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Beckett, Lackey, and the "Bridge Year"

On Saturday, Gordon Edes broke the news that the Red Sox might not be willing to go to a fifth year for a Josh Beckett contract extension. If we accept this report to be accurate (which is far from a guarantee), some questions arise, especially given the team's willingness to sign an older and somewhat more injury prone John Lackey to a lengthy deal. Why not go to five for Beckett?

 

The most obvious answer would be that the Sox see something in Josh Beckett's medicals they don't particularly like, similar to how Jason Bay's offer shrank to a two year deal over the summer. But maybe this is something entirely different—perhaps even an attempt to sink negotiations while still appearing to have made an effort.

 

Early in the offseason, we were informed the Red Sox would be experiencing a "bridge year". This was interpreted first as an admission that the Sox would not be contenders this year, and then as a statement of a new approach for a year with relatively little help coming from the minors. Whereas in years past the team could rely on new faces like Pedroia, Ellsbury, and Buchholz to fill holes in the team, this year they were forced to turn to free agency, signing players like Adrian Beltre, Mike Cameron, and Marco Scutaro to short-term deals.


The outlier there was John Lackey. Marco Scutaro's two year with options contract was the lengthiest deal of the season other than Lackey's five year commitment. That's a pretty big bump. So what makes Lackey different? My theory is that he's here to replace Josh Beckett.

 

Star-divide

 

Baseball-Reference lists Lackey as Beckett's closest analog in the majors, so if you were going to choose a replacement, Lackey fits the bill about as well as anyone else. When it comes to money, Lackey is actually probably slightly cheaper. After all, his deal was being used as a baseline for Beckett, who clearly wants five years.

 

So why sign Lackey? Why not just re-sign Beckett. He would be a bit younger, and he's proven himself in Boston to some extent. The aim here could be to take advantage of the situation. Consider the Red Sox' payroll this year. At well over $160 million, the Sox are shelling out quite a bit more than they ever have in the past. But it's not at all unlike the team to be willing to take a one year hit to put themselves in the best possible situation to win without fouling up the future. Look at 2007, when the payroll jumped $20 million before settling back down in 2008 and 2009.

 

The problem is that, generally speaking, top talent is simply not available on one year contracts. Except in a situation like this. If we accept that Beckett and Lackey can act as replacements for one-another, then the Sox are in essence signing one of them to a one year, $18 million deal. That Lackey will likely spend the next four years at $3-4 million less than Beckett would cost is a nice added bonus.

 

This would put the Lackey contract into lock-step with the rest of the free agent signings by the Sox over the offseason. Short deals to get us past this dry spell from the minors. Cameron will be replaced by Kalish or Reddick, the rotation could welcome in either Bowden, Tazawa, or Kelly depending on how far along they all are. The only one without an obvious replacement is Adrian Beltre, and if Lars were to have a comeback year, Youkilis could still shift over (though I, for one, am opposed to Youk playing anywhere but first). Over the next two years, the payroll would quickly fall back down to normal ranges as it did after 2007 as the new wave of minor leaguers replaces the short-term stopgaps.

 

One of the biggest concerns I've seen thrown around about not signing Beckett is the idea of seeing him in pinstripes next year. I would say if the Yankees are really looking to sign another ace, they'll get one regardless of Beckett's contract, and quite frankly we should be so lucky that they would sign the more inconsistent Beckett.

 

I'm far from sure about this. For all we know, the Sox are just angling for an injury clause like they have in Lackey's contract. Maybe they're just doing what they usually do, and driving the hard bargain, with a definite (but reasonable) price point they're willing to pay for Beckett, and not going over. But perhaps they think there are better places to allocate their market-value contracts. The minors, after all, are noticeably well stocked in some areas (starting pitching), and barren in others (third base). While generally a player in the minors is supposed to be considered for value and not what role they could eventually play on the team, being in need of a trade generally doesn't help net equal deals. By signing Beckett, the Sox would be showing their hand somewhat when it comes to starting pitchers. They would simply have no real place for their high-minors starters to advance to for around two years, and thus would be dealing from a position of weakness.

 

If the Sox did choose to let Beckett walk, it would not be a popular decision. After all, Beckett has a (somewhat undeserved other than 2007) reputation as the team's ace, and one of the top big game pitchers. But when have the Sox been known to kowtow to public opinion since the current front office group took over? Theo has never been about making the fans happy going into April, but going into October. And if in this "bridge year" shelling out $18 million for one year is the price to keep the magic going without committing to spending too much in 2011, so be it. Maybe next year we'll be able to throw out Beckett for thirty starts once again. But maybe we'll be throwing Lackey out there instead, and not be able to tell the difference.


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Having written this, I now expect that Beckett will sign within the day.

It happened when I was talking about Paps going to arbitration. Why not now?

