Josh Beckett, Red Sox Agree to Four-Year Extension
by Randy Booth on Apr 5, 2010 12:53 PM EDT
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Josh Beckett and the Red Sox have reportedly agreed on a four-year contract extension worth $68 million, according to the Boston Globe.
A press conference is scheduled for 3 p.m.
No -- the press conference is not to announce Beckett has been cut after last night's poor performance. Instead, he'll be getting a new contract worth right in the same range as John Lackey's deal he signed over the offseason.
As of now, I'm liking this deal for the Red Sox. There won't be a lot of quality arms entering the market, so Theo Epstein is making sure to lock up one of the most consistent ones in baseball when he can. This is cheaper than any deal the Sox could have locked with Beckett on the open market, considering the lack of pitching to be available.
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Could be worse.
"Hating the New York Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers and cheating on your income tax." -- Mike Royko
by sox-inda-south on Apr 5, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right, he could ruin my next 6 season instead of 5
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Sean O - this hate you have is worrisome
I mean the Becks is admittedly and maddeningly inconsistent at times, but it’s not like he’s gone over to the Yankees, blown a World Series game…or done really anything negative in Boston…beyond give up a lot of HRs and have some bad losses.
On the other hand, he was outstanding in ’07 and one of the central figures in winning that WS.
If you feel this angry toward Beckett – you must really hate Lackey who is getting paid more and has done much less.
Don't tease me
with thoughts of Beckett on the Yankees. Oh, to dream.
I hate Beckett because he’s an arrogant, overrated putz who falls apart when we need him. Nearly a 6 ERA vs the Yankees, breaks down in October, and yet he’s still arrogant. He’s the only regular player I actually dislike at this point. He ruins my enjoyment of this club when he’s on the mound.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Breaks down in October??
How is dismantling the Angels considered breaking down?
Homer: Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.
by DougieWentDeep on Apr 5, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
When did this happen?
I must’ve missed it. He gave up 4 runs in 5 innings in 2008, then 4 runs in 6 2/3rds in 2008. Not counting the 10 runs (5 homers!) in 9 1/rd innings to the Rays in ’08.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
This game comes to mind
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS200710030.shtml
this one was also nice (though not the Angels)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CLE/CLE200710180.shtml
It seems to me that it’s pretty common knowledge that Beckett had a subpar year in 2008… so I don’t think its fair to write him off that easily
Homer: Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.
by DougieWentDeep on Apr 5, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I get it
Beckett was good in 2007, So were John Smoltz, Kelvim Escobar and Oliver Perez. Why don’t we sign them to a 4 year, 68m contract?
Beckett has done nothing for us for 3 of his 4 seasons. He had one good year, and everyone treats him like god. He’s our 3rd best pitcher now, if Buckles pitches like he can meathead is 4th, and if Matsuzaka comes back he’s 5th. But we keep treating him like an ace, while he gets killed in october and murdered by the Yankees.
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I would never put Dice K ahead of Beckett
and how can you not be OK with having Beckett as a solid 4th starter if he continues to get worse like you claim he’s going to. The guy is still a good pitcher and going into the next 4 years with a rotation of Lester, Beckett, Lackey and Buch is awesome in my opinion whether Beckett is the #1,2,3 or 4 starter…
John Smoltz was great in 2007 but he’s also like a million year olds… so was Pedro… I can pick and choose whoever I want to compare him to so long as it fits your argument…
Homer: Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.
by DougieWentDeep on Apr 5, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
The point is
He’s done nothing for us in 3 of the 4 seasons. Using 2007 as proof that he’s a functional pitcher is not outweighed by his relative mediocrity before and since.
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definition of mediocrity please?
cause I have a fangraphs page that says otherwise
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=510&position=P
I don’t consider that a mediocre pitcher, especially at the age of 30… now is it the greatest pitcher of our generation? no, I think we’ll get our moneys worth out of this especially when you consider we won’t need to break the bank to shore up our rotation for the next couple of years
Homer: Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.
by DougieWentDeep on Apr 5, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course we won't
because we’ve already broken it. Matsuzaka is making $16-20m a year in terms of total investment, Lackey is at 17, meathead is 17, and Lester varies. That’s $50m+ for an aging core, when we have no solutions to 3b, ss or c without spending big.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
I honestly don't see Dice K being around too long
You’re aging core then consists of Beckett (30) Lackey (32) Lester (26) Clay (26)… yeah… that’s a real aging rotation… 2 older solid performers who have proven they can compete despite your objections… and 2 young promising studs for the future…
we have a shortstop of the future in the minors… the catcher and the third baseman would be where that money goes that you would want to spend on another pitcher… i just dont see the reasoning behind crying for Becketts head when he has come over and helped us be competitive year in and year out
Homer: Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.
by DougieWentDeep on Apr 5, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
The point is he's done nothing...mediocrely?
He’s been a good pitcher. He hasn’t been as dominate as Pedro was while he was the Ace and he hasn’t won as many Ace vs Ace match ups as we may like….but there is a long long way between what Beckett has done and being a mediocre pitcher.
also, the 'what have you done for us recently' mentatlity
… is pretty childish
Homer: Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.
by DougieWentDeep on Apr 5, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right
1 of his 4 years has been elite, so obviously he’s consistently great.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
please note that I am not the one using these words
‘elite’ or ‘god’… i have not once said he is the end all to be all for our rotation, just that he has done better than you would like to give him credit for and will help give us one of the best, if not the best, rotations in baseball
the only god on this team is Youk as we all should know
Homer: Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.
by DougieWentDeep on Apr 5, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
his stats from some of his years in Boston still floor me
Homer: Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.
by DougieWentDeep on Apr 5, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Hopefully they don't get an asterix next to it
for any drug related issues like the rest of the decade
Pedro
Part of me was hoping that they were going to announce that they signed Pedro to a one year deal. Then I realized that’s probably a horrible idea, but fun to fantasize, right?
