John Lackey Will Undergo Tommy John Surgery, Miss 2012 Season
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 25, 2011 5:01 PM EDT
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PrintBen Cherington has made his first announcement as the general manager of the Boston Red Sox: John Lackey will need Tommy John surgery during the offseason, resulting in his absence for the entirety of the 2012 season.
The good news is...well, actually, I don't think I need to say much there. Most in Red Sox Nation wouldn't mind being without Lackey for a year. The difference here is that now Ben Cherington will be forced to find a suitable replacement for Lackey instead of simply a back-up -- and we're not talking about someone who can match his historically bad numbers this season.
The other good news is that at least there's an excuse--and one that allows the Red Sox a virtually free year of Lackey at the end of his contract thanks to an injury provision built in by the team. While any of the 2011 Lackey is a net negative, if some of this can be explained away then at least there's a little hope that 2013 Lackey can be, if not good, then average. It's not something to depend on--the Sox had better make sure they don't have Lackey penciled in as anything more than a sixth starter, realistically--but the money is already spent so at least we'e not entirely resigned to spending that money on a 6+ ERA.
As it stands, the Sox' rotation for 2012 is three-men deep: Josh Beckett, Jon Lester, and Clay Buchholz. There's a chance that Erik Bedard could come back on the cheap, but there's not really a reasonable answer in the minor leagues yet (Weiland, Doubront, and Wilson will hopefully all have to prove themselves effective before Cherington will be willing to pencil them into the rotation given the causes for the collapse this year). That means the Sox will have to look elsewhere for at least one, if not two legitimate rotation arms.
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Two, at least three legit arms
the way I look at it. I’d love to have Bedard on the team, but you’d have to be crazy to trust him for the length of the season.
I think we all know what this means:
Wakefield will get his shot at 192.
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"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Can't Be Worse Than Lackey
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Wakefield performed better than he has lately when he was penciled in as a regular 5th starter. At least, that is my assumption based on my quick glance of the stats.
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Can't be worse.
But really isn’t significantly better. I would have preferred Lackey next year over Wake, I can’t see Lackey being as bad as he was in consecutive seasons, I can see Wake being that bad or worse again, comes with his age.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Age Can Work Against Him
However, he is a knuckleball pitcher and in a weird way, they age like wine (though not always like good wine). I mean when did Phil Niekro retire, age 49?
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
This is giving me extremely mixed feelings.
On one hand I hate everything Lackey did last year, including making me look really stupid for going “Don’t worry guys, he’ll pick it back up” over and over and over. On the other hand, while that top three is a solid top three to a rotation, the free agent market for starters is one that I would describe as “Eh”, and that’s being generous. Given that we’ll be operating under a bit of a budget constraint anyhow, I’m not excited at having to get two starters. It wouldn’t shock me if Wake was back, as Bloggy implies but that one also gives me mixed feelings, I love what Wake means to the club and if I could imagine that he wasn’t actually bad I could be excited, because he’s a class act and I’d love to see him get 192, but the thought of wake pitching isn’t one that gets me going.
Likewise.
I don’t know whether to cheer that he’s gone or bemoan the lack of rotation depth.
by Anthony Emerson on Oct 25, 2011 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I've read in other places this will lead to AAV savings with the luxury tax
once the option for league minimum is picked up.
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I could see one of those
“Where did that come from?” type of trades, happening with this news. The Sox have some valuable pieces that could be moved and with the fact they have two starting spots in the rotation, I think that one will definitely be filled via trade. The other will be filled by the combination of low risk, high reward guys, Duobront, possibly Aceves.
The question is,
would Cherington want to deal away the remaining minor league pieces and not have any good young players coming up for the next few years, or hold on to them and try to build from the inside?
by Anthony Emerson on Oct 25, 2011 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the guys
that are close to the majors, the usual suspects, are expendable depending on how FA turns out and what compensation the Sox get from the Cubs. If either gives us flexibility at positions, then a trade could happen.
by aubatron2011 on Oct 25, 2011 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder how Lackey'll handle next year
Suddenly without a wife, suddenly out of the game and not able to pour his idle self into competition; rehab can be pretty unrewarding. And will he be with the team? It would probably be in his interest, but what will that do to the clubhouse? It would be nice as a fan to forget he exists for a year, but that might not be entirely possible.
Thank god.
If that is what it takes to not have him pitch for us next year, I’ll take it. I hope it doesn’t affect him after baseball, but I never want to see him pitch for us again.
