Should The Red Sox Make A Move For Cliff Lee?
by Randy Booth on Jun 10, 2010 8:00 AM EDT
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PrintI wrote about the Yankees ending up with Cliff Lee for SBN Boston last night. Fox Sports' Ken Rosenthal is convinced that Lee will wind up a Yankee, either by the trade deadline or as a free agent when the winter rolls around.
But should the Red Sox legitimately be a contender for Lee?
The Red Sox seem stacked in the rotation, despite a couple of those -- mainly the highest paid ones -- not pitching that well. Does that leave any more for Lee?
If the Sox were to pursue Lee at this trade deadline, would that be throwing away the notion that this is a "bridge year"? Trading for Lee now would mean the Red Sox really think they can win the AL East and make a run. Lee, of course, would be a force for years to come (barring the Sox signed him), but making the move now would mean they want to win now.
It would certainly take some prospects to get Lee, but which ones? And if the Sox were to grab Lee -- and NOT sign him -- that means a nice little nudge in the 2011 MLB First Year Player Draft.
So consider this a two-part question:
1) Should the Sox try to trade for and/or sign Cliff Lee?
2) If they should try and trade for Lee, who would you be willing to trade to get him? (At the same time, what would be realistic?)
Go at it, Red Sox fans. Leave your thoughts in the comments and tell other people why they've got a good point and/or why they're crazy.
This will get that sour taste out of our mouths, right?
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Lee does not make me comfortable
I know he’s been great the last two years, but I keep thinking it’s all going to fall apart. He’ll be 32 this off season, the last two years might be the best he ever does. Plus he’s going to command A LOT of money this winter, I’m sure almost $20 mil a years. Unless the Mariners will take crap prospects for him for the rest of the year, I don’t see how the Sox do it.
Throwin my hat in the ring
I don’t really comment very often, but I’ve been thinking about this Lee trade for awhile, and again I’m no expert, but I think if the Sawx could get Lee for a combination of 2 of either (Kalish, Anderson, Reddick, Doubront, or Middlebrooks) and a lesser prospect or two, I would say go for it provided they could get Lee to sign an extension and then I would throw Dice-K somewhere, minors, DFA, and with a rotation of Lester, Lee, Beckett, Lackey, and Clay… I’m happy with that… that’s just my opinion tho
by Knuckles O'hoolihan on Jun 10, 2010 8:34 AM EDT reply actions
Perhaps
Daisuke and prospects could be swapped for Lee w/ an extension, but aren’t Kalish, Anderson and even Reddick needed more in the future than Lee?
That's a valid point
I agree those guys could very well be part of the team’s future, but I’m not sure Lars can crack the everyday major league lineup, let’s say Dice-K, Anderson, Doubront, and a lesser prospect for Lee, you have to pull the trigger on that deal right… I mean it works for the Mariners because there is no way Lee resigns with them and the sawx should do what they can to keep Lee away from the MFY..
by Knuckles O'hoolihan on Jun 10, 2010 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions
After research, Daisuke DOES have a no trade clause. Lars has a very solid chance at being an every day major leaguer, and a pretty good one at that. I don’t mind getting rid of Felix, but mostly because I don’t know if he’s the real deal or not yet.
But it all comes down to this, the Yankees aren’t going to trade for Lee. They value their two catching prospects too much, even if they don’t really have a place for them in the lineup in the foreseeable future. Also, their rotation doesn’t need much help, Hughes, Pettite, CC, Burnett, and Vasquez (who has pulled it together since they benched him a few weeks ago). Why would they trade for him??
