Should The Red Sox Extend Matsuzaka
News came around the other day that Daisuke Matsuzaka had thrown a ball. Normally this wouldn't be noteworthy. You'd just ask by how far it missed the strike zone and move on. But these throws were significant because they were the first Matsuzaka made since undergoing Tommy John surgery last June. The procedure has a recovery time of about a year and a half give or take a few months, so while there is a possibility Matsuzaka could pitch for the Red Sox in 2012, he won't be ready until the end of the season at the earliest.
Hard as it is to believe, it was five seasons ago that Matsuzaka signed a six year deal with the Red Sox following his posting from Seibu Lions of the Japanese league. In other words, if Matsuzaka is unable to pitch for Boston next season, he may will have thrown his final pitch for the Red Sox this past May 16th.
That is, unless the team offers him a contract extension.
I understand that Matsuzaka isn't the most popular player and many fans are counting down the minutes until his contract expires. Even seeing his name listed as that evening's starter is encouragement for some to avoid watching that evening's game in lieu of checking the next morning's papers. His pitching style could fairly be described as I Can't See Because I Put Sporks In My Retinas. Admittedly there are few things in life that drone on more than a Matsuzaka start, what with the seemingly interminable full and three ball counts. They come in bunches like John Boehner's orange face paint or Wilford Brimley's nose hair. Yes, his pitch counts shoot up at a ridiculous rate, and he walks too many people and, sometimes you just want to scream at the TV, "Throw a damn strike already!, and... wait, where was I going with this?
Oh, yeah. The idea of extending that contract may seem like crazy talk, but as difficult as it can be to take in a Matsusaka start, it's important to separate the aesthetically displeasing nature of his starts from the production. As a famous GM once said in a book he wrote about himself according to a guy who never read it, we're not selling jeans here. The way it's done doesn't matter. What matters is that it gets done. As much as we might not want to believe it, he's not actually a bad player.
If you accept the idea that Matsuzaka was injured this past season, and it would be hard to argue that he wasn't what with the whole Tommy John surgery thing, then the pertinent part of his career becomes his first four seasons with Boston. Surprisingly enough looking at the stats for those four seasons isn't nearly as painful an exercise as you might expect. Despite his reputation for not going deep into games, from 2007 through 2010 he averaged six innings a start (OK, fine 5.97) while compiling an ERA ten percent above league average. That isn't worth $21 million a year - his current salary including a pro-rated portion of the posting fee -- but it is worth something. Fan Graphs says Shaun Marcum's 2011 season, in which he compiled an ERA+ of 110 in 200.2 innings of work, was worth $12.1 million.
Because of the timing of his surgery, Matsuzaka's free agency will come at an uncertain time for him. He'll have recovered from surgery, but he won't have had an opportunity to prove it a success on the mound. He could try to find a two or even three year deal, but even if he did locate one, the money won't be anywhere near what he wants. To get the deal he wants (and his agent wants him to have) he'll need to showcase himself. He could do that with another team, but considering his particular situation (language barrier, assimilation) he may feel more comfortable staying in Boston.
Also his agent is Scott Boras, the same agent who steered Adrian Beltre to Boston on a one year deal. Beltre and Matsuzaka are much different players, but their situations are comparable in a few ways. Both players want, or in Beltre's case wanted, long term contracts. Both were or will be free agents at age 31 coming off injury-plagued seasons. Both want to rebuild their value in order to sign likely their final big contract. The fact that the Red Sox are perennial winners on a big stage doesn't hurt either. Like Beltre's one year deal, a one year contract extension for Matsuzaka with the Red Sox would give him that stage and allow him to re-enter the market a year later after rebuilding his value.
There is some risk for the team in making such a deal because of the uncertainty surrounding Matsuzaka's injury and recovery. However that risk could force Matsuzaka to sign for a much smaller figure than he ordinarily would.
Such a deal could work out very well for the Red Sox for a number of reasons. First, the team will likely need one more starter for the 2013 season. Considering the Red Sox recent forays into free agency, ask yourself how comfortable you are with dropping between $50 and $100 million on another long term deal for a free agent starter. The Red Sox already have Josh Becket, John Lackey, Clay Buchholz and Jon Lester under contract for 2013 at $50.33 million.
In fact, they already have over $106 million committed to eight guys in 2013. With so many holes left to fill and not so much money to do it with, the organization may not want to commit to another long term deal. What's more, although there is talent in the pipeline, the minor league system won't offer any answers. Anthony Ranaudo might be ready by sometime in 2013, but given his play this past season that isn't anything to bank on. Top draft pick Matt Barnes won't likely be in Boston before 2014, and any player they draft next season isn't going to be able to step in and throw 200 innings regardless of how major league ready they are.
