It's Official: Theo Leaving For Cubs
The Globe's Peter Abraham has confirmed that Theo Epstein is indeed leaving the Red Sox and will take over the GM duties for the Chicago Cubs by the end of this week. So this, officially speaking, sucks.
8 months ago
Matthew Kory
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-1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 12, 2011 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
-2
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
-3
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
Herreshoff.info -- The most awesome website since the invention of the internet.
by QW on Oct 13, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel like we are FUBAR next season.
Are we, in fact, FUBAR next season?
I don’t think the locker room nonsense is going to magically be fixed over the offseason…
This is all a huge bummer.
Thankfully,
that locker room nonsense didn’t stop us from being the best team in baseball for the majority of the season, and we wouldn’t be hearing about any of it if we’d won two more games. We’ll be fine.
The locker room nonsense is the one thing you can guarantee WILL be fixed, Id wager
The players know they’re going to be under a microscope and that the new manager will want to be seen to come down hard on any funny business. Still very good chance the worst offenders are shipped out, too. If not, Pedroia, Crawford & co are probably going to come in and set a tone.
As long as Beckett and Youk are gone I will be happy
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I agree with you on Youk.
Beckett I am not so sure of. I guess it would depend on what we would get back for him.
Beckett for a RF
Youk for a SP, to replace Beckett
Let Aviles/Lowrie play 3B
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
by gizmosandy on Oct 12, 2011 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You are selling low on Youk, and probably won't get much
Aviles/Lowrie are huge downgrade from Youk. Beckett won’t be easy to replace. The Sox can get a RF via FA.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 12, 2011 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
The issue of course is
If you keep them you risk a clubhouse repeat of this year.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Why?
Youk has always been a bit of an a-hole (maybe Beckett too). What’s new about this year? The team failed for so many reasons, chemistry is no first among them. A lot of what happened in September was flukey too.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 12, 2011 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Just speculating
And maybe buying in too much to the stories coming out. But maybe chemistry is the first among them. I’m not certain that Beckett, Bedard or Buchholz staying healthy negates September from occuring. Even if we made the playoffs, we had a problem on our hands.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Just take the final day alone ... from the 8th inning on of both games
What are the odds that TB win (even with their comeback, they were down to their last strike with an awful hitter up)? The O’s were also down to their last strike with Paps on the mound. You could play those two scenarios over hundreds of times. 99 times out of 100, the Sox make the playoffs.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 12, 2011 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure
But would making the playoffs have made the club house lack of chemistry OK?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
No
But winning breeds chemistry. All the stuff that has been spread by the media is mostly crap. If the Sox had clubhouse problems, they likely had them all year. How come eating chicken and drinking beer wasn’t a problem from April 16th to August 31st, when the Sox were 81-42?
If the Sox had lost the WS in 2004, I’m sure we’d hear all about what a problem drinking in the clubhouse was.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 12, 2011 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions
If one of those flukey things had gone our way
And we made the playoffs, if September only went 99% badly for us rather than the 100% we got, we’d still be hearing about this. This team had serious issues in September and making the playoffs in the end wouldn’t have changed that though.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
The team was on pace for 100 wins for most of the season
The problems everyone is writing about didn’t just happen in September. Therefore, they aren’t likely the cause of the collapse.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 12, 2011 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Or they built over the year like a snowball
And by the end of August it was finally big enough to cause problems.
Either way, it’s all speculation as I said at the start, none of us were actually there to document how this went down.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Points
If the Sox had clubhouse problems, they likely had them all year.
Based on what?
How come eating chicken and drinking beer wasn’t a problem from April 16th to August 31st, when the Sox were 81-42?
Who knows? But it is conceivable that it started somewhere in that stretch, and then it got really bad as the year wore on, leading the September Suckfest.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Based on what?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
According to Papi it has been going on even before 2010
From ESPN:
As for the reports of drinking in the clubhouse, Ortiz said it was nothing new.
“We had that when we won the World Series in 2004,” he said. “We had that when we won the World Series in 2007. Beer in the clubhouse, it’s always been there. Video games, that’s always been there; guys eating fried chicken, that’s always been there.”
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 13, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Yes, yes, yes.
Love Youk, but he’s past his prime. We could sell Beckett while his value is high right now. He was a Cy Young candidate most of the year.
Much premature on Youk.
We need his bat and intensity for another couple of years.
by GerryT on Oct 12, 2011 8:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Couple of years?
Are you really confident he will hold up that long? Youk is breaking down.
I have to agree on needing Youk
While I was surprised (be it naivete or not) that Youk was such a problem, I realize the guy was hurt and probably frustrated knowing he’s such an intense guy. While that’s no excuse to be a douche, I would be willing to give Youk another chance. But he needs to stay healthy.
Thanks Tito & Theo for 04 and 07.
I liked TLD's proposal in another post.
