much more than just getting him on the cheap when he is 36 years old and having some extra luxury cap room.
Getting 5% of your payroll back from an insurance company seems like it would be worth insuring, although from what I understand the premiums have gone up a lot over the last ten years or so
by The Name is Dalton on Nov 17, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
yeah I also don't know the numbers involved
but it seems to me that if I were an insurance company, being asked to insure and $80 million contract against injury for a player that already had been injured enough that they put a medical clause in the contract, I’d laugh and charge at least $20 million to do it.
Me too
In fact, there might not have been an insurance company even willing to insure his elbow. Insurance companies at times have clauses that pre-existing conditions are exempted from the coverage, and where it was well known that Lackey had damage in his elbow they had a clause for it. They might have said, “we’ll insure any shoulder or back injuries, but no way on his elbow”
Either way, I suspect we won’t get a definitive answer on it,
by The Name is Dalton on Nov 17, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
Two Approaches
With Wilson, you have to ask yourself if you would like to win it all this year. Not saying he would make the difference,but he might. If you want to go a more conservative route, you re-sign Bedard (and I hope they do) and try Bard,or someone else as the 5th starter.Another guy who would look good is Edwin Jackson,for this year.You would then save your resources for Cain or Hamels for ’13.
Yup.
I have no problem in passing on Wilson. I like to think that we’ve learned something from the Lackey signing.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
In the two years as a starter
Boston has lost every game against C.J. started.
YOu also ignored his CyYoungish away game #s, vs. just pretty good #s in th ehitter’s paradise in Arlington.
Baseball's hard, guys. I mean, it really is. You can love it but, believe me, it don't always love you back. It's kind of like dating a German chick, you know?
that's 5 games btw
Baseball's hard, guys. I mean, it really is. You can love it but, believe me, it don't always love you back. It's kind of like dating a German chick, you know?
by Buttermaker on Nov 15, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not ignoring anything
I included every single start he has made over the last two years in those numbers, which is a much larger set of data than five starts.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Nov 15, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
You are forgetting something
Those five starts cost the sox 5 potential wins.
...and John Lackey beat the Sox in the 2009 playoffs with a gutsy performance.
Now…he’s just gut-sy.
he has been absolutely spectacular on the Red Sox
of course, if the Red Sox signed him, he would literally never face the Red Sox lineup, so thank god that hasn’t colored our front office’s perception.
I don't want him
but considering our track record against him, I sure hope he stays out of the AL East.
by superdaveyboy on Nov 15, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
Point Taken
You might have a point there, as I knew that CC’s numbers would drop(but not that much) by not facing the Sox. Still, at this time,where the team has a shot to win,Wilson would be a wise signing. Four good starters can take a team along way.
Exactly right. What’s wrong with having four quality starters? Why should you have to sift through the Savation Army bin for players when you are in the 2nd largest market in the game. Just not having to face Wilson could add 3 or 4 wins.
Hold off on giving out money now
potentially pick up someone like Cain, Marcum, or Danks next year.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Nov 15, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
Or try and work out a trade for one of those
three and sign them to an extension.
by aubatron2011 on Nov 15, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
That too.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Nov 15, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
Floyd
Gavin Floyd would be a better bet. He has slightly superior numbers then Danks. He has pitched for a horribble team in a launching pad. He Is 6-0 against the Sox. Never underestimate the potential value of getting someone who beats you ll the time. C.J. fits that mold, too.
Never underestimate the potential value of getting someone who beats you ll the time.
That worked out great with Cral Crawford last season, didn’t it?
As for Floyd and Danks, their numbers are very similar.
2011:
Floyd – 4.37 ERA/3.81 FIP/3.73 xFIP 7.02 K/9 2.09 BB/9
Danks – 4.33 ERA/3.82 FIP/3.79 xFIP 7.13 K/9 2.43 BB/9
Career:
Floyd – 4.50 ERA/4.37 FIP/4.13 xFIP 6.89 K/9 2.96 BB/9
Danks – 4.03 ERA 4.14 FIP/4.12 xFIP 7.00 K/9 2.94 BB/9
Here’s where they are different: Danks is two years younger. Danks is left-handed. Danks has a higher swinging strike percentage. Danks is a fastball, cutter, change pitcher, while Floyd is a fastball cutter, curveball pitcher. How is Floyd a better bet?
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Nov 16, 2011 8:57 AM EST up reply actions
I mean, considering half the starts come at Fenway,
all other things being equal, I’d prefer the righty for the Sox. Either way, they’re not so terribly different. If either is acquireable for a reasonable cost, I’d be happy with either. Something tells me that if one or both is made available (they’ll only trade one, really), the demand will be such that the cost won’t be too reasonable.
Wilson's opponents
It’s an eye-opener to me that for two years running Wilson faced the weakest lineups of any pitcher with 100 innings pitched. That has to be given a lot of weight when considering his other stats.
Good article.
Way to dig up the stats to back your claim.