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 8:20 AM EDT reply actions  

Five year deal

The Beckett will get his five years. There will be language in the deal voiding the fifth year if he fails to pitch x number of innings (probably 180 per or 350 total) in years three and four. Similar to the issues they dealt with in JD Drew’s contract.

by JD from CV on Mar 29, 2010 9:38 AM EDT reply actions  

The whole "Lackey is a replacement for Beckett" thing gives me a headache.

A literal headache.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".

by Bloggy on Mar 29, 2010 9:52 AM EDT reply actions  

Hah

I think we all know your stance on the Lackey signing by now.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I know. :(

I try not to be TOO repetitive.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".

by Bloggy on Mar 29, 2010 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bloggy is right, though

Beckett is better than Lackey.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Mar 29, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

That cannot

be rationally questioned. Beckett may frustrate. Beckett may be an injury risk (an important issue here). But Beckett is probably in the top handful of starters in the AL. In fact, while Lester was better by xFIP last year than any year Beckett has ever had, he was significantly worse in 08 than any of Beckett’s last 3 years. Beckett has a 13% HR/FB ratio (career 10.5%) thus his ERA was higher than it should have been but was still a pretty good 3.86. His xFIPs over the last 3 years are 3.4 or so every year. That is very, very good and very very consistant. He was only “better” in 07 because of a luck suppressed HR/FB ratio. His xFIP in 08 was BETTER than in 07. How many starters in the AL are better? Lester, CC, Grienke, Hernandez, Lee and Verlander are the only that you could really say that about. And some of these guys have not shown that to be true year to year.

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Beckett and FIP have a complicated history, as it were.

As much as I believe the advanced stats are far better predictors than any other stats, I believe there are exceptions to those rules, and I believe Beckett is one of them.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

good or bad?

I.E. – do you feel Beckett is under or over valued by FIP?

Why?

Just curious as to your thoughts here.

by mmmmm on Mar 29, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Over

Since 2004, Beckett only managed to live up to his FIP once: in his awful 2006 season.

FIP is not perfect, after all. More accurate long-term results have been gained both by adding and subtracting components, with the best involving only K-BB. But it should also be noticed that FIP was improved upon when adding some well-measured batted ball components.

I can’t think of any explanation for it, particularly, other than maybe the tendency to give up line drives but not homers on mistake pitches somehow. That would keep both the FIP and xFIP happy while killing ERA. And indeed, in his off years that LD% is a bit high. Beckett’s career average 19.8% LD numbers aren’t bad, but they’re the result of going back and forth between being low and being high. Maybe there’s something to that?

I just can’t imagine him being unlucky in so many straight seasons despite playing on 2 good defensive teams in ’07 and ’08.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hmm

I think that is the wrong way to view it. Beckett has a career ERA of 3.79 and a career FIP of 3.61. That is plenty close for a crude metric that relies explicitly on 3 outcomes and not at all on context. It is not Javy Vazquez we are talking here (a guy whose career ERA-FIP is 3 times larger). He has not been “unlucky” in so many straight seasons. That is STILL the nature of fluctuations.

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Except that these fluctuations never turn the other way.

Beckett hasn’t outperformed his FIP except for the one year when he was laughably bad, which is him just being a different pitcher with injuries. Other than that, Beckett consistently underperforms. The fluctuation is between slightly underperforming, and greatly underperforming.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

??

how do you know what the correlation “time” of fluctuations should be?
Have you studied it? Power pitchers (Schilling and Verlander, for example) are perhaps just not so accurately valued by FIP. Schilling’s FIP was a bigger differential for his career with ERA than Beckett’s. He also went through a stretch where he underperformed his ERA in like 7/8 years. Why is that then so unusual?

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't, and I haven't.

But “Power pitchers (Schilling and Verlander, for example) are perhaps just not so accurately valued by FIP.”

That’s kind of my point.

I’m not knocking Beckett for underperforming his FIP, just that we shouldn’t give him credit we would give a pitcher with the same FIP as Beckett who typically matches it.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

One other thing

beyond getting into an arid discussion on FIP, since we are talking about ERA (results)-Beckett has posted a 3.72 ERA over the last 3 years pitching in a hitter’s park in the best hitting division in baseball. Lackey has posted a 3.53 ERA in a marginal pitcher’s park in the worst hitting division in the AL. Seems sort of a wash (at best). So let’s say Beckett and Lackey is a wash. How many other guys have been better than Beckett by results? CC, Lester, Felix and Greinke. And that is basically it. You might add Lee and Verlander, but those guys have been somewhat to a lot inconsistent. For example Verlander’s 3 year ERA is worse. So, even if one accepts the idea that Beckett is overvalued by FIP (not convinced here) he is a top pitcher.

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, right, the ace comment is under discussion.

Forgot about that.

I would say he’s very, very good. But on a team that spends as much as the Sox despite top minor league production, I expect more, I guess, then what we’ve gotten out of Beckett the last couple of years.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK

we have been through this. There are probably a very small handful of AL pitchers that are demonstrably better than Beckett. One one of these (Sabathia) has shown a track record of this. We just gave a contract to a guy that is not demonstably better (Lackey) that is the starting point of this whole debate. Just saying.

