Adrian Gonzalez - Red Sox Deal Dead?
by Ben Buchanan on Dec 5, 2010 2:48 PM EST
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PrintAccording to a tweet from Jon Heyman, the trade that would have sent Adrian Gonzalez to the Red Sox has fallen through as the Sox and Gonzalez could not agree to a contract extension. While there's no other confirmation yet, if this is true, Red Sox Nation is going to erupt.
UPDATE: Ken Rosenthal concurs.
After the Padres and Red Sox agreed to the trade yesterday, the Sox were given a window of just over a day to sign Adrian Gonzalez to an extension before they would have to either annul or finalize the trade. The deadline passed with no announcement, and now nearly an hour later, it appears that the Sox just could not get it done.
There is a possibility that the Red Sox will choose to keep the trade anyways and continue negotiating, that would put the team's back up against the wall, forcing them to either agree to Gonzalez' contract demands or risk walking away from a deal that saw them trade two of their top-3 prospects for just one year of Gonzalez. For what it's worth, Dan Hayes hears that Gonzalez will not discuss an extension later.
If the deal has in fact fallen through, it's likely a matter of years more than dollars. Gonzalez was said to have wanted eight, while the Red Sox preferred six. The Sox have been burned in years past by deals with older players, which could explain their reluctance to sign Gonzalez into his late 30's.
More as it comes.
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Remember
The Sox might still do the deal without the extension. We don’t know for sure it’s dead yet.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Word is the deal fell through, not just the extension.
And if they keep him without an extension, it’s an awful move.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Not if they extend him during the season.
And I got the same tweet you did, I just can’t decipher it.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Gonzalez' team says they won't talk during the season.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Well then they still have all offseason to talk.
I don’t see the deal as bad, they still get Gonzilla and they still have a huge window to extend him.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
But then they're forced into it.
If he says no to anything but 8, then they either have to walk away with the short end of the stick in the trade or the short end of the stick in the negotiations. It’s lose-lose.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
They can let him go to FA
See that there isn’t another team willing to give him 8/180
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
So now they're hoping nobody else signs him and they get him at the price they wanted
While still giving up prospects? No thanks.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Rosenthal Adds:
Source: “Window closed. No deal.” Trying to find out more
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Come on... Not like he is probably going to cost less when he is a free agent....
I love Lester and Pedroia!!! ITS MAN LOVE!
Exactly.
Yankees will atleast offer him 7/170 to DH. Will probably cost more.
Only the Red Sox though. Only the friggin Red Sox.
The Yankees already have DH, Posada
and then A-Rod. They have Teixera and that is locked their hands.
Rosenthal: Teams still negotiating trade
this is far from over
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
I hope so!
I thought it was normally a 72 hour window. Why was it so short with this?
I love Lester and Pedroia!!! ITS MAN LOVE!
Wow.
No offense but what happened? Did SD see SBNation laughing at them or something?
"Individual players don't win championships, teams do."
Gonzilla wanted a Gonzilla-sized contract.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Two guesses:
1) Gonzo wanted eight years, which would leave the Red Sox paying his 20+ million to be mediocre for at least a couple.
2) Sox were afraid of the shoulder, wanted insurance.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
I'm too pissed off to think rationally right now.
So I’m out. This organization got their titles and think that since we waited 86 years once we can wait some more for our next title. If you aren’t willing to shell out the cash or are worried about injury don’t agree to a friggin trade.
Its called Red Sox.
That is pretty irrational.
Sox don’t lose anything by trying.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
They lose MASSIVE face
They perpetuate the belief that Liverpool is taking all of JWH’s money. They prove that we won’t go for really good players to bring us a ring.
Instead, if we don’t get Gonzalez, we’ll get stuck with Beltre’s idiotic contract and maybe have a chance at the wildcard. Gonzalez at 8/180 is better than Beckett, Lackey and Beltre for 200.
Face doesn't win championships.
The FO has never bowed to fan’s demands.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Face does win championships
Because you need fans in the goddamn stadium to pay for it. And with the Red Sox dramatically slipping in popularity, showing that you’re too cheap to get great players is a good way to kill support.
There will always be Red Sox Fans
Didn’t the 86 years before 2004 teach you anything?
Where did I say there would be empty seats?
I’m saying that ratings are already slipping, the Sox had to completely BS the numbers to continue the sellout streak, and it’s falling.
If they win games next year, fans will watch.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
You need good players now and 8 years from now.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
We're having the reverse argument we normally do
Gonzalez is worth it, and $20m today is less than $20m in 2018. If we get 7 good years out of 8, that’s great. We’re not talking a Beltre or a Lowell who will not be able to hit for at least 2 years of a contract.