Finally, recall the Red Sox organization has spent over $100 million in total on Daisuke Matsuzaka. By 2013 they'll have invested six years in him as well. The Red Sox will have an opening in the rotation and Matsuzaka will want to show off his health and ability for a contender. The two sides know each other. A one year deal in the neighborhood of $5 million sounds about right. At that price even if Matsuzaka doesn't reach an above average level and/or doesn't pitch a full season the team could still get their money's worth. But, if he stays healthy and posts even slightly above average numbers, the deal could end up as a steal for both player and team.
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Man
do you EVER stop joking?
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OTM | Silver Seven
A cheaper beltre deal
I’d be all for a Beltre type deal packed with incentives. We all know the sox could have 5 healthy starters and barely make it through the season. I say load up on viable starters. DiceK could get a 2-3 million dollar deal with incentives that could push it to 10. If he meets his incentives he gets paid and is in better line to get a long term contract with the dodgers, mariners or texas.
Yup
As I said below (for some reason I’m responding to comments backwards), I’m not advocating to sign Matsuzaka. The point of this whole thing wasn’t "Hey! Fun! Let’s sign up Dice-K!" It was this guy could give the Red Sox good above average innings if he’s healthy at an inexpensive rate and at virtually no risk to the team. And the Red Sox are better positioned to take advantage of that situation than any other team.
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I honestly think that the Dice-K experiment is over.
It is not good for a testy fan-base to bring him back, and his potential return on investment, I feel, is minimal. He is not an “innings eater”, so he would tax our bullpen, and he’s really not much upside at this point in his career.
If he signs dirt @#$%ing cheap? Oh, sure. But, elsewise…no freakin’ way.
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OTM | Silver Seven
I agree with this.
Not only that, but if he can’t come back by August of next season, it is a gigantic gamble to spend money on. From what I understand, the Free Agent class after next year has several bigger name pitchers, which hopefully means that some of the lower tier free agents will be cheaper. I would rather get someone who is an “innings eater” rather than a guy who will pitch 5 innings and spend 4 hours doing it.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 7, 2011 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Even if he pitches for us in 2013
After that year he’ll be 33 years old. Unless he were to really light it up in that year for Boston, the most he would probably get would be 2-3 years. It could happen, but I wouldn’t bank on it if I were Dice-K. If I am him, and I am going to sign a 1-year deal/extension for 2013 with any team to try and earn a longer term deal, I wouldn’t stay in the AL East at all.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 7, 2011 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Should they extend Dice-BB?
Seriously, is this like a long delayed April Fools joke? What’s next, Should the Sox sign Julio Lugo to play SS next year?
by OzTiger on Oct 6, 2011 7:49 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Um, yeah he compiled a 110 ERA + since 2007.
And an 88 ERA + Since 2009. Factor in the injuries and weird P.R. stuff, and any normal pitcher would be looking at a minor league invite from all but the most desperate teams.
We invested a lot of money in Daisuke, it worked out ok in the first two years, and then the wheels fell off. It’s time to move on.
Sort of worked out the first two years.
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OTM | Silver Seven
I would have thought that I was one who wasn’t filled with hatred of Matsuzaka’s performances … The only thing that makes this a possibility is if there is a new GM in town.
by GJ on Oct 6, 2011 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions
By the way, if your Beltre analogy holds
Wouldn’t Daisuke go to San Diego or Seattle i.e. Pitcher’s parks, the way Beltre went to our hitting friendly park? The AL East is the worst division to build value as a pitcher.
by Sologub on Oct 6, 2011 8:25 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Maybe
But considering his oddities and familiarities with the Sox organization it makes sense for him to stay put before signing a long term deal elsewhere.
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by Matthew Kory on Oct 6, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I think in this case the apohorism I would choose would be
“Familiarity breeds contempt.” While acknowledging I don’t have behind the scenes info, there seems to be a lot of frustration on both ends of the Matsuzaka/Red Sox dynamic. \
The only way I could see Daisuke being re-signed would be if he comes back from Tommy John surgery in June/July, pitches with a sub-3.25 ERA, has great peripherals, and shows he’s completely on board with the Red Sox plan. I don’t see that happening.
I'm OK with a Matsuzaka one year extension
But it would have to be for low money. Of course I do not know what free agents would be available in 2013.