I was also hoping that he would throw some gas for the opening pitch.
I guess it could happen
His velocity is down though, isn’t it? And I’ve got to think that he wants to start, and that some team will give him that chance this summer.
Velocity might go back up out of the pen.
And if he doesn’t find a starting job, then he can come retire with us out of the pen.
USG
Woah
Stop teasing me with that idea…
If he came back out of pen (he’s done it for the Red Sox before), I may just die a happy young man, LOL.
My favorite player Red Sox player, ever (sorry I wasn’t around for the 70s; I’m an 80s baby).
And naturally
players get injured less frequently as they get older? I’ve repeatedly said “he breaks down in October.” That’s not a defense of Beckett, that’s a reason not to set fire to 68m dollars.
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By all accounts
Beckett is the guy on the pitching staff that spends the most time with the position players and is a leader in the clubhouse. How he comes off via the media is pretty irrelevant.
Sure, I’d rather have Beckett coming off a strong performance, but this will be a really good deal for the Red Sox over the duration of the contract, especially if current “pitching & defense” fad turns more into a pervasive trend.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
LOL - that is so funny
Yep. ‘Might as well disconnect your TVs and boycott Fenway for the next 4 years, folks. Sean says "We’re screwed".
This (Beckett’s extension) was the straw that broke us!
Good stuff! I don’t think I’ve snorted this much coffee on my keyboard in a week or so.
No way
I like Fenway, even he can’t keep me from liking the architecture. The team is another story.
Let’s see which team he fails against in the ALDS this year.
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Great News!
Any links from credible sources that this is fact and not rumor (not to say you arent a credible source at all!)
Just like to see confirmation before I bust out the bubbly.
Damn that means we have Beckett, Lackey, and Lester locked in for the forseeable future! Wow how great is that.
"I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day. And I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
Carl "Yaz" Yastrzemski
Yahoo has an article up if that is credible....
"Hating the New York Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers and cheating on your income tax." -- Mike Royko
by sox-inda-south on Apr 5, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Well..
From the fanposts it looks like Ian Kennedy is the source of this story (his tweet) and he as a reliable source as any.
"I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day. And I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
Carl "Yaz" Yastrzemski
So to break it down Year by Year....
Still 10 million left on that 3 year 30 million for 2010 and then it’s just 17 million for the next 4 years…. 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014?
Sounds right to me.
"Hating the New York Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers and cheating on your income tax." -- Mike Royko
i dont really get it
reportedly beckett was looking for 5 years and a bit more than lackey.
why didnt they give that to him? now we get 4 years for lackey money. even if they think that his shoulder is gonna act up again…isnt that a risk woth taking for like…5-7m, i assume that is what he wanted more than lackey (total specualtion on my part). iknow john henry isnt really happy with long term deals and beckett is gonna be in his mid 30s but still…
i still think this contract is very good (given the fa starters next year) but i just dont get the 4year version
So the Sox shouldn't have signed Beckett - what should they have done alternatively to solidify the Rotation through 2014
This deal locks up the Sox top 3 pitchers through ’14, all of whom are in their primes for at least 2 of the next 4 years.
This is a ridiculous foundation for the Sox to have, pending injuries
I'm sticking with
contract to random person in the stands. Any human on the planet other than Beckett.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
LOL - what about '07?
Are you only going to remember ‘08 and ’09 playoffs? 20 wins and basically untouchable in the playoffs – for a World Series winning team. He was dominate. You didn’t like him then?
Did he sleep with your wife/girlfriend/mother or something?
What is that adjective reserved for then?
Dominate (intransitive verb) 1 : to have or exert mastery, control, or preeminence
2007 Post Season:
- 30ip
- 4 R
- 35k
- 2 BB
- .700 WHIP
I think it’s at least close to the mark, but whats’ your peeve?
Dominate is the verb, dominant is the adjective.
It should be “He was dominant,” not “He was dominate.” (If you want to use “dominate” there, you should say “He was dominating.”)
+1
For correct grammar
"I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day. And I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
Carl "Yaz" Yastrzemski
I feel your pain
I was a copy editor for a magazine for several years in college. To this day, it’s hard for me to read stuff and not fix the errors in my head. (My ability to remember what I read in poorly-written material hovers around zero as a result.)
Jonny...
Sean`s unreasonable hatred of Beckett is well known here. Asking a rational question in this case and expecting a rational answer is like trying to teach a pig to dance. All you are going to do is get dirty and piss the pig off.
This signing is a great move, and you are 100% correct there is no legit replacement which would be available in the near future.
"I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day. And I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
Carl "Yaz" Yastrzemski
You can't
Because I still think we shouldn’t have traded Hanley to get him in the first place. Then he was horribly arrogant before his 5.01 ERA, refusing to learn anything from Schilling or Varitek. In the meantime, he has ruined my green monster game, a birthday game, and about a half-dozen others.