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lackey is not demonstrably better

But he’s pretty close to being a wash, and one of the big parts of the article is that, by signing Lackey, the Sox were giving themselves a big 1-year boost by overlapping the 2 contracts in this one year. It’s rare that you can add a Beckett-level pitcher for one year, and by letting Beckett go, that’s essentially what we would have done.

The idea isn’t that “We are willing to pay big bucks for Lackey so we should be willing to pay big bucks for Beckett.” It’s more about what Sean says (and you agree with) below: “We’re willing to pay one 30+ year-old pitcher long, guaranteed money.” Signing Lackey this year was the only way to have one year where we can have both together.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't

disagree…but I also have no idea at this stage how Lackey will do in the AL East and Fenway. Will he be the same? Will he be worse? If so, by how much? If that was the plan, I think I would prefer Beckett with everything I know right now.

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough, and I agree it's a question mark if this will or will not end up being the right move

(Assuming it’s the move they make at all!)

Just saying that it’s not a straight up exchange of Beckett for Lackey. It’s:

2010: Beckett
2011-2015: Beckett

For

2010: Becket & Lackey
2011-2014: Lackey

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Expect more...........

There it is – I call it the curse of expectations. Once we see great things out of a player, or anybody for that matter, we expect that to be the norm. Even though all stats show Beckett is a top 5 AL pitcher, many question the wisdom in resigning him because he does not achieve greatness everytime he gets the ball; excellence is not enough.
Another thing, what is the point in all this Lackey vs. Beckett and Lester vs. Beckett talk except when it comes to contracts? The idea is to have as many good pitchers as possible, not just one.

by Scoop1981 on Mar 29, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

As I said elsewhere in this thread.

All three have shown themselves to be 5+ WAR pitchers when healthy. Lets just hope they all stay healthy and enjoy the results!

by mmmmm on Mar 29, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thank you

All discussion about retaining Beckett, or any other player, has to be framed by a) comparison to peers, and b) possible and AVAIALBLE replacements. Despite what any esoteric stats show, Beckett is a top pitcher in the AL, period and will be PAID as such by SOMEBODY.

by Scoop1981 on Mar 30, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

i think it is a mistake to expect that tight of correlation between ERA and FIP

I also think that it is a mistake to think of ERA as ‘results’ – as if FIP is not also ‘results’.

Both are statistical measurements. But they are measuring different things. Yes, there is correlation, but it is simply not that tight a coupling that you should expect them to precess back and forth around each other. ERA in particular (and as we all know) measures things beyond the pitcher’s control.

If ERA ends up seeming systematically higher than his FIP would ‘predict’ for a given pitcher that merely means that there may be systematics beyond his control that are affecting his ERA. That doesn’t mean his FIP is not correctly measuring his direct stats.

by mmmmm on Mar 29, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

My problem is that I don't buy that there's always "systematics beyond his control" year in and year out.

He’s moved between teams, had good and bad defenses behind him, etc. If the other shoe is going to drop, now would be the time. Otherwise, the reasonable conclusion to draw is that there’s something about Beckett’s pitching style that consistently makes his ERA higher than his FIP.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

But

as I said, what are the odds that someone posts a FIP that is lower than his ERA in a handful of seasons? Beckett, in his career, has only had 6 seasons with 150+ innings. In 5 of them his ERA was above his FIP. In only one of them (08) was the difference between his FIP and ERA more than 0.2. Could that not be random variation? I simply do not see why not…

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

It could be

But it’s more likely that it’s not. It’s a pretty significant sample size.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

you miss the point

“large sample size” is a meaningless statement. Large compared to what? You need to know the time series decorrelation scale to make such a statement, especially since in most years Beckett’s FIP and ERA are actually quite close, making the sign of ERA-FIP less meaningful in any question of correlation.

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean

but let me throw this out there-if Beckett has, next year, a season that is 200 innings and is the reverse of 08’s FIP-ERA, just ONE season, his CAREER ERA-FIP will be -0.07. Think about that for a second. The sign of the difference likely has a large random component here…

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm gonna have to see your math on that.

I’m coming out with his ERA still being over his FIP by .096

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

.41*107.66 == 44.1406
.10*142.00 == 14.2
.20*156.66 == 31.332
.10*178.66 == 17.866
-.11*204.66 == -22.5126
.19*200.66 == 38.1254
.79*174.33 == 137.7207
.23*212.33 == 48.8359
-.79*200.00 == -158

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

but you missed

the first 24 innings of a big reverse difference plus the fact that you need to add 26 inning of a reverse 08 year and remove his 08-comes to 0.07 I think.

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I did miss the 24 innings yes.

As for the other part, you said if his next year is the reverse of his ’08, not if his ’08 became the opposite of what it is. I included the reverse as the -.79*200 at the bottom.