And we aren’t going to trade for him either, Why? Because this is the bridge year. This is the team that Theo is going to field for the rest of the year. If he can get a piece or two from here or there he will as long as it doesn’t cost too much. Which is why we still don’t have a solid reliever despite only being able to count on Bard and maybe Paps. This is why Bill Hall, Darnell McDonald and Jeremy Hermida have become household names this year, a solid bench/fill in OF is too expensive to trade for considering only Reddick is ready for the bigs, and even that is a stretch.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
There goes that idea
Well, I guess Dice-k won’t be going anywhere, thanks for clearing that up and schooling me… I just really like C Lee, I like the idea of having another legit lefty in the rotation to battle against those bastids from NY… I’d just rather have him on the team than face him next year when the MFY drop Vasquez and make a play for him, as is being suggested in the media, of course credibility comes into question…
by Knuckles O'hoolihan on Jun 10, 2010 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure Daisuke would veto a trade to Seattle
A pitchers park might be the place for him… Safco has wider strike zones too right?
Exactly
I was thinking the same thing, would Dice-K veto a trade to Seattle ? The M’s have several japanese players and are also big in Japan… again this is all conjecture, but I mean the parts are there to make it work…
by Knuckles O'hoolihan on Jun 10, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
gnick reminded me
Why would Seattle even want Dice-K in the first place? They make the same amount of money, we aren’t going to pay for both of them.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
They're also owned by Nintendo
and have one of the shortest flights to Tokyo.
I would say Japanese players virtually all want to play for the M’s at some point.
Bullpen Banter
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That doesn’t mean that Seattle wants them. It is still a business and not one with much sentiment. It’s a bad business to trade Lee and his $8mil salary to boston for Dice-K and HIS $8mil salary and is significantly not as good as Lee.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Oh, yeah
Hard to imagine anyone wanting Dice K…
I was just saying I dont think his no trade clause would be an issue.
Bullpen Banter
www.bullpenbanter.com
twitter: @alskor
unless what he wants is to win
the sox are a perennial contender. The M’s may contend before his contract is up
He’s a competitor, he wants to win, to the point where he may be hurt but won’t tell anyone (see 2009 fiasco). He knows he isn’t going to win anything worth a damn in Seattle. His best shot is here. Don’t over value Safeco, he would still have to start half his games on the road anyway.
And then there is the front office to consider when trading Dice-K. Trading him away cancels the signal they sent by going out an signing him in the first place. We wanted to make a statement to the international market to say, “We’re the Red Sox, we have excellent programs to get you used to the States and acclimated to professional ball in a way that no other team can and we want you to play for us.” And it’s worked, Tazawa turned down better offers to sign with us and in recent years we’ve pulled a lot of IFAs from all over, most of them also saying that they specifically wanted to play for the Sox because of how we treat our international players. Trading away Dice-K doesn’t really send a good message to them and takes away our recruiting edge in that market. We’re huge in Japan because of Dice-K.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Don't get me wrong
I like Dice-K, I would just like him better if he was on a plane to Seattle, definitely not worth the money he spent to get him, IMHO
by Knuckles O'hoolihan on Jun 10, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Oops
Not “he spent” supposed to read “the sawx spent” soryr bout that
by Knuckles O'hoolihan on Jun 10, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
But again, that money spent.
Wasn’t just for his talent. He’s “only” making about 8 mil a year, the other $50mil went right to his old team. Signing him was a down payment on future IFA talent and the Asian market. I suspect that Dice-K by the end of his time here, will have made more money for the Sox than what they spent on him, since his value to us is much greater than what his play on the field is.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Haha, yeah forgot that point. Who says that Seattle wants to trade one pitcher getting paid $8mil this year for ours who isn’t as good?!
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Daisuke is also signed for 2011 and 2012 at $10mil per.
He would have value. It would take Daisuke plus plus to even talk to Seattle and we don’t even talk unless we are in the thick of it come mid July. Cliff Lee is not going to do any team favors by signing away his free agency with an extention at the trade deadline. He’s going to test the market in the off season. Can you blame him?
Seattle is partly owned by Japanese business men
So, I would say that Dice-K does have some value to a bunch of guys who want to bring more Japanese players to their franchise.