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you mean after the 2012 season?
Here’s some:
Greinke, Marcum, Cain, Jonathan Sanchez, Anibal Sanchez, Guthrie, Hamels. Obviously more than that, those are just a few. Maybe one of the best free agent pitching classes in a while.
Not mutually exclusive
Matsuzaka on a low money deal, $2 million with incentives or something, might not be the worst guy to have as a 6th starter out of the bullpen.
More than likely he’ll want to continue his career with another team or in Japan just because of the way the last few years went.
'Zaka would be a HORRIBLE bullpen pitcher.
You don’t need a guy who nibbles the plate coming out of the pen with guys standing on 1st and 3rd. You need a guy who can put out a fire.
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OTM | Silver Seven
More like long man
I was thinking more of a mopup guy / long man. A new John Halama.
by mikecarlucci on Oct 6, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
sure but I'm not sure he has the kind of ego that would have him signing extremely cheap to be a long man
I’m also not sure I’d pay $2 million for a long man unless they were incredibly useful, a la Aceves.
He’ll want to start somewhere if he stays in the US- money would be on signing with some non-contender in the hopes they might strike gold.
Wow, that is a good year
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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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I would think he'd go back to Japan
Considering his apparent discomfort with being in the US and playing baseball along with his general unpopularity here, wouldn’t he just go home instead? I’d imagine some team there would be thrilled to get him at a discounted rate.
He may go back to Japan, but I’d be surprised if he turned his tail like that. He’s a very proud man and I’d think if he does go back he’d want to do it following a more successful season than sucking and then having season-ending surgery.
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How many "I will choose THIS year to show them how good I really am" seasons does it take
before he decides “I will go back to Japan where I can be the pitching god I know I am”?
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OTM | Silver Seven
Well, so far, there really haven’t been any of those seasons, so I guess I’m not quite sure I follow you.
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It's just that I hear about this "pride"
but it hasn’t delivered results on the mound. I think that his “pride” is much more likely to kick in and say, “Get me out of this stupid country and back to Japan where they treat me with respect.”
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OTM | Silver Seven
so I could laugh and remind myself how glad I am he's not on the Red Sox
I dunno, that sounds like $8 worth of enjoyment to me.
It may not be possible to see two parties further apart in a negotiation.
He hates Boston. He knows the fans hate him, he’s been embarrassed. Sure, he’d come back….for about $20M for one year.
We don’t trust him. Sure, we’d like to give him one more shot to get a bit more out of that posting fee. We could offer about $1M.
I get you don’t like him, but how do you know he hates Boston? How do you know he’d only come back for “about $20 million” for a year?
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by Matthew Kory on Oct 6, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't mind him, I dislike Beckett and Papelbon more.
I don’t like watching him pitch, but I got three kids so I don’t do “slow” well.
I’m just responding to 4 years of thinly veiled frustration. It seems to be pretty apparent on both sides. I’m betting he is itching to get out of Boston, and Boston is ready to pack up his bags for him.
I always thought he could be a nice middle of the order pitcher in the NL.
An NL pitcher...
I can see him doing that possibly and maybe even more successfully than being an AL pitcher. Though it depends on a lot of things…
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right
because as long as he throws strikes to the pitcher, he can do his usual thing and walk the 6-8 batters every time.
:-P
You’re right in that he nibbles and that likely won’t work anywhere, but a lot of NL offenses are just crap and he could hypothetically get away in nibbling if batters give chase.
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haha no I was kidding
but i DO think that there’s some legitimacy to that. I think he’d be much better in the NL
If he’s really itching to get out of Boston then he wouldn’t accept a one year deal from the Red Sox.
The point of this whole thing wasn’t “Hey! Let’s sign up Dice-K!” It was more along the lines of this guy could give the Red Sox good above average innings if he’s healthy at an inexpensive rate and at virtually no risk. And the Red Sox are positioned to take advantage of that situation better than any other team.
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No way
No major league deal for sure.
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
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Yeah...Likely No.
It’s all about how he comes back from Tommy John surgery like Sologub said. Considering how many innings he’s thrown in his career and the fact that it was finally now that he needed said surgery, this could be something that might revive his career.
Though that’s a big maybe…
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no
no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no
So, yes then?
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There appear to be an even number of nos.
I think that wouldmean yes.
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
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by QW on Oct 8, 2011 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Holy shit
This is off topic but I just met and shook hands with Nomar. Just happened to pick the same place for lunch in Chapel Hill as he and Mia today.
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Word?
That’s pretty sweet!
