Ben Cherington To Be The Next Red Sox GM, Says Yahoo!
Tim Brown of Yahoo! Sports says that, according to sources, the man we all assumed would be Theo Epstein's successor, is, in fact, said successor.
8 months ago
Marc Normandin
132 comments
0 recs |
Email
PrintComments
We need some stability right now.
So I think its the right move. It would be the wrong move though, to stay in-house for the managerial decision. We need a fresh face…. or tito.
Brady > Mallett > Hoyer > Sanchez
- beantownboy171
It will be interesting to see how his analytical, methodical, thorough...
personality (as Speir described) comes through.
Less Draft Signing Day Midnight Madness would probably be first.
I think the midnight madness...
… has more to do with MLB than Theo
Tampa Bay Rays Championships: Still Zero
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Oct 13, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
^ had (obviously)
Tampa Bay Rays Championships: Still Zero
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Oct 13, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup
I hope they move up the Signing Deadline in the next CBA, but Selig’s desire to control bonuses leads to the madness. Almost all teams go through it.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 13, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Quite
I expect most of the deals were done well before draft signing day, and submitted at the last minute as a matter of courtesy and course.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 13, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
That's what I thought before.
But after reading Alex Speier’s article about this years signing deadline madness, negotiations with Swihart, Betts, Owens, Barnes, and possibly a few others didn’t start until 10 minutes before deadline.
I assume the same thing happened with Ranaudo last year.
by OzTiger on Oct 13, 2011 6:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
His only decision
was to trade the best prospect we’ve had since the 80s?
And since the entire baseball ops department is at fault for the collapse, putting another Sox baseball ops guy in charge is idiotic.
As I've been reminded today by multiple people
Bill Lajoie was the one who gets credit for that trade, not Hoyer or Cherington.
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Oct 13, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
"fend off disaster"
It brought us a world series. You can argue Hanley would have brought us more. But you really can’t classify the trade as a disaster, in my opinion.
Brady > Mallett > Hoyer > Sanchez
- beantownboy171
Nice of you to drop by
Mr. Steinbrenner
"We're not going to give up," It doesn't happen, so who cares? There's always next year. It's not like it's the end of the world."-Manny Ramirez
blah blah blah
more negativity.
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
by BigBenSportsGuy on Oct 13, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Look, it's a cute kitten deep in thought! Happy thoughts!
Twitter: @Marc_Normandin
by Marc Normandin on Oct 13, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd cus i like kittens
"I don't put any foreign substances on the baseball. Everything I use is from the good old U.S.A."
JVSM
Pedroya Lova
by Dustin's #1 Fan on Oct 13, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank god...
… the animation cycle cuts out before the kitty starts ranting about Theo/Tito/Beckett/Hanley/etc…
Tampa Bay Rays Championships: Still Zero
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Oct 14, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
You do realize
how much of an ass that comment makes you look like. Especially to those who rooted for the Sox for decades without winning a single WS.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
by Lloyd Christmas on Oct 13, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Saying we won it all
Does not justify bad decisions. And yet that’s the only thing anyone argues.
We also lost in 2008, when we very easily could have, and should have, won.
by Sean O on Oct 13, 2011 6:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You can call it a "bad decision" all you like.
The fact of the matter is it brought the Sox a WS trophy. You can hypothesize all you like about how they would have won it all with Hanley. However, you and I both know this can never be proven. The Red Sox have had many star players over the decades, without championships. I’ll take the 2007 trophy over having Hanley on the roster every day of the week. Most fans would agree with this logic.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
by Lloyd Christmas on Oct 13, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Bad decision is arguable
Bad argument is not.
by Sean O on Oct 13, 2011 6:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hanley has a terrible attitude and bad history of injuries
Looks like it was a good decision
by Florida Johnny on Oct 14, 2011 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, sure - but I'll bet he likes fried chicken
which is now considered a serious CHARACTER FLAW!!!!!!!!
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
That's racist
God, been too long since I’ve said that.
by Sean O on Oct 14, 2011 1:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Or maybe being the real GM will give him more authority than being a fake interim co-GM while Lucchino pulls the strings?
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 13, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, how great Florida has been and how terrible we've been since the trade
Woe is me how could he ever have not fended off this obvious disaster from ever occurring. Damn it Ben Cherington! Maybe he should be blamed since we haven’t won a world series since his brief stint as co-GM… oh shit, right. We did. I think “disaster” is grossly, grossly overstating what occurred in that trade.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
In no measurable way has that trade ever been a disaster for anyone actually involved.
Is my point. It may be personally for you. But for all parties it worked out well. We may not win in 2007 without Beckett, we may win in 08 with Hanley. Unless you have some gift, there is no way to know. SS has been A problem, but it has never been THE problem with this team.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Organizationally,
I would say there is no bigger problem we have faced since Theo took over. It is the only position where we have never had a real solution, even for a season.