I absolutely agree that the Sox should show no interest in Wilson, not even to drive up the price for the Yanks (that will be done by the Rangers and Angels this go-round). He is not an Ace pitcher outside of the AL West (and probably the NL West). He’s logged heavy innings over the past two years for a guy who didn’t start until two years ago, and the wear and tear on his body has contributed to his woeful Octobers. If he leaves the AL West, whoever signs him will be lucky to get a Lackey+ performance out of him (that’s above-below-average over the course of his contract; Lackey straight being below average, and Lackey- being what Lackey has given the Sox.).
In a sane world, Wilson would be offered nothing more than a 4-year, $40 million deal, max! Being this is an insane world and GMs have incomprehensible amounts of money to throw around, Wilson will end up with a 6-year, $92.5 million deal. Enjoy your 13 wins and 4.45 ERA from your $15+ million pitcher, Yanks.
Cost would be my #1 reason not to sign Wilson
In all honesty I cannot understand how Texas can let him go. Unless they dont want to be in the playoffs. The Angels are stacked with starting pitching and they are trying to add another bat either at 1st or 3rd making them a very formidable opponent for Texas.
Perez
Texas plans to replace Wilson with Perez. They are taking gamble, as Perez is such a good closer.They will have to sign one of the availble closers,such as Cordova,K-Rod, or Nathen, as Adams is not up to it. They also need to re-sign Darrin Oliver. With the money they save from Wilson, they should sign Fielder. They don’t have a real 1st baseman, and Fielder would make that lineup awesome.Hitting into that jetsream in Arlington should make him a 40 plus HR hitter. Plus, all those walks.
Aybar
Hamilton
Young
Fielder/Moreland
Napoli/Torrealba
Beltre
Kinsler
Cruz/Murphy
I think if I were the Rangers
I’d pass on Fielder and make Napoli/Young/Torrealba my catcher/DH/1B triangle
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Nov 17, 2011 4:11 AM EST up reply actions
Kinsler
getting off the subject a bit,but why does a 30 HR guy bat leadoff. He is a great base runner,but his bat would produce more runs further down The same scenario exists with Ellsbury. Now that they know he is a power guy, they have to put him in the middle of the order. Scutato or Crawford could leadoff.
Scutaro
Pedroia
Gonzalez
Youkilis
Ellsbury
Ortiz
Crawford
Reddick/Somebody
Saltimachia/Varitek
The only thing I could think of
Is that they don’t want him behind Gonzalez and Youkilis who my 1-year old could probably outrun. I get your point though…maybe move him down to third so only Pedey (who stole 20+ bases) and CC or Scoot are in front of him?
by The Name is Dalton on Nov 17, 2011 9:15 AM EST up reply actions
I dunno, if Ellsbury continues to produce like he did last year
I’d rather he have as many at bats as possible. I’d probably lend more credence to that idea if it were a team with a weaker lineup, where we didn’t have a pretty good on base guy batting 9th most of the time.
Halos
The Angels become a legit threat if they add Wilson to Weaver,Haren and Santana. Plus, they would be taking him away from Texas, and Anaheim is a pitchers park .One problem, he would have to face Texas several times. How does that Wells trade for Napoli and Rivera look now to Angels fans,or Toronto fans,where Napoli would have been a great guy to hit behind Bautista,and Rivera would have helped, as well.
Hopefully he goes to an NL team....
he kills us.
"Remember, it's not over until the fat lady drops one."
Reyes
I know this won’t happen,but Reyes would be a great fit in Boston, even with Scutaro. With Youks’ health declining, Scut makes a great backup. Or,Youk could be the DH while Scutaro and Lowrie platoon at 3rd. The investment would be huge,but he has a batting championship, several gold gloves, is a great threat on the bases,and is under 30. With Reyes leading off and Pedroia batting second, you could make the best of Ellsbury’s power. With Reyes doing the stealing, Ells could concentrate on power,not that he would no longer be a threat on the bases.One idea would be to bat Ells in front of Ortiz. When Ells is on first, and distracting the pitcher, it would open up a hole for Papi’s groundballs. Of course,it’s a moot point if Papi walks. Reyes range would help the pitching staff tremendously. If they backloaded the contract, they should be able to afford him, with so much money coming off the books.He has had alot of injuries,but that doesn’t mean he will be injured. If you can’t get the right pitchers,you could greatly improve the team with this move. Ideas?
Lineup
If they did sign Reyes, and Papi walks,my lineup would look like this:
Reyes SS
Scutaro/Lowrie 3RD
Pedroia 2B
Gonzalez 1B
Youkilis DH
Ellsbury CF
Crawford
Reddick/Macdonald
Salty/Lavernway
The advantage of this lineup is getting Pedey into the 3rd spot, to take advantage of his power.
If the Sox sign another speed guy to a 100 million plus contract
I’m gonna throw Cherington through a wall.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Nov 17, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions

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