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Around SBN: Roy Nelson Willing to Pay for His Next Opponent's Drug Test

Jon Lester Struggles in Red Sox Loss to Twins

If you haven't received the memo, Jon Lester historically struggles at the beginning of seasons.

It seems that 2010 is no different.

Lester allowed four runs, nine hits and three walks in his five innings of work. It would be all the Twins would need en route to a 5-2 victory over Boston.

Star-divide

Game notes:

  • David Ortiz had an RBI double and then proceeded to give one word answers to the press after the game. He also struck out twice. What a shocker.
  • Marco Scutaro went 2 for 4 at the leadoff spot.
  • Jacoby Ellsbury missed today's game after colliding with Adrian Beltre on Sunday. He may miss a few more games.
  • Dustin Pedroia hit a sac fly in the 8th to score Jeremy Hermida for Boston's last run.
  • Mike Cameron allllmost hit a home run. But it was deemed foul after replay.
  • The Red Sox have never won a game at Target Field. Yes, a .000 winning percentage. We hope they can finally break through on Wednesday.

John Lackey on Wednesday.

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Can't get much worse right?

The Red Sox offense isn't an issue,- until its an issue.
President of the official trade Jacoby Ellsbury campaign.

by gizmosandy on Apr 12, 2010 8:44 PM EDT reply actions  

One word: injuries

knock on wood

2010 Portland Sea Dogs: The Greatest Minor League Team Ever

by BoldandBrash on Apr 12, 2010 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Today was highly annoying

But it could be much MUCH worse. I saw a couple of things I liked this game.

DFA Beckett

by South Coast Ghost on Apr 12, 2010 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

true

bullpen is starting to balance out a little, the 2 guys today – 1 run 3 innings in mop up, respectable.

run production is high or low – not consistent. today low (5 runs per game is break even)

7 hits – low 9 is average

lester was almost ok, not too, too bad.

drew’s rumored neck injury or whatever, may have something to it. ells was dinged dnp.

defence remains very good.

stopping the stolen base threat needs work or a miracle

papi is struggling with bad inside pitches from lefties. his big hit was against pavano (rightie) and an outside hi corner pitch that papi hit good but was possibly only protecting the plate. he needs to layoff the inside trash or go back on the ……

pavano pitched very good – kept batters off balance and hits scattered (4), walks low (1)

our majic number stays at 159

by Mick Lowe on Apr 12, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

disagree that Lester was OK

He was clearly NOT in control of his pitches.

He had good velocity, but something must be off with his mechanics because his location was terrible. Those first two innings were an exercise in missing the strike zone when he wanted to throw a strike and missing worse (over the middle of the plate) when he wanted to throw a ball (Mauer’s hit).

Throwing 60 pitches to get through two innings is not ‘almost OK’.

I’m not worried long run about Lester, because his history shows that he and Farrell will fix it. But he was not even close to ‘almost OK’.

Not worried at all about the stolen bases. If we pitch better, those guys aren’t on base to steal. Also, while VMart’s throws were all consistently crappy, I didn’t really think he had a chance of getting any of those guys – they all had huge jumps.

Agree that Papi needs to lay off the inside stuff.

You know that Papi would love to just get pitchs floating over the outside half of the plate.

The problem is that ‘tight inside’ is almost exclusively what is being thrown at him by lefties because they want him to hit into the shift. He can’t surrender the inside completely because they’ll just get him out on called strikes on the inside part of the plate. What he’s got to do is a better job of fouling those off or getting enough wood on them to get them over the shift (or the wall). This is timing. Much of spring, facing a variety of pitchers including minor leaguers who aren’t so focused on him, Papi probably saw a wider variety of pitches. Now, in the regular season, he’s getting a different profile of pitches thrown at him so he has to adjust.

by mmmmm on Apr 13, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

the thing that scares me about Papi

is when he’s getting those fastballs floating on the outside part of the plate and watches them go by for strike three, while he’s whiffing at everything inside, no matter how inside it is.

by wolf9309 on Apr 13, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, i hear ya.

On the other hand, the one ‘positive’ thing i see in Papi is that he is still taking pitches. He’s seeing 5.00 pitches per PA – that’s extremely high.

It may be that, as you allude to, that he’s being TOO selective and watching good pitches go by, but that’s FAR better than the opposite case.

by mmmmm on Apr 13, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

what do you think about

moving papi up in the batting order?.

he would be better than nickie “little” johnson.

billy beane had jeremy giambi lead off back in 2002(?).

it’s not about speed as much as it is about on base.

but only against righties.

by Mick Lowe on Apr 13, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh yea, mmmmmmmmmmm

the 70’s have called and they want their “hear ya” back.

get with the 221st – its “feel ya”

feel me?

by Mick Lowe on Apr 13, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

keep your day job

stay away from open mike night

by mmmmm on Apr 13, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then of course

To strikeout you have to see at least 3…

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Apr 13, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

agree

i don’t think papi likes outside pitches – he likes pulling the inside pitches. it just seems like that’s his batting persona.

i’m sure thay are working on it, but..

i wonder if pull hitters are pull hitters from their first at bat to their “last dying day”.

by Mick Lowe on Apr 13, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

At his best...