A multi team trade that nets us Chase Headley and Ryan Dempster and prospects at the cost of Youk and Beckett.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I'm fine with Headley
But if we’re trading for a pitcher I’d try and offer a bit more and try and land a guy like John Danks.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Youk is much better than Headley
And Beckett is better than Dempster.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 12, 2011 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Youk is leaving soon, whether by a trade or at the end of his contract.
Chase is at minimum his equal defensively at 3B, at maximum among the better defenders there. His bat has been above average in PetCo. He’d be a significant bat here.
Sure Beckett is better than Dempster, you will receive NO argument there. I think this is largely where the “and prospects” come in to even out the deal. Dempster would be operating on his one year option and then he and Beckett would be off the payroll forever, freeing us up a bit if we need it depending on which prospects step up over the next year or two.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Headly has had exactly one above average offensive season by wRC+
Which is park adjusted.
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 12, 2011 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
?
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4720&position=3B/OF
I see 08,09 and 11 being above with 10 being a 100 on the nose.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
He is also under team control through 2014
Youk has a year and then an option left.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Only if the option is deemed as 'worth it'
I’m begging to think it won’t. Plus we would be presented with a couple years to sign him to a friendly deal like we did Youk in the first place.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
From what I understand Dempster doesn't want to leave Chicago
He refused to allow them to shop him at the trade deadline this year, because he viewed it as quitting on the team. He wants to win in Chicago and is probably incredibly excited to see what this year will bring with Theo at the helm. While it is not completely out of the realm of possibility of him accepting a trade, given the kind of guy he is I highly doubt it.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 12, 2011 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't disagree with any of that
The idea is how much are they better and for how long?
Young, cost-controlled players are assets. Dempster really isn’t that though. But Headley is. I bet you could probably try and make a deal for Headley work while still keeping Youk and Beckett.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions
With Beckett the idea is to clear payroll a bit.
Dempster would give us a good year and then financially we’re in the clear for both.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
And after '12
Cain, Sanchez, and Danks are all also FA
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 12, 2011 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, I see
I guess that’s fair, I just don’t see Beckett’s contract being that detrimental to us I guess.
I’d much rather just try and trade for someone like Danks instead for a year.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Ideally it would be Lackey's contract we would trade
But uh yeah… that thing happened… and well… we can’t get rid of it.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
The Cubs have need at 3B though
the White Sox do not. I think.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 12, 2011 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Wasn't really talking about trading Youk for Danks though
I think we could probably get by with one more year of Youk at 3B, which extra time at DH being preferable.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
If we absolutely have to keep Youk
which I’m going on record now as saying I do not want to do. I think he should be a DH.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 12, 2011 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I like Youk at DH too
You’re right though, Headley is probably the best of the available 3B this winter, but I think we can maybe get him without also having to get rid of Youk.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I just think Youk needs to go
he’s been noted as a problem player two years in a row.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 12, 2011 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Beckett going south is a direct result of John Lackey being around.
Not to mention, Beckett was the one with best year. Came through in big games when we needed it all year until September…
I know a GM that would love to take Beckett off the Sox hands
And would help solve their Catcher situation at the same time!
I think our catcher situation is overstated
Salty was actually pretty good this year and Lavarnway is ready.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
there is literally no catcher situation in Boston
except relative contentedness. That was SOOOO last year.
Yup.
I was reeeeeeeeeeeallly concerned about the catcher situation at the start of this year, and even I’m content.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
The Sox ownership
has to do something about the clubhouse because if they don’t it would be like putting lipstick on a pig, and preteniding the fans are complete idiots. If they don’t fix the issues their precious sellout streak will probably end.
by aubatron2011 on Oct 12, 2011 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I think there's a decent chance that the sellout streak will end,
as a result of missing the playoffs 2 years in a row. Sad that it’ll probably be in Fenway’s 100th season.
I think the clubhouse problems are mostly reporter bullshit.
I don't think it will
end because of the lack of playoffs. I just think that will deminish the amount of Pink Hat fans. If they don’t fix the clubhouse, the true fans will revolt. Curt Schilling said that some of the players will get booed louder than any Yankee ever would. I agree with him and I think the owners know that too.
by aubatron2011 on Oct 12, 2011 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I just think those clubhouse problems are probably absurdly overblown
and not such a huge problem. Had we made the playoffs, even just barely, we wouldn’t have heard any of this crap.
The amount of this crap we have and will hear
Is directly proportional to how far into the playoffs we went.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Oct 12, 2011 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Inversely proportional?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I totally agree with you about that
but I just think this stuff came as a way for the Sox management to allow Ben Cherington to look like the knight in shining armor coming to fix the Sox at “crossroad” moment. I think there are going to be some unpopular moves with the fans, but if the Owners say “We are just getting a problem out of the clubhouse.” The fans would be a little placated in the fact that they think the “problems” are out of the clubhouse, and they are going to be choir boys from now on.
by aubatron2011 on Oct 12, 2011 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the streak will be fine for at least another year or two.
Even though they have one of the highest price points for tickets, it is still far below what fans will pay and they know that. They keep it low because they know that it allows for a robust secondary market and the risk of lost ticket sales will fall on the re-sellers, not the team.