As for the deal and over paying and necessity, it’s all been rehashed too many times.
by Sean O on Oct 13, 2011 7:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Sure, we've never had a long term solution there.
But I can’t nail SS play as the reason any of our seasons have sunk. SS production additively over several years sure, but in any single year it’s never been the real problem.
Go year to year when you get a chance, never in any of those seasons since the trade as SS been the thing to undo is. It could have been one of the things but looking myself I routinely see other positions been as bad, or worse in terms of production as well as a routine lack of pitching depth which I think has actually been the biggest compounding problem from year to year.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
as for an overpay and need.
Hard to say, reports were mellowing on Hanley around the time of the trade, there were questions on his ethic that exist still and he had an underwhelming performance the season that led into the trade. Beckett was coming off three straight professional seasons under 4.00 ERA ball and was only 25. That was a pretty decent deal, even including Sanchez.
Tim Wakefield was our leading pitcher in 2005, every starter had an ERA over 4 and under 5. Our pitching staff was the perfect image of mediocrity. There was certainly a need there.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
If it was first base we were talking about
And Theo just could never get a good first basemen, then yeah, I’d give you a point. However, it’s not exactly like there is an ocean of excellent shortstops out there.
Since 2006, there have only been 4 qualified shortstops with a wOBA of .350 or better.
Looks like a lot of GMs are having a not-so-easy time finding cornerstone—or even “very good”—shortstops.
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Oct 13, 2011 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Then why trade away a top prospect ss
When you have no other options?
by Sean O on Oct 14, 2011 12:17 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Because, while being a good-looking prospect...
…Hanley had failed to put up a cumulative .800 OPS above A- ball, including a .720 mark in a full season of AA ball in 2005, his second stint there. He was FAR from a sure thing and his stock had actually tumbled a bit after that 2005 season.
Trade an asset while he still is one for a young, ace-potential starter. Solid logic in my opinion.
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Oct 14, 2011 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Because Starting Pitching was a bigger need
A much, much, much bigger need.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 14, 2011 8:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Because teams can get by without a good SS
They cannot however, without good pitching.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
How many good ss are there?
How many good pitchers are there?
Leaving literally no solution for short was idiocy.
by Sean O on Oct 14, 2011 10:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Very few good SS
However, there are dozens of average ones and that was our solution. This has never been a team that NEEDED extra production from SS to make up for a lack of it elsewhere. If we had a low power 1B or DH then yeah, we would need more production out of SS. However that has never been the case for us. Pitching is still far more important in the scheme of things than a SS who can hit very well.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Then why did we give up Arroyo?
He is a pitcher, no? Not the best in the world, but young, cheap, and decent.
by Sean O on Oct 14, 2011 11:31 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
because he was too tradeable?
He took that low-ball homer contract and immediately became too easy to trade.
It was like a piece of delicious candy sitting there, with a sign saying, “Go on, eat it! Free!”
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
So you're just trolling at this point.
Got it.
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Oct 14, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
par for the course
when it comes to sean. he hates his team and everything about them, yet loves them to his core.
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
by BigBenSportsGuy on Oct 14, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Dear, you're the only thing I hate around here
by Sean O on Oct 14, 2011 1:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
so all this griping is just
strong dislike?
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
by BigBenSportsGuy on Oct 14, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
So you can't argue with my point, got it
Trade top ss prospect because we need pitching, trade current ss for an of leaving no , trade pitching for backup of. This was the 2005 2006 offseason.
by Sean O on Oct 14, 2011 2:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Actually, I did argue against your point.
Refer to my post where I talk about Hanley’s lackluster offensive performance above short-season ball.
Add on top of those average numbers the fact that Hanley was/is oversized for SS, was a terrible defender in the minors (never got much above “poor” in the majors), and had/has an attitude problem…yeah, no wonder they traded him while he was still a valued prospect. There was still a question as to whether he would stay at short or move to a corner outfield position; playing LF or RF would have SEVERELY diminished the one thing he had going for him.
You’re looking at this with hindsight: he obviously turned into a great player. However, you can’t evaluate the dicision making process with hindsight; you need to do that with the information available at the time. And at the time, there was a question as to whether he would be anything more than a solid offensive corner outfielder. The Sox got a cost-controlled, ace-upside pitcher with excellent postseason experience for him. Where is the problem?
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Oct 14, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
and that was a dumb trade
Arroyo would have solved a lot of problems. Frankly it came down to Theo thinking he was going to sign his next Ortiz in Wily Mo Pena, who could, by technicality play RF when Nixon was gone, a position that generally requires a decent bat. Turns out he wasn’t and couldn’t.