He would foul off any number of pitches outside and wait until the pitcher missed inside on something he could drive. It seems now that Umpires delight in calling pitches six inches away off the plate for strikes against him.

by alskor on Apr 13, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

good points

he’s not getting the respect by anyone that he’s become accustomed to.

he needs to turn that around

by Mick Lowe on Apr 13, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

He really did use to intimidate umps into giving him that outside call.

He doesn’t have that anymore and the umps are getting their payback now. I 100% believe that. Once Papi opens up to protect the outside (especially on the road where there’s no Monster) he has trouble locking into and catching up to fastball inside. He was always able to foul off stuff inside too until somebody left something fat.

by alskor on Apr 13, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

i agree with you

you put a little more detail into your sum on lester – but i think we kind of meant the same thing – don’t send him down yet.

radiohex had a neat ditty breaking down lesters pitches and came up with lester struggling with his 2 seamer but hitting 66% with his other pitches.

bottom line – in connecticut speak – “almost ok, not too, too bad.” or in massachusettsian “He had good velocity, but something must be off with his mechanics”

he and Farrell will fix it

by Mick Lowe on Apr 13, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

The loss sucks.

But an off day after it really rubs the salt in.
We need Lackey to be our stopper.
Go Sox!

" Play Ball "

by went9 on Apr 12, 2010 9:01 PM EDT reply actions  

WTF is up with all the off days

It seems like a lot early in the season.

2010 Portland Sea Dogs: The Greatest Minor League Team Ever

by BoldandBrash on Apr 12, 2010 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

MLB gives an off day after the home opener for a rain day.

But it sucks for us to have another home opener off day but this time on the road.

" Play Ball "

by went9 on Apr 12, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alex Gonzalez has 4 home runs so far this season

The Red Sox offense isn't an issue,- until its an issue.
President of the official trade Jacoby Ellsbury campaign.

by gizmosandy on Apr 12, 2010 9:10 PM EDT reply actions  

who will hit 10 first him or Papi ?

The Red Sox offense isn't an issue,- until its an issue.
President of the official trade Jacoby Ellsbury campaign.

by gizmosandy on Apr 12, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would bet the under on both right now.

But the easy answer is Ortiz. Doubt Seabass gets near that number.

by alskor on Apr 13, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

David Ortiz has 2 more RBI than Jason Bay so far this season

Your point?

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Apr 13, 2010 7:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Drew Palmer folks !

The Red Sox offense isn't an issue,- until its an issue.
President of the official trade Jacoby Ellsbury campaign.

by gizmosandy on Apr 12, 2010 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ha ha ha.

(I thought he was banned.)

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Apr 13, 2010 6:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mike Cameron

Finally found his power stroke…hit a foul home run (unfortunately), and a 405 foot fly out.

by Drew Palmer on Apr 12, 2010 9:35 PM EDT reply actions  

It'll be interesting to see the line up on Wednesday against Slowey.

Beltre, Lowell, and Martinez all rake against Slowey. To get Beltre and Lowell in the game, Tito may need to play Lowell at 1st base and DH Youk.
Tito gets a day to get his ducks in a row. Very interesting…

" Play Ball "

by went9 on Apr 12, 2010 10:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Because THAT would make sense.

Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.

by mystman995 on Apr 12, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

But Lester was our Ace...

What happened? He’s supposed to win us 20 games and carry us to a World Series, he doesn’t seem very ace like to me at the moment.

Sodomize Intolerance

by sonicdeathmonkey on Apr 12, 2010 10:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Wow, you're reassessing Lester after just two starts?

First, wins are not a good measure of a pitcher. Teams don’t need 20-game winners to be successful. Also, aside from his walk total, Lester hasn’t pitched abysmally. After two starts (a VERY small sample), he has a 3.54 FIP and 4.22 xFIP. Those numbers are close to new ace John Lackey’s 1-game totals (3.44 FIP 4.35 xFIP). Right now, the opposition has a .422 BABIP v. Lester.

BTW, Lester finished April 2009 with an ERA of 5.40 (4.16 FIP 3.36 xFIP) and a high BB-rate. In April 2008, he had an ERA of 4.31 (5.40 FIP 5.24 xFIP) and also had a high BB-rate. See a trend?