I see no reason to believe
That Gonzalez isn’t of the calibre that can maintain for at least the next 6 or 7 at .900+. If he becomes an .850 DH then, whatever.
No reason?
Aside from, y’know, players not doing it very often at all?
And “whatever?” An .850 OPS DH for two years is why people didn’t like the idea of resigning Martinez!
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
that is a good point, but will he be in 8 years?
I’d still give him 7 years, though.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
The difference between Youk and Gonzalez at first
Might not be that much less than the difference between V-Mart and an average catcher.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Dude's 29
Is he really going to drop off the face of the earth at 35?
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
So how would Gonzalez look at age 38, when a Mark Teixeira deal would finish? Let’s just say it doesn’t look good. Only 32 times in the last 10 years has a player 35-or-older managed an OPS of .900 or higher. That number is down to 17 at 36-or-older, 10 at 37-or-older, and only four times in the last decade has a 38 or 39-year-old player hit that plateau (and, yes, a good few of these seasons can be attributed to steroid users such as Barry Bonds and Rafael Palmeiro). A $22.5 million DH hitting sub-.900 for three-or-more years? Count me out.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Yes, I saw that
Good job finding it. We’re talking about one guy though, not a bunch of people. Adrian keeps himself in really good shape, he’s like the power-hitting version of Mike Cameron. He could be one of your four people.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
He's in good shape at 29, but not ridiculous world-beating shape.
People who write off the age issue because “well he’s probably gonna be a freak of nature!” are fooling themselves.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
I'm not saying he's a freak of nature
Just that he takes care of himself like a Pujols or a Thome. Better to pay the big bucks for him than to Fielder or whomever else comes down the pipeline.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
I want to be clear, I'm not saying not doing the deal is a horrible thing
I’m not ready to riot with everyone else. But this was a gaffe no matter which way you look at it.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Maybe "politically"
But it was the right move to try it regardless of outcome. They lost nothing more than “face” while taking a shot at gaining a lot.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
They proved that they're clueless
You can’t go into a MAJOR story like this and not get it done. It shows incompetence to the wider world.
Could you see the Yankees EVER doing this?
Literally none of that has any baseball value at all.
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USG
Uggh
This isn’t about baseball value Ben, this is a disaster in dealing with your fans. The team can’t afford to just shit over everyone. Very expensive tickets go on sale in under 6 days, why spend $125 for a mediocre loge box for a team that doesn’t want to be good?
Because they only "don't want to be good"
based on December 5th with a ton of free agents and trade possibilities out there.
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USG
You seem to not want to get my point
Do you think people are excited to see a third place team of nobodies and spend $125 a ticket plus $50 parking to do so?
You seem to not want to get my point.
The standings are currently 0-0 with 4 months before the next game.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
So if you're a normal fan
You’re ok with spending $150 base for a ticket to see a team that finished 3rd last year and didn’t improve? You think this will actually be the norm?
"Didn't improve"
vs.
“Didn’t get Adrian Gonzalez”
4 months to go.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
I'm not sure...
… I want my team to be run based on fear of what a normal fan might think. You’d have a poorly constructed team of over-the-hill players being paid much more than they are worth and no farm system. I’d rather have a winning team.
Wait 'til next/this year?
"Laser show. So relax."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 5, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
I believe they can still make the deal though
They get a ring now, the positions that Rizzo and Kelly were trying to take over are sort of taken up, one of Doubront or maybe even Ranaudo should be ready by 2012 to take over for Dice, and we have Youkilis at first. Re-sign Gonzo at FA and it’s all good.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
No, there isn't
but you get a taste for how Gonzo performs in Fenway, then you offer him 7/157.5.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
And some other team offers him 8, and you're down two prospects
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Only one of which might have had a shot at your team.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Not with Youk taking up first.
Are you gonna play a 25 year old at DH?
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Or we could let Youk DH in a year or two.
Why not? It’s not like Gonzo was going to be playing first and Youk third for years to come.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
I still do the deal
Even if Gonzo leaves, Youk’s signed long enough to develop another Rizzo.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
And we still have Lars and Lavarnway in the system
We already know people don’t consider Lavarnway a C, why not move him to first?
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Lars is still developing.
it’s just taking him a while.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Your first accurate post.
Congratulations!
You’re learning.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Because if he can be a catcher
Than his value shoots through the roof.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
But if he can't be a catcher
then he rots in the minors.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
No, then he spends one year switching.
At most.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Can we agree that in three years
We’ll know whether or not Lavarnway is a C or a 1B?
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Okay, how about Lars?
We should know if he can contribute in 3 years, correct?