Thought might say pics or it didn’t happen ;)
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
*Though SOME might say...
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
They Have Kids Too...
Twin daughters I think. Imagine how athletically gifted they’ll be once they grow up.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
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With another one the way
I wanted to ask for a picture but I wouldn’t want people stopping me all the time if I was with my pregnant wife, so I held back.
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If the Sox are going to bring back a disappointing, injury-prone pitcher
it should be Erik Bedard. Since when he’s healthy he’s, y’know, good.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
Problem is...
Is he ever healthy?
I like Bedard too but I think his injury problems plus Boston’s recent track record with injured players is a recipe for disaster.
Thanks Tito for 04 and 07.
by Fenway302 on Oct 6, 2011 4:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He's healthy about as often as Dice-K is.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
Congratulations, man.
I look forward to a more positive, hate-filled series of baseball comments from you.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
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OTM | Silver Seven
Knee jerk reaction = No
But after I think about it, I realize- he’s probably better than Lackey. I’m one of Dice-BB’s biggest non-fans. But I think if he was able to come back from TJ surgery sometime in 2012 and have success in games/situations that mean something, I’d extend him one year at low money if possible. If he doesn’t pitch at all in 2012 then it’s IMO too big a risk. So just ask yourself as I did, is he an upgrade over Lackey? Probably.
Thanks Tito for 04 and 07.
by Fenway302 on Oct 6, 2011 4:16 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
That depends.
If Lackey is 2011 Lackey going forward than just about anyone in baseball would be an upgrade including numerous pitchers in AAA. If we temper things a bit and look at Lackey’s career, his track record for success and assume that the needle moves at least a bit back in the other direction than things get more questionable.
Personally, I was hoping Lackey was hurt. Not that I root for anyone to be hurt, but I was hoping that was the explanation for his performance. Since the season has been over for a week and we haven’t heard a peep about how he was pitching through pain, then I’m concerned this might be who he is going forward.
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List of 2013 free agent SPs
Joe Blanton (32)
Matt Cain (28)
Kevin Correia (32)
John Danks (28)
Zack Greinke (28)
Jeremy Guthrie (34)
Cole Hamels (29)
Colby Lewis (33)
Francisco Liriano (29)
Kyle Lohse (34)
Derek Lowe (40)
Shaun Marcum (31)
Daisuke Matsuzaka (32)
Brandon McCarthy (29)
Carl Pavano (37)
Anibal Sanchez (29)
Jonathan Sanchez (30)
Joe Saunders (32)
plus many others with club options
This is my creative way of saying hell no.
Which one of those guys is going to:
1) be cheaper than a one year make-good deal for Matsuzaka?
2) as good as Matsuzaka?
3) not require a multi-year contract?
To be clear, I’m not advocating for this. I’m simply asking the question, would this be a smart move?
Writer at Over The Monster. Follow me on Twitter! It'll be super awesome fun! @mattymatty2000
Yeah, once you remove the players that will either be
a)locked up by then or
b)outside our price range
The list really becomes far less appealing.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Danks won't be locked up.
Guthrie won’t be locked up, Lewis may or may not be. Liriano may or may not be locked up, Anibal Sanchez may or may not be locked up. Cain probably won’t be locked up.
I’d take any and all of those guys over Dice-K.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
How many for cheap 1 year deals?
I think that is the point Matt is trying to drive home.
Guthrie is not really an upgrade to Dice. I’d think the White Sox would make a strong push for Danks, and if they don’t, his price would fall solidly out of the box of what Matt is discussing. I’d think Texas would make a strong push for Lewis if they pass on Wilson this year. Lirano, pass. He could end up far worse than Dice. He’s the anti-Beckett, great in even years, and a Lackey-esque disaster in the odds. I’d imagine Sanchez and Cain will give a lot of thought to staying where they are and if they don’t, they still aren’t what Matt is talking about.
I would love to sign Danks, Sanchez or Cain out of that group if we can afford them. But I honestly have no idea how our finances are going to look at the end of next year. If they aren’t good, Dice is as good an option as any of the other FA listed who would fit the kind of player to get a 1 year, low priced deal. No one likes Dice, but this scenario makes sense considering the options and unknown finance situation.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I mean, I guess the thing is
how plausible is this one-year, dirt-cheap Dice-K deal? Not very. He’s got Boras as an agent. If he’s gonna inflate his value, he’s not gonna do it in the high-offense AL East.
I mean, if we can get Dice-K for bargain basement prices, then fine. But…what if we can get Zach Greinke for bargain basement prices?