Let’s not jump the gun. The season is 7 games old.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Apr 13, 2010 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's too bad that wasn't mentioned in the post, the monkey may have been less confused.

Oh, wait. It was.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Apr 13, 2010 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I feel pretty confident after watching both his starts

in saying that he is having huge control problems. I think that part of the reason the BABIP is inflated at the moment is because he is getting hitters to 3-0 counts pretty consistently, so the hitters tend to know what is coming and what to do with the ball.

Not that I think this is a giant problem for Lester, I think he just needs a couple of starts to get his feet under him and will have a pretty monstrous year. When he’s not at 100%, control is where he lacks. Absolutely, hands down the best Sox pitcher on the team from all I’ve seen.

by wolf9309 on Apr 13, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

I think he’s got a mechanical issue somewhere. He looks too deliberate – like a golfer who takes his club back waaaay toooooo sloooowww, instead of gliding it back naturally.

But I’m not worried. His release motion looks smooth in the sense that I don’t see any signs of stiffness or soreness and his velocity is good. If his velocity was off or he looked like he was hurting I’d be more concerned.

But he is clearly not hitting his spots. Has he changed his grips?

by mmmmm on Apr 13, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

My post...

Was meant to be more sarcastic sorry for sounding overly serious. I legitamately love Lester, I’d rather have a guy who could rattle off 15-18 wins at the end then someone who starts out hot then just drops off. My post was meant for the people who where saying Beckett isn’t the Red Sox ace anymore was all, because even though I do like Lester, Beckett is still the better of the two I think.

Sodomize Intolerance

by sonicdeathmonkey on Apr 13, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you're named after

High Fidelity instead of the real life band, you’re forgiven.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Apr 13, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

everyone likes beckett

glad to see sean agrees with your “because even though I do like Lester, Beckett is still the better of the two”.

by Mick Lowe on Apr 13, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is...

after the High Fidelity band.

I think Lester has it in him to not only be better than Becket but maybe even be a great, however having the potential to be so and actually being it, much like acceptance and forgiveness (which I’ll take lol), are different things.

Sodomize Intolerance

by sonicdeathmonkey on Apr 14, 2010 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Let's trade him for a reliever!

He’s worthless!

Westmoreland recently asked his son how he was feeling, and the response the father received didn't surprise him. "I'm going to be in Portland next year," Ryan said.

by radiohix on Apr 13, 2010 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Carl Pavano has more wins than Baltimore and Houston combined

And, even better, as many as the highly-touted “offseason winners” in Seattle.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Apr 12, 2010 10:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Admit it Sean

You secretly love Beckett, don’t you?

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Apr 13, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wow

Keep me in mind next time. I’d be happy to take your tickets.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Apr 13, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have a nice little cadre of folks

But always happy to have more. Some of the Beckett games I’ll probably go just to take pictures, so I won’t have to watch any of the game. Or I’ll just stop @ SRO for the bottom halves of each inning.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Apr 13, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

when they are checking out your jaw on monday

you may want to have them look a couple of inches higher

by Mick Lowe on Apr 13, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brain's fine

it doesn’t like seeing arrogance toss fastball after fastball.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Apr 13, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Leave Papelbon out of this

Why buy the cow, when you get the sex for free?

by return2greatness on Apr 13, 2010 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Apr 13, 2010 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like this.
David Ortiz had an RBI double and then proceeded to give one word answers to the press after the game.

@#$% the press, pile of vultures.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Apr 13, 2010 6:58 AM EDT reply actions  

It doesnt matter

because if he doesnt do better than this he’s gone no matter what… but the press started hounding Ortiz on DAY 2 of the season. They should be ashamed of themselves.

by alskor on Apr 13, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

remind me of lawyers

just dumber

ticks, the both of them – living off of others

by Mick Lowe on Apr 13, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's unfair to lawyers

A lot of them are really good people, many of them work pro bono for people who can’t afford to pay them.

Lawyers are like baseball fans, the majority of them are really great people, but you only notice the obnoxious and loud ones.

If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Apr 13, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

i agree with you

it was a bad attempt at humor.

i mean no disrespect to anyone making a living at whatever career path they chose.

re-reading it now, i could see how that sounds bad and unfair.

hopefully, no one was offended.

by Mick Lowe on Apr 13, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's a couple lawyers who are regular posters on OTM, actually.

Although I can’t remember who they are.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Apr 13, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I actually have a law degree.

But I like lawyer jokes and am not easily offended.

by alskor on Apr 13, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was the other thing I should have said.

“They’re pretty laid back”. ;)

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Apr 14, 2010 7:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

But with all the money they make, it'd be unethical NOT to do pro-bono work

I feel like there’s a Yankee joke in there….