With all that information available to us, if Adrian walks in FA we should have either one new 1B, a good C, or the time to scout Youk’s replacement on the FA/Trade market. Hell, Rizzo had a .330 OBP, in AAA, he may not even have made it up in Boston.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
With Adrian, not without.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
I'm sure that sounded cool and all in your head
but good players make a good team. Especially in this sport.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Yes and No
The Yankees have better players then the Rangers but the Rangers performed better as a team then the Yankees.
All I am saying is there are alot of great players in the MLB but it is how they play as a Team that matters.
The Yankees lost to the Rangers because they had no pitching or timely hitting, and because in a short playoff series, anything can happen.
I must have missed the part where the Rangers won based on camaraderie, charisma, and a scrappy underdog mentality, not the fact that they scored more runs.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
Baseball is an individual game first and foremost
Played in a group, but individual in nature.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
I'm going to watch pretty much no matter what,
unless they’re losing 110 games and are worst in the league.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
But didn't you know?
If the sox don’t sign Adrian, that’s what will happen.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
No, I'm saying it's a PR disaster
From a team that can’t afford one right now. How many times have you heard a variant of “Red Sox get buzz again” over the last day?
losing face and all of that stuff
is over rated.
you should know that, sean
just messin’ – loosing up the mood
The bottom line is:
Mr. Bundchen’s football team is currently 9-2, the Celtics have won 6 straight and are killing it, and for some reason the Bruins haven’t lost all of their fans after the playoffs last year. The Red Sox have done nothing to improve in several seasons.
By god I hate you.
Lol Your town is just amazing at sports this decade!
"Individual players don't win championships, teams do."
negotiating ploy
you can’t get a deal this big done in 40 hours.
they are probably working like dogs as we type.
this will happen.
there is no sense in throwing in all of the gold – we still have youk at first and beltre is still a stop gap solution
theo – stay the course
Beltre won't be a stopgap
he’s looking for 4-6 years.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Oh come on.
Dayton Moore and a bunch of other incompetent GMs.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Still
If they blow their shot at getting A-Gon, it’s just going to reinforce the idea that the FO aren’t willing to take that extra step to add a HUGE improvement to the team.
Go to hell Jon Heyman
This is a tense situation, nobody gives a blow about Jeter.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
He's twatting about Mo as well
Makes me want to throw my phone at a wall.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Heyman can go drown in a lake.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
For what it's worth
I see shades of Jim Thome in Gonzo. I bet he could still be raking at age 38
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Except almost nobody hits at age 38, athletic or not.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
With the stick, I do, too.
He’s gonna mash for a while my friend.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
From what I've read, the sox wouldn't even go 7 years,
which I think is a little ridiculous because you’re already going 6 and it’s Adrian Gonzalez.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Oakland's out of the Beltre talks.
Just thought I’d throw it out there.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
I don't disagree.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Why the hell
wouldn’t they go 7 or 8 for a 29 year old with excellent health history? Because of a labrum procedure in his non-throwing shoulder? Ridiculous
Because he'll be 30 when the deal kicks in
And 35+ year olds do not hit baseballs very well.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
can we offer same prospects to seattle for Felix and/or ichiro? just trying to think positive
You've seen me on your tv
i can see the headlines tomorrow
Gonzo Deal Dead
’
Sox loose massive face
Nation goes ‘Gonzo’
Red Sox Suspend Operations Pending Foreclosure Proceedings
Storied 112 year old franchise is gone from American lore
No, what you will see is
“Red Sox refuse to offer top money for top player. Ownership plans on spending money on Liverpool in January.”
"Red Sox offer top money for top player, top player wants more. Ownership still to spend $170 million on team."
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Won't happen
you know EXACTLY how this will be taken in Boston. And Beltre is a pathetic consolation prize.
I know how it will be
But that doesn’t make it the reality.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
The Reality is Unimportant
The team is hemorrhaging support, and this is going to greatly exacerbate it.
All the fanbase will care about come April is winning.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Depends on how the rest of the season plays out.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
I'm disgusted with the front office right now
The certified ambassador of all things good and great, here at OTM.
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One of the many, proud OTM'ers that cannot stand Josh Beckett.
Again I will say this is the plan they have:
Plan A: Werth, AGonz
Plan B: Beltre, Crawford
The certified ambassador of all things good and great, here at OTM.
DO NOT OVERPAY FOR BELTRE !!!
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One of the many, proud OTM'ers that cannot stand Josh Beckett.
Plan C:
Sign Beltre and Werth then sign AGonz next year
Why sign him then, going to command same or even more money then.
I love Lester and Pedroia!!! ITS MAN LOVE!