There was estimates a year or so ago of up to 30% of tickets are bought, or resold in the secondary market. A reseller like StubHub or Ace ticket can afford to take the risk of not selling a few hundred tickets because they make good commission. And they do have some games when the weather is bad where they have “hundreds of hundreds” of unsold tickets. So my point is, that even if the resellers saw their demand fall, it would most likely take additional time for them to realize enough of a loss as to NOT buy up as many tickets as they can.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 12, 2011 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Slight correction
I shouldn’t say they keep it low BECAUSE of the secondary market, as that is hard to say. If asked, they’ll say that they can’t cut out the secondary market very well without raising ticket prices and they don’t want to do that to fans.
Which, to be honest is not what I believe. The team does get part of the additional money from StubHub and Ace ticket sales back. The way it is set up, there IS a ton of risk taken off the Red Sox hands. And really, it’s also about maintaining public perception and being able to “keep the streak alive”.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 12, 2011 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Sigh
Thank you Theo for all the good times. Now, who can you give us for Lackey? What if we throw in Crawford?
Seriously I will miss Theo. But however scary it is to make a change, sometimes it’s the best thing. Let’s hope this is the case here.
Thanks Tito for 04 and 07.
by Fenway302 on Oct 12, 2011 6:36 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Why does it suck?
Theo has done an awful job for sometime now
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Because thanks to him
We’ve been given a green flag to act like entitled little twerps the last couple of years.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Kinda sick of this self loathing act
by Sean O on Oct 13, 2011 8:20 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes, shame on him for assembling a team that going into the final stretch of the season
Was on pace for about 100 wins. And a team that lost about 10 wins to injury last year.
He’s put the team in place in terms of talent, routinely. The attitude, execution and injury issue is separate and of debatable fault on him.
He’s been a good GM. His bad moves have rarely ever sunk us.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
but his bad moves have sunk us!
the contracts given out are going to hurt us for years.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
If Crawford and Lackey have "sunk" us
Then our core of Lester, Buchholz, Pedroia, Youk, Adrian, Bard, Ellsbury, and Salty isn’t as good as we thought they were to begin with.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
You're making an assumption.
As it stands, we are not sunk because of his moves. He’s certainly issued some larger contracts lately, but none of his previous big contracts have limited the team, I don’t expect these will either.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
No, let's try and get an answer now
Do you think the core has been overrated? By most measures those players are incredibly talented. Has two of our biggest contracts sunk the other 23 members?
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he has done a nice job with position players
and an awful job with both starting pitchers and the bullpen for years now.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
So you think Buchholz and Lester aren't as good as some people think they are?
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it takes 5, not 2
and no, I do not think Lester is the ace many do.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Beckett is wildly inconsistent, I'll grant you that
But he’s had several good years with the Sox.
Lackey and Matzuzaka I’ll give you. So that’s, what, 2 and a half out of 5? AND he did a good job with position players? Sounds like a not awful GM to me.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
His arguement is that
lately Theo has not been great. I don’t necessarily agree with it but I believe that is his argument. Sandy, correct me if I am wrong.
He didn't even say Theo wasn't great
He said he was awful
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
That is a tough one.
He certainly has the potential. And he has certainly pitched like it at times. But I think this September does create a bit of doubt. Although he did pitch pretty well in the last game of the season.
Huh
and no, I do not think Lester is the ace many do
Man, last year you were writing this:
WTF happened? :)
Twitter | "Almost every organization has a guy like Papelbon or Lester" - Dave Cameron 12/29/2005
Feels like a political debate
It is actually OK to change an opinion when presented with new information. This year was his worst year as a starter since he became a full part of the rotation in 2008 and it seemed that in September when we really needed him he wasn’t here, posting a 5.40 ERA over the last month. That is what I think changed gizmo’s mind.
I however believe he is a great ace. I’m not going to let 31 innings of 5.40 ERA when the entire team was in the pits undo what he accomplished from 08-10, 3.29 ERA ball over 621 innings of work. That’s incredible.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Bravo,
And CC should bounce back and be a major asset. This remains a great team with, perhaps, something to prove. Theo did an amazing job, especially removing hindsight from the equation. This site ought not to engage in finger pointing. Below standard and too much like mainstream media.
by GerryT on Oct 12, 2011 8:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah?
Beltre on a 1 year deal, Alfredo Aceves picked up, traded for Salty, had two very good drafts in the past two years, acquired Bedard for the stretch run, traded 3 top prospects for Adrian Gonzalez.
And “awful” GM would be lucky to do that kind of stuff.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions
A good GM would not allow what happened in September to happen.
he had his eye on leaving starting in mid August.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
There's no proof of that
C’mon now. You can do better than that.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I can prove the team had the worst collapse in MLB history
under his watch.
Yes indeed.
I can prove he is now gone to Chicago and never once denied interest starting in mid August.
Yes indeed
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
"Yes Indeed"?