I hate him as a person and a ballplayer.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Depends
Did Larry Anderson act like he was god’s gift to baseball?
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Larry was the other side of the Jeff Bagwell deal
Bagwell being the only power hitter* the Sox have produced out of their farm system in…..20 yrs?
I'm aware
But it’s not just the idiocy of the Hanley deal itself, it’s also Beckett’s insistence afterward of how great he was. And then he got hammered all of 2006.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
It does plenty
But I still hated him in 2007. Beckett being on the ’07 team detracted from the experience, not enhanced.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Most people here expected a learning curve
He was coming from AAAA (NL) to the AL East. That’s not easy.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
Fine
Then don’t brag about how awesome you are. Shut your mouth and learn how to pitch instead of throw, especially going to a veteran team. He didn’t bother, because he’s a punk.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Sean O you keep out doing yourself!
a Punk?
Seriously which member of your family did he tag? Or his this like a baseball camp gone Priest/Child type thing?
Then maybe he can start pitching well consistently
If he ever does that then maybe I won’t hate him. But he can’t.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Beckett's WAR, ranked in AL
2007: 6.5 (2nd)
2008: 5.0 (8th)
2009: 5.3 (7th)
Only other pitchers w/ 5.0+ WAR in the last three seasons in the AL are Roy, CC and Beckett. That is consistency.
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As a counter
Last year he was 20th in FIP, which he even manages to underperform, and was slaughtered by every team he faced regularly. Teams that see him often destroy him.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
10 pts off the House of O
for misleading use of statistics! :-)
He still had a a well-better than average FIP. Being 20th in FIP doesn’t mean that much in itself.
FIP alone does not result in his total value. Need to factor in the service time.
I.E. “What was his FIP ranking among AL starters who logged 200 innings?” The answer to that would 7th (behind Greinke, Verlander, Halladay, Hernandez, Lester & CC).
For xFIP + 200 innings, his rank was 5th.
Not a dominant, elite standing, in either case, but definitely of high value.
‘Cant wash out the fact that he was worth 5.3 WAR. If that’s a bad (underperforming) year … I’ll take it.
He was pretty bad...
last year against the Yanks, yet in 2008 when he “did nothing” for the Sox as you stated he went 3-1 with a 3.25 ERA in 4 starts vs. the evil empire, then went 2-1 with a 2.06 ERA in 5 starts against the Rays
I hate this. Give the money to Victor.
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by bestbostonsports on Apr 5, 2010 1:19 PM EDT reply actions
Good point, I just don’t trust Theo with this stuff.
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by bestbostonsports on Apr 5, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
With free agency? Yeah. Smoltz. Penny. Renteria. Lugo. Shall I continue?
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by bestbostonsports on Apr 5, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Four guys who didn't work out?
Man, that has to be the worst track record of any GM EVER!
There are GMs who havent made a good signing in their career and others who made four bad signings this year.
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Okajima, Matsuzaka, Drew, Ortiz, Millar, Saito, Mueller, not to mention this year’s crop of Beltre, Scutaro, Cameron and Lackey which the jury is still out on but all appear to be decent deals. Shall I continue?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Matsuzaka has worked out? Really? Since When?
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by bestbostonsports on Apr 6, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Both as a marketing tool and as having 2/3 above-average seasons.
Hasn’t been an ace, but hasn’t been as bad as the world makes him out to be.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Apr 6, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
He's only terrible
when you have to watch him pitch.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Don't divide your hate.
Remain focused.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
I want to clarify
Even with all of his stupid moves over the year (focusing more on WBC, coming to camp fat, blaming the Red Sox), I have no ill-will towards zaka. But the fact remains, when I say I’m going to a game and people hear he’s pitching, I get sympathy.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
True enough. He makes it painful.
But he’s had some above average results for a pitcher in Fenway against AL East batters.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Apr 6, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
for all his walks - at least Dice-K isn't wild
He’s a deliberate nibbler who simply refuses to give in to hitters. I’ll take that over a wild pitcher any day. With Dice-K he just believes if he walks one guy, he’ll still induce the next guy to make an out.
Painful to watch, yes. But as you say, overall the net effect has been positive so far.
Dice-K unfortunately is expected to post ‘ace’ numbers based on the big posting fee which inflates his overall price tag in the minds of many fans – even though for the RS management, his price is at this point just his salary.
Absolutely
He’s like Bellhorn circa 2004: miserable to watch play, but gets results.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
everyone makes mistakes, he's not omniscient
he makes less than others. Smoltz and Penny were calculated risks that didn’t work out, not failures. There was no reason to believe that Renteria would have performed the way he did before he came over- but I could see that arguing getting rid of Cabrera was a mistake. Lugo was never a good idea.
Now show me a GM who has had every deal work out.
Part of the strength of being a high payroll team like the red sox is that they can afford to take risks without necessarily relying on them- last year, with smoltz, penny, and lugo, the team made the playoffs. In 2007, with Lugo at short, they won the world series. His job is to put out a contending team every year, not to have every player be the best one at their position.
If we’re talking about letting people walk let’s look at his track record there- Nomar, Pedro, Manny- these were all appropriate moves. We’ll see in a couple of years how good an idea letting Bay walk was.
Agreed that Lugo was his one real mistake.
And possibly Lowell, though only the most misanthropic people named Sean can blame him for it after the 2006 and 2007 performances, with the hords of fans following Lowell’s duck boat and chanting “Re-sign Lowell!”