More time to negotiate
His agent will realize there aren’t many big market teams who need a 1B
Jon Morosi
Source on #Gonzalez and #RedSox: “Not done yet.” #Padres #MLB
Twitter | "Almost every organization has a guy like Papelbon or Lester" - Dave Cameron 12/29/2005
MLB Network reporting the entire TRADE IS OFF, NOT HAPPENING
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DO NOT OVERPAY FOR BELTRE !!!
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One of the many, proud OTM'ers that cannot stand Josh Beckett.
It's over, I cannot believe this organization did this to the fans.
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DO NOT OVERPAY FOR BELTRE !!!
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One of the many, proud OTM'ers that cannot stand Josh Beckett.
Why would they offer 7 years for Tex and not 7 for A-Gonz.
I love Lester and Pedroia!!! ITS MAN LOVE!
You guys should read the comments for the article on NESN
Unless Theo fixes this and fixes this FAST he better watch his back in Boston
I predict Theo resigns after this
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One of the many, proud OTM'ers that cannot stand Josh Beckett.
Why?
Then he can’t continue ruining the club. Although someone should check area Gorilla suit rentals.
Because this is a giant shit storm he has created here
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DO NOT OVERPAY FOR BELTRE !!!
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shut up
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Are you and Gizmo the same person under two accounts?
All you two guys do is post hyperbolic bullsh!t every single post complaining about sh!t.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
At some point and time you have to take risks with long contracts,
and I think the sox may be done doing that after they risked with Beckett and Lackey.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
They have no problem with the Becketts, Lackeys and Lowells of the world
They’d rather give 4 or 5 year contracts where the player is only good for 2 or 3.
Seriously... Even a down year for Gonzo would not look down with the monster next year....
I love Lester and Pedroia!!! ITS MAN LOVE!
so now we will turn around and give Crawford 7 years @ 20 per
and Beltre 5/70
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TRADE ELLSBURY THIS WINTER !!!
One of the many, proud OTM'ers that cannot stand Josh Beckett.
Agreed.
The certified ambassador of all things good and great, here at OTM.
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One of the many, proud OTM'ers that cannot stand Josh Beckett.
They better not do that shit
If they won’t spend on Gonzo, then don’t spend at all, or at least on those deals listed above.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
From Euphoria to Disgust
The certified ambassador of all things good and great, here at OTM.
DO NOT OVERPAY FOR BELTRE !!!
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One of the many, proud OTM'ers that cannot stand Josh Beckett.
Ugh. I was so excited when I woke up
And now this? UGH. I don’t get it, we give Lackey 5 years, and we are afraid to eat a couple of bad hitting years.
I also don't get why you would make the trade
If you don’t want to pay the man. Its not hard to figure out what kind of money/years he was looking at.
He'll be the starting 1st baseman for the Boston Red Sox on opening day!
Twitter | "Almost every organization has a guy like Papelbon or Lester" - Dave Cameron 12/29/2005
Honestly
I’d be willing to exchange 2 “down” years of Gonzo for 5 of his BEST years. Wouldn’t everyone?
It's not like we're getting the 5 best for free.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
It depends what his best is and what his down is.
We can look at charts all we want, but the fact is that he’s never played in Fenway, and we can’t be certain what he’ll do there.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
tomkrasovic
A-Gon agent J. Boggs: “All I can say is, it was very disappointing it could not work out. We’re very busy at this point.” #Padres. #Red Sox.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Ben, would you be upset if we gave him 8/180?
IDK if I’d be upset, but I’d worry about it .
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Worried is probably the best way to put it.
I’d be thinking “Yay for now, but I can feel the bad news coming.”
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
I don't know how this organization can come back from this.
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DO NOT OVERPAY FOR BELTRE !!!
TRADE ELLSBURY THIS WINTER !!!
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It seems very embarrassing.
It also seems like teams might shy away from trading with the Red Sox, because it can blow up in their face.
We just let the perfect player for this team completely get away.
Wonder how this will play into Casey Kelly/Rizzo’s state of mind.
The certified ambassador of all things good and great, here at OTM.
DO NOT OVERPAY FOR BELTRE !!!
TRADE ELLSBURY THIS WINTER !!!
One of the many, proud OTM'ers that cannot stand Josh Beckett.
This hasn't blown up in the Padres' face.
It’s not like people didn’t know they were shopping him.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
They'd only shy away if a major extension was part of it and it had to be done quickly.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
2 of what?
AZ wanted like 3 mlb ready players, so possible deals were like Bard/Kalish/Doubront/maybe another prospect or two.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
my advice to theo:
theo, uconn do this.
er, i mean, you conn do…
er, you can do this
Go out and win the BEAST – er, i mean east, the beast of the east
anything can happen folks.
thats why alcohol was invented!!!