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by totheights on Oct 25, 2011 5:47 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I swear to God I just read that headline and laughed out loud in a library.
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“one that allows the Red Sox a virtually free year of Lackey at the end of his contract thanks to an injury provision built in by the team”
It’s my understanding the injury provision only kicks in if the injury is related to a previous injury he suffered with the Angels. Has that connection been made already?
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It’s also my understanding that I broke the record for using the word “injury” in a sentence.
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by Matthew Kory on Oct 25, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Three times isn't that many.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 26, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe.
Not sure though. I’ve heard that the injury provision won’t kick in as this isn’t shoulder related. Here’s what his contract info is from Cot’s:
5 years/$82.5M (2010-14), plus conditional 2015 option
Signed by Boston as a free agent 12/16/09
$3.5M signing bonus
10: $18M, 11: $15.25M, 12: $15.25M, 13: $15.25M, 14: $15.25M
2015 club option at Major League minimum salary if Lackey misses significant time with surgery for pre-existing elbow injury in 2010-14
$0.5M assignment bonus if traded
Award bonuses: $0.5M for MVP ($0.1M for 2nd-5th in vote); $0.1M for WS MVP; $75,000 for LCS MVP; $50,000 each for All Star, Gold Glove
Though I don’t think his missing time now helps the team financially now. I mean why would the team re-sign him in 2015? I don’t see any reason.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
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Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
It effective reduces his AAV for the luxury tax limit, right?
I think someone pointed that out in the prior thread
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by nuthinboutnuthin on Oct 25, 2011 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
my understanding is that it will reduce his AAV
but if and only if they pick up his option before the season starts. I don’t see any reason they wouldn’t do that.
uh? Tommy John surgery _is_ in the elbow (it is UCL replacement surgery).
2015 club option at Major League minimum salary if Lackey misses significant time with surgery for pre-existing elbow injury in 2010-14
This all looks like it lines up. Why are you mentioning “isn’t shoulder related”? What has the shoulder to do with anything here?
Am i missing something?
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Explaination
What I’ve heard was something about the shoulder…wasn’t sure if that was the injury he sustained with the Angels or if it was an elbow issue with the Angels.
If I’m still not making sense, don’t mind me…I’m medicated on Mucinex. :-)
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
I think what he was saying
Was that the info you posted from Cots mentions specifically the elbow, and this was an elbow injury and Lackey has said he knew there was damage in his elbow. It seemed like that you got the impression from Cots that it was a shoulder injury, but it doesn’t mention shoulder at all.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 26, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll blame the Mucinex!
That shit is dangerous …
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Maybe it was just me
But did anyone get a “Yu Darvish” type vibe whenever Benny would comment on having more of an “International Feel” to the team? I know that he could’ve meant it more like spending big on amateur international talent, but it seemed like he was referring to the big league team too.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 25, 2011 6:09 PM EDT reply actions
After Dice-K, I'm Concerned
That for all of Yu’s skill and pitching stuff, he turns into Dice-K here in the MLB.
Of course I could be very very wrong…
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
And +1 for the Use of "Benny"
I think I’m going to keep using that for sure now…good to know somebody else does it besides myself, LOL.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
I will personally kick Ben's ass if he even thinks about signing Darvish.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Think About the $$$
No friggin’ way anybody signs off on that deal.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Why? He is absolutely nothing like Diasuke besides that he pitches in the NPB
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Which is more than enough to forever condemn him in some eyes
I think teams have gained a lot of knowledge about how Japanese players translate to the Majors over the past decade or two.
I know people who have watched both him and Dice-K pitch say Darvish is much better suited to being successful in MLB, but good luck convincing people that.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 25, 2011 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions
My point is that Daisuke is absolutely nothing like the Daisuke we thought we were getting.
I would be happy for Benny to sign Darvish to his SECOND major league deal, but I don’t want us to be the test bed for another high priced question mark. It’s a much, much bigger risk than signing an established MLB player who has years of success in this league.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Pretty sure he's referring to guys like Hanley, Iglesias, Bogaerts, etc.
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USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 25, 2011 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
His background in Latin America would suggest that
But I’m not sure that’s entirely what he meant.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 25, 2011 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions
he also said
that the team has been very involved in free agency the last two years and probably won’t be as heavily involved this year.
If this team goes after Darvish, we deserve to finish in 3rd place again
have they learned nothing
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Does it count as Free Agency
If he’s posted?
I mean, half of the total payment doesn’t even go to him or his contract.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 25, 2011 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
While I appreciate his gutting out the injury, he obviously wasn't doing us any favors.