Surgeon General's Warning: K-State-Mizzou basketball may increase the risk of high blood pressure. Please consult your doctor prior to watching any of these games.

by mystman995 on Apr 14, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

On Lester pitch selection last night

Clearly his 2 seamer was off:
He threw 21 of them, 10 for strikes and Zero whiff. His Change up and Cutter though were fine: 61.54% and 64.29% stikes respectively 23.08% and 17.86% whiffs rates respectively.
he’ll be fine!

Westmoreland recently asked his son how he was feeling, and the response the father received didn't surprise him. "I'm going to be in Portland next year," Ryan said.

by radiohix on Apr 13, 2010 9:43 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Lester's 1st 2 starts last year

2 Losses
11 IP
19 H
11 R
11 ER
2 BB
10 SO
3 HR
9.00 ERA

by BobZupcic on Apr 13, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jon is working too slowly

When pitching best, he gets the ball and throws

This year, so far, he is too deliberate. Does not get his rhythm.

Maybe pitching to Victor contributes to the slow down. But for whatever reason, Jon needs to pick up the pace. Should be fine.

by Frank Malzone on Apr 13, 2010 11:20 AM EDT reply actions  

Pitching to VMart didn't bother Lester last year

Let’s not read too much into two starts.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Apr 13, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Frank Malzone = Joe West???

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Apr 13, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I buy it.

Im really thinking more and more that VMart is just a subpar defensive catcher. I don’t really like his gamecalling, his blocking or his throwing. Its still worth it since his bat is so good, but I’m having a hard time seeing him back next year if he doesn’t improve. Obviously SSS and way too early, but this stuff concerned me last year, too. I believe this is why VMart hasn’t been extended (along with seeing if he will hold up for a full season behind the plate).

by alskor on Apr 13, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

plus he's hit into 2 dbl plays - that i'm sure, is related to luck

and sample size.

but i bet theo didn’t call him up last night and offer 5 years @ $80m

i like a solid, defensive and on base type catcher, with an attitude. a molina!

stolen bases bug me – seems like a weakness to allow them. and what the hel1 is catcher indifference? who came up with that? if the guy has a heart attack walking to 2nd base – are the wizards of baseball saying the catcher won’t run him down?

by Mick Lowe on Apr 13, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

The SBs are always going to be a problem

because our pitchers are so slow to the plate… BUT VMart couldn’t throw out Prince Fielder if he fell.

by alskor on Apr 13, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not only that

Victor threatens to airmail the ball constantly, allowing extra bases.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Apr 13, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dont think any of its a major issue and I doubt it holds us back this year...

Just saying I think it will all be a big check in the negative column when it comes to committing multiples years to a guy we already weren’t sure could stay behind the plate for the length of his next contract.

VMart as a 1B/DH sucks. No way that happens. The Sox are too smart for that. A C/1B/DH hybrid is still possible, I suppose… but I don’t love it. Not sure there will be enough catching options around for us to rule that out, though.

by alskor on Apr 13, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Westmoreland recently asked his son how he was feeling, and the response the father received didn't surprise him. "I'm going to be in Portland next year," Ryan said.

by radiohix on Apr 13, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Prospect coming up in the minors

A good one too but I forget his name.

"Hating the New York Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers and cheating on your income tax." -- Mike Royko

by sox-inda-south on Apr 13, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Max Stassi?

He won’t be ready for a few years though

DFA Beckett

by South Coast Ghost on Apr 13, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

disagree

WAY too small of a sample.

Longer samples (i.e. multiple seasons) suggest he’s fine, overall an average defensive catcher.

by mmmmm on Apr 13, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do they?

He’s always had a reputation as a pretty sketchy defensive catcher.

by alskor on Apr 13, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Indeed

Where are these samples?

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Apr 13, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

...grumble .. makin' me work ...

Catcher is one of those positions that are so hard for folks to quantify defensively.
People tend to pick stats that are simple and highly visible when building impressions and the one highly visible thing that a Catcher does is try to throw out runners. So folks jump all over that stat. Personally, I hate that stat because it depends so much on the pitcher.

Well, I’ll go ahead and include that one and do my best to be impartial:

CS%
Over Victor’s 9 seasons, the AL avg for CS% is 29%, though in recent years it has been lower (~27%).
Victor’s career avg for CS% is 24%. BUT that is a little skewed by last year, especially the second half with Boston, when he only posted a miserable 11%, as well as 2006 which sticks out as a bad year at 18%. As recently as 2007 & 2008 he threw out 32% and 37%, respectively.

That suggests that if he had any help at all from the pitchers, that he is at least capable of throwing runners out at a decent clip.

Thus I look at his CS% numbers and I see, basically, an average catcher.

Fielding:
Catcher fielding is primarily dribblers and pop-ups. The league average during Victor’s 9 seasons for converting fielded balls into outs by Catchers is 92%. That is exactly Victor’s average. ’Nuff said here.