Really? His team did have the worst collapse in MLB history (which they wouldn’t even had had an opportunity to do if they weren’t playing so well beforehand, but I digress) but it’s way more than his fault.
Has anyone asked him point blank if his interest started in mid-August and he failed to deny that question? Because if not, that doesn’t prove anything.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
The facts are the facts
this team collapsed under his leadership.
He is not a great GM anymore.
He will be exposed in Chicago
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Your definition of Facts doesn't really line up with mine I guess
You’re connecting a bunch of random points and creating a narrative out of it that fits what you want it to fit.
The only facts you’ve stated are that Theo was the GM during the September collapse and that he’ll now be the GM of the Cubs.
No offense, but everything else you’ve presented is either hearsay or pure fiction thought up on your part.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably because your definition of facts
Is the right one.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 12, 2011 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
This isn't a "Because of... Therefore" situation.
As much as you may want it to be. GMs ARE NOT sources of leadership for the team. That’s what the coaches and players are for. Theo builds the team, augments it how he can and let’s the rest play out. GMs are not the type that go into the clubhouse and give impassioned speeches. They just don’t no matter what romantic vision you have of them.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Theo was writing lineups in September
was he not
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
and yes Theo did go into the clubhouse in April and give a speech
so that is not correct
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Yes, and if I remember right, they lost the next few games
I don’t think “motivating your players” is a high priority on most GM’s list
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
just pointing out, he did indeed give a speech
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
And giving a speech in September likely wouldn't have helped either
So tell me, what could he have done in September that would have jumpstarted this team?
They had the talent and the potential to go into the playoffs.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously? In September?
No way any self-respecting GM does that.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
couldnt have been worse
if Theo knew tito had lost the team, shoulda made the move
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
No, he shouldn't have
Tito is a man who has had the clubhouse for how many seasons in the past? And you dump him with half a month left to go after he had been leading the team to an almost guaranteed playoff spot?
I stand by my statement. I don’t think any GM you would consider not awful would have done that to Tito.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
i get it
fire tito then we dont have to wait until the last game to find out we wont be in the playoffs, help speed up the healing process, smart idea!
by leftcoastsoxfan on Oct 12, 2011 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
What could he have done in September?
Chided them?
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Upbraided them, even...
Tampa Bay Rays Championships: Still Zero
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Oct 12, 2011 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
He'd be all up in their business
and quite possibly their grill.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 12, 2011 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Judging by the latest stories...
… I bet they had some kick-ass stuff grilling.
Tampa Bay Rays Championships: Still Zero
"Playoffs?!? Don't talk about playoffs! Are you kidding me? I just hope we can win a game!"
- Jim Mora, seeing through space and time to describe the 2011 Boston Red Sox
by nuthinboutnuthin on Oct 13, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
He did a good job of turning around the franchise
but I guess the job got too stagnant for him. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he is successful in Chicago
So long Theo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG6b3V2MNxQ
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
Thanks for all of the good work.
Two World Series championships and one game away from two other ones in 2003 and 2008 (potentially) is a pretty good job in my book.
I wonder who will win a WS first
Ben
or
Theo
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I vote for Buchanan.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 12, 2011 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Woooo
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Oct 12, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I Don't Care What Ben Says...
But yes. Hell yes. Ben you have my vote. :-P
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Adios Theo
Thanks for all you’ve given the Red Sox over the years. Good luck in Chicago, unless you play us, in which case, I wish the mighty curse of Beltre’s knee upon you.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Oct 12, 2011 7:39 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Theo Epstein will forever be a hero in Boston and my mind.
Best of luck in Chicago and hopefully all Boston Fans will be grateful for your accomplishments, commitment, and memories you’ve delivered to this fanbase and team.
"Hating the (New York) Yankees is as American as pizza pie, unwed mothers, and cheating on your income tax"
I'm back, that's all, formerly known as Sox-Inda-South!
What have you done for me lately Theo?
Besides run from the mess you have created.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Lately?
Won 2 world series. Have you no sense of gratitude?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
By "lately" I think he meant since September
Since that’s the only thing some people are going to remember.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
In baseball you should be judged on who you are, not who you were.
unless you are retired.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
And who he was is a guy who put together one of the most overwhelming world series favorites in recent memory.
And that is his job. His job isn’t to manage the players after he signs them, that’s up to the coaching staff. I can’t hold it against him that Youk became a sourpuss years after his extension or that Lester, who Francona repeatedly referred to as a son he never had, stopped listening. A lot of what happened isn’t on Theo.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Rogue you get too worked up over everything, seriously.
I agree Tito and the coaches also share blame, but to give Theo a free pass is insane. I believe he is not as good of a GM as he once was.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
We're losing arguably the best GM we've had in a while
Getting a bit worked up over it is understandable to me.
There’s “giving him a free pass” and then there’s actively cheering him leaving.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it's time for change, yes so I'm glad to see it end
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Even IF you think it's a time for a change, and I don't necessarily disagree with that...
You’re also going around the thread saying how he’s an awful GM and he’s sunk the team with two contracts.
