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The Red Sox's Master Plan Is In Motion

BOSTON - SEPTEMBER 08:  Lars Anderson #44  of the Boston Red Sox heads for first base after he hit his first MLB hit against the Tampa Bay Rays on September 8 2010 at Fenway Park in Boston Massachusetts.  (Photo by Elsa/Getty Images)

Maybe this is all the perfect plan.

Maybe what is happening in Fenway Park right now is exactly what the Red Sox planned for. Maybe the blowouts, the crazy games, the heartbreaking loses is precisely what the Sox want to be doing right now. Maybe the torture us Red Sox fans are tredging through is how this master plan was all envisioned from the getgo.

And maybe all of this is what will make this team great in 2011.

Star-divide

In Monday night's game against the Rays, the Red Sox sent out a less-than-impressive lineup. It featured four rookies: Daniel Nava, Ryan Kalish, Yamaico Navarro and, finally, the Major League debut of Lars Anderson.

Four rookies in the Red Sox's starting lineup? When is the last time you've seen that outside of a game that took place in Fort Myers, Fla.?

The rookies combined to go 3 for 13 with five runs scored, five RBI, three walks and five strikeouts. Despite Ryan Kalish's grand slam contributing to most of that, it wasn't a bad day for the Sox's crew of misfits. They're getting their hacks in, discovering what it's like to try to hit a Major League pitcher and just living the big leaguer life day in and day out.

Exactly.

The Red Sox aren't in contention anymore. Forget about it if you still are holding out, because it just won't happen. The Red Sox have realized this, too, and that's why these rookies are playing. They aren't playing because Theo Epstein and Terry Francona think they're the key to win games. They're playing so they can become comfortable in the big leagues so that once 2011 rolls around, they're not rookies anymore. The understand, they have knowledge, they're capable.

That is the Red Sox's master plan.

I hate to bring out the "B" word -- but yes, this was supposed to be a "bridge" year. What is better for a bridge year then to finish it by acclimating most of your young talent that could seriously contribute in 2011? This season is done. There will be no playoffs for Boston, but it doesn't mean it's not important. It's very important. It's important for the Red Sox and the young players to just get ready.

If the Red Sox wanted to make a hard push in 2011, they were going to need some of their young talent to step up. The front office knew that no one would be ready to contribute to a large chunk of 2010, but it didn't mean they couldn't get their bumps and bruises in. What's better: throwing your fringe-level youngsters into spring training, hoping they can pick it up? Or getting all your players at least  a month of solid playing time the year before? This one is a no brainer.

And hey, it worked for Dustin Pedroia.

In 2006, the Red Sox sat 6.5 games back in the AL East on Aug. 22. On that day they called up a 22-year-old second baseman by the name of Dustin Pedroia ... and he sucked. Pedroia got his licks in, but didn't impress by any means. He played mostly every game in September and finished with a .191 batting average and a .561 OPS.

But the key to all this is that he played, and he got used to the MLB. He didn't light the world on fire, but he didn't have to. He just played and that's what the Sox needed. And, pretty much ever since, Pedroia has been the best Red Sox on the field on any given day.

The Red Sox could afford to have a .191 hitter at second base because they had nothing left. No playoffs, no nothing. So get the rookie ready and hope he's ready to be the every day second baseman come 2007. Turns out, he was.

The strategy also worked for David Murphy. Remember that guy? The Sox called him up on Sept. 2 and he played a large chunk of the month. Success wasn't found by him either, as he batted just .227. He has gone on to be a very solid outfielder for the Rangers.

That brings us to this year and a similar situation. No playoffs and young guys that need to be broken in for 2011. Kalish, Anderson, Navarro, Nava, Josh Reddick, Felix Doubront, Jarrod Saltalamacchia and Michael Bowden are just a few to name. They'll get their at-bats and their innings this September and they'll probably struggle mightily.

But it's exactly what the Red Sox want. Rest Marco Scutaro, he deserves it. Instead, play Navarro and Jed Lowrie. They need it, and the Sox do, too. Give J.D. Drew a night off and we can see Kalish/Reddick/Nava playing right field. Let them get used to Pesky's Pole. Mop up duty? Forget Scott Atchison (as much as we all dearly love him) and give Bowden those innings to chew up and spit out.

It's hard to imagine Theo Epstein sitting in his office last January saying to himself, "Yes. Let's lose a ton so we can have our rookies play in September and be ready for April 2011." I don't think he honestly works that way, but maybe it was in the back of his mind. That's something I wouldn't be surprised about.