Buster Olney
Just reported that this is not dead yet. He says he believes the Sox can ‘bridge the gap’ in what they are willing to pay vs what Gonzo wants and that he still thinks Gonzo will be in a sox uni opening day.
imagine that
making a spectacle of the first sports new’s of december
what’s the media doing? trying to sell papers?
IMO
Iglesias and Ranaudo are the only untouchables in the farm system. Everybody else should be up for grabs if it means a big improvement to the team
Iglesias' offense is hugely suspect.
Sure, he might stop the door, but with how much value?
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He's 20 years old. He's got time to improve.
He’s light-hitting yes, but nowhere near black hole in the lineup, Kevin Cash bad.
I can’t see him improving to the point where I’d rather have him be the SS instead of Lowrie.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I really like Lowrie
I just don’t know if he can stay healthy enough to stay on the field for a whole season. Hasn’t done it yet
We hope.
He’s got time to improve, but discipline is always the hardest thing to develop.
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Has shown plenty of discipline in the past. Needs work against more advanced pitching.
That’s recognition, not discipline. Jose’s discipline critiques go back to Cuba.
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I agree.
He’s going to put up great numbers to begin next year in Portland and everyone is gonna get excited again.
He has excellent bat speed and a very sound line-drove, contact-conducive swing.
I could see many .750 OPS seasons in the Majors which would elevate him to an elite player given his defensive prowess.
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by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Is it dead?
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"This team loves to lose in the fourth quarter" - Phil Jackson
by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 3:36 PM EST via mobile reply actions
That sucks. Inexcusable.
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"This team loves to lose in the fourth quarter" - Phil Jackson
by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 3:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don’t give a crap if we don’t het him
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"This team loves to lose in the fourth quarter" - Phil Jackson
by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 3:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
nobody gets the Man City reference
i smiled though ;)
by German Red Sox Fan on Dec 5, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
jonmorosi
Source: Gonzalez “turned down a lot of money because he wanted more, and the window closed.” #RedSox #Padres
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Everything I've seen says deal is 100% off
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Team not committed to winning.
If I wasn’t hooked I’d be done with this team.
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by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 3:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The problem with this is not a refusal to give out big contracts
but their inconsistency. How can you give out huge deals to Lackey and Beckett with every available number screaming that they won’t be worth it in year 2, nonetheless year 5? Then turn around and balk at Gonzalez because 1 or 2 of the 6 years won’t be worth the contract?
What is the thinking? Since when are pitchers more reliable and more deserving of long contracts?
we get team friendly deals for Lester/Youk/Pedroia
and with that savings we tell Agonz “no”
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I will hate Theo if this falls through.
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by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 3:42 PM EST via mobile reply actions
more like John Henry I think
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Why are you even a fan of this team...
Go join the MFY.
We don’t need your negative b!tching.
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by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
Alright, sorry, but I don't understand why this guy skews everything in his posts and just complains when this organization has done overwhelmingly good things.
We have 2 rings in the last 6 years, win 95 games almost every season, yet this clown sees everything through a blackened lens.
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by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
I think we gotta cut people a break today.
Its tough not to be disgusted after most of us bragged to our friends/neighbors/family about how good A-Gon will look in Fenway, how great his hit patterns are for the Monster.
Agreed
He sounds like a Yankee fan. It is only about how the Red Sox “Look” not play
Superficial to say the least.
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by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
This is so far over your head it's painful
The team has to care about PR. They need to field a good team and not alienate the fans. I can understand the reasoning behind this, the EEI listening “superfans” are going to see us caring more about Liverpool.
It's not over yet.
We may retain Gonzalez and re-sign him later.
The deal may fall through and we’ll trade for him in July.
You’re (others, too) jumping the gun.
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by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Yes it is
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by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 4:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Fine.
You want to choose negativity, then be my guest.
Free will comes first. Always.
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by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
you'd hate him more if he made a financial error 3 times worst than
the lowell & julio combined mistake
as much as we all hate the lawyers and bean counters – you have to trust them sometime
Screw that. I want to win.
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by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 3:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
+1zillion
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prediction time for everyone here:
what does Crawford get from us and how many years
same for Beltre
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Why is it you assume Crawford
When everyone else assumes Werth?
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because all I hear is how the FO wants Crawford above all else.
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I believe they want one rhb and one lhb
plan A: gonzo/Werth
plan B: Crawford/Beltre
Same $$ in both scenarios
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doesn't that make sense to you Ben?
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I have got to believe the money in both plans is about even
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Probably not.
Gonzo/Werth is probably a few million more.