I can see Dice-K ending up someday in Seattle just like I can see several Euro players heading for the Nets now that a Russian owns the team.
In 2011 (I think anyway)
We lose Cameron and Drew, I don’t really expect either to be back so they will need to be replaced. If Lin can pick up his batting a little bit he would make one of Kalish or Reddick expendable but that isn’t a guarantee. Daisuke isn’t going to get sent down to the minors without his consent, and that wouldn’t happen and I don’t think he’s tradeable either (for he either has a no trade clause or he just isn’t really as good as he gets paid to be).
I’m hesitant on Lee as well, I’m not sure how he would do in the AL East.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
not saying we should trade, but don't forget about the lower level prospects.
If we did trade, we would have a mix of higher and lower level guys. For example, Rizzo instead of Lars.
"man, this team they just suck so bad"- gizmosandy
DFA Bogar
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jun 10, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
DFA Dice-K?????
Wait a minute, Dice-K is maddening to watch and inconsistent at best, but he appears to be a more than serviciable 4-5 starter on this team now. It is just that will all the hype a few years ago, we all expect him to be a 1-2 starter. He has a major leage contract, so he is not going to the minors and I am OK with him in the rotation now.
His numbers are better than Lackey's right now.
"man, this team they just suck so bad"- gizmosandy
DFA Bogar
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jun 10, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
No question.
Especially due to the current holes in our rotation.
But is the cost really worth it?
The problem was signing Lackey and Beckett in the same year. It clogged up the rotation too much. There’s no way to justify taking time away from Lester or Buchholz anymore, and with Matsuzaka and Wakefield, signed through the end of next year, it would mean having seven people who should be starting in a twelve-man pitching staff. The result would be an absolute mess.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Not to mention giving up good prospects
When several people are on their way out? Not smart.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
You do raise a good point...
However, what about the questions with Dice and Wake. You can’t seem to get a consistent outing from either of them anymore. You never know what you’re going to get. If they were to trade for Lee… I wonder if Dice or some other big name could be used as trade bait and effectively event out or lower what the Red Sox are spending right now… or possibly use that money to fix the bullpen issues. Clay and Lester stay put… but the other members of the rotation have giant question marks over their heads.
by mhawkins0612 on Jun 10, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Dice-K can't be used as trade bait
because he has a no trade clause. Anyways, he’s showing some pretty promising signs of turning the corner. Wake is only an issue if Beckett is out for most of the rest of the year.
For the record, also, Dice-K makes less money this year than Lee. And once again, is immovable.
Dice-K's last 4 outings
5/22 vs PHI W 8-1-0-0-4-5
5/27 vs KC L 4.2-2-3-3-8-1
6/02 vs OAK W 6.2-10-3-3-0-7
6/7 vs CLE W 8-4-0-0-2-5
So aside from the KC outing which afterwards Dice-K said something felt wrong about his upper-body, he has been very solid
I'm not saying he's top of the rotation material
but he can be a hell of a 4th/5th starter which is what he’s being asked to be on this team
And, while we're at it, why would the MFY's go after Lee in a trade?
Is the idea that Lee would replace Pettitte? Or would Hughes get sent back to the bullpen to make room for Lee? How exactly is this a good deal in the long term for the Yankees?
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
I agree, it makes NO sense.
Even Vasquez has gotten his act together and it would be dumb for them to move Hughes to the pen after the year he’s had so far. Their rotation is pretty solid from top to bottom.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
This is a no brainer for the Yankees....when he's a free agent
It’s eerily convenient that they could replace Pettitte with Lee. If they feel like another team, the Mets perhaps, is going to make a run at him where he could sign up before getting to FA, that’s when/why they’d make the move this year.
Plus you can never have too many starters, especially when your 3, 4, 5 guys are old, a mess and unproven.
Wakefield for Lee
Seems about even if you listen to folks around here!
BTW, WAS Masterson for Martinez a good trade result now??
It probably was based on this one start.
