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Papi not doing himself any favors

The following will be a rant in reaction to David Ortiz' interview for ESPN (with Colleen Dominguez) which aired last night. My original intentions are for it to be short. [Fail!]

Firstly, Papi was asked a good question. Did he think by season's end that Terry Francona held the respect of his players? The pause that followed was startling--as if to say promptly, "Well, the obvious answer to that question would be no. No, he did not," all of which he had time to say during his pause. He then meekly offered, "I think so." Maybe he did think so. Maybe he needed time to give that good question fair consideration. But his response to the issue was a far cry from offering loyal support to his manager and teammates, contrasting noticeably, for example, with Pedroia's response in a WEEI interview given the same day.

But enough with that. Besides the past he was also asked about the future, and without prompting he expressed reservations about re-signing with the Red Sox. Again speaking meekly, he said,

There's too much drama, man. There's too much drama. I have been thinking about a lot of things. I don't know if I want to be part of this drama for next year. It's something that I would talk about a little when the time comes.

Then comes the kind of sensationalizing question Dominguez is required to ask if she wants to keep her job: would he consider playing for the (gasp!) Yankees? Ortiz' complete response has been edited as evidenced by differing content in the video and the accompanying online article. But I think an accurate representation would be this:

That's something that I gotta think about. I've been here on the Red Sox a long time, and I've seen how everything goes down between these two ballclubs.... [The Yankees' situation] is great from what I hear. It's a good situation to be involved in. Who doesn't want to be involved in a good organization where everything goes down the right way? You know, like, they lost, they lost just like we did; they just went to the first round of the playoffs, you know. And I haven't heard nobody coming out killing everybody just because they lost.

I will forgo here comparing the Red Sox' and Yankees' 2011 seasons and why, besides the difference of a single five-game series, they might have elicited different responses. I will also forgo discussing how the aging Yankee superstars have been made to feel by their management in instances such as contract negotiations. I will instead take a sympathetic look at Papi's situation as a Red Sox icon entering free agency as the premier (albeit aging) player at the least valuable position in the game.

Like Derek Jeter last offseason, David Ortiz stands to make money way over market value only with his home team on account of the brand value and box office draw that result from his relationship with the fans. By messing with that value, he is tossing away precious negotiation leverage. By far his best opportunity at a good deal and sustained respect within the game is by eventually re-signing with the Red Sox. Fortunately for him, the Red Sox have definite needs this offseason, needs which he could possibly provide.

First and foremost, the front office needs to overturn and reconstruct the clubhouse culture and will be very interested to know whether Papi can be a part of those efforts. I sincerely think he can be, but in this interview I do not see Papi taking that path. He repeatedly blames the problems in Boston on all the "drama," citing the drama as the cause of his dissatisfaction with the organization. When asked if he identifies the "drama" as the alleged behavior of his teammates, he enthusiastically said he does not, claiming all such behavior is consistent with the winning Red Sox teams of 2004 and 2007. The suggestion then seems to be made that holding players accountable for such behavior, blaming the September collapse on the behavior and attitudes of the players, is in fact what he means by the "drama." He disagrees, for example, with the alleged behavior of the starting pitchers on their off-days, but then says unequivocally, "To be honest with you, starting pitchers are on their own when they're not pitching. That wasn't a problem." This does not sound like a player who would help the team stem the tide of entitlement and change the clubhouse culture. Even worse, he goes further and charges the owners with the responsibility of reversing the team's fortunes.

All the drama, all the little, stupid things that I see going on around here--you're not gonna solve any problems with that, we're not gonna go back to the World Series, you know. We're not gonna, what, play better in the September that is already gone. You know, I think that the solution of the whole thing is [for] our owners to do what they've been doing, you know, try to fix things, and get ready to go for next year, but....

Dustin Pedroia in his interview, it should be said, likewise defended the players' behavior and attitudes, covering his teammates and blaming the collapse on mere poor performance. But he did so with no sense of entitlement or passive-aggressive counterattack. He did well (he normally does). He takes responsibility for a return to success next year, which is the attitude that team owners will definitely look for in Ortiz when negotiating with him this winter. There is such a great opportunity for Papi here to create a positive attitude for next season, adding all the caveats of an as-yet unsigned free agent. At this point nothing, I think, could bolster his value more in the eyes of his most important suitors, the Red Sox management--and through them he could increase his leverage with other ballclubs if he really wanted to leave.