Maybe this is the perfect plan. And just maybe this will work out perfectly for the Red Sox in 2011.

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showcasing the young talent

Theo has lots of work to do this offseason. September is definitely a good time to break in the rookies… but I have to wonder if Theo is also showcasing the young talent we have on the farm for possible trades over the winter.

I think it’s safe to assume Kalish isn’t going anywhere… but Nava and Reddick could be playing elsewhere in 2011, just like Randy pointed out with Murphy.

by bottomlinesox on Sep 9, 2010 8:38 AM EDT reply actions  

Getting rid of Reddick, IMO, is a mistake.

I’ve always seen promise in that kid since last years call ups. Honestly, looking at his line in AAA, I would be upset to pass on him… Sure he’s streaky, but man, if he can stay consistent, hes absolutely ridiculous at the dish.

As for Kalish, I like him more than ellsbury…a LOT more.

Lars is a big question mark, but he needs more ABs at the MLB level before we make a verdict.

I’ve made up my mind that Bowden will never be good, and who knows about D Rich, Coello, and Manuel. The only pitcher I’m pretty positive will be damn successful is Felix Doubront, he’s impressed me with his composure and performance in pretty much all his performances.

by RockEmSoxEm on Sep 9, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree on Reddick

He’s a top of the line defender too, even if the bat never fully comes around he’d make a fine defensive sub. I think in July he finally found his swing and he’s kept it up for two months now, just pounding the ball. Naturally he isn’t going to get a lot of walks, but if he can start earning some respect that walk rate will definitely go up.

Lars needs to go back and start a season at AAA. He can start out well but always struggles with a promotion, he didn’t get it together until lately this year. We’ll see how he does without any major changes in his routine at the start of next season.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 9, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm very "Meh" on Reddick

He hasn’t shown a consistent approach that will make him successful in the Bigs. He’s young enough that his approach can mature, but I have to say that Kalish looks a lot more promising.

"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on Sep 9, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually think they're very similiar

Both have consistently dominated in the minors. Reddick’s issues only came after he was called up right from AA last year. He’s always had an issue with adjusting to a new level but so does everyone. He’s been insane in Pawtucket since the end of July.

Kalish similarly dominated every level they put him at. He started hot but is still OPSing under 700, both he and Reddick have been underwhelming with their offense after their promotions, so it’s hard to say either will be better than the other in the end. Both do play good defense too. It’s just an issue of who makes the adjustment faster.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 9, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

the way I see them

if they both progressed equally- Reddick looks like a bit better of a defender and will make more outs at the plate but with more power. They looks like very different, but potentially both very good players to me. I think Kalish probably has a slightly lower ceiling, but is a much safer bet because of his discipline.

by wolf9309 on Sep 9, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Reddick has a higher ceiling but a better chance of being a bust. Kalish has a lower ceiling but his floor is quite higher.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 9, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

The sox may have played a part in that.

He’s been up and down from MLB to AAA like a pogo stick. Was last year’s call up necessary? Was it necessary for us to call him up earlier this year? Not really, he’s a good defender, but if we were going to end up playing Patt, DMC, Cam, and Nava out there then it wasn’t really needed. It was like he started to get it going, would be called up, and then would take a week or two to get back to where he was headed.

"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash

by BoldandBrash on Sep 9, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

This was what I was suspecting

Back when people were making a stink about Bard being replaced by Oki after 10 pitches a few games back. Showcase Oki, if he can show any positive improvement in the last month someone will bite and give up something for him, we won’t get the next Albert Pujols for him but maybe some minor league depth and that honestly, is probably more valuable than Oki anyway.

I will thoroughly enjoy the growing pains of these young players over the next month.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 9, 2010 9:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Yes

Quite honestly, I’m fine with where it is right now. I enjoy seeing these rookies just as much. I look forward to spring trading for some of these position battles, from not only these guys, but maybe some more prospects.

"That place was for diehard sports fans. I only follow my team when they're in the playoffs" - Homer Simpson
Join the Lacrosse community The Lacrosse Blog

by bestbostonsports on Sep 9, 2010 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Spring trading

Freudian slip?
 = P

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 9, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you're going to do crap like that, though

Just don’t pitch Bard. We’re not trading him, his innings are already approaching 70, and all wins do for us is hurt our draft position. Shut him down.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Sep 9, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree there

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 9, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

Put him on ice.