Masterson has cost us exactly one game. How many more has VMart won us? I’m too lazy to check up on his WAR but I’m sure it’s been more than one since he got here. We’ll see how Hagadone does.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
that was a great start Masterson had, I felt kind of proud of him
but it was his first great start. Martinez is tons more valuable than Masterson, no question. To suggest otherwise is just plain completely ridiculous.
It will ALWAYS be a good trade.
That was maybe the best start Masterson will ever have. He’s OK, but not great. We knew what we had and it wasn’t great. We won’t know for sure how good it was until Hagadone get’s a shot in the majors, he was the centerpiece. Still bitter Wake showed your ass up the other night?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Masterson will have a career in MLB based on versatility, not dominance
He provides teams with a lot of flexibility, but he will never really be a Lester or a Buchholz.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Have you been watching any of these games?
Masterson has won MAYBE two games in a year and a half? I love the kid, but he ain’t exactly settin’ the world on fire.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
I'm going with no.
Mostly because my mental image of NG is an ostrich with his head buried in the sand.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I'd contend that Hagadone was as big a part as Masterson.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
This is something that I've thought about a lot
because I absolutely looove Lee. I would love for him to have a place on the Sox, but I just don’t see it. We have too much tied up in our rotation right now to reasonably add a 6th high-priced pitcher, so it would basically be whatever he cost for a half year of him + 2 draft picks. Unless they decided to get rid of him super-cheap, it would just not be worth it. But man, he IS a great pitcher.
Only two reasons to get Lee this year I can see
1 – Beckett’s injury is more serious that they have acknowledge, and they feel there’s a viable chance at some hardware.
2 – They have high confidence Clay Bucholz will be part of a separate package to acquire a power bat. Gonzalez, Fielder or otherwise.
Without one or both of these, it just doesn’t make sense. You certainly don’t trade prospect or a pitcher in an attempt to block the Yankees
We aren’t getting a bat, unless we HAVE to go and get an OF because Ells or Cam can’t get on the field and I think the way Clay has pitched this year is just making Theo giddy considering all the times he could have traded him and restrained, I think Buchholz is a Sox for good now.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
We don't need a bat.
Look at the AL leaders in runs scored and HR. Our problem is pitching, mostly the pen.
"man, this team they just suck so bad"- gizmosandy
DFA Bogar
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jun 10, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
No on Lee
Seems like a knee jerk reaction to me to go for another high priced starter. You sink more money into the rotation, lose prospects etc. The bullpen needs help, the outfield could use another major league ready guy and the team needs to get healthy (Beckett, Ellsbury). This team is 9 games over .500 having played most of the season without one of its primary starters and a main OF component with speed. Its not panic time
I get in the picture only to stop the Yankees
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by bestbostonsports on Jun 10, 2010 10:47 AM EDT reply actions
That's never a good idea.
Why do something we don’t want to just to stop MFY? There was a reason we didn’t want to do it in the first place.
"man, this team they just suck so bad"- gizmosandy
DFA Bogar
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jun 10, 2010 11:00 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It wouldn’t only be to stop the MFY, (rest assured they are going to make a play for the guy no later than the offseason) the sawx would also be getting a quality pitcher, I wouldn’t do the deal unless Lee signed an extension… plus I think last year Theo didn’t want to give up Buch and they wouldn’t have to this year, plus with the draft the sawx had, I think a couple of the higher-tiered guys in the minors are expendable
by Knuckles O'hoolihan on Jun 10, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, we could give some prospects without it hurting the farm too much,
but signing Lee to an extension is what scares me. He will probably want a long deal. Right now he is 32 and I’m scared of him breaking down or something. Plus, we have so much money and guys tied up in the rotation that it would be difficult to bring any young guy up in the future. The trouble is we would have to sign a Lee extension because 1/2 a year of him isn’t worth it.