Fielding bunts is a bit trickier, as they get pushed into the no-man’s land between the C, the Pitcher and the corner infielders. The league average was 86% during Victor’s 9 seasons. Victor’s career avg for turning fielded bunts into outs is 76%. Again, though, if we actually look closely, we see that that’s based on a very small total # of events (49) and the number is heavily skewed by 2006 (when I am thinking maybe he had some specific throwing issue (injury?) given the CS% that year). Outside of that one year, his fb20% is 82%. Again, essentially league average.

’Catcher’s ERA’
This is a dubious stat, since it is obviously so dependent on the quality of your pitching staff. Over a long stretch, though, assuming you’ve caught both good and bad pitchers, it might have some value. Victor in particular has caught both great pitching staffs and crappy ones. At any rate, over Victor’s 9 years, the AL average for catcher ERA is 4.38. Victor’s career ERA is 4.41. Statistically identical.

Total Runs Allowed per 9 innings (RAvg9)
Accounting for unearned runs partially includes C defense since even if an E put a runner on, you still would like to keep them from coming home. The league average for total runs allowed per 9 innings during Victor’s 9 years is 4.75. Victor’s is 4.75. Again, statistically identical.

The latter two are worth looking at year-by-year. In years where he has caught poor pitching staffs, those numbers go up. In years where he has caught good pitching (including Cy Young winners) those numbers are down. This tends to suggest that Victor is not doing anything to help poor pitching but also not doing anything to hinder good pitching.

In sum – everything about Victor screams: PERFECTLY AVERAGE DEFENSIVE CATCHER

Now, on offense, he is anything BUT average. He is way, way above average at that.

And that is by far the most important factor, imho.

by mmmmm on Apr 13, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

But all those stats are, I'd say, about as dubious as CS% as far as measuring a catcher's worth is concerned.

The most important thing a catcher does is stuck in that intangible pitcher handling, game-calling, etc. mess. Meanwhile, initial looks at framing show that pitchers can effect a huge change by making balls into strike. It seems likely that those results are inflated just looking at the numbers logically, but still. Then there’s wild pitches and passed balls, etc.

Plus, at the rate things are going for Martinez right now, those stolen bases could easilly knock a win or two off his worth, and that’s a HUGE deal.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Apr 13, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I never claimed any of these stats were gold

but taken individually OR as a group, they all point to Victor being … average.

The framing data study needs a lot of refining. Currently its scale seems a bit amplified – the consensus seems to be that is some sort of effect caused by the fact that it isn’t just the catcher but includes pitcher & ump effects. The one big question is how to correlate the magnitude of that study’s results with catcher’s ERA. Nevertheless, even if we accept that study, what it is saying is that for both 2008 & 2009, both VMart and Tek had slightly beneficial framing effects:


Effect on ERA: 2008 2009
VMart -0.06 -0.13
Varitek -0.05 -0.04

However one feels about the accuracy of the framing study overall, these two numbers basically sit right in the middle. I.E. Average.

On Passed Balls/Wild Pitches – there is a study with projections for block percentages for 2010 here.

That study projects Varitek as super premo man (+5.56 RAA) for blocking passed balls and wild pitches -- of course it helps that Tek doesn’t catch Wakefield.

It projects Martinez at +0.02 RAA - i.e. perfectly average. And of course, VMart DOES catch Wake.

Look, I’m trying to be very clear about this – I’m am NOT saying that Victor is a great defensive catcher. But I just don’t see any real evidence supporting that he is a bad defensive catcher. And I see a LOT that suggests that he is, well, average.

Yes, the CS% numbers that he (and Tek) have posted last year and this year suck. But I’m going to argue strongly that this is a SYSTEM problem, not a catcher problem.

Look at Tek’s numbers. Tek has never been great at throwing out runners, but prior to the Terry Francona era, he at least consistenly threw out 25-28%. After Francona arrived, his numbers immediately dropped and he has never thrown out more than 24% in any year since. And note – again – Tek has only rarely caught Wakefield during that time so his CS% is not largely impacted by the knuckleball – i.e. it would be worse if he did.

by mmmmm on Apr 13, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you're reading that ERA effect wrong.

Given that the way you read it, the ERA gets lower as the number of extra strikes called drops.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Apr 13, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

oops - change 'slightly beneficial' to 'slightly detrimental'

doesn’t matter to the main point – both catchers sit squarely and firmly in the middle of the pack.

Do you disagree with my main point? Is there any substantive stats that really prove out that VMart is anything other than an average defensive catcher?