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OTM | Silver Seven
How does Boras have any bargaining power in this situation?
Dice is an oft injured pitcher, who won’t have a chance to showcase himself after TJ, is well below the talent level he was billed at and clearly has troubles assimilating to new experiences. I think a Beltre sort of deal is exactly the sort of thing that will be best for him. The sort of Beltre deal Boras himself negotiated.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
So...
Dice is an oft injured pitcher, who won’t have a chance to showcase himself after TJ, is well below the talent level he was billed at and clearly has troubles assimilating to new experiences.
Why do we want to re-sign him again?
The fact is, if he wants to inflate his value, he needs to do it with a new team under a new microscope. The Boston media would be all over Dice-K like stink on a monkey, and that’s not going to increase his value.
The best part of the Beltre deal was a) getting him into a new location where he was being seen by a fresh set of eyes, and b) putting him in a spot where his strong points were likely to shine.
Neither of those things are are Boston for Matsuzaka.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
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OTM | Silver Seven
The assimilation problem of his might be the one to give us a decent enough discount to make it worth it. If he can stay healthy he’d be an upgrade over about 70% of the starters we tossed out there this year.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Emphasis mine:
The assimilation problem of his might be the one to give us a decent enough discount to make it worth it. If he can stay healthy he’d be an upgrade over about 70% of the starters we tossed out there this year.
There is nothing in you statement that makes me, or should make anyone, feel that this is a viable option for us. He’s been here for 5 years. He hasn’t assimilated at all yet. Why should he try one more year to assimilate. I spent two years living in a place that I absolutely hated. I ain’t NEVER moving back there.
Beyond that, your comment doesn’t address the fact that the Sox are not the best team for him to boost his personal value on a short, cheap deal.
Dice is gone. Let’s just let him go.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
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OTM | Silver Seven
Because it would be easier for him to just stay here than start all over elsewhere.
Especially if he is looking for a ‘make good’ sort of deal. If he puts up 180+ innings of 4-ish ERA, as he could easily do, he’d still have quite a market for himself at the end of the 1 year deal and it would save him the pain of starting all over for only a year.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Yeah. You're reaching.
He’d stay in a place where the fan base doesn’t like him because he doesn’t want to pack up his apartment?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
That's why it's called a scenario rather than reality.
This could happen, whether Boston likes him or not. He’s lived here for several years now, he knows the team, the city and the routine. No one is going to give him a big deal unless he can prove some sort of value. He can go to another city to do that, but he would have to learn the new team, city and routine with knowledge that he’s going to have to do it again likely in a year. Or he can stay here, where it might not be friendly, he at least knows the routine, and if he puts up say his 2007 season he would build exactly the sort of case he would need to get that next contract and find something a little more supportive for him.
It comes down to, the enemy you know or the enemy you don’t. There is no guarantee for him that any city would be better for him than Boston.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
But in a situation where you are hypothesizing what might be a good idea for BOTH parties
are you going to argue that your SCENARIO is more likely than mine?
That someone is likely to stay where he is disliked and where he has underperformed so that he doesn’t have to move to another city where he could have the proverbial fresh start.
Where he is less likely to be judged as harshly? For what?
Of course there is no guarantee that any other city would be better for him than Boston. But in the rationale given by Matt to start this off, he compared it to Beltre. Who left Seattle to get a fresh start somewhere to re-prove his worth.
Sure…it’s possible that Dice-K would rather stay here because he has a fear of apartment hunting…but unlikely.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I don't think he's coming back.
But it certainly isn’t out of the realm of possibility. There are things working in our favor. If you want to argue over bullshit then fine, prove to me that Dice-K isn’t so mentally insecure that he actually is afraid of moving to another city? You can’t, and Dice has shown over and over that he isn’t a conventional human being by any means, ‘the book’ on human behavior can be tossed out the window with him. Because of this I can certainly see a scenario playing out where he does remain on a make good deal that won’t cost us much at all. Dice has, is and always will be, a crapshoot in just about every aspect.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Which makes him a good idea? Even possibly?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
For low cost
and when the closest competitors for this sort of deal are Derek Lowe, Kyle Lohse and Jeremy Guthrie, players who are similarly injured or inconsistent. Why not go with the devil you know?
Not like I’m advocating Dice over say Matt Cain or Cole Hamels. If we can sign them, that is exactly who we should go for. But if we can’t and have to resort to signing a player to a short term, low cost deal, Dice isn’t a particularly bad option compared to the alternatives and might actually present the most upside out of them.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
We have an under-performing, injury prone pitcher
who would be a PR nightmare to re-sign. He might be mediocre if we sign him for a meh cost.