Because maybe Papi's passive-aggressive attack at the Red Sox bosses is justified. If they purposefully leaked dirt on Francona to needlessly smear his name upon departing--after all the covering up he did for the team--yeah, they did a bad thing. Maybe, even, they would be wrong to blame the players' commitment levels when, hey, all those September losses were just the craziness of baseball. And maybe he would prefer to walk away from his greatest negotiation leverage than pretend that he still respected the Red Sox organization. But he is not doing himself any favors. Designated hitter is the least valued position, and only fourteen teams use it. The Yankees, given the current state of their roster, would have no interest in signing him, really, except possibly out of spite for the Red Sox--and if the Red Sox expressed they were done with him, then it would only be out of spite to Red Sox fans. That would not be productive. If the Red Sox and Ortiz sour on each other, the Yankees will no longer be interested in driving up his price, and he will fall subject to a weak market. The bulk of his prestige will be gone, while the Red Sox as an institution will move on without him.

But nothing is done that cannot be undone, I don't think. This too can pass, if he can just ignore the "drama" and contribute to a positive attitude. Unlike Francona and Epstein, whose feelings toward the team Ortiz appears to have adopted, the players have more time to recover and renew their perspectives. Just think about it: Next year Ellsbury, Pedroia, Gonzalez, and Ortiz could again lead the Red Sox offense, our offense. That thought makes me happy at least.

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Let him leave

Nobody should want a guy talking like that on a team they root for.

I’m sure he felt this way in September too and it showed in his performance, he is (now) a quitter.

The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion

by gizmosandy on Oct 13, 2011 7:22 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree. He came off petulent and he's one of the ones that I feel threw Francona under the bus...

it sounds to me like he’s got one foot out the door. Might open up the DH spot for Youk to do some timesharing. Which I’m ok with. If Youk gets some significant starts at DH I think he won’t break down towards the end of the season. 3B is a pretty tough spot to play. But I loved Ortiz’ numbers this year but his attitude is coming off childish.

Official Driver of the Draft Andy Dalton Winnebago. In the sidecar of the draft Mark Ingram motorcycle.

by NavajoShamanSchoolAlum on Oct 13, 2011 8:53 AM EDT reply actions  

To be honest

I think his attitude has changed here since he was called out so vehemently (spelling?) a couple of years ago when he started off rediculously slow. I think it changed his attitude towards the media and fans alike. Sometimes you can just tell when he is getting interviewed.

Not meaning to defend him, more of an observation. That observation aside, I think this interview was very disapointing coming from him.

by The Name is Dalton on Oct 13, 2011 9:00 AM EDT reply actions  

Sounds like a negotiating ploy

Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

by CasanovaWong on Oct 13, 2011 9:36 AM EDT reply actions  

Negotiating ploy, sure

but not a good one when your team is pretty much in shambles, with a new GM and no manager, your fans are pissed at the team for clubhouse reasons, and half the fans think that our third baseman should be a DH next year anyways (and we have an up an coming catcher who may be better off DHing most of the time). Just sounds petty.

for the record, I don’t mean the Yankees thing. Whatever, I don’t think that even would make sense for the Yankees. It’s the bitching about the drama.

by wolf9309 on Oct 13, 2011 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good point

If they could get a 3B (via trade or Free agent) they could use Youk at DH more. It would probably help keep him healthier, and I think losing him in September is something that is often not brought up as a contributing factor but it really was. I would be curious to see the statistics of Gonzo and Ortiz when he wasn’t there to hit between them.

Like you said, Lavarnway would also DH some and that is also important in my eyes because he’ll need to get alot of at-bats in and if he is the back-up catcher I would expect something of a 70-30 split between him and Salty.

by The Name is Dalton on Oct 13, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would rather have Ortiz or Lava at DH than Youkilis

He’s had reports come out in successive years now saying he is a poor clubhouse influence. I say we trade him and get some value from him. Let Middlebrooks play third, or trade for Chase Headley.

I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.

by TheLoneDavid on Oct 13, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am referring to a situation where he is still here.

I wouldn’t mind seeing him shipped out either if we could get a little something something in return. Although he is good for getting hit by pitches, since I’ve heard players on other teams don’t really like him either though I don’t know how accurate it is.