Interestingly enough though, he became Vitek and Ranuado via Billy Wagner via Chris Carter.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
What I'm arguing now
And have been in this subthread is that we had no plan after 2005, and everything was haphazard. Whether that is due to the gorilla suit or not, who knows. But if pitching was the thing, trading pitching is daft. Especially given the transition Beckett was due to have.
by Sean O on Oct 14, 2011 1:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ultimately
With the talent in MLB, you don’t need a plan at SS. I would trade the hot SS prospect for the young pitching every time. I would not however, ever trade away established pitching, I think letting Arroyo go was amongst Theo’s greatest errors. He was remarkably healthy and good for 200 innings every year, maybe not remarkably good innings, but he could have provided a ton of value.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
You don't need a plan? Seriously?
Wild, reactive moves are fine? I… Disagree strongly. That’s their entire job, planning.
by Sean O on Oct 14, 2011 3:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
"at SS."
Stick to what Rogue said. He didn’t say you don’t need “a plan”. He said you don’t need “a plan at SS”.
And he’s right. As much as I love the luxury of a stud SS who can actually hit -because they ARE rare – it is a luxury. Not something you have a long term plan for.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
As I said below,
This team should have a plan for everything, let alone the rightmost position on the spectrum. They should have their shit locked down. Considering that resourceless non profits do this, the red sox should keep up.
by Sean O on Oct 14, 2011 5:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You plan for pitching
You need a plan at offensively productive positions like 1B, 3B, LF, RF and DH.
At a position like SS where league average players are a dime a dozen, you don’t need to plan for that. When Lugo fails, there is a Jed Lowrie, or Nick Green or Alex Gonzalez always available to fill the spot. As mmmmm says, a good short stop is a luxury, a good first baseman is a necessity .
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
This isn't necessarily true
you can get by with a league average 1B if you have an elite SS, and vice versa.
Basically, you should plan to have superstars somewhere, but you don’t need them everywhere.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 14, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a true statement
but that’s independent of the positional scarcity issue
SS that can hit, say, X better than replacement are much much rarer than 1B that can hit X better than replacement, where ‘X’ == an absolute number in runs created.
It will cost more to find those X runs at the SS position than it will 1B. Because those X runs are more readily available at the 1B position you have less excuse for not first securing it there rather than chasing ghosts trying to find the next Alex Rodriguez, circa 1996 (when he was still sorta likable).
Another way to look at it is that instead of spending a premium trying to get X runs out of the SS position, spend the same amount at 1B and get X+Y runs.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
Precisely this.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
There is no position at which we should not have a dozen contingency plans
There isn’t that much to do in a baseball front office with their resources, especially when it comes to having a framework. Having a plan for everything is not out of the question. It should be like the cold war pentagon.
by Sean O on Oct 14, 2011 5:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That's the "nice" thing about SS
There always are a dozen contingencies available. It’s not that there is no plan, it’s that the plan isn’t particularly complex. This guy sucked so we slot in player b who we acquired for nearly nothing. When you’re building your franchise you don’t need to map out how SS is going to look through the next few roster overturns. Whenever you need one, one will be available.
So ‘no plan’ is technically incorrect, I was implying that you don’t need Cold War type scenarios to acquire a SS who can do a good enough job. You do need them at other positions.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
But you don't need them at other positions
you need them, period. It’s not a position by position plan, it’s a player by player plan. I have holes at SS and 1B, player X is a SS who can provide N runs above replacement. Player Y is at 1B and also has N runs above replacement. It doesn’t matter which guy you pick up in a vacuum, they both provide N runs.
Granted, the SS is probably more expensive than the 1B, but thats down to scarcity.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 15, 2011 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Your last sentence includes the point
that Rogue and I are making.
Scarcity by position IS the issue.
Re-read my comment that you just responded to. The point I make is indeed that the extra ‘X’ runs don’t have to come from any particular position. They can come from anywhere. But they are going to be cheaper coming from 1B than from SS.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
So you might as well volunteer for the job
because I can guarantee you that there is not a single GM in all of baseball who won’t disappoint you, given this lofty requirement.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
How do you
know he wasn’t advocating against the deal, and the group overruled him? Which is how the Sox and most good businesses work. I don’t think not having Hanley this year would have prevented the collapse, unless he can pitch.
by aubatron2011 on Oct 13, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Umm
Did you just imply Hanley was a better prospect than Nomar?
Quantum Woodworking: Hand crafted pens, bottle stoppers, bowls and more.
Check out our blog
Hanley is/was incredibly good
And isn’t made of glass, and didn’t play in the offensive explosion era.
by Sean O on Oct 13, 2011 5:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You think the clubhouse was bad this season (and according to reports it was)
How does Hanley improve that?
I think small changes are needed
Like a new manager. And I’ll happily take the extra 50 ops + points.
by Sean O on Oct 13, 2011 5:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
yeah great strategy
when things go bad, get rid of the manager, and DFA the entire roster. What a spoiled brat.
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
by BigBenSportsGuy on Oct 13, 2011 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you illiterate?
Honest question.
by Sean O on Oct 13, 2011 6:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
are you?