It’s time to let Dice-K go.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
He might be mediocre if we sign him for a meh cost.
Would he be better or worse depending on what we paid him?
The other pitchers I mentioned have the same problems, under-performing (or in Lowe’s case, being 40), and injury problems. If Dice presents the best value, do what is best for the team, PR be damned.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Also..."as he could easily do"?
Um, based on what?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Under the assumption of optimal health
His career ERA is 4.25, which is 4-ish. He’s put up over 200IP before, he can do that again.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
He's done it once.
by 4 innings. He hasn’t sniffed it since. He was 13 innings removed from the 180 mark that you said he could “easily” do…and that would be 5 years removed from this scenario.
I don’t think so, Jim.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Or Tim. *reference fail*
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Under the assumption of optimal health
I think you missed that.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Nope.
I saw it.
Are you telling me he was ONLY healthy in year one. Are you saying that you can assume optimal health given his lack of being healthy? I mean, under the assumption of him being a Cy Young winner, I definitely think we should sign him back on a one-year deal.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
60% of his seasons he's been at or relatively close to 180 innings.
How is that not an attainable goal?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Barely over half have been at or "relatively close".
That is not “easily attainable”.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Put more correctly
80% have been less. 40% have been really far off that. Like….REALLY far.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
There are so many ways to say that 3/5 seasons
He’s pitched at least or reasonably close to 180 innings.
Thank you for finding more for me.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
You are taking "devil's advocate" to a new level, my friend.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
And ultimately
For what we would theoretically be paying him, it wouldn’t matter if he gets there or not, I’m just stating the sort of performance he would need if he ever wants to get another decent sized contract by another team after the proposed ‘make good deal’. To have his deal with us to be ‘worth’ the roughly $3-6M deal, he’d need to ‘produce’ roughly 1 WAR, which is about 130 innings of 5-ish ERA.
The team doesn’t care about his next deal, he does. I’m more or less saying, if he believes in himself to get to that 180IP, 4ish ERA plateau, he might very well consider staying. If the team thinks he can be worth at least 1 WAR, and the budget is tight and they need a pitcher, it makes sense.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
The original question was
“Should the Red Sox extend Matsuzaka?”
The answer to that is a ringing, resounding “NO”. Because he will be six years removed from his 200IP season, and 5 years removed from adequacy, trending downwards. If he signs elsewhere and produces, no one in the Red Sox front office and no one in Red Sox Nation will be saying, “Dang. How did we let this one get away.”
Take Oki for example. He produced well for us. Then he didn’t. We signed him back because he was good for us a couple years ago, even though relevent evidence suggested that he was done here. Guess what. He was done here.
Dice K is done here.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
We don't want cheap 1 year deal guys
we need a reliable starter to slot between Buch and Lackey in the rotation. If that means signing a guy for 5/60 like Danks, then I’m all for it.
If Theo fucks up the finances this year I’m going to go ballistic. There is nobody, literally NOBODY that deserves a massive deal that also slots into where we have need on the team. If we want to bring a guy in on a 1 year deal, it should be done this year with a Buerhle or Bedard type pitcher.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
We may only be able to afford cheap 1 year guys.
Depending on what happens this off-season and into the next year. Ellsbury could be extended, Bard could be extended.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
The team may have misfired badly on free agents of late
but I am not ready to give up on that market when it comes to assembling the team. With the Red Sox’ resources they shouldn’t have to. So I am not as concerned with conditions 1 and 3 on your list, which then really opens up the answers to no. 2.
Next year’s offseason will be the first chance in three years to begin to renew the Beckett/Lester/Lackey/Buchholz/Matsuzaka planned rotation which was set in stone when Lackey was signed. Fortunately it just so happens that when the first of those five comes off the books he does so during a landmark year for free agent starters (the last three years have been barren). I do not want to miss the chance.
Dice-K would be nice for cheap depth beyond the starting five, but he would be a disaster in the bullpen and would not sign a minor league contract. You either sign him with intent to put him in the rotation or you do not sign him at all. Please do not sign him, Matt. Don’t do that to us.
It won't be a landmark year
Most of the desirable guys on that list will be locked up before the end of next year. It’ll be like every other year.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I have a feeling
that if Danks/Cain/Sanchez aren’t locked up during this offseason they will all see free agency.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
They may
But they’ll cost a heck of a lot more than Dice K will in years and dollars.