I’m going to operate under the assumption either him, or Papi willl be back. I don’t see them getting rid of both of them, but then again a month and a half ago I couldn’t have seen the #$%#-show that we are seeing in the media.

by The Name is Dalton on Oct 13, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

Youk, a healthy Youk is part of the solution, not the problem. The crap coming out about Youk is just part of the tide of bile right now. Everyone is looking for the scapegoats and even quiet, top performing and personalble guys like Ellsbury get pulled in to the discussion.

by Scoop1981 on Oct 13, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Youk is healthy

is a big if. He’s missed significant time at the end of the year twice in a row now, and is looking a lot like a better hitting Mike Lowell every day now.

I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.

by TheLoneDavid on Oct 13, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

He played as many games as Headley

And even a dimished Youk will likely be better than Headley or Middlebrooks in the short term.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Oct 13, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree

a diminished Youk would be fine… at DH. I would rather have an above average glove at 3B, even if it means the bat drops off a bit.

I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.

by TheLoneDavid on Oct 13, 2011 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Headley is a below average glove

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Oct 13, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

in 2011

for his career, he has a UZR/150 at 3B of 7.5

I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.

by TheLoneDavid on Oct 14, 2011 3:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe

But I imagine that the owners will look hard at the attitude of him and Paps before deciding to resign them and trying to guess how they will react to all of this. I can see how they would be irked at some of the stuff that is coming out, especially the BS about Francona. But if the owners don’t think he wants to be here and deal with the drama that is inevitable next spring, and if they are already on the fence about bringing him back…I don’t know if this will make them throw more money at him to get him to stay. They might just say, “If you don’t want to deal with the storm that is coming, we’ll take the 10-12 million and use it on starting pitching depth, OF depth, a 3B, etc.” Unless you mean it’s a negotiating ploy to get more teams out there that will bid for his services, which is definately possible.

by The Name is Dalton on Oct 13, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just business

Don’t get too caught up in this stuff. When it comes down to it, Papi and all free agents will simply take the best deal, usually the richest deal they are offered. The Red Sox and the new GM will make a call with Papi either way. It is just business to Papi and the Red Sox.

As a fan, I would want Ortiz back, no questions. His performance and attitude have always been great between the lines.

by Scoop1981 on Oct 13, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cannot blame him in the least.

Why in Jobu’s name would he want to be here after what’s happened the last couple of years? The fan base turned on him during his struggles and the team turned their backs on him in September when he tried to rally them. If I was a Red Sox free agent, any free agent, I’d get out of here as quickly as humanly possible. I love Ortiz, he’s the guy that got me into baseball in the first place and it would suck to see him go, especially… there… but not a bit of me would blame him for seeking greener pastures after how things have gone down the last couple of seasons.

Alternatively, this could be his way of sending a message to the boys, letting them know how messed up it is that he’s thinking of going to New York to get away from it.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Oct 13, 2011 1:18 PM EDT reply actions  

+1

Spot on.

I hope the big fella stays. I don’t have a problem with anything he said.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Oct 21, 2011 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm going to have some fun. Bear with me, this will be lengthy

I’m going to list all the possible teams he could go to. First, I’m going to discount all the NL teams, as I don’t think anyone is going to play him at first for a year- maybe the Giants would (that seems very Sabean to me) except that half their roster is players that should probably be playing first or DHing already. So:
The most important fact to keep in mind is that he’ll cost anyone besides the Sox a draft pick, apart from money. Correct me where you think I’m wrong.

Red Sox- probably most likely, unless he keeps talking like that
Yankees- Probably want a combo of Montero/ARod/Tex/Jeter here, and probably don’t want to give up the first round pick or spend the money that should probably go to their rotation
Orioles- probably aren’t contending and would be better served picking up someone cheaper like Luke Scott
Blue Jays- Probably Lind/Encarnacion have this locked up
Rays- outspending the Sox in money and a draft pick would be the least Rays-like thing I’ve ever heard of

Tigers- Martinez has the spot
White Sox- Adam Dunn will be attempting to actually hit this year
Twins- perhaps, though I doubt they want to make a large commitment to a DH
Royals- Billy Butler
Indians- Travis Hafner

Angels- Abreu is there one more year as primary DH
Rangers- Maybe they could move Young to first and sign Papi, though that seems quite unlikely to me.
Mariners- probably second most likely. Probably won’t compete, but they desperately need power
A’s- Could use the power. Could probably use a new ballpark, city, fans, and money more.

OK Papi, enjoy free agency. We’ll see how you feel about the drama once you get the market sized up. We can’t wait to hear how excited you are to play for our new unnamed manager.

by wolf9309 on Oct 13, 2011 1:22 PM EDT reply actions  

You may be able to add Houston though I'm not sure why in the world he would want to go there.