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well then that makes even more sense
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We're not getting Crawfish.
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by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
Calm the Frig Down
3rd place, never compete again. Incredible hyperbole getting thrown around here right now.
It would have been nice to get Gonzalez, but we aren’t dead in the water without him. It’s absolutely incredible how many people can’t understand why we wouldn’t sign him to a 7 or 8 year deal with his injury the way it is right now and then go and suggest we shouldn’t sign Beltre because he’ll be a disaster at the end of his 5 years. It is absolutely incredible how you can’t see the hypocrisy in what you’re saying.
It’s like y’all forgot Youkilis, Pedrioa, Cameron and Ellsbury were all coming back and we’re about to get a full year of Lowrie one way or another. This team was only a couple injuries away from winning the East last year.
I’ve said it and I will continue to say it, don’t be so damned surprised all the time, the Sox have always operated with a cut off point, they always have and that clearly hasn’t changed. It’s how we’ll manage to compete year in and year out instead of in three year bursts at a time. Nothing is a given in this sport, getting Gonzalez by no means guarantees a championship if three opposing pitchers get really hot at the same time in the playoffs.
We didn’t have Gonzalez four days ago and we won’t have him now, can’t get pissed off about something that hasn’t changed.
Call the frig down.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Swing and a miss on the message Sean.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I'm saying we were a third place team last year.
We have since lost Martinez, and will hopefully be losing Beltre. We are still a third place team.
Gained back
Ellsbury, Youk, and Pedroia and any other FA we sign
Ellsbury is nothing
Youk and Pedroia aren’t gained back. They were injured, which happens. We have done nothing to improve, other than launch a PR disaster.
The final tally says 3rd place team, are you truly delusional enough to believe that healthy that team finishes with quite a few more wins. If we were in the running, Theo would have improved the bullpen rather trade away RamRam and MDC, we would have been in it.
If you believe that we would have been 3rd place no matter what, enjoy your reality.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
You clearly don't like Youk and Pedrioa
If you think they only cost us 3 wins.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
You and Petey
were both on the way to 7 WAR seasons.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
And they got hurt
Like players get hurt, it happens. You can’t assume we’re a 97 win team if everyone plays 162. Every team has some injuries, and playoff teams make the playoffs.
We had season-ending injuries to our best players.
No team that has that happen wins.
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Exactly
If the Celts lost Rondo and Peirce, probably game over. If the Pats lost… well listen a Belichick coached team doesn’t apply unfortunately.
But the principal is the same, no team has a 6 WAR backup first baseman if the 6 WAR starting first baseman goes down just in case.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
So friggin' what?
They knew what they had to do to make the playoffs, and they made the playoffs. We had $100m more in a tougher division and failed.
Exactly
We were in a Tougher Division. Did you see what happened to the Twins in the playoffs? They were dismantled by the Yankees. They were a good team in a bad division, that’s all.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
But they made the playoffs with what they had
No excuses. Excuses are for groups that can’t get it done.
Sean, it's amazing how quickly you flip the switch between rational and mystical.
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You can't say
losing your best players won’t get you into the playoffs when the Twins lost 2 of their best players and made the playoffs.
They lost their best player and a closer.
We lost two of our best, likely a surprising amount of value from Lowrie, had to play Bill Hall in the outfield a disgusting amount of time, V-Mart and Tek both in the same month, etc.
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Pedroia. Youkilis. Cameron. Ellsbury.
Plus half seasons of Martinez, Varitek, plus a month of Buchholz. Plus Lowrie. Plus Scutaro playing the second half of the season with a torn rotator cuff. It adds up.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Cameron and Ellsbury don't count
Because they’re not any good.
We’re an old team that got hurt. We’re also a $173m team that can supposedly fix itself.
They're better than McDonalds and Hallway.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Ells is better than McDonalds
I hesitate to call him good.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Worth 7.1 WAR in 2009 combined.
But yeah, sure, no good.
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Which is proven to have next-to-no difference for hitter value.
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WAR, for the record, being league adjusted.
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Define mediocre hitter.
Cameron was a great hitter for CF.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
You don't say?
So, since Gonzo has one year on his contract already, an 8-year extension would make him…
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Are you willing to "eat" the down years at the end of the contract?
No complaints when their OPS drops from .950 to .850 or below?
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Oh God.
Nevermind.
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by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
And Martinez? And Lowrie? And Scutaro?
Did missing those guys contribute nothing to the problems of the team? Did Cash and Brown deliver any value while they were in Boston?
The differences add up, and you can’t ignore them by saying “they’re no good.” The question is, were they better than their replacements? And the answer for all of them is “Yes.” So you have to take that account.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Ridiculous.