"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.

by SoxDevil on Sep 9, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Maybe bring him out in High Leverage closing situations, just to make sure he can do it but yeah.

by drabidea on Sep 9, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Absolutely,

If he’s not gonna finish the job then why put him in at all?

"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash

by BoldandBrash on Sep 9, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Spending extra money on a bridge year

just never made sense to me. I want it to magically be clear, but I just don’t get it. I know they were trying to be relatively competitive this season, but having Cameron’s corpse and Scutaro’s .700 OPS next year making $14m is insane. I won’t even get into the pure insanity of getting both Lackey and meathead for 5 miserable seasons. At least Belter was a great move.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Sep 9, 2010 3:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Well higher production was expected out of the two of them for $14mil. Not like Theo signed them going “Well fingers crossed guys that Cameron tears his abs and Scoot’s rotator cuff get’s hurt. Would really like to have them out of shape for next season.”

That’s not what happened at all. Cameron came in as a player who the previous years shows still played great defense and still had a good bat and has a tremendous health record as a 37 year old. Anyone can get the injury he did, his age doesn’t predispose him to it. Same with Scoot, he played great for us, relative to other Sox SS’s, earlier this year before he TORE HIS ROTATOR CUFF but continued to play through it like a champ. Lowrie was gone then still, we didn’t really have a better option, hurt Scoot is greater than Patterson at the least.

This team was designed to be VERY competitive this year, if you check my post “What we lost… what we gained” you’ll see that based on offense alone, not even considering our lost defense, the loss of Pedrioa, Youkilis, Cameron and Ellsbury cost us about 7 or 8 wins this year, bringing our expected win total from 97 to 90. Adding defense probably cost another couple games too. And as much as you hate him, Beckett has pitched better than his ERA shows, his xFIP even comes in under 4, having him for a whole season instead of Felix and Wakefield probably cost a win or two. In all this actually WAS a team designed to win close to 100 games, for $170 mil, I’ll take it.

Theo said that “bridge year” didn’t mean a loss of our competitive ability, just that instead of signing a bunch of FA to long term deals, we’d sign a few to short term deals to build towards our organizational youth, which we’ll see a lot of in the next month. Theo built this team to win, and win it would have done.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 9, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

We were never a 100 win team

Every team has injuries. Unless we got insanely lucky, we were going to lose some of our players for a distinct amount of time regardless, because we are old. The injuries cost us some wins, but not 7-10 over what is a realistic expectation, not a perfect scenario.

Cameron is 37, and Scutaro has played 2 full seasons before, because he’s a 34 year old backup player we’re paying $6m a season. It happens.

Beckett simply isn’t getting it done, and while he may not be as bad as he’s been, he’s incredibly injury prone and inconsistent. He’s walking more players and giving up way way more hits.

If we’re going to spend money (and this season makes us the 2nd most expensive failure in American sports history), then we should do so on excellent players, not leftover garbage and good-but-not-great.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Sep 9, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well the bulk of our runs were lost between

Pedrioa, Youk and Ellsbury. Coincidently where we lost a lot of our defense as well. They and their replacements represent well over half of the wins I laid out. Was it so unreasonable to expect them to stay healthy this year?

Cameron was the healthiest 37 year old in baseball. If it happened to Reddick would you say the same thing? No, just a freak injury. Nothing forseeable. Scoot was fine when healthy, his previous experience is irrelevant. He came in and did exactly what was expected of him. The truth is there aren’t a lot of top of the line free agents available anymore, teams are locking them up earlier and earlier. There wasn’t really a better SS available last year, nor a third baseman unless you wanted Figgins, I think that turned out great and unless we signed Holliday to a ridiculous contract like he got, signing a previously very healthy, very productive center fielder was a pretty good idea.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 9, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not really worried about Scutaro/Cameron

They got contracts about in range of their worth…Lackey on the other hand

by BobZupcic on Sep 9, 2010 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

For what it's worth

John Lackey since the all star break:

70 IP, 20 BB, 60 K, 6 HR

So Lackey-like. The Lackey we kinda paid for.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Sep 9, 2010 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Too Lazy To Do the Math

So his ERA since the All-Star Break is what?

by Raj Ghetia on Sep 9, 2010 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

ERA is not a good indicator of performance.