I don’t think it is final, but Gammons tweeted that the Houston ownership change is expected to go through in November and with it a move to the American League (Presumably the AL West).

by The Name is Dalton on Oct 13, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

well if they go over

DH is Carlos Lee’s job.

In any case, with the schedule already created and it being this late in the process, I find it hard to believe that they would re-do all of that for 2012. I think that they’ll move over to the AL West, but in 2013

by wolf9309 on Oct 13, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Probably right on both counts

Lee had to play half his games at 1B this year. I looked at his dWAR and saw it had been negative for 4-5 years and all of a sudden jumped up to 2.1 this year. And I am assuming that the primary reason why was his move to 1B.

Fun fact. Carlos Lee has a brother also named Carlos.
Which these guys think is hilarious.

by The Name is Dalton on Oct 13, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

He will stay in the AL East

I’m not counting out the Yankees. I don’t think they want Montero to be a full time DH and Jeter/Tex/A-Rod only DH if they are coming off an injury. I don’t see A-Rod as a full time DH for a couple of years, Texeira is a gold-glove 1B, and Jeter will not give up the SS position to DH. Jeter is also a gold glover SS (lol). Money and drafts picks will not worry the Yankees. If the market sets at two years, they will be a player. After 2-3 years, A-rod will be the DH.

The Blue Jays and Orioles could also look to make a move since the players you mention can also play field.

by Scoop1981 on Oct 13, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

well my point in saying that they will DH is

not that any of them will be a full time DH, but because Girardi does like to rotate them all into DH occasionally. Each of them DH’d 9 or 10 games last year, which adds up to something- and I doubt they’re going to want to spend $12 million on a player that isn’t playing for 40-something games (including interleague). I don’t believe that money is something entirely irrelevant to them either. I really do think Montero will mostly be DHing- they still have control of Martin, and the fact that they didn’t really have Montero catch at all implies to me that they aren’t going to start the year with him as their go-to guy behind the plate.
Plus, signing Ortiz I feel would be a PR move for the Yankees akin to if A-Rod was hitting free agency and the Sox signed him. Just confusing.

The players on the Blue Jays and Orioles can play the field, but not well. I figure that between Encarnacion and Lind, the Jays have a first baseman and a DH- and if they were to play Encarnacion at third, I think it would only be because they had signed one of the big first basemen to a long contract.
I can’t speak quite so much for the Orioles as I don’t even know who their GM will be, but it seems to me, that if I were the incoming GM, an aging, expensive DH is probably the least efficient place they could possibly allocate their resources.

by wolf9309 on Oct 13, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I could see them using Montero similarly to how we could use Lavarnway

Not that I’m equating Lavarnway to Montero as potential, obviously. Only in the sense that both guys (I believe) are said to still need a little defensive work before becoming (if they ever do) full time backstops. The Yanks have Martin to catch a lions share of the games, much like the Sox have Salty.

Keeping a “full-time” DH guy off the roster would allow Montero/Lavarnway to get plenty of extra ABs which they wouldn’t really get if they were just back-up catchers. Plus, the teams can easily slide other position players in the DH slot for the games those guys catch which probably would be around 40 games or so.

by The Name is Dalton on Oct 13, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

precisely

at least, that’s how I’d run things if I were in charge over there.

by wolf9309 on Oct 13, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Going to the Mariners ? That would probably be his last contract ever,

because that cavern would kill his numbers.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Oct 21, 2011 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

agreed, and I don't think the Mariners are likely

just second most-likely. Which drives the fact home that he’s almost certainly re-signing with the sox

by wolf9309 on Oct 21, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Oct 21, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

His power at Safeco would become

a thing of the past, like Beltre. So your ‘second most likely’ is not in his best interest, even if they could afford him.
I keep doing the numbers for Papi vs a successful Lavarnway at DH/C. Not only would they be comparable
but with Youk/Gonzo at DH while he catches 50-60 games improves the odds of enhanced health, energy and production from both of them. This also adds a 5th bench player or 8th RP to the 25 man roster. Personally, I hope he stops whining, stops getting his eyebrows plucked, comes to ST in fantastic shape again on a one/one year contract. But if he doesn’t, the Sox will compete, and do so without his drama. I am totally disappointed he didn’t support Tito who stuck with him through two seasons of early ineptitude when the world was screaming to bench him. Loyalty and a sense of entitlement seem mutually exclusive.

by GerryT on Oct 13, 2011 1:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Don't blame him

Papi has been a top performer and great representer of the Red Sox for many years, and he has provided the most positive drama on the field in recent Red Sox history, probably ever. I would like to say to Papi that yes, there is a ton of drama around the team right now because your team lost out on the postseason with such DRAMA.

by Scoop1981 on Oct 13, 2011 2:39 PM EDT reply actions  

I would extend his current deal for two years at the same price in a heart beat.