You’ve got a lot of opinions and not a lot of facts.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
the facts are the collpase and he is running
my opinion is that he is no longer a great GM, and that the contracts given out will really hurt the team going forward.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
For all we know he feels like he's being forced out
“Running” is an opinion, not a fact.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
he told the team he was not coming back after net season
in an effort to leverage his way out of Boston now
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I've seen reports of the first part
The second is speculation.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Which negates fact.
And if he knew he was leaving after last season, this is merely ‘the plan’ in stead of ‘running’ as you label it. If he planned to leave and he won a WS this year and left, would he still be running? Running… is far from fact.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
he is running from a mess he created
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
If by "created" you mean drafted guys like Pedroia, Bard, Ellsbury, Lowrie, Buchholz, and others
And traded for Gonzalez and Salty, and extended Beckett, and signed Scutaro…
Then yeah, he absolutely “created” this mess of a team of no-talent hacks.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
No, it's not
An overpay? Sure, I’ll give you that, and likely to not end well? Okay, but you can say that about any FA signing, which Beckett essentially was.
Lots of GM’s would have given him that extension.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
but yet the reasons most give
for him not being tradeable is the contract.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Not by me
After this season, his contract probably is tradeable.
Of course now you have 10-5 rights to deal with.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure
But because the most valuable year of it has already gone by.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
But when you think he decided to leave
This time last year. There was no mess. How could he run from something that hadn’t occurred yet?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
As long as you admit the second part is speculation, I'm okay with it.
I mean, I think it’s based on hearsay and not really as grounded in “fact” as you think it is, but that hasn’t stopped people in the past from presenting not really smart opinions.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Says the man
Who began THREE first posts on this page chiding him for what has he done lately. You WANT someone to disagree with you, you did it in just about every game thread too during September with different phrasings of “this team has no heart”. You want people to get worked up over the generalizations and hard edge posts you repeat over and over.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
by Rogue Nine on Oct 12, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
bullshit
I speak my mind on how I feel. You are just pissy because you from time to time shoot off your mouth with the opposite of what I say, and are usually wrong.
And that I kicked your ass in fantasy.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
You speak your mind over and over unsolicited like a child does for attention until someone reacts.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
That's not true
and if you really think that you are a stupid shit, because you respond MORE THAN ANYONE.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
You start with “Why does it suck? Theo has been awful for some time now.” That’s your opinion and I’m happy to debate it.
But then you followed it up with
“Who wins first, Theo or Ben”
And then ’What have you done for me lately?"
That’s elementary attention whoredom, I’m all too happy to give a response each time because I like debate. If you’re fishing for me, you’ve got me.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
The second question is absolutely valid Rogue
I understand the part you don’t like about what have you done for me lately being a little silly but thats mostly just being a pissed off fan.
The who wins first cherington or theo question is a good one.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Is it?
A good one, I mean.
My guess? Cherington, but only because he’s starting from a much better place than Theo is.
Although Theo’s in a much easier division that’s winnable.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
What?
You do realize I’m saying Theo is leaving Cherington a pretty good team, that offsets any degree of being in a more winnable division Theo will have, don’t you?
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not a slam dunk, so its a fair question
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I guess so
But not a terribly interesting one to me.
What point does it serve?
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Because I'm curious the state of mind of Red Sox fans
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Are you?
You seem pretty set in your opinions to me.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
And that is precisely the problem
You’re a person, gizmosandy. People are wrong. Each one of them. A lot of the time.
As Socrates said, the wise are the ones that recognize they know nothing.
Opinions are often reactionary and emotionally charged. One must always be open to the fact that they can be (and often are) wrong.
This goes for me, you, Marc, Rogue…all of us. Being set in your opinions is fallacious and is a poor way to look at the world. Always be willing to recognize your faults and faulty logic. Only then can you actually learn.
/pretension.
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Oct 12, 2011 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
But my way is the only way.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Seriously?
I admit I don’t hang out in the gamethreads so I don’t know any better.
Are you serious here or joking?
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
The part that is joking is fine
The part that isn’t….I dunno what that is. Not good.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm gonna be a dick and quote myself here.
“Anything to protect your ego, I suppose.”
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Oct 12, 2011 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
allow me to pique your curiosity...
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUCADHFJADBGKJSBDLVIHABLFDVHJBADHLABLDFHVABLEY ABLERHIVBA;EFHBV ;ADFBVADFGAK.
by leftcoastsoxfan on Oct 12, 2011 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
and for the record, what I said in September was right
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Interesting you should tell someone else they get too worked up
When every “reason” you have of Theo being a bad GM has been a shortsighted response to a one-month stretch of bad games.
There’s really nothing to add to this discussion, everyone else has sufficiently proven why your view of Theo as a bad GM is wrong.
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Oct 12, 2011 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
The man's record in free agency
is awful! There is a reason outrage is not breaking out over Theo leaving.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I'd like to see his FA record stacked up against the record of other big payroll GM's
You should look into that.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
"too lazy, doesn't help prove my point so screw it"
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Oct 12, 2011 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
The Duke of silver
internet argument champion
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Well, he seems to be right
So make all the snide comments you want to deflect, deflect, deflect
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Anything to protect your ego, I suppose.