Personally, I’m not really a believer in FIP/xFIP as indicators of past performance, they’re really supposed to be used as predictive stats. But ERA just has too much noise to be reliable.

by ThePanda on Sep 9, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is why I gave you the K/BB/etc.

Fangraphs splits are not quite as diverse as ESPN’s. But if my math doesn’t suck too bad, that’s around a 3.38 FIP.

xFIP is higher, but I can’t say for sure based on the, again, limited splits between ESPN and Fangraphs. Also, I’m not completely in love with xFIP because I think it tries to control too exactly. I think there’s probably some guys who do by their nature give up fewer home runs per fly balls—probably not much better than 9% or worse than 11%, but neutralizing it exactly at 10% is kind of like not giving Jeter credit for about 10 or 20 points of his BABIP.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Sep 9, 2010 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that's exactly right...

but I still prefer xFIP over everything else out there… I just am careful with guys who have outlier HR rates.

by alskor on Sep 10, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lackey freaks out too much

he will make a mistake, and instead of forgetting it and getting down to business

he starts caterwauling around the mound, swinging arms and making faces

and before you know it, a huge inning kills the Sox

saw it several times

that stuff has to end. juvenile

by Frank Malzone on Sep 10, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

But

if we did not spend any money – i.e. allowed our youth to take over positions that veterans are occupying then could you imagine the fan/media outburst?? – Really – what “excellent” players were to be had. Someone had to play SS, someone had to play LF/CF…..

by BobZupcic on Sep 9, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

its a nice thought but

im betting the sox will sign more overpriced injury prone veterans this off-season. And then play those players into the ground, so they can put their young players on a shelf like glass.

by spinz on Sep 9, 2010 6:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Don't see that happening...

Besides, perhaps beyond Beckett and Lackey, did anybody seriously think that Cameron and Scutaro would have the injuries they do? Besides, Scoot’s been playing though his injury and it’ll only be in the off-season that he’ll really heal.

Besides, the FA market this pff-season is supposed to be kind of weak, IIRC. I could be wrong, but off the top of my head, I don’t see anything too exciting this off-season. So what injury prone vets would Theo & Co. sign anyway? Not many they’d want, I’m sure.

by Raj Ghetia on Sep 9, 2010 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Minus a few players...

It’s not a looking all that great. A ton of older players and several okay players. Though this may be one of those off-seasons that several get overpaid, I seriously expect Theo & Co. to do their usual bargain shopping AND actually come away with a few good deals. Depends on the money and length of the deal.

Didn’t know Beltre had a player option; don’t think he’ll stick around though unless he actually likes it here and wants to; though if he does, why wouldn’t he just re-sign a new deal? Though sadly, I don’t see him staying.

by Raj Ghetia on Sep 9, 2010 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Been Thinking the Same For a While

Just like you Randy, I’ve been thinking the same. This is going to be a great time to see the rookies acclimate themselves to the MLB from the MiLB. Not only will they get their hacks in into relatively meaningful games (playing the role of spoiler is great; just imagine if we completely screw up the Rays chances for the Wild Card if they go into a mini-slump thanks to the beating they took last night), and Theo & Co. can turn one or few of them into trade bait if desired.

Plus not to mention showcasing a few other players we already have (Okajima is the perfect example) and possibly trading those. I could see Oki going to the NL for some prospects and hopefully that could turn out to be a win-win. I can see Oki doing well in the NL.

Though for me, the question remains: what about Dice-K? As much as I feel like he’ll still be here next season, my patience is really through with him. Time to trade him if he has a decent rest of the season and good Spring Training next season. IMHO, his refusal (pretty much that’s what it seems like) to stop “nibbling” at the strike zone is pissing many of us off I’m sure. If he was the Texas Rangers, I think Nolan Ryan may have beat his ass for being the pitcher he is.

Oh and on a more positive note, Westy’s headed to the Fall Instructional League. That’s amazing for him and I honestly can’t wait to see him next year.

by Raj Ghetia on Sep 9, 2010 8:44 PM EDT reply actions  

If everyone else does their job, Dice as the 5th won't be a problem.

"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash

by BoldandBrash on Sep 9, 2010 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dice-K Also Needs to Do His Job

As the 5th starter, I’ll say it once and again, I’d rather have Wakefield.

Say what you will about Wake, but I would throw this year out. If he’s consistently in a starting routine, Wakefield can have stretches of being really good. Sure he’ll go into a slump, but that’s all part and parcel with w knuckleball pitcher.