Want to see someone really get their brain twisted up? Try explaining the Monty Hall problem to them....
by BigBenSportsGuy on Oct 14, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Better fried chicken recipe?
Good Call of Duty sniper skills?
Tampa Bay Rays Championships: Still Zero
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Oct 13, 2011 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Hanley’s already got issues. Put him on the same team as Youk and Manny for a couple years and the Sox would be really fucked up.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 13, 2011 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions
It's got to be great beaing
a Monday morning QB. I’m sure you thought Nomar was an overrated piece of glass, whose number were inflated in 2000.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
by Lloyd Christmas on Oct 13, 2011 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
*being
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
by Lloyd Christmas on Oct 13, 2011 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Was anyone's numbers not inflated in 2000?
Nomar was amazing, but Hanley was a top 3 player in the nl each year before 2011.
by Sean O on Oct 13, 2011 6:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
By what metric was Hanley a Top 3 player in 2010?
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 13, 2011 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
The metric that shows that my laptop is dead
And so I’m posting by phone, by memory.
Amend the previous to 2010.
by Sean O on Oct 13, 2011 6:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Regarding Hanley
Many evaluators weren’t sure about him. In 2003, Baseball America had Hanley as the #19 prospect in baseball. The following year, he was ranked #39. By 2005, he was #10. The nine prospects ahead of him were: Joe Mauer, King Felix, Delmon Young, Ian Stewart, Joel Guzman, Casey Kotchman, Scott Kazmir, Rickie Weeks, and Andy Marte. As you can see, ranking prospects is not an exact science.
This is from today’s Keith Law chat:
EricJ (SF)
Did you ever scout Hanley Rameriz? I remember he never had impressvie numbers in the minors but I kept hearing about his tools. Did you see star in him?
Klaw
One game in AA. Did not see star. Played slow – not just running slow, but everything about him was a step behind everyone else on the field. To this day I still don’t know what that really meant; obviously he had ability.
Hanley had the reputation of having a poor work ethic in the minors. While his offensive numbers have been better in the majors, his defense has never been good. There were many reasons for the Sox to make that trade.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 13, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
What about planning for the short or long term?
Flip Hanley, leaving nobody in the system. Flip renteria, leaving nobody on the roster.
Incompetent.
by Sean O on Oct 13, 2011 5:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Not really
They were trying to improve their pitching with Beckett, who was only 25 at the time of the trade. Good, young pitchers are very hard to find.
The Sox were able to stay competitive with lesser shortstops. They won a WS in 2007 and came within a game of going to another WS in 2008.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 13, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Who honestly thought Renteria was going to be a flop?
He was a well established SS with WS experience.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
by Lloyd Christmas on Oct 13, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Then why did we trade him a month later?
And, the Cardinals didn’t think he could handle Boston, for one.
by Sean O on Oct 13, 2011 6:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Wow
I didn’t realize he could get 600+ AB’s in a Boston uniform in 1 month!
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
by Lloyd Christmas on Oct 13, 2011 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
What the fuck are you talking about?
Did you read my comment? We traded hanley in November, then traded Renteria in December. That left nobody to play shortstop either for 2006 or beyond.
by Sean O on Oct 13, 2011 6:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
My bad
I thought we were just discussing Renteria at this point.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
by Lloyd Christmas on Oct 13, 2011 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope Ben can continue with the hilarity that Theo was known for...
fave story of night: doug melvin once texted theo on trade deadline – hardy for buchholz/bard…theo’s reply: “lol”
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 13, 2011 4:24 PM EDT reply actions
I hope Cherington knows what he's doing because...
this is a greek tragedy. If the FO wants to regain any semblance of control they need to completely start over. And when I say that I mean they need to gut the entire roster systematically. When they said a new voice was needed in the clubhouse, it’s not just a new manager they need. They need new leadership among the players. As for Papi, Tek and Wake? Thanks for the memories but we’ll take it from here. Beckett? Trade him. And this may surprise but Youk, and Ellsbury? Trade them too. We can no longer count on Youk to hold up over 162 games. We can’t afford to resign Ellsbury. He’s gonna be looking for around 20mil and you don’t pay leadoff guys that kind of money. Try to restock our farm system and if we can get a right-handed power hitting prospect.
As for the major league roster I bring kids up. This year’s team was lazy. Bring up some kids that are “hungry”; hungry to work at the big league level. Kids that want to succeed and will have no problem accepting the leadership of the remaining veterans specifically Pedey, Gonzo and Crawford(this will be their team now). Bring up Middlebrooks. Start Iglesias next year. Let Kalish and Reddick duke it out for a job. Let Lavarnway DH and backup Salty. Maybe Doubront is ready.
As for signings Pap is the one FA I actually bring back. Despite how it ended for him I still think he’s the best option and he holds himself accountable. Bring in a righty bat like Cuddyer or Willingham for no more than 6-8mil if possible. Maybe sign a #3 pitcher; doesn’t have to be an all-star, just someone who will compete and is reliable enough to take the ball every 5th day. We need a team that we can get behind and root for again.
by bucknersrevenge on Oct 13, 2011 5:19 PM EDT reply actions
Right.