With the 24 innings, that comes out to about .05

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I said

200 innings of a reverse 08.

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right

Which I interpreted to mean a -.79 ERA-FIP, as compared to a +.79 ERA-FIP. And you said next year, which doesn’t suggest that ’08 would be removed.

Otherwise, your scenario is “If Beckett next year were to have an outlier year that’s half again more of an outlier than his outlier year so far, which was to then be removed from his record, he would have a negative ERA-FIP”

That’s a pretty massive change to be making. Using a similar scenario, I could make Julio Lugo into a 3 WAR player with the Sox.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

absolutely not

it is to say if you remove 1 single year from Beckett’s career, his FIP =ERA is closely as just about any pitcher out there. That shows it is NOT a large sample. Given that the very definition of ERA is arbitrary (who is not to say that a few bad scoring games in 08 created this outlier in the first place?) and I think you get the point. There is nothing compelling in your argument, at least in my opinion. The Julio Lugo point is true-and Lugo played all of 2 full seasons with the Sox and never even posted a 1 WAR year, but if you want to argue that you can make this look like the small sample it is-be my guest.

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your method actually doesn't remove it, exactly.

Straight-up removing it—simply not counting ’08 in either category—leaves Beckett at .088. The point with Lugo is that you are asking me to insert a huge outlier in exchange for removing a smaller outlier in the opposite direction.

Maybe, just maybe it is just random coincidence that Beckett’s numbers have turned out this way. I’m not trying to write a mathematical proof here, I’m simply giving the logical conclusion: If through 1400 innings, Beckett has consistently been a pitcher with a FIP lower than his ERA excepting his one year that appears to be a true outlier (balloning ERA and FIP both), it is not unreasonable to expect him to continue this trend.

I don’t have the numbers to prove that 1400 innings is a reasonable sample size—though it would be very difficult to find such a sample size since a pitcher is forced to change his approach as he gets older and loses velocity. In a world where even the most durable pitchers don’t manage 5000 innings in their careers, it seems unreasonable to ask for much more within the confines of Beckett still being, in effect, Beckett.

Could it be random variation? Yes, absolutely. But it’s not at all unreasonable to assume that it’s not. All I’m saying is that if I’m flipping coins against some guy and he keeps winning over and over, it’s entirely possible I’ve just gotten really poor luck to start this series off. But damned if I’m not going to want to check for a two-headed quarter.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure there's anything to 'buy'

even if his ERA is systematically always going to be ~.2 above his FIP – whether through externals or something ‘systematic’ about himself – my point is that doesn’t matter.

What matters is how his ERA compares to other pitcher’s ERA and how his FIP compares to other pitcher’s FIP.

by mmmmm on Mar 29, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is certainly a dilemma

With Lester, Lackey, Dice-K and Buchholz holdovers for 2011 a lot may depend on how Dice-K and Clay pitch. Kelly will probably not be ready next year

Options
(a) Sign Beckett long term
(b) Sign another FA to a short term deal as a bridge
© Allow a Tazawa, Bowden to fill the #5 slot

The Starting Pitching 2011 FA list
Cliff Lee
Josh Beckett
Brandon Webb
Javier Vazquez
Ted Lilly
Jake Westbrook
Tim Hudson
Kevin Millwood
David Bush
Jeremy Bonderman
Vincente Padilla

Pitchers with Club Options
Bronson Arroyo
Matt Cain
Jon Garland
Aaron Harang
Ian Snell
Jeffg Francis
Chris Young
Harang

by BobZupcic on Mar 29, 2010 10:38 AM EDT reply actions  

+1

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".

by Bloggy on Mar 29, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

None of the above

Only the top 4 of this list are real “difference making” starters. Cliff Lee is going to break the bank and he seems destined for the Yankees to replace Petite. The Yankees may decide to retain Vasquez and not sign Lee if Vasquez has a good year. Webb is coming off major surgery. That brings us back to Beckett. Assuming Lee goes the Yankees, Beckett will be the big name for starters and there will be plenty (it only takes two) bidders for his services.

by Scoop1981 on Mar 29, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Insurance

I believe the operative word is not repalcemnet but insurance when it comes to the Lackey/Beckett talk. That being said, I’m also pretty sure the Sox evaluated Lackey based upon his individual contribution potential and value against contract commitment, and not largely for “Beckett insurance”, although that may have been an added benefit.
Theo knows what everybody here should know, there is no more valuable assett in baseball than a top of the rotation pitcher and they just don’t become avaialble very often. Beckett will get his $17×5 from somebody, and I hope it is the Sox and I’m betting it gets done before the start of the season.
Put yourself in Beckett’s shoes; your team just signed an good, but slightly older, never as good, more injury prone pitcher to a 5 year contract and they want to go only 4 with you. My guess and hope is the 5th year will be negotiated out with some type of injury insurance just like Drew and Lackey.

by Scoop1981 on Mar 29, 2010 10:38 AM EDT reply actions  

Personally, I simply doubt that Edes' "news" is correct

or at a minimum is incomplete.