I wonder why this wasn’t done much earlier? Surely they knew, probably way back when Gammo had that unusual report about Lackey possibly needing Tommy John.
Sign Oswalt and Bedard
Our rotation for next year can be Beckett, Lester, Buch, Oswalt, Bedard.
I think honestly that’s the best we can really hope for. Bedard as our number 5 sounds pretty damn good to me.
The Red Sox suck, and I am the dirt that was sucked in, I am a dirty.
I'm narcissistic, nihilistic, and arrogant. That's me in a nutshell.
Oswalt as 4 sounds brilliant, too.
Good thing we saved the 8M from Theo’s deal!
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
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by QW on Oct 25, 2011 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we need at least one more guy
in the minors ready to jump up there. Beckett and Bedard in the same rotation doesn’t fill me with confidence in an even numbered year.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 26, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn you, fried chicken!
DAMN YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Tampa Bay Rays Championships: Still Zero
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Oct 25, 2011 7:07 PM EDT reply actions
OMFG
Yes! and no, because now we need another pitcher not named Weiland or Wakefield.
"Remember, it's not over until the fat lady drops one."
Do I get to sit on his lap?!
Not lackey but santa…
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Pedroya Lova
by Dustin's #1 Fan on Oct 25, 2011 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
You sure?
I bet if you sit on his lap, Lackey would give you a present…
Monster carcass in Fens this morning, bat splinters on burst stuffing. This team is afraid of me. I have seen its true face. The players are inveterate quitters and the pitchers are full of fail, and when the playoffs are within reach, they will all choke. The accumulated filth of all their beer and clubhouse rivalries will foam up about their waists, and all the fat Texans and horrid relievers will look up and shout, "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper, "NO."
I'll take them kindly if it means we divorce him from this team.
The Red Sox suck, and I am the dirt that was sucked in, I am a dirty.
I'm narcissistic, nihilistic, and arrogant. That's me in a nutshell.
by outofleftfield on Oct 26, 2011 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Can see it now
John Lackey [thinking to himself]: “Well I’ve had a terrible year, my wife got cancer and I left her, and everyone in Boston hates me. But hey, at least I got my health…”
Ben Cherington: “Hey John, what’s happening? I wanted to let you know that you’re getting Tommy John surgery, and that you won’t pitch next year.”
Lackey: “… What?! But I’m fine, Ben, really! I just had some bad luck this year – that’s ALL.”
Cherington: “Well, that’s too bad, because our doctor’s considered medical opinion is that you need surgery ASAP, and unfortunately you signed away your right to decline surgery when you signed that big contract with us…”
Lackey: “(%@!! Fine, let’s get this %#@* over with…”
[Several hours later Lackey wakes up on the operating table]
Theo Epstein, M.D.: “He’s coming out… okay. Clean up that blood will you, I can’t work in these conditions… Hey John, what’s happening? Look, I’m sorry, John, but there were some complications with your routine Tommy John surgery, some rampant infections, and I’m afraid we had to amputate. But look – don’t you worry, John, you’ll still have one limb to hop around on!”
Monster carcass in Fens this morning, bat splinters on burst stuffing. This team is afraid of me. I have seen its true face. The players are inveterate quitters and the pitchers are full of fail, and when the playoffs are within reach, they will all choke. The accumulated filth of all their beer and clubhouse rivalries will foam up about their waists, and all the fat Texans and horrid relievers will look up and shout, "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper, "NO."
by 0157H7 on Oct 25, 2011 8:53 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Oh Man....
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Wow...
Looking at the free agent list, and trying to be realistic…
Not a lot of good options to take a shot at for less than a massive contract.
We should do what the Yankees did last year
… and sign a few cheap gambles (like what they did with Colon and Garcia). I can’t believe what they were able to get out of both of those guys for a pretty long stretch.
With our luck
we’d get Penny and Smoltz again.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 26, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Cheap gambles?
Interesting how most Sox fans were condemning that very thing before signing sLackey. After the growing list of failures included Smoltz, Colon, and a few more. Now we are back there. I love how the pendulum swings.
Oswalt is not off the trash heap, just not worth the expensive option year at this point. He is hurt often though.
You could get a guy like Jackson who will eat innings as a 4-5th starter and not put you back $10-15 million a season.