USG
Seriously?
hell, idiot Red Sox fans gave him the loudest ovation on Sunday night, if we’re going by public sentiment why not make him our starting 3b again?
Theo’s supposed to make the smart decision, not the popular one. He often does neither.
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I still don't get your vitreol for the deal.
He wasn’t a consistent .377 wOBA guy, no. But he could be expected to bounce back and forth from .350 to .370, generally, and bring plus defense to the table. Were it not for his big hip injury, he would still be manning 3rd today, and it would be a fair deal. If anything, give Theo credit that he wasn’t willing to go to 4 years because he was so wary of his age and injury.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Apr 6, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
2007 was an outlier season
which everyone knew. Typically he was an average to below average player through his peak years. By making him one of the top 3 paid 3b in the game, we needed him to maintain roughly 2007 levels when he was an elite talent, which he had no chance of.
Going into his mid-30s there was a high chance of regression, especially since he never had an ability to take a walk, and the chance of injury also went up greatly. Plus, there wasn’t unanimous belief that he was a plus defender; the fielding bible said he was the worst 3b in the game (FBII showed that he bounced back, but FB1 showed him as still really atrocious).
So we were locking ourselves into a guy with at least some doubts about his glove, who couldn’t take a walk, in his mid 30s, whose 2007 was entirely due to Fenway Park (.993 home, .767 away). He needed us more than we needed him.
Giving Theo credit for not going to 4 years is like suggesting to a mugger that you have more money other than your wallet. Going 3 years was idiocy, going 4 was just ridiculous.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
"Typically he was an average to below average player through his peak years."
That’s just plain incorrect. Since his rookie year, he had wOBAs of:
.352
.337
.349
.371
.371
Up until his one awful year in 2005 when he had a .291 that enabled the Red Sox to get him as a salary dump requirement for the Beckett deal. His .344 wOBA in 2006 and .377 wOBA in 2007 are not at all outliers. If I had slipped those two seasons in between .349 and .371, nobody would have batted an eye at it.
Fielding wise, he had been slightly below average through most of his Florida career, but had two great years in Boston by the time he was up for free agency, and that played out in his new contract anyways up until the hip injury.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Apr 6, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
OPS rank for batters with 450+ PA (since he hasn’t qualified for 2 straight seasons):
2009: 11th/24
2008: 10th/26
2007: 5th/24
2006: 15th/29
2005: 28th/28
Now, some of these include players who weren’t even really 3bs, but 2bs and SS forced to play 3b (Loretta is in the 2006 list, for example). If you factor in true full-time 3bs, Lowell is right at average or below.
For OBP:
2009: 13/24
2008: 13/26
2007: 5/24
2006: 19/29 (below Loretta)
2005: 27/28
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You also factor in names like Miguel Cabrera, Troy Glaus, and Garret Atkins
Who didn’t really have much claim to being third baseman other than their clubs sticking them there. Lowell generally ranged from average to well above average in both factors of the game, with
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Apr 6, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
We need to stop throwing money
at mid-30s, declining, non-elite players.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Yes, better to play nobody at all at third.
Mike Lowell would have been worth the money we paid for him had it not been for the hip injury. While you accept a higher risk of injury as age goes on, assuming it for a player who had yet to miss significant time is not exactly logical.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Apr 6, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
There's a pretty big ? around that 2005
That very well could be an injury. Bottom line is, 30+ players get injured, simple as that. I’d say the fact that everything I said would happen happened means it wasn’t outside the realm of possibility.
We would’ve found somebody for third (OR FIRST) who probably wouldn’t have been injured costing us the ’08 ALCS.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
If there is a big question mark around 2005, you can't count his numbers really.
And then he has 2 good years of durability under his belt afterwards.
Now then, give me a name at third or first. The FA were awful that year.
USG
I am
Not Mike Lowell, that’s my way. I’m not going to go back to the ’07 offseason at this point and figure out every option. The point is, throwing money at someone who is so likely to fall apart, as he did completely, is not smart.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
He was far from "so likely to fall apart"
Older players get injured more, yes, but it’s far from the lock you make it out to be.
USG
+ 1
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by bestbostonsports on Apr 6, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I would not call Lowell a mistake. He has done a lot for this team. But Theo wants to trade him and eat his $12 mm. I guess that counts as a mistake,
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by bestbostonsports on Apr 6, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Smoltz and Penny
Smoltz was a good idea that didn’t pan out. Penny didn’t work out because he was signed as a #5 guy, but forced to pitch as a #3 guy due to injuries. Still a good idea.
I really wanted to keep Orlando Cabrera. :/
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
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Carl "Yaz" Yastrzemski
Keeping the deal at 4 years is amazing
The annual value is just what pitchers of Beckett’s talent are getting, so I can’t complain there. Who would we have signed otherwise? I like the idea of Webb, but he’d need to pitch well this season, and if he did that he’d be hella-expensive.
Nope, wasn't me
Didn’t even see there was a poll ‘til I saw your post. So I’m not alone.
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Me.
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by bestbostonsports on Apr 5, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
2012 Rotation
What if it looked like Beckett, Lester, Lackey, Bucholz, and Kelly? Oh that would be beautiful.
Nitpick
Lester, and 4 other guys in whatever order you pleae.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
There is really no difference between Lester and Beckett.