His past rep was best DH in baseball, his current rep, and fact, is still best DH in baseball. He put up a .405 wOBA this season. He is by no means done.

I swear people see blood in the water and are attacking just for shitzngiggles. Tito’s gone, let’s destroy his memory, Theo’s gone time to label him overrated, Papi might not want to stay, he’s grossly overpaid.

This is getting ridiculously out of hand.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Oct 13, 2011 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree about the overreaction

I’m not sure I’d give Papi 2 years/$25 million at his age (he’ll be 36 next year). I’d like to see the Sox get him for less.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Oct 13, 2011 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Less is always better, but if a couple million is the difference between getting him and not.

I’d pay the extra money for the assurance of having the best DH in the league.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Oct 13, 2011 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey I'm a Papi fan

but I also think the Sox need to get younger

by BobZupcic on Oct 13, 2011 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is certainly a good reason to want him gone.

I’d like to get younger too, but I’m not sure that DH is going to be a position we can do that, I would assume we would be leaning on Lavarnway to cover and I don’t like leaning on rookies. Or we lean on Youk and get a younger 3B, which I would be amenable to, but the question is who?

Needing to get younger isn’t a personal attack on Ortiz, essentially calling him an overpaid has-been is and that is a mentality I really don’t agree with and seems all too prevalent amongst the fan base at the moment.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Oct 13, 2011 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed... I am very disappointed with how we're handling this.

I mean, we missed the playoffs by a game. Much like 2010, but not quite as badly, we lost key players down the stretch due to injury (Youk and Buchholz leading that list in my mind), and we’ve run out the manager, run out the GM, there’s stuff being thrown every direction.

All of this is being handled poorly, by the management, the Boston media, and the Boston fans.

Honestly, I feel like we’re reacting like spoiled children… or… yes… Yankees fans.

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til next year!

by AlohaSox on Oct 14, 2011 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep.

I’m more disgusted with some of the media and fans right now than I am with (most of) the players.

Let me clarify – I’m disappointed in many of the players.

I’m disgusted by many of the media and some of the fans by the way they’ve covered / reacted to this.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Oct 21, 2011 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right

Papi was 7th best hitter in all of baseball by wOBA and tied for 9th (with Adrian Gonzalez) by wRC+

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Oct 13, 2011 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

True but will he be next season and the year after

and are you willing to bet 10-12 million per on that

by BobZupcic on Oct 13, 2011 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would be.

This season truly restored my faith in the man after the 2009 and 2010 debacles. Even in those two years he was a tremendous DH and I think represent the worst-case of two years of age decline in Ortiz.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Oct 13, 2011 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've been saying this since this story

came out. The ownership is just preparing Red Sox nation, for a little bit of a makeover. Gone will be Ortiz, Wake, Varitek, possibly Papelbon, Drew, and possibly other players (Beckett and almost definitely Lackey, and maybe Youkilis). And when they explain why they didn’t bring back the players, look for a line similar to this. “They had a chance to deal with the problems of this team last season given their seniority on the team, and they didn’t.” The fans that don’t follow the team every day will by that story, and team will be re-molded around Pedroia, Ellsbury, Buchholz, Lester, Gonzalez, CC, if he stays Youk as well.

by aubatron2011 on Oct 13, 2011 9:36 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree

with the 5 players you mentioned to remodel this team around is definitely a good start. The sixth though, CC, would be nice too but I don’t think it will happen. Also hear the Rangers want to try to get him.

by Watruduin on Oct 14, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

When I said

CC I meant Carl Crawford, not Sabathia.

by aubatron2011 on Oct 14, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let him leave

make the Yanks older and slot Youk as the DH to save the knees

by BobZupcic on Oct 13, 2011 9:48 PM EDT reply actions  

I can only add,

Papi forgets, he was also part of the drama and the biggest incident, when he barged into Tito’s office calling out a scorekeeper about 1 RBI he thought he should have gotten. Showed a lot of respect for the manager with that act huh? And yes, he is also throwing Francona under the bus to say. Sure, we all loved Papi when he was doing his thing and producing, including 2011. But with all the turmoil going on now, he would rather quit istead of trying to be a solution to the problem. The only place he gets money from is the Red Sox now. I say, let him try to get offers from other teams. And he must also forget about the drama with the Yankees earlier this past season.