Dice-K goes hot and cold every other start it seems. And for his benefit, I’ll even throw out this season. Still not impressed. His 18-3 season looks more and more like an anomaly the further we get away from it.

The only way Dice-K gets back on track is to have the rest of his starts be spectacular and then have a lights out Spring Training. He needs to realize at this point, the umps aren’t going to give him any calls for pitches that keep nibbling.

by Raj Ghetia on Sep 9, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fuck ESPN

They have branded you’re and everyone else’s minds with this wins BS. Those have very little if any correlation with quality of pitching. As for Dice, he’s always been Dice with some fluctuation. He’s always struck out a good number, walked a lot, and given up a good number of HR’s, so he is what he is and he was what he was: a back of the rotation starter. ERA can swing in one season because of luck combined with good defense. Dice had a little bit of a low BABIP in 08, and probably had good D behind him.

"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash

by BoldandBrash on Sep 9, 2010 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jump to Conclusions Mat

Before we jump to conclusions, I’m the last person in the world to put any stock in the “Wins” stat for pitchers; it’s absolutely BS and I agree with you. I’m just using his record there as an example. He still nibbled that year, though honestly, his low BABIP showed he can pitch if he really puts himself to the task.

I agree that the wins number is a crappy way of measuring a pitcher’s effectiveness; however, there are other factors, such as his inability or refusal even to attack the strike zone as often they want.

by Raj Ghetia on Sep 9, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree that you agree.

I actually doubt he could pound the zone if he wanted to. It could be the Japanese style, but I’m not educated in that area. When he throws a pitch and it ends up 10 feet away from the plate is why I doubt this. He’s worse than Obama with the location of some of his throws.They’re nowhere even near the target. I’ve decided that the guy goes out there with the chance to just lose all of his control.

"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash

by BoldandBrash on Sep 9, 2010 11:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

though honestly, his low BABIP showed he can pitch if he really puts himself to the task.

BABIP isn’t controllable to that extent for a pitcher.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Sep 9, 2010 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dice

We’ve already made the investment and he’s making what, $8 million? Not bad for a pitcher of his caliber. He’s not consistent but he’s better more often than anyone would like to admit.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 9, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dice-redux

Sorry, I will never like this player. He doesn’t challenge batters, he gets injured way too often, as a number 5 pitcher he is not now, not ever, worth 5 million much less 8. His trashing of the pitching coaches last season was enough, that even if he was to recreate his miracle 18 win season I still would want to trade him for 20 bats and a couple of gloves. His ERA is almost .6 above the league average, his HRs given up are high, and even his strikeouts are down. Dice-K is a failure and I’m not sure the Sox could get 20 bats except maybe from Cleveland. And why can’t I log in the usual way huh?

by papoonforpresident on Sep 9, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

His HR's are fine

His carrer HR/9 number is .9 and is .8 this year, which is just fine, Santana’s is .96, Halladay .77, The Big Unit .89. His SO/9 are at about 8, which is about where it always is, he’s lowered his walk rate this year and his hits/9. So far his 2.1 WAR by fangraphs is worth exactly his $8.3 mil salary and has provided more value to the team than we’ve paid him. The man is doing fine. It’s one thing to hate the pitching style but the results are better than people let themselves believe. People perceive that he sucks and then buy into the talk without actually looking at the numbers.

So HRs? Aren’t high.
SOs? Same as always
Failure? Providing more value to the team than getting paid is the opposite of failure.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 9, 2010 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brought his BB/9 down to 4.14...

5th worst amongst starters with >100 IP

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Sep 9, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's found success despite that.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 9, 2010 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Success"

He’s been kinda-sorta average.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Sep 10, 2010 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe betterthanheshouldbe is the word.

But in bursts he can be very good.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 10, 2010 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

For the position he's on on the team, he's done OK.

As an actual player? He’s been kinda-sorta average. He’s a huge disappointment and not a particularly good pitcher. As much as you’d like to write off the $50mm posting fee as investment, it’s impossible to completely separate that cost from Daisuke any more than it is to separate the positive marketing bonus of a John Lackey contract and pre-season ticket sales from his deal.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Sep 10, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Better Than I Would Admit?

Maybe. Honestly, I give him credit when and where it’s do and I will be the first to do so; always am. But with the salary you mentioned, that’s even more of a reason to entertain trade possibilities. At that salary, don’t you think teams would be interested? I’d think so.

by Raj Ghetia on Sep 9, 2010 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who would we replace him with?