Beckett has been unlucky with some flyballs turning into HRs at a higher rate than expected & unlucky on some balls in play w/ the defense behind them. The two pitchers have a very, very similar skill set.
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Lester is younger and developing. Last year he was quite a bit better than Beckett.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Apr 6, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Lester's best two seasons
already nearly match Beckett’s in terms of ERA + (145 and 138 for meathead, 144 and 138 for Lester).
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Lester is the Sox real ace.
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by bestbostonsports on Apr 6, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure anyone here disagrees
that Lester is better than Beckett. Just that Beckett is worth the extension. If it was a choice between one or the other, Beckett would be stupid to take, but it’s not.
Im really liking the idea of having Lester, Beckett, Lackey, and Bucholhz for the next 4-5 years. Thats a pretty good rotation.
"The Highlander"
Last of the Immortals.
There can be only one … knuckleballer …
Awesome
Have the top four of the rotation locked up through 2014, this is a good deal and will prevent him from being distracted during the season. He’s been a solid pitcher every year here and four years I think is the perfect amount of time for him.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I hope so. I am dreading that Theo will screw this up.
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by bestbostonsports on Apr 5, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Great Deal
The bashers, or singular basher (sean o), are quick to talk about the negatives without coming up with a better alternative for a team with a) a large payroll budget, b) a desire to compete every year. Baseball is a game of failure, we can always come up with a down side for any pitcher or player. The fact remains that the Sox wrapped up one of the top 5 pitchers in the AL, and got him for a discount over free agency.
Now that the pitching is set for the next 4-5 years, they can worry about adding that big bat in the middle of the lineup for next (this?) season. Not many teams, including the Yankees can say thier starting pitching is set for the next 4-5 years.
I've come up with my alternative
Anyone else on the planet. We have 5 other starters currently, and a farm system that creates pitchers frequently. If that doesn’t work, take a flier on somebody.
Anyone but meathead.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
See, you and me are gonna be confusin' one another this season
Since I refer to Lackey as “That Meathead”
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
I've been calling Beckett meathead since '06
So longevity is on my side.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
"take a flier"??
Is this a joke? Are we on Candid Camera? You went back and thought and that was the best you came up with?? Wait and see if random Double A pitcher decides to pan and if not “take a flier”. Cuz that’s an AWESOME idea in the AL East. That sound you’re hearing is your credibility shutting the door behind itself on the way out.
by bucknersrevenge on Apr 5, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude
I’ve said I’d prefer holding a contest where we sign some random person out of the stands to replace Beckett. Compared to that, taking a flier would of course be an improvement.
I don’t care who, or what, we would replace Beckett with. The most important thing is not having meathead on this team, regardless of outcome. Now I’m just going to have to pretend he doesn’t exist by ignoring him for 5 wasted seasons.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Just say you're irrational
and make no sense and save people the trouble. Logic is out the window. Go ahead and hate on him and hate on the Sox if you have to. You can keep trying to convince yourself that Beckett is wrong for this team. You can want this team to fail all you want but this move ensure Boston will be on the top of the pile for a while with excellent pitching depth.
by bucknersrevenge on Apr 5, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
"a farm system that creates pitchers frequently".
Not ones worth holding onto aside from Lester, and before him, Clemens.
Are you really going to swallow that PR crap being stuffed down our throats? Buchholz is not scaring anyone, nor Bowden. So you’re really postulating that Casey Kelly is the likely answer from within, or Stormy Pimental, for pitchers that will put up a sub 4 ERA, ~200 K, and make 30+ starts.
We create pitchers all the time. Just look at the storied, gritty, dominant performances of Hunter Jones, Nick Hagadon, Justin Masterson, Brandon Moss…
This isn’t Brad Penny/Smoltz all over again. I’d love to see the 1999 Pedro still here. But fact is, Josh is a better option than Peavy, Vasquez, Lowe, Lee, Halladay, etc. because he only costs $. Pay Josh, the rotation’s fine, and can we now turn our attention to the more pressing matters. Catching is ten-fold the more pressing matter throughout this season. V-Mart can’t throw out anyone either.
You must have a short memory if Josh’s personality and arrogance is the primary sin he has committed, as right now Clemens and Schilling are still beating him in both departments last I checked.
And if memory serves me right, Pedro was the most prideful of the bunch regarding $ when Schilling came to town.
by Christopher B on Apr 5, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Brandon Moss....?
I do disagree with you about Buchholz though. I still believe in him, and this is year to finally shine (or lose it completely, as I can acknowledge the opposition’s viewpoints). Also, while Masterson is clearly no Beckett, he’s useful, and I think I’d much rather have him than a guy like MDC (who we created, incidentally) and RamRam in the pen at this point.
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Apr 5, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Reply Fail
About Brandon Moss, I apologive, Sam Adams and I have been conversing today.
South Coast, absolutely we should miss Justin Masterson. I bang my head on my keyboard because the one sinkerball pitcher we seem to have had since D-Lowe, the one who would benefit the most from an improved D because of contact pitching, was forsaken to a rebuilding team for an aging catcher, who will have to be replaced in the next year or so.
We don’t have a real long reliever or spot starter right now unless we bring up Bowden, and even then he doesn’t seem to have that mental makeup of Justin Masterson. I saw MDC up in the pen last night and nearly vomited.