"man, this team they just suck so bad"- gizmosandy
DFA Bogar
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jun 10, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Very True
Good points, I’ll just end my argument with this… Theo doesn’t normally hand out deals for more than 3 or 4 years, can you think of a pitcher (besides maybe Kelly) who would be ready to make the jump in that span ? If you can more power to ya brotha, but I can’t think of anyone and I think that’s why Theo extended Beckett…
by Knuckles O'hoolihan on Jun 10, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Felix Doubront
quite possibly Anthony Ranaudo as well if he’s over the injury as advertised. 3 or 4 years is a while. Even someone as far down as Stolmy Pimental could be ready in that time frame
He really wouldn't fit anywhere in the Yankee rotation.
You could try and put Vazquez in the pen I guess, but that’s a colossal waste of money and talent. Not to mention we don’t have an abundance of MLB ready rospects it would take to get the job done. I’m not giving up Montero while his value is so low and Romine might legit have a lace behind the plate in the future. Lee really doesn’t fit into the plans for this season. The offseason is a whole other story. All bets are off come November.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Jun 10, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
The Red Sox's main need is
another bat not another arm
It's hard to say what's been most impressive. The seamless jump from AA? The ability to hit for average? The ability to hit for power? The 18 walks in 111 trips to the plate? The flair for the dramatic? When you're trying to isolate the most impressive aspect of Jason Heyward's game, there's a lot to choose from, and it's only been a month and a half.
What Sox team are you watching?????
We’re in the top 3 of the AL in just about every single major batting category, including the big one, runs. Hitting isn’t the problem, it is pitching but we aren’t going to trade for Lee, not this year. We need a couple new bullpen arms and hope that Lackey, Dice-K and Beckett can pull it together.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
very funny...
Wait, are you for real? Have you seen the sox pen?
"man, this team they just suck so bad"- gizmosandy
DFA Bogar
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jun 10, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Should/Would?
It is difficult to say the Sox, or really any team, should not pursue one of the top 5 pitchers in the game and perhaps the best lefthander. That being said, I don’t believe the Sox should pursue Lee at this time. I do see him going to the Yankees in the off-season to replace Petite, but I don’t see the Yankees making a move for him at the deadline, since Lee will be testing the FA market. Why give prospects and money when you can just give money? The Yankees do not seem to be in great need of starting pitching anyway, and they may even surprise in the off-season by going after Crawford and not Lee.
Look for Lee to go to a team that is in the race, has a willingness to spend some money (Lee will cost @$5 mil for the half season, not a big number for anybody not called the Marlins, Pirates or Royals) and prospects, and needs starting pitching. That leaves a ton of bidders, including the Braves, Cardinals, Tigers, Angels, Cubs and even the Twins. The Rangers are a possibilty, but they are in Chapter 11 now.
The Sox are better served pursuing OF and bullpen help via in-season trade.
No
Theo should just enter the negotiations to drive up the price for the Yankees. IF the rumors around Lee to NY are anywhere near true, they are going to give up at least Jesus Montero for Lee, one of their best prospects.
SO Casey Kelly or someone of that caliber would have to be moved and I would rather the Red Sox hold off and save their prospects for the inevitable Adrian Gonzales trade in the off season. Even with Beltre playing great, I would rather have AG in 2011 then Beltre or a Lee rental in 10.
IF the Yankees want to throw away their future, bc they will need Montero when Posada retires, let them. Lee does not guarantee a World Series for the Yankees.
Seriously what is the Yankees payroll going to look like if they get Lee, sign hm to extension and then sign C. Crawford. $350 million a year?
I sincerely doubt the Sox get Gonzalez this offseason.
The way the Padres have been playing this year I expect Hoyer to be buying this offseason, not selling.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Jun 10, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Sure, but....
Can the Padres afford a $150 mil. contract? If they continue to contend this year and feel good about next season, they may be more reluctant to trade him in the offseason unless they get blown away. Of course they can always wait until the 2011 trade deadline and go from there.