Too bad Doubront didn’t get the “stay in shape” memo last winter. The injuries to Doubront, Kalish and Linares devastated the depth we really needed.
simul justus et peccator
I wouldn't even say Oswalt is hurt often
he is aging, but pitches a lot of innings. This year, he missed a decent amount of time because he had a back injury exacerbated by cleaning up hurricane wreckage. Before 2011, he had 7 straight years of 30+ starts and only pitches less than 200 innings once in that time. Certainly not a no-risk guy, but often hurt doesn’t seem applicable either.
How is Oswalt "hurt often"
He missed some time this year due to his back and still pitched 130 innings. Before that he had 7 out of 8 seasons over 200+ innings, with 180 the other year. He is getting older, but he won’t get the $15 million option year because the Phillies are not going to pick it up. He probably gets closer to 2-3 years at approx. 9-10 million a year, which is probably worth it given the price of starting pitching. There is risk with his back, but to say he is hurt often is not true. He has been a workhorse and an ace.
But, Roy has better stuff, better command, better consistency, more experience, better clubhouse guy, etc. Jackson while pitching a good amount of innings still has had to battle consistency issues, which is why he has played for six teams. That and Boras will probably push for a 4 year deal and he made 8.75 million this year so he’ll probably push for around 8-10 per year again.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 26, 2011 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Colon did well for us until he tried to hit one out of the park.
Penny did well after leaving, but Smoltz not so much. There is still hope for Miller. We already tried the MFY experiment and for some reason it worked for them.
I wouldn’t mind taking a chance on Harden, Wang or a couple others but really like the Oswalt, Bedard idea, while knowing that Tazawa, Doubront, Wilson and
whoever else are getting reps in just in case. But I’ll be surprised if either Acevas or Bard aren’t in the rotation.
Maybe both as there are few SPs out there now but alot of RPs. If bard and Acevas are the answer to the rotation, so be it, as there are so many who can cover them,’though perhaps to a lesser degree.
If Bard is in the rotation
I will personally lead the angry mob into fenway park with pitchforks ablaze.
Wow. Flaming pitchforks.
That’s an angry angry mob.
Tampa Bay Rays Championships: Still Zero
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Oct 26, 2011 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions
We'll be right behind you with the buckets of tar and the baskets of feathers!
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
I'll be right behind that with my box 'o' stoning rocks.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 26, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Will We Be
Throwing crates of tea at Fenway?
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Aceves in the rotation I can deal with
If Bard is in there, you can call the 2012 season over now… and not in the good way.
He isn’t a starter, he’s a reliever. Without him not only does the rotation get worse, but the bullpen becomes just the Papelbon show.
We need Bard to Papelbon. We have a few other tools we can use, but Bard is the only other seemingly sure thing.
The Red Sox suck, and I am the dirt that was sucked in, I am a dirty.
I'm narcissistic, nihilistic, and arrogant. That's me in a nutshell.
by outofleftfield on Oct 26, 2011 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions
No guarantee Papelbon is here next year.
by baseball maineiac on Oct 26, 2011 6:10 AM EDT up reply actions
which only further supports his point
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Transitioning Bard to a starter
now makes no sense. First he hasn’t started in about 4 years. He’s averaged about 70 innings over the last few years, asking him to make the jump to over a starters innings would be bad for two reasons, he’ll wear down and the innings won’t be quality innings and there’s a serious chance he’d hurt himself. If he had been used like Phil Hughes, where he had been a starter, but just transitioned to the bullpen out of need, then Bard to the rotation could work. The other main reason Bard won’t be a starter is because the bullpen would be so much worse without him there.
by aubatron2011 on Oct 26, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Hello everyone. I heard Lackey’s out for 2012. Would you perhaps be interested in Derek Lowe? And perhaps a prospect included for a shortstop, maybe Marco Scutaro?
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2011 9:50 PM EDT reply actions
"Here in the National League where we play REAL baseball, DH means double-header." -Me.
Dawg Sports -Georgia Bulldogs. When life gives you Gators, make Gatorade.
How about Minor for Youkilis
you guys gotta replace Chipper somehow, right?
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 26, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s coming back for next year. I don’t know what Youkilis might want after next year, but we’re looking for a shortstop.
My dad taught me how to make meat for sloppy joes and my mom let me turn over hot dogs on the grill.
by ChopMaster on Jun 25, 2011 7:25 PM CDT
by justincredubil02 on Jun 28, 2011 9:50 PM EDT reply actions
"Here in the National League where we play REAL baseball, DH means double-header." -Me.
Dawg Sports -Georgia Bulldogs. When life gives you Gators, make Gatorade.
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