ONE THOUSAND PLAYER GAMES LOST TO INJURY.
The Sox lost more than six full years to injury this year. Is any team built deep enough to withstand that without consequences? NO.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
This clown is the biggest p!nkhat.
You should start posting on soxprospects.com.
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by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
for once I'm not the bad guy here
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Sorry Ben.
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by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
I might have to ban you frederick0220
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Where are Pesky and Palmer when we need em
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Can Darnell McDonald play 1B?
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so now we will give 7 to Crawford
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if theo goes who is available for gm? Bring back Kennedy or someone on tv?
You've seen me on your tv
I'll do it
But I’d need a decent staff around me to help with the draft.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
Bring back Duquette
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Is Beltre really the deal we're looking at here?
Because we pretty much end up signing him through the age we would have had Gonzo. Seems a little hypocritical.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
The difference being the Market
At 3B there is Beltre and that is it.
There is Pujols, Fielder, and AGon all looking for a big market team to pay them but there aren’t that many teams with that kind of money to spend.
Therefore you are going to have to overpay for Beltre
this is the day from hell
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APOCALYPSE
AHHHH
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
seems close
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we're either going to
overpay for gonzalez, or overpay for beltre. Just overpay for for gonzo.
Sorry guys no Gonzo for you
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somewhere Tex is in bed with peanut butter laughing
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Somewhere Tex is in bed with A-Rod lauhing.
Fixed it for you.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Dec 5, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
So when I go to Fenway and they want 12 for a beer
and I say how bout 7, does that mean they will take it?
Clearly this is how the Sox conduct business.
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Why not
try and sign Beltre and Werth and then next year when Ortiz and Drew are off the books we can sign AGon or another great 1B for the same price he is asking for now we just won’t have to give up 3 top prospects for him.
This isn’t the end of the world people.
Yeah, but other teams might want Gonzalez.
The Yankees might not be in it, but he still could get his Tex money.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
If the Yanks are not in it
No one gets Tex money except Pujols for obvious reasons. Pujols sets the bar next year not Tex.
It comes down to belief in the Market next year
I think there are the Mets and Red Sox who need 1B.
There is Prince and AGon. Both aren’t going to get huge deals and the other is going to drag down the price of the other.
If you believe there are more teams in on them then this drives the price up.
You do make good points,
but I don’t think Gonzo has much to lose here. He could go into FA and try to get Tex money,and if he doesn’t, then hes not going to get any less from any other team than he would have gotten from the sox. His only problems would be pissing off Boston (Boston would replace him somehow) or his shoulder inhibits his production so much that he loses a ton of money.
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They're going to get huge deals
Near Tex money either way. It won’t come down a whole lot just because two money teams have interest and there are two good players.
They’re going to get paid like superstars because they are superstars.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
If we can't afford him with no competition
Why should we be able to afford him with competition? And signing Beltre is suicide.
False competition and Suicide?
How is Beltre suicide? He is a gg 3B who’s traits tend to age well. He obviously likes Fenway park and will have protection in the lineup.
AGon won’t get Tex Money unless the Mets pay that because they are one of the few teams besides us who has the money to sign him. Why would the Mets sign him for Tex money when they can get Prince for cheaper? They would only be bidding against themselves.
Since 2002
Beltre has been worth on average $16.4M per year according to WAR.
Its not done yet....
the sox are probably going to realize they’ll have to pay too much for somebody else whos not as good if they dont make this work somehow.
This guy is waiving off AGonz plane from the airport
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This is embarrassing.
I am so pissed.
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by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 3:59 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Wow, you people really feel embarrassed
because they couldn’t agree on an 8 year monster contract in like less than 24 hours? I’m not happy about this, but it’s not like it’s an easy thing to do. Should they just give in to whatever Gonzalez wants? Theo should have know what he was getting into, though, but still.
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Yes they should have.
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by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 4:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Maybe
But like I’ve said a billion times this offseason, don’t be surprised when Theo sets limits. They’ve been doing it for years, it’s the way we do business and despite that, since Theo has taken over, we’ve been a very successful team. There are cut off points in our negotiations with players, plain and simple.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Why?
Four days ago, Adrian Gonzalez was not a member of the Boston Red Sox. Today, Adrian Gonzalez is not a member of the Boston Red Sox. Absolutely nothing that matters has changed.
Relax. Most offseason plans never included Adrian, it’s been more about the other Adrian and Crawford/Werth than anything, that’s what it’s been about for TWO MONTHS. These last 48 hours changed nothing.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Yes, it does
Among normal fans, it is a gigantic black eye. It’s seen as us not being able to get anything accomplished, 5 days before tickets go on sale. It also keeps up the Liverpool meme.