The fact that they just inserted Beckett opening day starter and to also have a second start before the rotation has even wrapped around puts serious doubt to the idea of some medical issue being discovered.

Lacking some medical issue, the longevity of the contract – as compared to Lackey and other comparable pitchers – does not make sense as an ‘issue’ holding up the contract.

Either their is a real issue which goes to actual perceived worth (i.e. maybe the COST of a fifth year) or the whole report is just incorrect or incomplete.

 Edes has not been batting at a high average this off-season so I don’t think he’s a good basis for getting all worked up over.

by mmmmm on Mar 29, 2010 10:44 AM EDT reply actions  

The medical issue would be a long term worry.

Something that gets worse with age, when viewed with his mechanics, what have you.

I just wouldn’t view his being given 2 early starts as a piece of evidence that a medical issue is improbable.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

But I'd give it a lot more weight in any attemtps to read between the lines

than some cryptic tweet.

Sometimes there is fire – but sometimes there is not even smoke.

by mmmmm on Mar 29, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

True

But this is…added smoke. You can’t say there never was any. And I’d say Edes posting something to ESPN is at least something.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

i don't consider 90% of the tidbits posted to most ESPN blogs/twitter pages to be anything

Okay, so maybe that means this is 10% of ‘something’ …

:-D

Seriously, I think this is to tenuous of a wisp – it could be smoke … or it could be the vapor from stinky coffee breath in the cold morning air.

by mmmmm on Mar 29, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent post

Most casual fans undervalue the contributions of Beckett because of inflated expectations and we get to see the good and the bad for the players we watch every day. Many Sox stars have fallen victim to this, including Pedro. Also, most like to “throw out the bum” without fully considering the alternative. There is no “replacement” for Beckett avaialble, save for Cliff Lee.

by Scoop1981 on Mar 29, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

WAR uses FIP, which my issues with re: Beckett have been covered earlier in this thread.

WAR is a great way to value a batter’s actual contributions offensively and defensively in a single year (UZR, while not a great predictor with a good number of flaws, does do a pretty good job of determining how many more plays a player made in any given year), but it can still be improved upon with pitchers. I haven’t seen a lot of work on improving wOBA, honestly, but you look at DIPS and the conversations are endless. The implication being FIP jut isn’t good enough.

As for the Kelly, Bowden, and Tazawa, no none of them can truly replace Beckett in the rotation right away. The point is that Beckett next year wouldn’t be much better than a market level contract next year (especially if you have the issues I do with his WAR). I think Bowden, Tazawa, or even Kelly could manage a positive WAR season, which is all they’d need to do to be worth their contracts. Meanwhile, Aramis Ramirez could be coming on the market with a good year. The Sox will go with whatever provides them the best value.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Are you trying to

imply something about FIP from DIPS? I don’t see the logic. Explain please.

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I'm a bit confused too

Also, I’m not sure about Tazawa or Bowden. They look like the definition of “replacement level” to me.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Mar 29, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think they've been given enough of a chance to say they're replacement level.

After another year of seasoning (they are both just 23) they could be fine starters. Replacement level, for the record, is basically Chris Volstad last year.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK, just to make sure we're clear, the statistic FIP is a subset of DIPS.

DIPS include any and all pitching statistics that intend to remove fielding from the equation.

My point is that work into DIPS has progressed beyond FIP, and continues to do so. The fact that this can be done implies that there are missing or extraneous parts of the equation. These pieces could help explain why Beckett has a tendency to underperform his FIP.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hold on a second

because you add in more linear coefficients to something, it has “progressed beyond”? What are you saying? There is nothing that says DIPS is a better metric than FIP except a weirdly cherry-picked article by its creators.

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

DIPS is not a metric (at least not how I'm using it).

I’m using it as an umbrella term for all defense-independent pitching statistics. What I’m actually talking about are things like kwERA, BsRERA, bbFIP, etc. All of which have smaller margins of error when predicting future performance.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did you think I was referring to dERA?

I could see how it could be interpreted that way. I wasn’t really being very clear.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought you meant

SIERA. My bad if you did not…

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, SIERA.

SIERA confuses the hell out of me, though that too has a low margin of error. But bbFIP just makes a lot of sense. Line drives are bad, and tend to occur a lot more often when you put the ball in the wrong place. Stuff like that.

I think FIP, like so many other early Sabermetric ideas, really were almost too full of themselves. I read Moneyball recently, and was kind of surprised by how much of it just seemed incorrect. Defense is only 5% of the game? Then how do you explain significant differences in BABIP and E-F (I recognize the irony in using that number, but eh) based on UZR?