Most likely no, they can't afford that
But I don’t think an offseason trade is “inevitable”
Possible, sure, but they might just try and ride the Adrian gravy train until the end of 2011 and take some picks.
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Jun 10, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
And if they make the playoffs with him or, heaven forbid, the World Series then they made the absolutely correct decision.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Jun 10, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, and the right thing to do
Remember, other teams have fans too. As a baseball fan and a Red Sox fan, I would not want to see the Padres or any other team, especially one in contention, simply give up by trading productive and popular players. At least the Padres have had their ups and downs, unlike the Pirates and Royals that have not had a winning record in a generation.
frankly, the value of a player doesn't change a whole ton between a full season and a half season
if they keep this up through the year, Hoyer almost certainly keeps him to see if they can do it next year as well and if not trade. If they can, then compete and take the draft picks. No reason to throw away your superstar when it stops you from competing.
Lets wait and see what the Padres do
The Dodgers are playing great right now and I just dont see the Padres holding on. And there is no way they can pay AG what he is worth on the market, especially after Ryan Howards deal.
AG will be traded in the off season, its just stupid to hold onto him when you are rebuilding.
They aren't rebuilding though. They have a contender right now.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Jun 10, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
smoke and mirrors
they are not going to win the NL West or get the wild card. They took advantage of a terrible Dbacks team, a poorly playing Dodger team and an underachieving Rockies team.
By July the Padres will be in 3rd place in the NL West with no chance at the playoffs.
Padres are rebuilding and even if they were a contender SD does not have the money to pay 25 million a year which means you trade AG and get something more than 2 picks.
The Padres are NOT trading Gonzalez this year. I'm going on record with that.
I also believe that with an outfielder or two, they will make the playoffs.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Jun 10, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
AG will be on some other team by Jan 1 2011.
Too many teams want him, too many teams will give up top prospects for him.
Its either that or pay Prince Fielder 25 million a year for roughly the same bat and 1/3 the defensive player.
There are a lot of teams looking for 1b help this off season.
Hey but if the Padres keep AG, the Red Sox only have to give up picks in 2 years. Fine with me.
Whoa?
Seriously you think the problem with SD is their OF, not the 3 teams that have better pitching, a better lineup and better bullpens in their division?
Dodgers, SF and Colorado are better teams than SD. Rockies will get hot and get De La Rosa back and they will start to put another run together.
This.
San Diego will be looking to add at the deadline. I was a doubter until this last week when they split against the Phillies. Garland is pitching out of his head, and I believe Latos is for real. With decent outfield and a plus pitcher it would not surprise me to see them go deep in the playoffs, possibly being a World Series contender.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Jun 10, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
But the Yankees will not give up prospects for Lee. I’m sure Lee is not going to sign with anybody for a discouted rate before FA. How often does that happen with top tier FA’s? Not much with the Yankees looming. So they can simply buy him in Decemeber if they want. You would think there HAS to be some limit on the Yankees payroll. Remember, $300 payroll is a lot more $$ with tax on top of that.
Yes, the Sox should line up their ducks for a run at a big bat like Adrian Gonzalez. Theo appears to have pulled of a nice stew of “bridge” players so far, but they are still going to need a long-term impact bat for the middle of that lineup.
BULLPEN
BULLPEN BULLPEN BULLPEN BULLPEN.
BULLPEN
If Cliff Lee or Adrian Gonzalez or the Dalai Lama can pitch out of the bullpen, then sign ‘im. Elsewise, don’t care.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
by Bloggy on Jun 10, 2010 12:09 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
EXACTLY!!!
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Indeed.
I’d rather have Heath Bell or Sergio Santos than AG or Lee right now.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Jun 10, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I ve always been a big fan of Thornton
He throws real hard. Nice contrast with Okie against lefties.
No chance we get Bell
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by bestbostonsports on Jun 11, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
+10^(10^100)!!