Writer at Over The Monster. Follow me on Twitter! It'll be super awesome fun! @mattymatty2000
"As good as Matsuzaka"
We have no idea how good he will be or healthy. We do know that the way his health. Speculating that he is going to be low money on a one yeard deal does not necessarily mean there is little risk. You risk giving up a roster spot as well as the opportunity cost of signing someone else. There is more to risk than $. His manner of pitching over the last few years does not address at all what I think were the two biggest issues with starting pitching.
1. Not enough innings. We had one of the lowest # of innings from any Starting staff in the league. I have no confidence that he will give more innings than an Erik Bedard at this point.
2. Too many baserunners. One of the reasons there wasn’t enough innings by starters was because they were constantly putting baserunners on, including leadoff runners. That restrains the pitchers from being aggressive. Dice-K isn’t really an aggressive pitcher, being a nibbler and his WHIP is historically bad.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 7, 2011 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions
OK, but
I’ll take a healthy Dice K and all other things being equal my team will beat yours most of the time.
Writer at Over The Monster. Follow me on Twitter! It'll be super awesome fun! @mattymatty2000
The problem is
Dice is never healthy.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
Except, no, that's not right.
Before this year he averaged ~150 innings a season. Has he been the picture of health? No, but he’s thrown some innings over the last five years.
Writer at Over The Monster. Follow me on Twitter! It'll be super awesome fun! @mattymatty2000
Two out of the last three years he's thrown under 60 innings
in 2010 he pitched 25 games and 153.2 inning, just barely making your qualifier of 150 innings. He’s going to miss all of next season as well recovering from this surgery. Dice-K topped 170 innings once, in 2007.
Even if we don’t talk about the fact that he averages 145.2 innings from 2007-2010, his k/9 is going down, his walk rate is sitting around 4/9, and his xFIP has gone up almost every year he’s been here, except for a hiccup from ‘09 to ’10 when it went from 4.75 to 4.54. Should he continue his “healthy” trend in 2013 of 25 starts and 145 innings, he’ll hit roughly 5.2 innings per start, which would be okay if our entire pitching staff wasn’t injury prone. If we had a staff like the Rays, where we played 6 starters all year I might be inclined to agree with you, but I don’t want to put my hopes on Dice-K when I know he’s gonna get hurt, even if he is only making 1 million.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
Saying he is averaging 150 innings is not right either. At all.
I can bring up the more relevent (because he isn’t in his mid-20s anymore) last 3 years where is average 83 innings with an ERA (Not sure on FIP or other Metrics) of over 5? We can add in his innings in 2012 (which could be anywhere from zero to around 100) to bump it up to 87ish. (I was generous and took 100)
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 7, 2011 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions
*very* generous.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
And my point here is
That looking at his averages is misleading and his injuries have been so prevalent recently that it makes it worthless. If it was a Jon Garland whose # of innings (not other stats necessarily) is incredibly consistent and has been relatively injury free, than an average is something with merit to be relied on. Dice hasn’t so it doesn’t. To me.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 7, 2011 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I think
He is an extremely fly ball pitcher .
no command and always not healthy . and complains about catcher.
not good fit for sox .
sorry ,.my bad english
Agreed to a point.
He’s not the greatest pitcher, nor will he be the greatest pitcher available. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying he MIGHT provide the best value per dollar available and he could do that with a minimum of risk to the Red Sox.
Writer at Over The Monster. Follow me on Twitter! It'll be super awesome fun! @mattymatty2000
by Matthew Kory on Oct 6, 2011 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I just can't imagine why he would even consider this.
“Um, yeah, the last 6 years have been pretty much an unmitigated disaster for me. I’ve ruined my legacy in Japan, I’m (literally) a joke in the states, this fanbase loathes me, the AL East has been by far the worst possible fit for my style and the entire Red Sox organization ignores my pleas to let me do this my way. Sure, not only will I give it one more year, I’ll do it dirt cheap.”
I can think of 29 other teams that Daisuke Matsuzaka will want to give a discount to when he becomes a free agent.
Not to mention the Red Sox perspective on this. There will be someone in the FO who says, “You know, Derek Lowe at 40? I know it didn’t end well with DLo, but hey, I’d rather have him than Dice!” In other words, who is a better choice on that list above? Everyone.
by cds7c on Oct 6, 2011 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
What's interesting about this post...
Is that it gives consideration to Matsuzaka’s welfare far more weight than the welfare of the Red Sox.
Most of this has to do with hurt pride I think.