FA? maybe. Doubront? Fine, but we would be losing a bullpen piece then. Right now he’s arguably the third best reliever on the team.

"Every night I go to bed thinking about when I’m going to play again. I dream about playing at Fenway."-Ryan Westmoreland
Twitter: @BoldandBrash

by BoldandBrash on Sep 9, 2010 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Uh...what?

Who’s the other side of that argument?

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Sep 9, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, Atch, nevermind.

We should bring him back. Decent long man.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Sep 9, 2010 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Decent most certainly.

And maybe Fox, who we just picked up, may just prove to be a valuable addition. And if I remember correctly, Doubront is projected to become a starter; however, he may turn out to be the new Justin Masterson.

by Raj Ghetia on Sep 9, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we'd struggle to pay a guy who can provide as much value for us at the back of the rotation.

He isn’t an ace. Kiss that dream good bye. But #5? Beats the hell out of Wake. He’s one of the better #5s in the league. Our rotation is incredibly deep. Lester and Buchholz as 1a and 1b, Beckett (who has also pitched better than people will admit) 3, Lackey has had some anomalous loss of control but isn’t bad as #4 and Dice in the rear with #5.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 9, 2010 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup...

He’s really not a bad option at all.

Plus, with all the other possible holes on this team I doubt we make 5th starter an offseason priority.

by alskor on Sep 10, 2010 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's the fact that we're spending

$30+m a season on our #3 and #4 that’s the problem.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Sep 10, 2010 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

It doesn’t really matter where they pitch as long as they provide value. Lackey has been as good as usual this year, I have no idea what is wrong with him but he seems to have lost control. Can he get it back? Who knows, maybe, it seems possible for someone who just seemed to lose it over night. But Lackey was routinely putting up valuable seasons, this year his estimated worth is about $12 million. Not too bad considering the way he’s berated all over the place. Beckett, well has lost half the season, his peripherals show he’s been much better than his ERA suggests. His BABIP is .351, his LOB% is 61 while his K/9 and BB/9 is right about his career norms. His value over the last two seasons combined is about $46 million, he’s routinely been more valuable than he’s been paid.

If Lester and Buchholz were both 30 and pitching this well they would be paid much much more than they are, more than Lackey or Beckett and then those contracts wouldn’t seem so out of line with the rotation number. It’s a much different situation, players get paid more the closer to 30 you are.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 10, 2010 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I put 0 faith in that WARP valuation thing

It’s simply a ridiculous “feature” of fangraphs that should’ve been dumped long ago. The bottom line is, finding someone with a 4.5 ERA isn’t exactly impossible for under $12m, especially when you add another 4 friggin’ years. Hell, in very short duty, Doubront is right around there, and chances are several folks in our system could be only slightly worse than that.

Lester and Buckles aren’t earning what they should, that’s true. But that doesn’t mean we throw stupid money at crap like Lackey/Beckett to make up for it. You underpay your drafted stars, because that’s why you draft in the first place, and otherwise get GOOD players.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Sep 10, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m just saying that this year isn’t representative of Beckett and Lackey’s careers. Yeah, THIS year they aren’t performing up to where they should be. But over the long term they are worth what they’re paid since they both routinely put up 5-6 WAR seasons. Lackey was the top rated FA pitcher last year, we threw money at what we presumed was the best product available. If that isn’t your plan down to a T than I don’t know what is.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 10, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Best of Bad is still Bad

Just because he’s the best of the group doesn’t make it a good investment, nor does it mean he’s legit actually one of the best. My plan is to wait around for the actual best. Yes, the Yankees have more money, but we’re the 2nd richest in American sports. And we haven’t obtained the best 1 or 2 players in baseball at a position in FA since Manny, not even the best 5 or 6 if you exclude the unappreciated Drew.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Sep 10, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

you look at these different parts through too small a lens

just because they haven’t been acquired in free agency (the best players rarely hit free agency…) doesn’t mean the team hasn’t been built solidly all around and doesn’t have some of the top players.

When was the last time the Yankees have acquired one of the top 1 or 2 players in baseball in FA? A-Rod maybe, but he only hit FA because he knew that they would re-sign him for more.
The fact is, guys like Mauer, Pujols, and Hanley just don’t hit the open market that often.