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
rec'd
this pen can’t win a championship. If we fix that and add some pieces, then the team will be a strong contender for years.
"man, this team they just suck so bad"- gizmosandy
DFA Bogar
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
by BoldandBrash on Jun 10, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
My full thoughts on this.
First of all, why he won’t be with the Yankees. This year, the Yankees don’t need pitching. Pettite, Hughes, CC, Burnett and Vasquez form a pretty ridiculous rotation this year. Their biggest need, like ours is bullpen help. I think this is Lee’s most likely destination after the season. They have the money and will be losing at least one of those starters and are always looking googly eyed around the biggest offseason names. Also they value their two catching prospects very highly, even if there doesn’t seem to be a spot for them in the lineup in the foreseeable future given how Cervelli has taken to the bigs. It would probably take at least Montero to pull Lee away from Seattle. Why pay twice for him when you’re pitching is fine this year and you can just pay cash later? Also, if someone else trades for Lee they’ll still be fine. With the emergence of Hughes their rotation next year could be Hughes, CC, Burnett and two other FA/trade players. They don’t need a front of the rotation starter that badly.
Why won’t WE trade for Lee? This is back to the “bridge year” philosophy. I believe that Theo went about constructing the most competitive team he could with an eye to the future and the prospects we have sitting in the minors developing. Cameron and Scutaro bridge the gap to when we will need Kalish and Reddick and probably Iglesias to step up. There is still a lot of uncertainty from 1B-3B-C-DH but that isn’t the point. This is the team we are fielding this year and I don’t think Theo plans to make any massive changes. If he was planning on augmenting the team we would have seen a trade for a solid reliever or for a better 4th outfielder at this point and it hasn’t happened. It seems to me that Theo has set the roster and gone “Oh well” to the 2010 season, if we do great, awesome, if not, his expectations weren’t high to begin with and he can always look back to his “bridge year” statement and say “I told you so.” Our starting pitching has been weak this year and isn’t anything what it was expected to look like, which is why it should get better. But the fact remains our biggest needs are relievers and in the OF. Let alone that we’ll probably want to sign him to an extension that would be risky for a 32 year old player and cost a lot of money, probably more than Beckett or Lackey.
And lastly, why Seattle isn’t going to trade him anyway. For one, he is cheap. At $8mil for the year he is a big bargain for that team to have. And Seattle isn’t done either, they are 9 games back, which might seem like a lot, however even the best teams in the west are only a couple games over .500, it would only take a quick stretch of strong play for Seattle, a team many thought improved greatly this offseason, to be right back in the thick of it. Also, because they are going to ask too much for him. They know that if they keep him for the year they’re going to get a couple high draft picks out of him. The Yankees aren’t going to want to trade Montero for him and the Sox aren’t going to want to trade Kelly for him.
But this is just one man’s opinion, we could already have a deal in place that no one knows about. But these are pretty logical reasons why we, or the Yanks, won’t be seeing Lee pitching for them later this year.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Don't bet against the Red Sox making moves
Theo Epstein has made some of his best moves as a GM near the trade deadline. Usually, the moves generate a negative knee-jerk reaction from the fan-base (see: Nomar for O-Cab, Roberts, Manny + prospects + $ for Bay (ug; still looks bad on paper) ), but they’ve worked out for the team.
Good relievers are tough to acquire since any with high K rates are marketed as a potential closers, jacking the price. Nevertheless, if the ‘pen keep struggling expect Theo to deal for a guy that makes us say, “Meh.” And he’ll probably work out, if only to defray the number of innings our talented guys have to pitch.