Ideally, I would have loved to have seen a 2011 or 2012 rotation of Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, Masterson, and starter to be named (now Lackey’s spot).
Having the guy who throws the sinker is a nice change from a hedging all bets on power pitching (see benefits of carrying Wake). I had prematurely hoped Justin would’ve taken Wake’s role, all in all.
I want Buchholz to succeed, and like you said, time is starting to run out from him.
My point is that people trumpet our farm pitchers as if Peavy, Santana, Lincecum, King Felix, and Greinke played for Pawtucket last season, and that we can expect to ship Bowden or another guy to seamlessly patch a hole that will show up by the deadline in a 1 for 1 trade. It doesn’t work like that. Lester is an abberation, not the rule. Just because you think your old stuff is awesome does not mean you’ll get a great return selling it on eBay.
We’ve been spoiled by recent farm system success in the past five years or so, but that can dry up tomorrow.
Here is the rare opportunity where the organization had a chance to sign a very good (if not elite) pitcher willing to sign for a shorter term contract than they would have had to pay on the open market LACKEY. We have a fair idea of how he’ll likely perform in this park, against the league’s batters, as a clubhouse presence, and we have full access to his medical records.
If they had let Josh walk, then you have Lester, Lackey, and Buchholz for a rotation for the next two years, as Wake has signed the two-year contract rather than the rollover extension. What was the other option, extend Dice-K? I would have had diarrea for a week.
Clemens, back at Sean, is one of the most despicable people to pollute this sport during this generation, and it took Pedro to make us quickly forget how much of an *sshole he was.
The contract signed was not a declaration of Josh being the greatest pitcher ever. It was a deal that simply makes sense for the organization. Buchholz is unproven, Lester has had only two good years (but admittedly has promise for sustained success), and it gets rocky after that. Matsuzaka can’t show up to the park. Wake is Wake. What we bought was someone who normally should keep the opposition’s lineup quiet enough to allow Boston to win. If you want to rank him as the Ace or the number 5, if he goes out every fifth day and puts up over 150 Ks a season, I’m satisfied.
Give me a catcher who can throw out a runner trying to take second. That’s what’s more important right now.
by Christopher B on Apr 6, 2010 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions
"Give me a catcher who can throw out a runner trying to take second. That’s what’s more important right now."
Actually, that’s pretty unimportant.
As for our farm system’s success, you seem to consider it to be more about luck than it really is. Admittedly, some is involved (a cavernous malformation? Seriously?), but the reason for our success is that we’ve scouted, spent, and developed very well. The question shouldn’t be why do I consider Casey Kelly “the likely answer from within”, but why you don’t? If not him, then why not Stolmy, Mendez, Fife, Doubront, Bowden, Tazawa, Britton, or Weiland? There are no sure things in the prospecting game, but that’s why the Sox’ system is likely to succeed—it takes a high-volume approach, with the expectation that at the very least 1 or 2 will pan out. I would be immensely surprised if none of these names could provide a legitimate middle-rotation arm within 2 or 3 years’ time.
You suggest that we’re tyrying to sell our crap for others’ gold, but that’s just not the case. Kelly is routinely listed as a top-40 if not higher prospect. We have seen that Hagadone and Masterson were worth plenty (though you seem to have a surprisingly low opinion of Martinez), too. Lester is the exception, yes, but that’s only because he’s one of the best pitchers in baseball right now. To expect a very high level of output from this system is not at all unreasonable.
USG
Clemens
Is one of the top 10 pitchers of all time. Schilling was dominant for a decade. Pedro is the greatest pitcher of all time. Beckett has had one great year.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Pedro very well might be the best pitcher ever
I agree about Pedro. Nostalgia for the original masters aside, Pedro pitched through the steroid era and put batters to shame. He was remarkable.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
Just being technical,
but I would argue that Beckett is not a top 5 pitcher in the AL.
I prefer Sabathia, Verlander, Greinke, Felix, Lester, and probably Cliff Lee.
I’m just being nit picky, and Beckett is definitely on the fringe of the top five, but probably not quite there.
'Would tend to agree
FIP last year puts him at 7th among pitchers with 200 innings.
xFIP puts him at 5th.
His biggest problem is consistency. Streaks of brilliance. Streaks of … ‘what the?’ …
But overall, still very, very good.
Jon Lester is your ace, period.
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by bestbostonsports on Apr 5, 2010 4:32 PM EDT reply actions
Great Deal Is Right !!
I think xmas has come early for the nation !!!…………..on a sad note i got banned on pin stripe ally (hanging head in shame)…………lol
by RED SOX are #1 in my heart on Apr 5, 2010 5:26 PM EDT reply actions
LOL. What did you say?
Join the NLL community at http://www.nationallacrosseleagueblog.blogspot.com/
by bestbostonsports on Apr 5, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Banned Fan From Boston
LOL i don’t remember it was last night !……no cussing i know that. oh well
by RED SOX are #1 in my heart on Apr 5, 2010 6:53 PM EDT reply actions
Being patient
really paid off last night. I was on the verge of anger with this team, but I held back to let the game play out. I was really happy I did because all in all, this team looks really solid on offense and defense. HOWEVER, I have this deep feeling, which maybe I should also suppress at this early stage, that Beckett has ALREADY seen his better pitching days. Hope I’m wrong and that he can still muster many great performances, but it seems to me that the last dozen or so times out (or more) he just isn’t the dominant pitcher he used to be!