While we certainly should be cutting ties with some veterans (Tek and Wake for sure, Papi depending on how the offseason unfolds), the roster you’re suggesting would be lucky to sniff .500. You want Iglesias, who can’t even hit AA pitching, at the MLB level? This isn’t Alex Gonzalez we’re talking about who isn’t much of an MLB hitter, he has no bat at all. Most of our regulars could hit better than him using a pool noodle while he uses a bat. If Beckett is traded
What the fuck on earth would we trade Ellsbury for? If he’s looking for 20M, it’s precisely because he is no longer a typical leadoff slap hitter (Crawford has never sniffed 30 HR). Certainly he has a lot of value but just… this is a very talented team that has some chemistry issues, not, as you put it, a Greek tragedy. Even if you’re to take the whole Hohler article as fact written in stone and blow it up in magnitude as your mind clearly has, Ellsbury would be one of the players to build around. You’re not just throwing the baby out with the bathwater here (Beckett), but you’re tossing the neighbor’s baby (Ellsbury) out as well. That’s a felony, btw. I am very happy reactionaries like you aren’t allowed to run the team.
I do agree there needs to be new leadership among the players, and while it’s certainly not an original idea, it would make me happy to see Pedroia as captain. I know captains in baseball are kind of silly, but if there ever was a time a player deserved it as much as we needed it, it would be with Pedroia. However, I am perhaps alone in my thinking that the players will get most of the message simply by having a new manager and all of the hubbub of the offseason.
I hear what you're saying
but I don’t think I’m being that dramatic. Whether it would be lucky to sniff .500 isn’t my point. We have too many prima donnas and overpaid veterans on the team. I’d rather see if some of our young talent is ready to contribute more. They’re certainly not gonna sit on their butts and lay about like this group did. By the way my basis for feeling this is not solely the Hohler article. There have been too many reports after and DURING the season that led me to feel this way about how these players were being led in the clubhouse and I think it’s time to shake things up.
As for Ellsbury, we’re not gonna sign him. Prototype or not you don’t pay a guy what he’s gonna ask for to leadoff. I don’t care what Crawford has done. Ellsbury is NOT a middle of the order bat. He had a great year year but you don’t pay that guy 20mil. So I say while he’s a hot commodity trade him now, for some pitching if you can, or perhaps a middle of the order hitting prospect. Dynamic leadoff guys are overrated anyway. The Giats won the World Series leading off with Andres Torres. I’m glad YOU don’t run the team. You don’t build around leadoff hitters. That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard of. Who does that??You build around the middle of the order. That’s Pedey and that’s Gonzalez..
I will say though that I agree with you 150% on the “captain” thing. Time to put that to bed for another decade or 2 I think. I’m hoping that the players left after the rubble will be ready to compete each night.
I will say that I don’t think we need a ca
by bucknersrevenge on Oct 13, 2011 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you're vastly underselling Ellsbury and overselling Beckett's destructive capacity
If we actually had any young players who were ready to contribute at the higher level of the minor leagues, this idea might make sense. It is not, however, 2006. Right now, our best talent is 2-3 years away. Especially if you ditch Beckett, we’d be relying on the likes of Weiland, which is a major reason why we are in this mess in the first place. You thought our rotation was bad in September? That’s nothing compared to what we’d see next year.
We’ll see what Ellsbury actually turns out to be. If he regresses and proves to be a less effective hitter, he certainly shouldn’t be signed long-term, especially if he’s looking for that much money. But hell yes I’d be prepared to give him that much money if he continues to hit as well as he did this year. I don’t care if he’s batting leadoff—if this performance keeps up, he could bat anywhere in the order, certainly qualifying as a “middle of the order bat”. What makes Pedroia a middle of the order bat, and Ellsbury not? Pedey bats second after all, which is not the middle of the order. I just don’t understand how you fault Ellsbury essentially for being fast when he has a higher OPS, wOBA… hell, almost everything than Pedroia. It’s nothing against Pedroia and I’m not saying Ellsbury’s BETTER, but to compare Ellsbury’s power unfavorably to Pedroia is foolhardy at best. I realize that he might regress, but if he does, no way will he be worth $20M+/year. Your argument is self-defeating.
If we ditch Beckett
why can’t we bring in a new free agent pitcher? Why do we have to be stuck with Weiland? I would rather sign a free agent pitcher to back up Lester and Buchholz who is reliable and who competes and doesn’t need his own personal catcher and doesn’t get fatter as the season goes on yet is somehow the guy Buchholz looks up to. Sorry. I don’t want that guy.