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Oct 12, 2011 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Or, hey, you could actually look into that
This is baseball, 29 other teams, several of them with larger payrolls. That Mauer extension doesn’t look too great right about now, does it?
A-Rod’s fallin’ apart. Werth off to a terrible start. Etc. Etc. Point is most FA contracts seem to end up looking bad. Blaming Theo for that trend is disingenuous.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions
no accountability
the age we live in
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Most everyone's record in free agency is awful
That’s why guys like AA are going out and saying they intend to NOT spend big on FA, even after their owner verbally commits to an in-contention payroll of $120 million when that contention happens.
Blaming Theo on guys suddenly not performing is just foolish. You argue for accountability?
HOW ABOUT THE PLAYERS?
Theo assembled a team, through drafting, trading, and free agency, of incredibly talented players that stopped performing. That’s on them, not on Theo.
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Oct 12, 2011 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
when I said the palyers quit
I was told I was wrong then too
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
A broken clock is right twice a day...
Or so the saying goes
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
An opinion presented as fact
That turns out true, doesn’t make you right.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
correlation does not equal causation
Hi ho, Duke!
by The Duke of Silver on Oct 12, 2011 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
And free agency
Is not by any means the only way to judge a GM. There is also drafting, farm development, trading. Free agency is only once facet, and statistically I would have to imagine the department that the vast majority of GMs are not good at, it’s inefficient by nature, you’re essentially paying players equal value to start and then a couple years of declining production.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Judged? By whom?
By who you are not what you were? DonI hear the ridiculous Harvard MBA philosophy? Who, then, are all the players who missed the end of the season to injuries and surgeries. Do YOU judge them failures until they are back and pleasing your sense of what is good? How about Paps and his final game? How should he be ‘judged’? Doesn’t the concept of judging someone ring a little righteous.
by GerryT on Oct 12, 2011 8:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He traded for Jason Bay for peanuts, got very good production, then let him go elsewhere at just the right time.
He made an excellent mid-season deal for Victor Martinez and, again, let him go seeing as his Catcher skills would be diminishing over the next contract (already had Papi for DH).
Drafts have been Excellent.
Traded for Adrian Gonzales. Sure, we lost good prospects, but they really weren’t that close to sure-things.
Manny was "peanuts"?
The guy got 4 NL MVP votes for based on 2 months after the trade.
If Theo has done well in letting players leave at the right times, he’s done equally poorly in signing other team’s free agents at the wrong time.
I’m not sure why GMs get so much credit for drafts, since so many other people are involved, but the 2007 and 2009 drafts were pretty awful.
The way I see it, a GM’s primary role is negotiating contracts and trades. Theo’s record with contract negotiations has been spotty at best, as many times he has seemingly bid against no one and paid far more than necessary (Matsuzaka, Lugo, Drew, Lackey, Crawford…). His trades have not been as bad, but they’ve mostly been pretty equal. Overall, he hasn’t impressed, and most of his best work was done 7 or 8 years ago.
Manny was leaving anyway, they got an extra year of Bay out of him
GM’s get credit for drafts because they have various levels of input into them. Theo has personally gone out and seen several of our past draft picks, and he’s in charge for hiring/firing/promoting the scouting and development staff, so their success is often his success.
Also, I can’t count the 2009 draft as awful. It’s way too early for that. Brandon Jacobs or Miles Head alone could prove that draft worth it, plus you could see contributions from guys like Wilson and Hassan some time soon.
by South Coast Ghost on Oct 12, 2011 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
The guys defending Theo are the same ones who defended this team in September
when the team was being accused of having no heart and quitting.
The facts have now come out and turns out the team was a mess inside the clubhouse.
A collective group of quitters and players with no heart.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Yeah sure, the players quit. Fine. You were right, congratulations you were the guy prognosticating the worst collapse in baseball history.
You prize? I have no cookies to hand out.
Epstein has done so much for this club, if you can’t be thankful for our first world series in almost a century, and then another a couple years later, well, it says a lot.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Plenty thankful for that
but plenty upset at the rubbish I had to sit through in September and the fact he is running from the mess.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
And again.
How much of the mess is his fault? If he picked up another pitcher in July it wouldn’t have changed the clubhouse mess at all. Sounds like some of the problem players were ones who had been here for a while. Should Theo be chided because several years into deals these players had a sudden attitude adjustment?
Running sure, blame him for that, but you can’t blame September on him.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I have a hard time believing these issues just started.
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Mark Kotsay doing what Mark Kotsay does in LCS's
Sucking
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
I didn’t read this whole thread so sorry if this was already tossed out there, but, Andrew Freidman?