Welcome back NG
Nice to see you after a long winter. Not your typical “sky is falling post” :) I have this deep feeling, which maybe I should also suppress at this early stage, that YOU have already seen YOUR better posting days…. :)
"Hating the New York Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers and cheating on your income tax." -- Mike Royko
by sox-inda-south on Apr 5, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Pure ad hominem post
Totally unnecessary and unproductive!
by NG on Apr 6, 2010 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions
It was a joke NG
Hence the two smiley faces in there. I was hoping you would able to see the humor in it and remember that you’re still a member of OTM family even if we tease you like this.
"Hating the New York Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers and cheating on your income tax." -- Mike Royko
by sox-inda-south on Apr 6, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe your fears will end on justified
But who knows how things will go? Beckett is a better gamble than banking on prospects at this point, and we’re fortunate that the Red Sox have the kind of money that this won’t be crippling if it doesn’t work out.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
For Beckett
it’s really about having a consistent curveball. That’s his key and they were talking about it on the NESN broadcast all night. He couldn’t get a curveball over for a strike all night to save his life. If that doesn’t happen they’re gonna ignore it and sit dead red and that’s it. Curveball are feel pitches. I suspect his next outing it will be sharper and we’ll see the Beckett we expect to see. Beckett is no longer the most talented of the group, that’s obvious but he can still quiet a lineup when he’s on. That’s worth locking up for 4 years. Atlanta won 10 division titles in a row just because of their Big 3. In our division especially pitching is paramount and Beckett would’ve been the top FA pitcher on this year’s market and we locked him up.
This seems to be fair for all sides.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
5 "F"s
So, I think we can feel safe in assuming Sean O is one of the F votes…who’re the rest? Yankee fans?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
You obviously didn't see
http://www.pinstripealley.com/2010/3/24/1387863/new-york-yankee-notes-beckett-a#comments
Yankees fans realize that Beckett is overrated crap, and the vast majority were horrified to have him on the club. The disturbing part is “McDaniel” calling him a “meat head”, which hit a bit too close to home. Other than that, pretty much everyone said he sucks.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
Most of those posts are saying "I'd prefer to have Lee"
With the biggest reluctance being adding another massive contract to a Yankees payroll already bogged down with CC, AJ, A-Rod, Teix, and soon probably Jeter too.
USG
It's not worth arguing with this guy Ben
It’s like arguing politics with Bs.uf.
Beckett >> AJ
enough said.
"Hating the New York Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers and cheating on your income tax." -- Mike Royko
by sox-inda-south on Apr 5, 2010 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions
An 80 million dollar joke.
Someday the Yankees will pay for their spending….someday…
"Hating the New York Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers and cheating on your income tax." -- Mike Royko
by sox-inda-south on Apr 5, 2010 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
No, they'll just keep stealing from the taxpayers.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
I would have no interest
in Burnett for anywhere near that contract.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
I can't account for what Yankees fans think.
They cheer for the MFY.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
I have a five-tool player in my pants.
ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Hey this extension is fine, as long as they are willing to give at least this much to papelbon. If they dont, then this is fail.
I sincerely hope
You don’t want Papelbon signed to $17m a year.
Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway
the number doesnt matter. If theyr willing to give that to beckett, an aging semi-consistent “good” pitcher, then why shouldnt a young arm with a career 1.8 era.
and my point being, i think theyr setting a bad precedent by locking up their older guys for top dollar. Its going to make it harder to keep the younger more important talent, and as long as they do that, then i dont care how long they sign beckett for.
Because Beckett is a starter.
Papelbon is a closer, the single most overvalued position in the game. They’re absolutely going to let him walk come free agency, and they’ll be right too.
USG
i agree theyr going to let him walk, and i think its a big mistake. Consistant closers are hard to come by to say the least, and we got pretty much the most consistent one around (minus a game in last years playoffs). The chances of bard instantly turning into a great closer are really slim.
We don't need Bard to "instantly" turn into a great starter
He’s got 2 years. After that Paps will be gone (and rightly so), and it’ll be Bard’s turn if he’s up to it
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Apr 5, 2010 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Obviously meant "great closer" there
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Apr 5, 2010 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
yeaaaah probably. If papelbon doesnt show signs of wear though i think they should really consider trying to keep his career here. Hes got hall potential for sure.
Hall-of-fame closers are not worth more than above-average starters.
The baseball world assigns way too much importance to pitching in the 9th inning. Sure, there’s some guys that just plain can’t do it, but generally speaking they’re just really good relievers—the type of guy Bard projects to be.
USG
Consistent closers are almost indistinguishable from consistent relievers, you'll find.
The fact is they’re just the best of they’re particular group of players, and paying them like the best or even near the best of starters, who pitch something like 3 times as many innings as closers, is just a poor allocation of funds. Think about it, would you be for paying Albert Pujols $20 million a year if he only could have 200 at bats?
Meanwhile, it’s not like Papelbon is the be-all-and-end-all anymore, either. 2009 was a notably bad year, as his walk rate shot through the roof. Over and over Papelbon put himself in horrible situations and just barely managed to avoid giving up game after game. Let’s not rely on that type of performance continuing, especially from a position notorious for guys flairing out on a moment’s notice.
Bard is great, will be great, and will let us spend over 10 million dollars elsewhere. I’ll take that any day over giving Papelbon a long-term, expensive contract.
USG
Not to mention this isn't top dollar.