by Watruduin on Oct 14, 2011 2:35 PM EDT reply actions  

I think that was largely overplayed

You’re also forgetting that Dustin Pedroia was pranking him on it to, telling him that Theo had ordered the RBI taken away by the scorekeeper in an effort to lower his leverage come negotiation time. It wasn’t a normal situation. And also, he had a right to be pissed, we may believe other wise, but players care about their stats, to us it’s a game, to them it’s their livelihood and in a contract year more than ever, every hit, every RBI matters when it comes to him getting his next contract.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Oct 14, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes. No different than if you lost credit for something you did at work.

Like doing all the research for a paper only to not get your name on it as a co-author or something like that.

Counting stats like RBIs are meaningful to guys who get paid based on how they rank in those stats at the end of the season.

So yeah, he has a right to be pissed about something like that.

I certainly wouldn’t rank that as anywhere near ‘the biggest incident’ – or well, maybe it was because really, maybe that says all the ‘incidents’ are really overblown.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Oct 21, 2011 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Crawford's not going anywhere

because there’s not a lot of teams that are going to be willing to take on that contract.

by aubatron2011 on Oct 14, 2011 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope so

just bc Carl has done nothing to deserve this hate…. except have a down year

by SoxAcumen on Oct 14, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only other team

that could afford his contract is the Yankees, and the Sox would never trade him there.

by aubatron2011 on Oct 14, 2011 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Completely, totally, fully, absolutely agree.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Oct 14, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm with you on this.

Having trouble coming here and reading some of this stuff lately.

So sad… all the goodwill of two World Series wins in a decade thrown out with the bath water.

What a horrible overreaction by everyone involved.

I thought we’d never win it all. And then we went down 0-3 to the Yankees in 2004, and I thought it was the end of the world.

Wait ’til next year!

by AlohaSox on Oct 14, 2011 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Chicken or Egg.

are some (not all) Sox fans negative because their media input from numerous local sources is so vitriolically negative, or because the media is responding to vitriolic and negatively vocal fans who swamp the phone lines and blogosphere with their hate? Interesting that most Sox fans living outside of New England have a much more balanced approach, but are still negatively Impacted by Boston area media and bloggers. Art no longer imitates life, the sheer volume of media (art) means it is more likely imitated.

by GerryT on Oct 15, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand being upset, but please keep in mind

Tito was not fired. Theo was not fired. Theo, at least, they wanted to keep much longer but he had enough of Boston. I think you’re reading too much into the media storylines about this.

by wolf9309 on Oct 17, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

They were't fired.

But it’s not like they’ve been treated well over the last month either. A lot of stuff that came out about Tito no one needed to know true or not. Henry should have just shut up before he made his comment about Crawford, while his intent was debatable, what he said could easily be taken to mean he doesn’t support Theo or Crawford.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Oct 17, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes, what he said can be misinterpreted

but if you listen to the interview, it was obviously not his intent. I haven’t heard anything negative about Theo, certainly not from the Sox.

To blame the ownership for that stupid information that came up is making a lot of assumptions. Everyone knows that he takes pain pills and has for years. There are certainly plenty of people who would know if he’s having a year’s worth of marital issues. Those no reason, in the case of those two things at least, why the author would have even needed to find out from the ownership.

by wolf9309 on Oct 17, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just want to chime in that Papi was chosen as the winner of the Roberto Clemente Award this year.
The Roberto Clemente Award is given annually to the Major League Baseball (MLB) player who “best exemplifies the game of baseball, sportsmanship, community involvement and the individual’s contribution to his team”, as voted on by baseball fans and members of the media.

This is the second year in a row that a Red Sox player has won the award – Tim Wakefield won it last year.

The Roberto Clemene Award is a very serious honor and represents players who have acknowledged the privilege of their celebrity and acted on their responsibilities back to the community.

Fans who are so quick to chase people out of town for supposed ‘character’ issues really need to just shut the F up and look in the mirror for a while.

NBA Officiating - Corrupt? Incompetent? Which is worse? Does it matter? It sucks.

by mmmmm on Oct 21, 2011 10:17 AM EDT reply actions  

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