In Lax We Trust - Official Pro Lacrosse Blog of SBN
Follow me on Twitter - In Lax We Trust
no chance
It’s Ben Cherington’s job
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
My guess is
That Tampa is going to give him some piece of ownership to entice him to stay at some point. I know he has an excellent relationship with the ownership and manager, and I think that he has gone for what…six years without an actual contract is testament to his being comfortable there. He has incredible autonomy and is virtually never second-guessed by the owner.
He’s a Houston boy and I know Crane wants to bring him home as the Houston Astros front office leader, and he could very well offer some sort of ownership stake as well. Friedman is one of the few front office executives who are probably worth it. I just can’t see him going anywhere this year.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 12, 2011 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd like to have him
But my gut says he stays put, ownership has to know he the best thing they have going for them. Depends on whether Andy aspires to build a WS champ from the dregs of baseball payroll as he’s nearly done already, or take a largely complete team and tinker with it. I think Theo is going because he likes challenges, what is more challenging than taking his favorite team that hasn’t won in 86 years to a WS? Taking a team that hasn’t won in an even longer time. If Andy is the same way, he may just opt to stay.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Nope, Sadly.
I’d love to see him (and Maddon), but no chance. Besides, if I were him, I wouldn’t leave. After going to my best friend’s wedding there this past March, I didn’t want to come back. :-)
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
I do have a question
why has Cherington not been hired as a GM anywhere else if he is good?
Long time working @ Fenway
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
Perhaps he's way too loyal to Boston?
(or maybe he sucks)
by Anthony Emerson on Oct 12, 2011 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm going with loyalty
He’s a New Englander, I would have to imagine this is his dream job. He certainly isn’t old either, 37. He might just be getting ripe now. MLBTR did a piece on him in August as a GM candidate.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
He may have been offered to
interview for a GM position, but the Sox may have denied permission. Or maybe they had promised him the Sox job after Theo left.
by aubatron2011 on Oct 12, 2011 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I read that he has interviewed for GM positions before
But I couldn’t find out for which clubs. And of course, if you try to Google “Ben Cherington GM interviews”, it is sort of flooded with recent items.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 12, 2011 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for the memories, Theo.
But I guess it’s time. I’m comfortable with Cherrington taking over. Good luck on the South Side.
by Anthony Emerson on Oct 12, 2011 8:50 PM EDT reply actions
Yes and I think his biggest strength was
enacting a new system in Boston, and I suspect he’ll bring the Cubs more success than they’ve had lately, and probably will be more useful to them than he would be to us here.
The simple fact of the matter is that Theo had run his course in Beantown.
It’s not bad for Theo. It’s not bad for the Red Sox.
I’m glad he’s gone. Not because I dislike him, but because it’s time to squirt some Febreeze around the joint. Maybe sprinkle some CarpetFresh.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
Mr. Clean
And throw in the Pine-Sol lady for good measure.
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Kotsay hits a HR
where were those in 2008
The 2011 Over the Monster Gedman League Fantasy Baseball Champion
So Long And Thanks For The Memories
Bad decisions lately, yes, but thanks for helping to develop the farm system you did Theo and thanks for helping in those two WS titles.
(Sorry Sandy, he’s no Omar Minaya…you have friends that are Mets fans? They would have given up their left arm, nut, leg, insert appendage here to have Theo instead).
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
And On a Side Note
Don’t think for a moment, that the Cubs WON’T get extra attention from New Englanders who are die-hard Red Sox fans yet curious about what Theo does.
And that’ll help their ratings no?
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
The Artist Formerly Known as PacoL250
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Well, I sincerely hope Theo can lead the Cubs back to the World Series
and when they get there I hope the Red Sox are there to beat them in seven games on account of a few key fluke plays. Am I a bad person?
you are a sane one
"I don't put any foreign substances on the baseball. Everything I use is from the good old U.S.A."
JVSM
Pedroya Lova
by Dustin's #1 Fan on Oct 13, 2011 3:53 AM EDT up reply actions
A sane bad person.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
OTM | Silver Seven
I know all of this sucks
But i think we are going to be ok. We were labeled the best redsox team ever due to the fact we had a shit ton of talent. The talent hasnt gone anywhere. And theres no way in hell Crawford plays that bad again. As a 49ers fan I have seen the proof a new coach can have on a team with talent. Maybe we just need the right manager to pull the right strings and next year will be the year we all expected this year to be. I have faith. GO SOX!
And I thought I was the only person that was a Red Sox and Niner fan.
I feel like I’ve found a brother.
by Florida Johnny on Oct 13, 2011 3:18 AM EDT up reply actions
General Thoughts on The Collapse, Francona, and Now Epstein's Departure
- It is unfortunate but very understandable that given the September performance the Scarlet Letter is slowly morphing into the stylized “B” (Boston, Beer, Bard, Buchholz’s back..). In the midst of all the finger-pointing and drama, I’d just like to throw out there that to counterbalance all the negative press, there were some really unexpected and enjoyable performances this season. The wheels did fall off for Albers and Miller, players I did not expect much of anything from at all, but both did contribute positively for a stretch and I had fun watching them.