I mean, really its a little frustrating that folks are allowed to float that assertion (VMart is a bad defensive catcher) and then not provide the evidence to back that up.

by mmmmm on Apr 13, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

...grumble .. makin' me work ...

no one said being a blogger was easy – but think of all the money you make and all the girls that throw themselves at your feet.

it seems that in general, all catchers are about average (by present measurement techniques). the thing that distinguishes them apart, besides the name molina, is having a decent ops, getting their share of timely hits, above average leadership skills & knowledge of pitch calling. as well as people, er, pitcher (handling) skills.

some good catchers have an attitude or swagger about themselves and /or the role they play for the team/organization. carlton fisk & thurman ‘crash’ munson are the best examples. they fought, cats & dogs, husband & wives, etc….

throughout history, the deities of baseball have liked big guys to do the catching.

i would go to puerto rico and the first molina i found playing shortstop would be signed and converted into a catcher.

good athletes, with heart will be the new standard for catchers.

measured by pitchers and coaches and their offense. wp, passed balls & stolen bases my not affect the bottom line as much as would be expected. who knows.

by Mick Lowe on Apr 13, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: The Tito Effect
Tek has never been great at throwing out runners, but prior to the Terry Francona era, he at least consistenly threw out 25-28%.

Let’s compare Tek before and after Francona became manager, since you seem to be implying something with that quote.

In the six seasons prior to Tito, Tek averaged 27% CS. During those years, the opposition averaged roughly 107 stolen base attempts per season. Not counting last year, Tek averaged 23% CS in Tito’s first five years as manager. During that time, teams only averaged 80 stolen base attemptes per season.

A few things worth noting: First, Tek was already 32-years old in 2004, Tito’s first year as manager. Tek’s decline probably has more to do with age than the manager. Remember, there has been more than one pitching coach since 2004. Also, since Tito has been manager (again not counting last year), opposing teams ran less against the Sox than they did during the Grady Little and Jimy Williams years. When you compare Tek over the years to the rest of the league you see that he has always been average to below-average at throwing runners out.

1998 – Tek (28%) AL Average (31%)
1999 – Tek (27%) AL Average (32%)
2000 – Tek (25%) AL Average (31%)
2001 – Tek (26%) AL Average (29%)
2002 – Tek (28%) AL Average (32%)
2003 – Tek (27%) AL Average (30%)
2004 – Tek (23%) AL Average (31%)
2005 – Tek (24%) AL Average (29.5%)
2006 – Tek (22%) AL Average (28.5%)
2007 – Tek (24%) AL Average (26.8%)
2008 – Tek (22%) AL Average (27%)

Tek’s decline is related to both age and an overall increase in the success of AL base-stealers. I don’t think Francona’s managerial style has hurt Tek.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Apr 13, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

hoccumb slowcumb for lowe and tek

not too shabby

agree 100% with the age factor. i can’t believe he has lasted this long.

tek has always been under rated.

he had a very good post season in 2004, maybe one of the best for a catcher this decade.

he finally got recognition and was selected to the all-star team, i think in 2005.

it has been a downward trend since then in all categories. he’ll make the red sox hall of fame and maybe come up for vote for cooperstown.

getting old sucks

by Mick Lowe on Apr 13, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

that doesn't quite line up

There is a distinct shift down in Tek’s line in 2004 that doesn’t correlate with the AL line. Just plot them on a graph. The AL line doesn’t really appreciably ‘fall’ until 2007. Tek’s line ‘falls’ dramatically once – 2004, then stays put.

I would be the first to agree that part of Tek’s decline might be due to age – but why the two distinct plateaus? There is no steady decline from 98-03. There is no steady decline from 2004-08. In fact, relative to the AL line, why is Tek ‘holding up’ so well 04-08 in the face of improved AL base-stealers? Given the AL line’s decline from 04-08 added on to your assertion that Tek’s age is a factor, shouldn’t Tek show a correlated, even amplified decline during those 4 years?

People do show sudden shifts in performance, such as due to an shoulder injury. But the lack of decline from that point seems unlikely.

You word your post as if I am being critical of Francona here and that is not the case. I am pointing out that there is imho a systematic independent of the catcher with the Red Sox that affects the CS% – and i believe it is simply because the pitching staff is coached to focus more on the hitters and not prioritize holding runners. And personally I don’t see that as necessarily a bad strategy – to a point, obviously.

Doug Mirabelli doesn’t have as large of number samples so his numbers bounce around a bit more, but he, too, shows a similar shift (I’ve indicated the #SB attempts and teams, since Doug moved around):

1998 7 57% SFG
1999 25 40% SFG
2000 67 33% SFG
2001 91 35% BOS & TEX
2002 56 34% BOS
2003 51 24% BOS
2004 54 15% BOS
2005 28 29% BOS
2006 48 19% BOS (42, 17%) & SDP (6, 33%)
2007 45 22% BOS

Granted, Mirabelli inherited a tougher assignment in BOS, since he caught Wakefield. But even so, just like Tek, his BOS numbers post-2003 seem distinctly lower. You can, of course, point out that Mirabelli was also no spring chicken and subject to age decline. But again, his decline doesn’t follow a steady path and also doesn’t correlate at all to the AL decline.