As for Ellsbury, he is a leadoff guy. He wants to remain a leadoff guy. He is not a middle of the order bat. He had a great year this year and I’m happy for him. But call it whatever you want. I don’t value leadoff guys that high. Not when you look at the parade of leadoff hitters that have leadoff the last several World Series’. I’d rather us spend our next 20mil on a guy who can be a force in the middle of the order. That is not Ellsbury and if it’s not I trade while the value is high.
by bucknersrevenge on Oct 13, 2011 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I just think our SP situation is too tenuous to begin with
Free agent pitching is extremely dicey. There’s CJ Wilson, with whom we’d get into a bidding war with the Yankees over, and Mark Buehrle, who smells far too much like John Lackey for me to be comfortable with. Additionally, Wilson has only been a starting pitcher for two years, albeit a very good one, and Buehrle is not quite as good as Beckett, even if he maintains his performance. After them, there isn’t much. I’d be surprised if the Red Sox didn’t acquire another SP this winter either through FA or the trade market, because we already have holes in our rotation. After getting rid of Beckett, we’d be forced to break the bank, and it would be difficult to get anything too valuable in a trade if we didn’t eat his contract, which would be necessary to free up the requisite money to replace him and fill the other hole(s).
Ellsbury’s valuable as a leadoff guy, and probably will remain one. I don’t understand how that lowers his value. If he keeps hitting like he did in 2011, he’d be the best damn leadoff hitter in the leage, putting Damon in his heyday to shame. Leadoff hitters are usually not valued as much precisely because they lack the power skills Ellsbury displayed in 2011, not by virtue of their batting leadoff.
Buehrle doesn't want a 5 year contract.
1, 2 years at the max.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 13, 2011 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree about the Sox absolutely needing another starter this offseason
but I don’t think they have to try to hit a homerun with the guys who project to get the big cash this offseason like Wilson or Sabathia if he opts out. There are a handful of solid guys that can contribute.to the pitching staff. I like Edwin Jackson who’s pitching for St. Louis right now. If Aaron Harang opts out of Cincy I’d definitely make a run at him. I know Jon Garland just came back from an injury but I thought he was OK at the end of the season. Still a pretty good groundball pitcher and he’d be looking for a place to place to show he’s back to what he was. I’d go with any of those guys and Lester and Buch next year with Lackey and a #5 guy. I’d go after 2 of those guys if I could. I believe those guys are gonna compete and that’s what this year’s staff lacked. That’s what I want next year.
And again as for Jacoby Ellsbury and his value as a leadoff guy, how many 18-20mil a year leadoff guys are there? I don’t care about his pop from the leadoff spot. Getting pop from your leadoff guy is like icing. You don’t pay for it and count on it at that spot. You pay for and count on it in your 3-5 guys where it truly matters. Ellsbury is a luxury and one we soon will not be able to afford anymore. And when you look at the guys who have lead off on Series winning teams over the last 10 years; studs such as David Eckstein, Scott Podsednik, Andres Torres, and Jimmy Rollins(who as a leadoff guy was marginally better than the previous guys when he won), there is no reason you have to place a high value on that spot in the order. When you consider the other needs and where the money should REALLY go you’re left with only 1 option: Trade Jacoby Ellsbury…and fast.
by bucknersrevenge on Oct 13, 2011 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Regarding the pitcher discussion
Harang isn’t even in Cincy and I hope they do not make a run at him. He is in San Diego and that is a big reason why he did so well this year. His last three years in Cincy weren’t really stellar. He pitched a total of 21 starts in Oakland’s pitcher paradise 8-9 years ago. That has utter disaster written all over it. Has a $5 million option.
Similar peripherals to Garland, who I view as more reliable even dispite the injury this year. Garland has earned the title of reliable, but not in the Ace pitcher sense. Before this year he pitched 190+ innings for 9 years, even if they weren’t 1-2 type material. Of course, that is also reason to worry about the mileage on his arm. It amazes me that he has pitched 2,000+ innings and he just turned 32. Depending on his back I would think we could count on him for 170-180 innings at a 4-4.5 ERA (4.58 xFIP is his career). Probably could get him on a 1-2 year deal with him coming off a big injury.
Jackson is also an intriguing choice.
Also, I’m not sure why Buchholz has suddenly earned the “reliable” attribute. He had one great season that many people here have pointed out his peripherals (spelling?) leave those numbers up to interpretation. I would not trade him of course, because you have to see if that season was a fluke or if he is the real deal. With one full, good season he has not earned a title as reliable quite yet.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 14, 2011 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Love the good feedback on the discussion here.
I don’t see Buch as reliable yet either and he does have to be on the field and produce consistently for a longer time to be graded so. I don’t believe I called him reliable but in any case I agree with that point. I will say though I chose those 3 FA pitchers as guys I thought would be more cost-effective than the 2 or 3 big name pitchers that are likely to get a ton of money. Those guys I believe will compete and give us a chance to win and also hopefully no massive egos to fit in with the staff. Thanks for correcting me on on Harang though. I forgot he wasn’t in Cincy anymore. I still like him though. As for their Type A status, I’m glad you brought that up because I hadn’t considered that. But If Papi goes somewhere else we get some picks back. I think putting a competitive, hard-working team on the field is more important than the picks right now.