Bill James’ method was always to throw out a messy, incomplete stat and just let it sit out there to be cleaned up, because it served its purpose not to perfect baseball math, but to get the conversation started. At one point, someone threw out the idea that pitchers can’t really determine whether or not a ball in play falls for a hit, and for the most part that’s true, but it’s not entirely so. So when adding a batted ball component to the FIP equation provides more predicative results over the ensuing 3 years, it’s worth considering that this could be a reason why some players tend to always be over or under their FIPs.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

all of these things

have flaws, that is for sure. However FIP is one of the nicest ones-it is VERY simple and usually quite effective. As for things like tRA (and I guess bbFIP, etc) I have mixed feelings about taking the batted ball profile too seriously. LD% is not even accurately measured, let alone shown to be skillfully managed by pitchers.

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed. As I stated above

I think it is a mistake to think of FIP solely as a predictor of ERA. The numbers are setup to roughly the same scale, but correlation is still left to other factors not controlled by the parameters within FIP.

FIP is a measurement that has meaning in itself for comparing between pitchers. Whether it is the ‘best’ stat is a separate discussion.

I.E. – you wouldn’t compare Pitcher A’s FIP to Pitcher B’s ERA, right?

by mmmmm on Mar 29, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK

But there’s something to be said for being more accurate, and bbFIP generally does a damn good job of guessing. Better than FIP.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unless I misread Tango's post on bbFIP

(which I just looked up) bbFIP is actually a worse estimator of ERA than FIP (but is close and does not use HRs). Am I wrong?

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Woah - not disagreeing with your core point

(That Beckett is more valuable than Lackey – on that I agree), but choosing just the last 3 years seems a bit like a selection designed to over-emphasize your point.

That overlaps with a injury for Lackey which caused a decrease in value for a period that overlapped 08 & 09.

I suppose that is fair if we think Lackey won’t be healthy going forward, but if we want to throw health trends in to our evaluation we should probably include more seasons than just 3.

What happened to 2005 & 2006? During those two years

2005
Beckett – (178.2) 8.36 K/9 2.92 BB/9 3.37 ERA 3.27 FIP 3.56 xFIP 4.0 WAR
Lackey – (209.0) 8.57 K/9 3.06 BB/9 3.44 ERA 3.10 FIP 3.57 xFIP 5.9 WAR

2006
Beckett – (204.2) 6.95 K/9 3.25 BB/9 5.01 ERA 5.12 FIP 4.39 xFIP 2.1 WAR
Lackey – (217.2) 7.86 K/9 2.98 BB/9 3.56 ERA 3.35 FIP 4.06 xFIP 6.0 WAR

2006 was, imho a ‘bad year’ for Beckett and should not be counted as what we expect from a healthy Beckett. But similarly, the end of 2008 (and start of 2009) were not what we should expect from Lackey. Overall, they are both 5+ WAR pitchers when healthy.

As is Lester.

Lets all hope that all three stay healthy for the next few years!

by mmmmm on Mar 29, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was looking at the most recent stats

Because they’re more relevant to 2010 and beyond. Lackey’s best years were 2005, 2006, and 2007 (and he was injured in 2008 and 2009). In my opinion, I’d prefer to have the pitcher that has been better more recently.

Also, if you look at 2005 and 2006, Lackey’s K-rates were elevated compared to his historical numbers; and his HR/FB was very low (for him) both years. That makes those years seem somewhat fluky in much the same way that 2006 was for Beckett. In ‘06, Beckett’s K-rate was the lowest it has ever been and his HR/FB was higher than it has ever been

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Mar 29, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not arguing that Lackey is a better value than Beckett

but I just think it is not a complete picture to include the two prior years because otherwise you are comparing 3 relatively healthy Beckett years to 1 healthy and 2 less-than-healthy years of Lackey. Its simply not a fair comparison.

Including all 5 years, we see what both Pitchers have done when healthy and can also draw conclusions, such as yours, that Lackey has been more recently injured and is thus more of risk (lesser value). Which is completely fair.

As to whether Lackey’s 2005 should be thrown out just because his K rate was its highest – that seems dubious. It wasn’t like it jumped from 5 to 10. He was simply and clearly at his physical peak. Note that his BB/9 rate was also his career highest that year. Probably pure power pitcher at that rate. But while his K rates have dropped slightly in subsequent years, so have his walk rates – even with the injuries of the last two years.

All in all, i totally concur with your conclusion that Beckett is a better pitcher, I just don’t think that its that overwhelming a difference between the two other than Lackey being about a year older (almost exactly 100 more innings pitched). Their career numbers overall are very very similar in most all categories.

by mmmmm on Mar 29, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

6 MORE DAYS

Happy Easter OTM.

Beckett will be a beast.

Whoever said it doesn't matter whether you win or lose, probably lost.

by David Harnden on Mar 29, 2010 12:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Agreed

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".

by Bloggy on Mar 29, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Regardless of your thoughts on Beckett

because I’ve made my thoughts quite clear, do you really want $35m+ of payroll, or roughly a quarter, going to two starting pitchers in their 30s? Beckett and Lackey are both very good pitchers but that’s it, very good. Neither are at the absolute top of their game, and they’re both past their theoretical peak.