The Sox will not trade for Lee. Write it in pen. There’s not much room in the rotation and we just signed Lackey and Beckett to big contracts. There are other teams who want and need Lee more, and will trade more to get him.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
I think that this year they have a different attitude, pretty much this is the best team we could assemble given what we had to work with and this is the one we’re going to have all year and if at the end of the year we don’t make the playoffs Theo will roll out of his office and say “Hey I said it was a bridge year.” He knows that when Drew, Cameron and Scutaro leave we will have replacements from the minors ready. I think we’ll get another 1 year rental at 3B and maybe catcher depending on if we resign VMart to be DH or not. I think that’s where our biggest changes will be, the offseason. I can’t see any moves Theo will see as being worth it with a bunch of prospects coming up in the next two years.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
i don't see any reason why Theo would give up on the season
I think he just as fully intends to make the playoffs as other years. Shouldn’t even require a huge move. A couple pieces to shore up the bullpen (we even have one or two in Pawtucket who could make a difference), and this is a great team.
I mainly think this because he hasn’t done anything yet. We knew before the season started that the bullpen was going to be bad. And then it happened and nothing has been done about it over the first third of the season.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Did we really?
Papelbon is very, very good at worst (dominant at best). Bard has really become quite good. MDC has his good days and bad, but has the ability to go more than one inning. Ram-Ram’s BAA is 30 points higher than last year. Okajima is perhaps the biggest disappointment this year; he’s gone from bad to worse. His K/BB rate is nearly 1:1 and his BAA is 70 points higher than last year. The other two spots (currently occupied by Nelson and Bonser) are filler, and the main roster spots we could stand to upgrade.
But what team has a perfect bullpen, top to bottom? I think we had every expectation that our bullpen would be, at worst, average going into the season.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
I think the Sox will get bullpen help
I like the Matt Thornton idea, CWS are not winning, looking to move players. Thornton would fit nicely as the other lefty and probably would be cheap to get.
CWS has already started looking to dump Peavy and his contract, so I am guessing CWS players are available.
I think Jenks and Putz are more likely to be moved than Thornton.
Thornton is Chicago’s closer of the future, they won’t me moving him unless they get a closer-esque haul for him. They may have gone into selling mode, but KW still wants to be competitive next year, their talented young guys are going to be staying around.
You and I clashed earlier over the Padres, but with their bullpen they would probably be willing to deal Heath Bell for an outfield bat.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Jun 10, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
yes, this is unfortunately true
and Jenks, I believe is under team control for one more year as well, which means Putz is the only one they’re pretty sure to move easily.
MDC and RamRam both sucked it up for the better part of the second half of last year and Oki was clearly going into decline. Bard we knew was going to be good, and at worst Papelbon sucks, at best he is dominant, we just never know which one we’re going to get, the guy who is going to throw meatballs or the guy mixing in cutters and fooling batters. Then there was the Atchinsons, Schonenweis’, Nelsons, and Boofs in the world who shouldn’t even have been there.
The problem with the bullpen isn’t that it’s perfect, its that there is only a single human being in it who we know will be dominant night in and night out with Bard since Papelbon hasn’t exactly figured out his problems from last year yet. Don’t you cringe whenever a pitcher leaves in the 6th or 7th? No lead is safe and it’s been that way since the first series with the Yankees to start the season.
I knew the pen wasn’t going to be that good. And it still isn’t and still nothing has been done.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Yes, does not suck, but.....
to go all the way, you better have a top notch closer (check), a top notch setup guy or two(check-Bard), and at setup guy that can get lefties out. Papps/Bard are not enough, DelCarmen is OK, but if Okajima is a big problem.
Unfortunately, bullpen help is an area where team classically overpay to fill a need. Jeff Bagwell anybody? Gagne was a disaster, I guess Wagner was OK last year.
Wagner was really quite good for us last year. Gagme stunk horribly, but it was still a good idea at the time.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
Agree
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by bestbostonsports on Jun 11, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with Wolf
The playoffs are as much about who gets hot at the right time as it does about the “best” team. I think Theo’s approach is to make the playoffs in any way possible, and have a dominant 1-2 (or 1-2-3, if possible) once you get there.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
Lee might not get traded
Maybe the mariners go on a run and get back into it. The season isnt near over.
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