There’s been no need to fill holes in many of the positions, and the other positions, the top 1 or 2 players at the position have not been FA when it would have been applicable.

by wolf9309 on Sep 10, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I never said in baseball

I said at their position. Teix wasn’t quite there, but he was a primo 1B. Fatassia is a top SP performer.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Sep 10, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

well the best in baseball at their position is what I mean

my point is, it doesn’t matter how they’re acquired as long as they’re acquired.

Youk is every bit as good a first baseman as Tex (better offensively the last couple of years, and they’re both considered very good defensively). Pedroia and Lester are prime players, Martinez is one of the best options at catcher. As long as the excellent players are there, I just don’t see why it should matter that they aren’t acquired through free agency.

Sabathia is a very good pitcher, but I don’t think I’d say he is the top 1 or 2 pitchers.

by wolf9309 on Sep 10, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then how many of those have we had

through any form? We passed on teix, fatassia, Lee twice, fatassia during the trades, Santana, Peavy, Halladay, etc. We traded for Victor when he was with a team that rightly didn’t see him as a catcher, which was fortunate and smart.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Sep 10, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

We didn't pass on Teix

Fatassia was going to the MFY too.

And as for Santana, Peavy, and Halladay.

Good and Good

We don’t trade away young talent, and no, we don’t win huge bidding wars with the MFY when the player is determined to end up in NY one way or another.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Sep 11, 2010 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

And how many have we had?

In 2008, Kevin Youkilis was the 4th most valuable 1B, Pedroia the secong MV2B, Ortiz the 4th best DH (by wOBA). Manny and Bay it’s hard to figure out Manny + Bay, but I’m guessing they up there. Beckett and Lester ranked 7 & 8 in AL SP value, and Papelbon was the #2 reliever.

In 2009, again, hard to figure out between Victor/Tek, but Victor was huge. Youk was #4, Pedroia #3, Drew was #4, Bay #3, Lester and Beckett #5 and #7 in the AL.

2010, well, hard to tell with all the injuries, but Youk was only trailing Morneau’s BABIP for much of the season, Pedroia was behind Cano but catching up, Lester is #4 AL, Beltre is #2, and David Ortiz is #1.

So they’ve done pretty well with having some of the best available players. The Yankees, from my cursory glances, didn’t do a ton better. Jeter was #1 last year and Cano this year, but mostly they’ve been right around us overall.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Sep 11, 2010 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

When is the last time any of those sort of guys ever hit free agency? They don’t anymore. Not frequently anyway. Who in the last 5 years would you have rather signed that make sense? It’s a testament to the way the team is run that we haven’t had to sign any of the top players in baseball to major contracts. We didn’t need to sign Pedrioa or Youkilis or Lester or Papelbon, we already had them. You don’t need to sign the best players when you’ve already drafted them. It lets you take risks on Lackeys and Camerons or Beltres and hope they work out.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 10, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

While Fangraphs values can be a bit wonky

There’s a lot of truth to the idea that the price for simply average pitching is way up. And while Lackey and certainly Beckett haven’t fit the bill for what we’re paying them for this year, it’s not insane to be spending $15+ million on a guy providing a 3.8-4.0 ERA, which is about where I think they’ll be next year.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Sep 10, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then, if SP costs are ridiculous

Don’t freaking pay them for mezze-mezze return. We didn’t NEED Lackey this offseason, he was an out-of-the-blue move that, as of now, looks like it’s backfiring. Maybe those peripherals will turn around on an annual basis, but he’s down a full 1.0 in k/bb over last season, and not getting any younger.

If you don’t think paying $15m+ for a good, but not excellent, starting pitcher, what about paying 2(and on a per-year valuation 3) for that amount?

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Sep 10, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd say you just assembled

What should be baseball’s best rotation. And if Beckett was healthy, it would have been. But that’s what they cost! Good pitchers cost good money. There are a few guys that surprise every year, but signing a guy to consistently provide good pitching? It’s gonna cost you. Theo tried and failed with the high risk/high reward method with Smoltz and Penny. It didn’t work and he got berated for it. Lackey is a far more consistent option. The price is ridiculous but if you want to assemble a team it’s what you’ve got to do. Zito, CC, Burnett, Perez, Zambrano, Arroyo these guys set the market and set it high. If you want a product you have to pay for it. You’d be just as pissed if Theo had gone out and paid a lesser pitcher half the money and he still sucked, there is no winning when it comes to handing out contracts. We needed a good pitcher, Lackey was a good pitcher who’s only real question mark was health, not much of a sign available in his stats that he would just lose control like he did this season.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 10, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, I wouldn't be just as pissed

Penny and Smoltz’s massive failure was annoying, but it didn’t hurt us for years. Giving big money to ok-to-good players like Beckett, Lackey and Lowell keep us from getting the really really good players when they come to market.