Unless we truly believe that there is a longterm solution to shortstop, 3b, RF, CF, C and DH in our farm system at this moment (and I certainly hope Lars, Kalish and Lin/Westmoreland/Whoever step up), that cash outlay is a pretty risky gamble unless you’re talking about top 5 pitching talents.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Mar 29, 2010 12:59 PM EDT reply actions  

I would say we have an answer to SS, RF, and CF.

C, DH, and 3B are much riskier projections, but I would be surprised if we could provide at least 1 of them between Wagner, Exposito, Navarro, and Lars. Of course, that’s talking just the next couple of years. As we get late into those contracts, I firmly believe we can find someone for at least 4 of those positions as you add names like Westmoreland, Fuentes, Federowicz, Middlebrooks (who is apparently looking good in ST), and Lavarnway to the mix.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is this theoretical production

good enough for a contending club in the AL East? There’s a big difference between starting 3B for the Pirates and the Red Sox. I’m hopeful we can continue the youth movement, but I don’t want to get monetarily locked into one position (starting pitching of all things) when we have so many gaping holes at the moment.

Theo has been plugging leaks instead of finding solutions for years now, 2010 being the most obvious case.

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Mar 29, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I feel dirty saying so

but Sean brings up legit points. I do think Beckett lies just outside the “top 5 talent” range (although there are probably only 5 or so clearly better starters in the AL right now) but he is now in his past peak years, and he has always been a bit more of a thrower than a pitcher. Those guys just don’t age as well as guys like Halladay who rely on curveball/sinker type combos. All of this and the cost must be carefully considered. That is why I was not in love with the Lackey contract in the first place.

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

My impression was always that curveball pitchers did NOT age well

Sinker – yes (See Moyer, J.). But my impression was that for most guys who rely on a big bender, that at some point either their arm goes or the curve disappears (probably because they can’t contort their arm the same way anymore).

But I don’t have any stats on that – just anecdotal memories of guys like Greg Olson who were unhittable for a couple of years and then dropped off the planet.

by mmmmm on Mar 29, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Primary

sinker, secondary CB=Halladay. Seems like a good recipe for longevity, but who knows.

by Buzzy on Mar 29, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Solutions?

Like what.? part of the process of remaining viable is flexibility…today’s solutions may not be tomorrow’s. Theo has done an excellent job of locking up the team core (Pedroia, Youkilis and Lester), backing them with younger players who are cost friendly (Buchholz, Bard, Ellsbury) and fillling gaps without losing the bank (Scutaro, Beltre, Cameron).

by BobZupcic on Mar 29, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK

So is this an argument for signing Cliff Lee? The next step is the $20 mil. + category of Halladay, Sabbathia, and Lee to come. The Sox are playing with the big dogs, actually THE big dog (Yankees) here and they have to keep up. Remember, they also have some large contracts(Papi, V-mart, Tek, Lowell, etc.) coming off the books soon. I’m guessing $35 mil. will be also represent less than one quarter of the payroll in a couple of years. And Beckett IS a top 5 AL pitcher and Lackey is not far behind.

by Scoop1981 on Mar 29, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do we have to keep up?

Because the Yankees have been spending 60-80 million more than us for about 6 years since 2003, and in that span we’re 2-1.

The Sox could well be best served by letting the Yanks overbid on guys like Sabathia, Lee, and Teixeira. They’ll win for a few years, and we’ll win for 5 or 6 when they’re paying $125 million to a bunch of old guys who can’t perform.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed. We don't have to keep up with the Yankees.

We have to stay competitive with them. Going dollar for dollar is not the only way to do that.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".

by Bloggy on Mar 29, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just keep up

By “keep up” I don’ t mean spend dollar for dollar, because all teams lose that battle. But when the Sox have a chance to lock up a very valuable, tough to replace player like Beckett, without the Yankees or any other team able to bid, they need to do everything possible to make it happen.

by Scoop1981 on Mar 29, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

But Beckett isn't that valuable if you have to spend $18-20 million on him.

The only value a player has is the value over what you can get for equivalent money.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes.....

in a truly open market that holds true. But we are talking about very limited resources avaialble at a specific time only. This is not the deli counter, they can’t just order $X worth of pitching. Beckett is there for them and them alone for the next few months.
Just speaking for myself, I get absolutely no satisfaction out of a team with a modest payroll that comes really, really close.

by Scoop1981 on Mar 29, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lee is almost 2 years older than Beckett

His last two years have been his best. Almost every projection sees Lee regressing somewhat this year. Webb is a year older than Beckett. He missed almost all of last year and probably will miss at least the first month of this year (of not more time). If the Sox are worried about Beckett’s shoulder, I can see them taking a risk of Webb’s shoulder.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Mar 29, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

It depends on the contract he commands.