- I think I recall reading here that the sole responsibility of September rests with the players. I agree with this. The team was the one to beat on paper- thus, at least in the spring, the GM’s job was done. The manager does some procedural things and can offer advice, but the true motivation has to come from within if any player wishes to have an enduring career.
- Regarding Epstein, I cannot form a strong opinion one way or the other given the complexity of the job and the organization. For one, the GM Trade profile I found on mlbtraderumors.com seems to only go until 2009. Second, while there are decisions he’s made that I have disagreed with at the time, the full context of the decision is never truly revealed.
Example: There are those of you who may recognize my username most from my objection to paying twice for A-Gon, when the upcoming FA class would potentially include A-Gon, Fielder, and Pujols, and given the depth of the offense, the resources could have been allocated to other areas of need (pitching and catching depth).
Shortly after A-Gon, we all know Carl Crawford was the next big splash. Then of course there were the “We Are All In” commercials. Is it conceivable that after the 2010 season ownership issued a hard mandate for Epstein to make big, shiny acqusitions, even if they perhaps went against his philosophy for the long-term success of the organization? Could there have been a Steinbrenner-esque mandate to make headlines and expectations, or else? I have no idea. Without being a fly on the wall in the office, I can’t whole-heartedly commit to saying “Epstein’s a bum, good riddance” for the way he’s done his job. I know that at one point or another most of us have had our bosses come in and insist we do something at work their way, and sometimes you just have to shut them up.
Every GM makes good and bad moves. I’d really enjoy reading a fanpost, article, etc. that evaluates the GM activity of everyone (GM) in the game over say the past five years. If we are good enough to demand hard data to evaluate the players, we should also do the same regarding the GMs. Otherwise it becomes a pissing contest of who’s made the biggest single mistake of the year- Reagins taking on Vernon Wells, or the Washington Gm who gave Werth that contract, Cashmand and A-Rod’s extension, Theo and Lackey… there’s a lot of expensive mistakes to go around.
Offhand I disagreed with shipping out Justin Masterson, signing Smoltz, Cameron, and trading for an extra year of A-Gon. But for each of these, he’s taken a flier on some players and given the information at hand, they were worth a shot- Penny, Hermida, Miller, Salty, RamRam, Okajima… if I’m going to judge the man, I’d like to be able to quantify his success/failure rate and stack it against his peers.
by Christopher B on Oct 13, 2011 1:43 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Best post in this whole thread
Thank you for coming with some sanity.
I didn't like the old one very much. I didn't see the ball there very well. - Julio Lugo on the old Yankees Stadium.
I'm finding myself increasingly madder and madder at the players.
The owners, Theo, Tito, they’ve all said their parts to the story and in the case of Theo and Tito have ridden off into the sunset for greener pastures. When the hell are the players going to issue their apologies? When is the “captain” going to step forward and take some responsibility instead of yelling at a reporter that called him (I’d yell too, but he needs to say something). An apology won’t fix what they did, but it would at least be a sign that they gave a crap about the fans that cheered them on all year and then pulled their hair out and developed drinking problems over the last month of the season. These guys had no problem finding a microphone or camera over the season and I’m certain they’d have no problem wrestling one up now if they wanted one, where the hell are they?
/rant
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
well Pedroia's with his family in Cabo talking to WEEI
and Papi’s on ESPN bitchin’ and moanin’—I just fanposted about that. Papelbon gave a good interview to Rob Bradford with enough material to fill two articles. The funny thing is that both Pedroia and Ortiz gave their interviews yesterday and only in the process of the interview did they learn, from their interviewers, that Theo had left the team for Chicago—so we got to witness both of their live reactions. I think most of the players are in escape mode right now, attending to their families and rescuing their minds. They are not following what is going down in Boston.
I may be in the minority on this one but I think
that its time to say goodbye to the “old guard” and move on. If I’m GM I look at all the players on the wrong side of 30 that are not in my “core” and I look at what I can do to replace them with younger/cheaper models.
I say goodbye to Paps, Ortiz, Wake, Tek, Scutaro, Drew
Waive Dice-K (unless you are getting insurance money – then hold onto him for that)
I look at what I can get for Youk, Beckett, et al
I build around the following: Buchholz, Lester, Pedroia, Gonzalez, Crawford, Bard, Ellsbury, Lavarnway.
I find bargain FAs that play their roles very well but do not break the bank (like Aceves this year)
Sure this might mean a down year in the 88-90 win range – but heck that’s what happened this year anyway.
I reload for 2013/2014 when Middlebrooks, Brentz, Ranaudo, Wilson types might be ready.
So this, officially speaking, sucks.
Thanks, you just validated my thought pattern.
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
Herreshoff.info -- The most awesome website since the invention of the internet.
You can say that again.
(Sorry, couldn’t resist.) Feel free to throw tomatoes (or money) at me.
by The Name is Dalton on Oct 14, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
So this, officially speaking, sucks.
Thanks, you just validated my thought pattern.
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
Herreshoff.info -- The most awesome website since the invention of the internet.
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