Kevin Cash only has two seasons with a semi-decent number of SBAs: 2004 in Toronto he threw out 44%. In 2006 in BOS, 30%.

All of this holds up to the eye test: Just watch the runners and see how big of a jump they have before the ball is half way to the plate. Runners get huge jumps off Red Sox pitchers.

by mmmmm on Apr 13, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's most likely age-related decline

Until last year, when Tek absolutely sucked, fewer players attempted steals during the Francona years. If the Sox changed their strategy, teams were very slow to adjust.

When you gauge Tek v. the rest of the AL, he averaged roughly 4% worse than league average prior to Francona and has been roughly 5.4% below league average under Francona. The decline isn’t surprising when you consider that he was 32-years old in 2004. I looked at a few modern catchers. While I didn’t look at the league averages for them (I don’t have the time), I did notice a decline in their CS% after the age of 32/33.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Apr 13, 2010 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay, I can see that the opponent SBA% dropped since Francona arrived

The ratio of Stolen Base Attempts to Stolen Base Opportunities for the Red Sox dropped noticeably since Francona arrived. So that matches your statement that teams ran less since then than before. What I don’t get is that the success rate went up noticeably since then as well. Wait … its starting to take shape and in some ways I have been looking at this both wrong and right.

Here is Boston’s data of interest (not just Tek’s):


Year SBO SBA CS% lgCS% SBA%
1998 2226 190 31 31 8.54
1999 2289 217 27 33 9.48
2000 2190 206 23 30 9.41
2001 2324 274 19 29 11.79
2002 2145 168 30 32 7.83
2003 2340 136 26 30 5.81
2004 2266 154 20 32 6.8
2005 2294 116 25 30 5.06
2006 2342 131 18 30 5.59
2007 2174 139 23 27 6.39
2008 2244 128 25 27 5.7
2009 2348 174 13 26 7.41

Aside – jeeze 2001 sucked – people ran & ran & ran on us … I think i blocked that out …

At any rate, the interesting things are that the SBA% did indeed drop post-Tito while the CS% went down. Note that the baseline of overal SBOs remains fairly constant.

That seems counter intuitive – why would fewer folks try to steal when their chance of success has gone up?

It may be a filtering effect. It may actually be that under Francona, it actually became harder to run for the joe average base runner, but not for the really good base stealers. As a whole, those(fewer) guys would attempt to steal fewer bases, but be more successful when they tried. Does this make sense?

The things I am still having a hard time accepting though are the idea that Tek’s ability to throw dropped off all at once and then stayed there for 4 years – that doesn’t look like age-related decline. I also don’t see how Martinez goes from 32 & 37% in 2007 and 2008 to suddenly as bad as he was in 2009. Victor was only 30 entering last year AND has not caught that many games in his career, having started as a C relatively late. So I don’t see how ‘age’ explains it. Its too pat and doesn’t really tell me anything.

Given that all 4 catchers who have moved from outside this system into it have experienced a dramatic drop in CS%, something still seems systematic at work.

I only looked anecdotally into a few other catchers who have gone past age 32. Ivan Rodriguez actually improved on his CS% for ages 33-36 vs age 30-32. Jason Kendall’s have been all over the map as he has moved from team to team: 18% at age 31, 30% at age 32, 20% at 33, then 43% at age 34! Vance Wilson showed a steady, almost linear decline in CS% from age 28 straight to age 33 when his career stopped. Benito Santiago played for multiple teams but was very consistent and showed no real decline in CS% until age 38. Brad Ausmus also was fairly consistent and didn’t drop off until age 36. Jorge Posada actually improved from ages 31-34 (to 37%!) and has since declined, though was still a respectable 28% last year at age 37.

That’s by no means exhaustive, but it sure looks like there is no hard and fast rule that Catcher’s must decline in CS% around age 32. If anything, age 36-37 looks more definitive – which could explain Tek’s side of our troubles as of last year.

Ultimately, we have deviated far from the original point – I still don’t see anything substantive to support the assertion that Martinez is a ‘bad defensive catcher’. Unless we think ‘average’ is ‘bad’.

by mmmmm on Apr 14, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

VMart's CS% dropped due to injury

Prior to 2008 he was good at throwing runners out.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Apr 14, 2010 7:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm going to take issue with you saying that it is a system effect, not a catcher effect

because the fact is, while the pitchers may be slow to the plate in general, VMart makes throws and they’re just terrible. Frankly, the way his throws look, I’d rather he just threw the ball back to the pitcher. I won’t blame him for having a low CS% (though it doesn’t make me happy), but he can’t get overanxious and overthrow on every single base-stealer.