As for Lee, of course they have him regressing—these projections are bad at dealing with breakout players.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

It all depends on the reason for the "breakout"

Right now, Lee is injured and there’s no timetable for his return. Lee is unlikely to have another year close to as good as 2008.

I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.

by Drugs Delaney on Mar 29, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

he is, however

probably a bigger injury risk than Beckett.

by wolf9309 on Mar 30, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right

Which brings us back to Beckett being at worst the second best pitcher avaialble, with what we know now, in the next two years.

by Scoop1981 on Mar 30, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jeter, Posada, Rivera

Those contract talks are going to be fun to watch..

by BobZupcic on Mar 29, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm praying for 3 years.

They’ll owe something like $200 million to a total of 10 players, most of them over 30.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Posada actually has two years left on his deal.

And unlike last time, he will have close to no leverage in these negotiations. If everyone stays healthy, the Yanks should have 2 close to mlb ready catching prospects and a solid backup in Cervelli. Jeter is really the only one of the three I worry about.

Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.

by CasanovaWong on Mar 29, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

It still looks to me like Beckett's is a 5-year deal being offered...

with this year being the “bridge” year, then 4 more years at an equal pay to Lackey. Including this year, the contracts will be very similar. Of course, a lot depends on Dice-K’s health, Wakefield’s longevity, and Buchholz’s performance/development. Last year proved you can’t have too much starting pitching (“What will we do when Smoltz is ready?”)

by dsharp on Mar 29, 2010 2:31 PM EDT reply actions  

But what happens

if/when we’re throwing $40m at a broken down Lackey AND Beckett in 2014?

Building Fenway from the ground up - Virtual Fenway

by Sean O on Mar 29, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then I start swearing again.

And probably a couple of “I told you so”s.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".

by Bloggy on Mar 29, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

You can’t have enough starting pitching

Unless it prevents you from filling holes elsewhere.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cant worry about 2014

The Sox can only operate with the facts, options and best assesments avaialble now. Nobody can predict the future with so much certainty. Teams are presented with decisions that need to be made now, not five years from now. Will player X be worth the last year of his contract? Who knows? The fact is that it is going to take $X to sign him NOW, and the Sox want to compete every year.

by Scoop1981 on Mar 29, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

well it needs to be taken into account

they can look at how similar pitchers wear down and if it looks like 2012-2014, Beckett won’t be a valuable pitcher to them, then it’s probably not worth spending that much just to have him in 2011. Certainly some risk has to be taken, but you have to look at each year equally- 2014 won’t matter any less than 2011 does because like you said, they want to compete every year, not just 2011.

by wolf9309 on Mar 29, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly right.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

I have a five-tool player in my pants.

ACTUALLY, advanced metrics show that that wasn't "premature".

by Bloggy on Mar 29, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Spending wildly on old players is what helps the Yankees spend $200 million and miss the playoffs. Spending alot is important, but only if you spend it smart.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

The scariest scenario I can see

Is throwing tons of money at Beckett and Lackey, then not being willing to give Lester the same money. Because he’s gonna want it, and deserve it. The one piece I’d like to see in Boston above any other has to be Lester, with Pedey and Youk being locked up already.

Whoever said it doesn't matter whether you win or lose, probably lost.

by David Harnden on Mar 29, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is something

I didn’t know. I thought he expired after next season. Great to know.

Whoever said it doesn't matter whether you win or lose, probably lost.

by David Harnden on Mar 29, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh God, no.

Not at all. Lester would still be under team control even if we didn’t extend him last offseason.

He’s here till ‘14, unless he’s not worth the money then.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boston Red Sox

Built to last.

Whoever said it doesn't matter whether you win or lose, probably lost.

by David Harnden on Mar 29, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Depends entirely...

…on what happens in the meantime. If the team has had good success in the meantime, I’d swallow a season with Lester, Buchholz, Kelly and Crap Beckett and Lackey. Sure. Why not?

Rock me, sexy Jesus...

by nuthinboutnuthin on Mar 29, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're assuming our natural expenses on a #4 and #5 pitchers are $40 million.

How would you feel about a season with that rotation…minus Youkilis and Drew?

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, I guess the Sox can get away with it

Thanks to the farm system pumping guys out at the rate it might/the fact that we’re paying Daisuke/Wake about 16 million total as is.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

How would I feel?

If the Sox had a $20 million payroll and won the pennant, I would feel GREAT

On the other hand, if the Sox had a $200 million payroll and won the pennant I would feel equally, not one iota less GREAT.

by Scoop1981 on Mar 29, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

No doubt

Too bad we don’t make the decisions about how much the Sox spend. Until the FO shows the willingness to spend at a new level for an extended period of time, I’ll be working with the assumption that they’ll only be spending so much.

USG

by Ben Buchanan on Mar 29, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Minus Youk?

I’m sure they will find a way to retain Youk. Drew is gone soon (2011?). I’m guessing the Sox hope to work in a youngster or two by the time Lackey and Beckett start to decline.

by Scoop1981 on Mar 30, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

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