As for the hitters I’ve softened a little on moving Youk. I’d be okay with keeping him if he can split some time at DH to ease the strain on his back but I don’t trust him anymore. As for Ellsbury, I already said why I’d move him. I don’t think we can keep him. Papi, I think it’s time for a new voice in the clubhouse. He’s 37 and I don’t want to give him a 3 year deal.
Let’s be clear, I never said that after my moves we’d be favorites to win our division or anything. I said that that would be a start to reclaiming back the clubhouse, fielding a hard-working competitive fun team that the fans could root for and then build a potential foundation with to get back to the World Series. So would I be surprised if that team missed the playoffs as this one did? No, but I’d feel a hell of a lot better about it’s future.
by bucknersrevenge on Oct 14, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I misread the "reliable" part of your comment. Apologies.
Now that I reread it you meant sign someone ELSE who is reliable to back-up Buchholz and Lester. I read it more as Sign someone to back up those two guys because they are our reliable pitchers. I always misread things.
I don’t mind Garland because before last year he was more durable, pitched more in the AL than Harang, is younger, and as you pointed out has a higher groundball %. I figured Garland was a guy who could stick around for 2-3 years while our prospects ripen. I do like the idea of Jackson. If we could and needed two of those three I like Jackson and Garland. (depending on cost)
I am torn on Ells, Youk, Papi and Beckett. I see your points behind all of them, don’t get me wrong and they are all good ones. You’re right, ellsbury most likely won’t be here once Free Agency is here. To me the question is when will he be traded not if. Papi would be the most logical (and hardest sentimentally) to see go.
I would in a lot of ways, like to see how these guys respond under a new Manager with some smaller changes because I did enjoy rooting for them this year. Alot. Like I said, I’m not just dismissing your premise, I just think we have too much potential to not try and get rid of 1-2 guys which might help the situation, and see if a new manager can bring redemption.
I’ve gotten sucked into all of these stories and called them quitters and to be honest at times I am probably looking too much into what the media is saying. I’ll be the first to admit it. Which means they are doing their job. This was a good team and to be honest some of the things that have come out have actually made me dislike the media.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 14, 2011 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Part of the reason
Why I think we try to use the window while we have it is that some of our guys who will be stepping in are at least a year away, especially pitching. Which sucks.
Iglesias really shouldn’t be in the MLB. Not good for him or the team. Scutaro could be brought back, for $6 million yes…but he has been an underrated and under-appreciated part of the team these past two years. If Iglesias kills it from April-July in Triple AAA, Scoot could be moved for a minor prospect at the deadline.
Middlebrooks still needs some more time. He is playing fall ball right now which will be good for him, but again..I don’t want to rush him.
It’s different in places like Tampa, Florida, Pittsburgh, etc. The media there isn’t as overpowering as it is here so prospects can come up and get their bumps and bruises at the MLB level. In Boston they need to make sure these guys can perform well enough and get enough time in the minors to mature and deal with it.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 14, 2011 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Regarding the hitter discussion
If you lose Ellsbury, Youk and Papi you lose 3 of our top 5 hitters, who were one of the prime reasons we competed. That cannot be disputed. Looking at SF’s lineup and pointing out how they won does not compare to the Red Sox until the Red Sox have 4 starters who are pitching very well which is why the Giants won. Saying they won with Torres means nothing when you are proposing they go with Lackey (the worst SP in the league this season) possibly at #3 and guys like Garland and Harang at #4-5.
Cuddyer and Willingham are not real cheap options but they are short term which is for the best. Probably will both cost $8-10 million a year for 2-3 year deals. Cuddyer has a 2 year/16 million offer from the only team he has ever played for so it will cost a premium to get him. He is a RF who can’t cover a lot of ground which is not good for Fenway at all. You can’t swap him and Crawford position wise, because Cuddyer is deaf in his left ear and has had trouble communicating in the infield and also in LF. He is a great clubhouse leader though which I like, but that doesn’t mean he’ll exert that leadership in a new clubhouse.
Willingham wants to stay in Oakland but they aren’t necessarily spending money until their stadium situation is figured out. Both him and Cuddyer are Type A free agents, so they will cost draft picks most likely. I like Willingham more than Cuddyer, but not by much.
Iglesias has no business starting next year in the MLBs. He will be black hole in a lineup where you are proposing to get rid of 3 of our best 5 hitters. No. Middlebrooks will start in AAA and if he is good may be brought up mid-season. He also should not start yet at the MLB level.
I do like the idea of having Lavarnway be the primary DH and back-up Salty. I do like the idea of having Redick and Kalish duke it out for RF spot with the other in AAA. We shouldn’t have one of those guys as a fourth or fifth OF’er, because they both (especially Kalish) need as many At-Bats as possible.