I think we all agree that CS% is not a full good judgement of catcher. Personally, without having access to the pitching staff and discussing how comfortable with him behind the plate (I don’t think these are “intangibles” so much as “hard to access information”) I don’t feel comfortable making a great judgement call on how he is at the position. I do know that he is bad at throwing and, though he seems pretty good at catching pitches away from where he expects them, he doesn’t seem great at blocking pitches to me. So yes, I see indications that his footwork and blocking are average or below, so the questions are- how is his game-calling and does his offense outweigh any weaknesses on defense?

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I love having V-Mart on the team, I think he’s a huge asset to the lineup. I don’t think I have the information available, however, to determine if he’s good enough behind the plate to remain there for 3-4 more years, so I’m pretty much going to be supportive of what the FO decides on this one (as long as they don’t decide to put our beloved captain back there full time)

by wolf9309 on Apr 14, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Early small-number statistical trends

Pitching is not yet working totally as we’d like:
SO/9 5.2 (13th in AL, avg=6.4)
BB/9 3.9 (10th in AL, avg=37)
H/9 9.6 (11th in AL, avg=8.6)
ERA+ 97 (10th in AL, avg=107)

Hitting is definitely doing OK, but surprisingly mainly due to power:
OBP .338 (6th in AL, avg=.333)
SLG .417 (1st in AL, avg=.408)
OPS .818 (2nd in AL, avg=.740)

Defense is doing ‘OK’, but not helping the pitching as much as we’d like yet:
BABip against: .289 (9th in AL, avg=.284)

Note that other teams that we expect to be strong on defense, like SEA, are also not yet clicking (their BABip is .326).

So these numbers are all based on way too small of numbers to really tell us much.

by mmmmm on Apr 13, 2010 12:37 PM EDT reply actions  

So... how much of the slow start for many of our pitchers can be attributed to not have Tek behind the plate

Varitek for all his offensive, any throwing woes could certainly call a great game.

"Well Suzyn, in life all good things come to an end."- John Sterling

by Pesky Fan on Apr 13, 2010 6:15 PM EDT reply actions  

and

"Well Suzyn, in life all good things come to an end."- John Sterling

by Pesky Fan on Apr 13, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now THAT is a good point.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Apr 13, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

just the 2 seamer seems out of control

lester has had a way of working through physical problems. it’s got to do with “drive” not luck.

my money is still on him

by Mick Lowe on Apr 13, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

So now Lester's walks are VMart's fault?

I don’t get this – how did Lackey and Wakefield manage to pitch so well in their starts?

This is getting crazy.

by mmmmm on Apr 13, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are a cruel, cruel man, Ben Buchanan.

And your mother is probably mad at you! :-D

by mmmmm on Apr 14, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

neither did Lester

and that should be abundantly obvious to him as the one throwing it. The catcher is calling the game only in the sense that he names pitches. If the pitcher doesn’t want to throw something, he’s not going to.

Let’s keep in mind too, that 2-seamer was an issue last start. It wasn’t as issue the first start, when he threw 22 of them, 14 for strikes, with 2 swings and misses. In the first start, his biggest issue was he had no curveball control- threw 14 of them, only 5 for strikes, and not a single swing and miss (that’s not so unusual from what I see, but not hitting the strike zone is). Frankly, not sure the curve was any better on monday, he just didn’t throw quite as many.

In any case, the point is, I don’t think that the 2 seamer itself is anything to worry about. I agree with you Ben at the point you seem to be making that they should have realized he was not hitting spots with the 2-seamer before he threw 21 of them (though both should have noticed that). No reason though, to believe that the 2-seamer will continue to be an issue. I’d be more worried about the curve, except that it’s only 2 starts into the season and it’s safe to assume he’s still getting his mechanics under control.

by wolf9309 on Apr 14, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

it wasn't totally a missing pitch

he threw strikes about 45% with it.

they were probably trying to work out the kinks.

he needs the pitch, he improved over all (strike zone) after the first couple of innings.

by Mick Lowe on Apr 14, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah he was throwing some strikes

(you mean the curve, right?) and I understand he needs to work on it, but he wasn’t missing by a little, he was way off his location on it. I don’t think a regular season game is the place to be working on a pitch you’re struggling with, do that in side sessions or throw some live BP. On a normal day, from the small sample I’ve randomly selected, he’s hitting about 66% strikes with the curve. Not suggesting he ditch it, I’d just suggest he throw it less until it’s working (which is what he did, so I’m not really complaining about that at all)

by wolf9309 on Apr 14, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

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