I’d rather try for the Pennys and Smoltzs in case they work out, and then rely on the youth one way or another when they don’t. Either you see if the kids can produce as they should at MLB, or use them to get the very best pitchers when they actually are available (early July before the deadline, i.e. Fatassia, and Cliff Lee twice).

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Sep 10, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think Lackey or Beckett’s contracts will hurt us for years. Lugo’s hasn’t. Lowell’s hasn’t. Mostly because the very best just doesn’t become available anymore, the best players usually stay put these days with long term deals, if they don’t become available we don’t have to scramble to find money for them. Mauer didn’t go anywhere, A Rod ended up staying put and I suspect Pujols isn’t going anywhere after they got Holliday to sign. Those contracts are more likely to be crippling. In 2017 do you want to pay ARod $20 mil? I know I don’t.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Sep 10, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lugo and Lowell and Beckett and Lackey

(or any combination of bum contracts you gather) don’t individually hurt us, but in the aggregate we’re throwing a lot of money without getting a lot of return.

We cannot have that type of player earning that type of money if we want to compete with NY. They are running circles around us now, especially head-to-head.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Sep 10, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

And 2 years ago they were out of the playoffs.

They’re not running circles around us. In 2009 they had career years out of a good number of guys like we had big years in 2007. In 2010, we’re just injured compared to their old guys performing well past their presumed expiration dates—the reverse was true in 2008.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Sep 10, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

What's the head-to-head since

they got their heads out of their asses mid last year? Do we even have a .250 WP%?

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Sep 10, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then where do you put that money?

We’re talking about a 25-man roster.

The Red Sox have a $170 million payroll.

That’s 6.8 million per player.

We have a number of cost-controlled players under that amount. A SP (Buch), Utility or SS (Lowrie), starting OF (Ellsbury) and bullpen member (Bard) are pretty firmly in place as being “on the team” at a price 6.4 million under that average, so already we have another 25 million to distribute amongst the remaining 21.

Atchison is $400k, Delcarmen is $900k. So we’re at 37 million.

Tek, Oki, Delcarmen, etc. are all well under the figure.

You get the picture.

Could we have spent it on the bullpen? Sure, but looking at it beforehand, is that really smarter? It costs a fair bit to get “good” relievers and they’re less reliable than the starters you have such a complaint with and pitch a third as many innings.

Upgrade from Cameron in the OF? Check the market: you’re going to have to give the same type of long contract to another aging player at best. Get better backups? If they’re a big part of your season, you’ve got trouble as is (and oh, did we ever). Pick your “poison” with the money you have to spend. We didn’t exactly have anyone big to lock up unless you’re going to sign Bard for 8 years or are much higher on Ellsbury than a lot of other people.

I mean, you can say the Sox should put it in their pocket and save it for a rainy day, but they’re going to have more money coming off the books next year, and then the year after, etc. etc. etc. The Sox are certainly relying on having a steady stream of young players to allow them to have that excess cash to spend year after year, but so long as that keeps up and the Sox aren’t looking to return to a $120-140 million payroll, there’s no problem with the Lackey/Beckett signings. There’s only so much talent available on the FA market, and the team budget being independent of draft and IFA budgets, there’s no reason not to spend each and every year as much as they’re allowed.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Sep 10, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess we'll never know

Because the team always cries poor when it comes to a real star player that ends up signing with the Yankees.

If you’re going to sign a mediocre player, it should be because you don’t have a similarly mediocre player on the farm. Then, you sign them for one year, so you’re not stuck with them when the kids on the farm develop.

Cameron was an unfortunate situation, but he doesn’t crack the top 2 dozen of failed theo moves/nonmoves. It’s the Lackey/Beckett/Lowell/soon to be Victor and/or Beltre type that kills me.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Sep 10, 2010 11:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Replace a pair of 4.00-4.20 FIPs and Mike Lowell in 2008 with players available to us.

I’m sorry big time FA don’t want to sign for one year, or prefer the more attractive endorsement and upper-class lifestyle of New York.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Sep 11, 2010 1:31 AM EDT reply actions  

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