Alot of fans wanted a Japanese pitcher so they drank the koolaid and hype him up to extreme proportions. When it goes bad (as it inevitably does) they keep their heads down until enough time passes.
Now Overthemonster.com is trying to rewrite history and use accounting tricks to pretend that “he’s not actually a bad player.”
It’s the ultimate failing of fanboys to flee into their own little fantasies but that’s their perogative.
It’s quite another thing for them to attempt to drag us in with them.
“Matsuzaka was actually GOOD. Wo are you going to believe? Me? Or your lying eyes?”
That was just dumb as hell.
Alot of fans wanted a Japanese pitcher so they drank the koolaid and hype him up to extreme proportions.
Wuh? The guy was a legendary pitcher in Japan. You think Red Sox fans were sitting around saying, "You know what I want? An Asian. He was universally believed to be a phenomenal pitcher.
When it goes bad (as it inevitably does) they keep their heads down until enough time passes.
Is this as racist as it sounds? Maybe I’m just reading this wrong. But I’m reading this “The Japanese are simply inferior to us and have no chance of competing here.” Maybe you can clarify that “inevitable” comment for me.
I don’t know where you come from, Richard. And I don’t care. I just hope there’s an express bus that takes you back there.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
You can play the race card all you want OTM
But the bottom line is that the race card is not a defense against Matsuzaka’s inadequacy.
People who use race as an argumentative advantage are real racists. People who claim that their race bequeaths them special priviledges or physical prowess, are real racists. People who exclude players from rosters based on their race – those people are real racists.
For example: Japanese baseball (the NPB) forbids non-Japanese players from taking up more than 4 roster spots on a team. The idea is to ensure that Japanese players will always dominate the league and to ensure the primacy of Japanese stars.
Morever, the Japanese strike zone is not “big” per se as media claim to other Americans. The fact is: It’s “interpreted” generously because their is a specific strike zone for non-Japanese pitchers (and batters) and a far bigger zone for Japanese players.
And we haven’t even gotten into contracts, how Japanese treat even historically great foreign players or the clubhouse culture for “sukettos” in the NPB.
The point is that Dice-K’s stats were predictably inflated in a league that was designed to ensure his success. With those in-house rules, he couldn’t miss.
Imagine if MLB forbade more than 2 Japanese players on a roster or restricted the number of non-white players on baseball teams.
Pulling the race card – try as you might – doesn’t do anything for you OTM.
And try as you might, it certainly won’t distract honest people from recognizing who the real racists are.
Dice-K was never very good.
His stats in Japan were the result of a rigged system meant to promote Japanese players – often at the expense of non-Japanese players.
Japanese baseball has always required a “protected market” because if the NPB had too many non-Japanese players, racists who only wanted to cheer for Japanese players would lose interest and the league would decline economically.
It’s a pragmatic explanation for a racist league.
Calling me a racist for telling the truth isn’t going to make your defense of Matsuzaka look any better OTM.
Especially since Dice-K’s entire fanbase fixates on his race rather than his performance. So who’s the real racist?
Um.
So who’s the real racist?
You.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Please Dear God NO!
Dear God, please don’t let this guy ever back in a Bosox uni. I’ll give up drinking. I’ll give up smoking. I’ll give up chasing wild women. Hell, God, I’ll even read a book on sabremetrics. But please let this awful excuse for a pitcher go to some other team and let him fail there. I hear the Mariners like Japanese players and let them run all over their coaches. Please God?
by papoonforpresident on Oct 6, 2011 10:33 PM EDT reply actions
Matsuzaka will probably not be in Red Sox uniform
But that won’t stop people like OTM from trying to save face.
“After all, the Red Sox might want him back but who knows if Dice-K will take back the Red Sox since they’ve been so mean to him”.
The tone and condescension of cds7c and OTM beggars belief.
It’s not even worth respecting given how disgraceful they are to people like Terry Francona.
Remember: the Red Sox staff bent over backwards to accommodate this prima dona, letting Dice-K thumb his nose at one of baseball’s most respected pitching coaches (now manager of the Blue Jays) and THE most successful manager in Red Sox history, Terry Francona.
And these people are falling over themselves making wild excuses for Dice-K – as if Red Sox fans aren’t tired of hearing enough excuses from Dice-K himself.
This is a disgrace.
Whatever.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Who is this OTM you speak of?
OTM is the website.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 11, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
...resistance is futile...
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Save that money
Take on Liriano as a project. And then sign Cole Hamels. Or Greinke.
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
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