As has been said, we were two pitches away from being in the playoffs, and none of this clubhouse bullshit would be given a second thought. They were the best team in baseball for four months and the worst in the last month. That is not reason to blow up the team. Changes need to be made, but those ARE dramatic changes.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 14, 2011 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions
over rated
When you spend a half Billion on free agents it doesn’t take Einstein to put together a winning baseball team. You could pull a guy out of your local sports bar and give him an open check book and he won’t do any worse than Theo. 3 rd place is about as low as you could go with a salary like Boston’s. Now get rid of Becket and all the other club house cancers and hire a manager from the outside who is a take no crap type of guy. And begin a new era. I for one am looking forward to a new era in Boston. After 40 years of being a Sox fan 2011 was the worse by far!!! 2004 the best by the way!!!
The fact that the Sox won in 2004 and 2007
makes this a pill easier to swallow. When I think about this collapse, I still have those great memories to fall back on. With all the frustrations of not winning a WS, 1978,1986 and 2003 were much worse, IMO.
"Man you are one pathetic loser. No offense." - Lloyd Christmas
by Lloyd Christmas on Oct 13, 2011 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Your local bar guy really would do worse than Theo
I’m not sure what the heck you’re saying here.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 13, 2011 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
You forget Theo did most of the drafting
and farm management for guys like Ells, Pedey, Buchholz, Bard, Lars Anderson, Rizzo, Casey Kelly, and MANY other trade chips and stars. Plus he gambled on guys like Ortiz and Salty, and he was able to get a lot from a club house cancer that was Manny for not that much talent (Brandon Moss and a relief pitcher that wasnt that good anyways)
No GM is perfect, especially GM’s that are given lots of $$ to spend on Free Agents, there WILL be failed signings like those of Lackey, Lugo, Renteria, etc. I won’t judge Crawford’s deal yet cus its only one year in. Sox fans like me should be thankful that they had a great GM for 8+ years and wish him a good future with the Cubs.
"I don't put any foreign substances on the baseball. Everything I use is from the good old U.S.A."
JVSM
Pedroya Lova
by Dustin's #1 Fan on Oct 13, 2011 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
If what you're saying is true
Why are the Mets so terrible? The Cubs? Detroit, with the amount of money they spend, by your definition, should contend every year. The Angels should be much better and not getting into the playoffs mostly because their divisional rivals are terrible (that is, before the Rangers became real players). The Dodgers? The Phillies have only started spending like us an having success lately; we’ll see if that pans out long-term.
I’m just saying it’s not as easy as you think, and Epstein’s real value was not so much in the particular players he acquired and developed, although he mostly did very well, but in the way he changed the culture of how the team operates. Over the last ten years, the Red Sox have turned team management into a strength when it had always been a weakness—an historical weakness, which you should know if you’ve really been a fan for 40 years.
"After 40 years of being a Sox fan 2011 was the worse by far!!!"
Really? 40 years?
You’ve watch how many GMs come in and have the Red Sox revenues at their disposal and .win … zero world series titles?
“a guy out of your local sports bar”
Right.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.
This
3 rd place is about as low as you could go with a salary like Boston’s.
Makes it seem like the Red Sox are the only teams you ever look at in terms of salary vs. results.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 14, 2011 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Dear Ben,
Your first decision has to be: FIRING THAT SCOUT!
Epstein dropped the following bomb during an interview with WEEI:
"The more we dug on him, and we covered him as if we were privately investigating him. … We had a scout on him literally the last three, four months of the season at the ballpark, away from the ballpark."
Twitter | "Almost every organization has a guy like Papelbon or Lester" - Dave Cameron 12/29/2005
The player in questionis Carl Crawford.
Twitter | "Almost every organization has a guy like Papelbon or Lester" - Dave Cameron 12/29/2005
Scout hard always.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 14, 2011 3:51 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 14, 2011 7:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Suggested correction:
Your first decision has to be: FIRING UPON THAT SCOUT!
Tampa Bay Rays Championships: Still Zero
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Oct 13, 2011 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe that scout was on the Ray’s payroll
by OzTiger on Oct 13, 2011 7:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I thought the Rays didn't have a payroll...
… and competed by acquiring young talent, liberal use of fairy-dust and unicorn farts and a strict policy of non-incompetence.
Tampa Bay Rays Championships: Still Zero
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Oct 13, 2011 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
It's an easy mistake to make but
it’s FANS they don’t have any of. Payroll they do, barely.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I can only assume...
… your estimate includes only actual people and not empty seats. #newfangledfuzzymath
Tampa Bay Rays Championships: Still Zero
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Oct 13, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Over the Monster
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- College player makes impossible over the fence catch to save tournament game (Video)
- Security!: Camden Yards guard collides with Royals’ Mike Moustakas
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