Top dollar is 6-years, 120 million. And they do lock up their young talent (See: Lester, Pedroia). When they’ve tried to do that with Papelbon, he’s rebuffed them because he wants to hit FA ASAP, where he knows he’ll be overpaid like guys like K-Rod are, and probably get a bunch more years than he’ll actually be able to perform.
USG
eh once you get above 17 mil a year thats top dollar in my book. 20+ is unreal-dollar. I think its too much for beckett, but i dont mind if it doesnt stop them from making the signings they need to.
You can't really just classify contracts as "average", "big", and "really big".
3-5 million dollars here and there is the difference between starting James Loney and Albert Pujols.
USG
Not to mention years.
Beckett at 4 is remarkably short and low-risk in comparison to other pitching contracts. Signing a closer who relies almost exclusively on velocity to anything more than 2 or 3 years is just asking for trouble.
USG
we’l see. I think paps may be one of the rare exceptions to closers who burn out, and thats what theyr going to have to decide. But i doubt they’l sign him.
I don't think he's any type of exception to said rule
No one’s denying that when everything is working for him Paps is one of the best closers in the game. But there are concerns about that.
He walked more people than he ever had last year, his number of pitches thrown has steadily increased even though he hasn’t increased his innings pitched. His groundball rate dropped last season and his strikeouts have been on a 3-year decline.
DFA Beckett
by South Coast Ghost on Apr 5, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Paps might be a top two closer
But a closer has a MUCH smaller effect on a team than a starter. Paps will not be worth anywhere near the contract he receives as a FA.
Tweet by Ed Price of Fanhouse
He’s a fantastic follow, btw…
Pitchers thru age-29 season w/100+ W, “ERA+” >100, SO/BB > 3.0, SO/9 IP > 8.0: Clemens, Pedro, Johan Santana and Beckett.
http://twitter.com/ed_price/status/11660429566
Bullpen Banter
www.bullpenbanter.com
twitter: @alskor
by alskor on Apr 5, 2010 10:05 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I wonder what happens if you eliminate the 100 W bit.
USG
by Ben Buchanan on Apr 5, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
That's what I was thinking, too!
Still impressive and impressive so many are Red Sox.
Bullpen Banter
www.bullpenbanter.com
twitter: @alskor
Hm...
If it includes his age 29 season, then probably. If not, then the wins will be a problem.
But if he continues as he was last year, the K/BB and K/9 will both make their way up there.
USG
I assume "through" means "includes."
Otherwise they’d have to say something else. But it’s still a pretty sweet club to be in.
Hmm...
I like the idea in principle, but I’onno. This little part in the back of my brain is screaming at me “Brandon Webb! Erik Bedard! CARL PAVANO!” Maybe I’m just being paranoid, but it did the same thing when the Sox signed Lowell in 2007.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Bedard and Pavano were always injured
While Webb was yet another victim of the WBC who hasn’t proved to be anything more than a 1-year injury situation, which can and will happen to everyone. Beckett has missed a few games, but nowhere near on the level of Bedard and Pavano, and mostly due to things like blistering which isn’t the same as their fragility and has been dealt with.
USG
I really don't like people blaming things on the WBC
Have there been more pitchers injured the two years it was played compared to others? Or is it just our high profile guys. People do get injured.
Eh, I don't have the data to back it up, but just logically speaking it makes sense.
Guys don’t get the benefit of spring training easing them back into baseball, and are instead thrown straight into the competitive WBC, where they play hard before really getting themselves back to the point where they should be
Either way, though, the more important thing is that Webb just has one injury. So long as he comes back strong this season, there’s no reason to worry about him that much.
USG
Injury Clauses?
None? Hmm, makes me grade this as a B. Injury-related clauses would have made this a better deal; however seeing as how the deal is for 4 years, it makes it a bit better.
Stats-wise, I’m sure there might be a bit better out there in FA this season (e.g. Cliff Lee maybe?), but I don’t think so. Beckett’s got a 3.81 lifetime ERA (counting his single start this season), and during his last 4 seasons, he’s been pitching on average close to 200 innings a season. If you want to compare stats, let’s look at C.C. Sabathia, shall we? He’s got a 3.63 lifetime ERA and is a bit over 200 innings a season. Both pitchers are basically 30 as well. Sabathia has given up more hits, ERs, HRs, and BBs, but that’s a wash cause he’s got more IPs.
However, while Beckett has had injury concerns, who would you rather have, looking at their respective contracts? Beckett for 4 years at $68 million is much better IMHO especially as it’s a shorter deal.
And eventually Sabathia’s IPs will catch up to him, no matter what it will. If we were comparing both pitchers for the same contract time and money, then I’d take Sabathia; however, we can’t.
Sure Beckett has tendencies to be stubborn and arrogant in his pitching style, but I think we should less of that going forward. I would think we have the past 4 years. Maybe not as much as many of us would like, but seeing as how he’s one of the few pitchers that has come from the NL to the AL and done decently, you really can’t complain.
Just some food for thought really.
insurable perhaps, but are they insuring it?
I know Henry has said they don’t tend to insure their long term contracts (which is why they so frequently get hung up on medical issues)
Personally, I think that's why Beckett & Sox agreed on 4.
"You know you're having a bad day when the fifth inning rolls around and they drag the warning track." - Mike Flanagan, Baltimore Orioles pitcher, 1992.
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