People on here are acting like little kids that
were shown the piece of candy and are now crying when they didn’t get it.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
PRECISELY!
Can’t worry about crap that wasn’t yours, or was almost yours. Go back to the plan we had been working on before.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Why are you getting pisssed over the Sox' PR policy?
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because the fans won't go and they'll have less money to spend
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
I don't debate that,
but if these limits and guidlines the FO has keeps the team winning, the fans won’t be pissed anymore.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
If the fans are as chemically imbalanced
As just about every single post in this topic suggests they are.
They’ll be right back in the stands 5 wins into the season.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Except that's only true if the season started today.
So again, he’s just worried about this however-long PR valley that means nothing unless it continues into April.
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I contend that PR has nothing to do with on the field product, so I’m not going to worry about it.
Seattle had all the PR in the world going for them going into last season, how did that work out for them?
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Even without the extension
Its a fair deal. Gonzalez’ surplus value is around $28 million, and the three players the Sox would have sent over in the deal would have been worth around $31 million. Thats a fair premium to pay for a talent like Gonzalez.
except Gonzalez would be around for only one year, while those others would be multiple
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except
in baseball those guys could end up easily being worth next to nothing.
but is it worth it for only one year of one good player?
Possibly. There are always trade-offs.
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Except if one pans out
the prospects value will be worth more then one year of AGon
If we're doing direct comparisons of likely surplus value, then there's no such thing as a "fair premium"
It’s all just “winning and losing” the deal.
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I can see the headlines now:
“SKY IS FALLING
10 Dead in Boston as town riots over a sport."
Ridiculous.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
if this guy is at 1B next year, I quit
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DO NOT OVERPAY FOR BELTRE !!!
TRADE ELLSBURY THIS WINTER !!!
One of the many, proud OTM'ers that cannot stand Josh Beckett.
The main question is
Why was the negotiating window so short? If teams are supposed to have 72 hours to negotiate these kinds of deals, why did it seem like the Sox were only given 36?
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Who the hell knows
I’ve read things that said they maybe could get it extended all the way to 72 hours, but they would have to ask MLB again, and Gonzalez is leaving at 4:30. So maybe they’ll revisit this trade in a few days, despite what SD says because I gotta believe they want this done. This was obviously the best value because they wouldn’t have done it otherwise.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Here is the TRUTH of the matter
The certified ambassador of all things good and great, here at OTM.
DO NOT OVERPAY FOR BELTRE !!!
TRADE ELLSBURY THIS WINTER !!!
One of the many, proud OTM'ers that cannot stand Josh Beckett.
So, uh.
Pujols next year?
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
It was mostly for Luls.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
You and I both.
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"This team loves to lose in the fourth quarter" - Phil Jackson
by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 4:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I need waffles
…since we’re making ridiculous statements.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
No, OTM is now calling for John Henry to sell this team
this is our official stance.
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
No, OTM has turned into Boston.com 2.0
making ridiculous statements on something that we don’t even know the full story of.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
i'm the ambassador here, and declare we are asking Henry to sell
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
Are you though?
I used to know because it was in your tagline. Now i"m not sure sure any more.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Yeah, this is becoming painful to look at.
People fretting over something entirely out of their control.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
My apologies.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I'm making waffles
If you want to make the trip out to Macomb
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
The hysterical reactions are hilarious
Length of contract, as opposed to salary, is almost certainly the sticking point in the talks. If the trade ends up dead, it will be a baseball value decision and certainly not an “OMG we must save $$ for soccer team!! Hope Shaughnessy doesn’t bravely expose our plot in Globe lolz!” scenario.
I also would like to take a shot at the “HENRY IS CHEEAAAP” crowd. This team has a $170 million payroll, enough said. Perhaps you would like richer owners such as Carl Pohlad who funnel their billions into their baseball team…oh wait.
My opinion is Epstein will not budge on refusing the 8 guaranteed years and rightly so. To defend that prospective length with any kind of “PAY HIM THEO” means you are fine with paying Gonzalez $20-23M yearly in his age 36 and 37 seasons to, in all logical likelihood, serve as a ~.850-875 OPS, aging, fading against LHP DH. And that is the BEST case scenario for how he ages. Does such a player sound familiar? It should because we have one right now. Would you like to be committed to said player for said 20-23M a year for two more years? Think that might prevent the team from making future acquisitions that would put it over the top?
It is in both Boston’s and Gonzalez’s interest that the trade is completed so I am leaning towards a compromise outcome. Remember the vitriol and hysterics over the Yankees and Jeter’s contract with every New York newspaper stoking the fire with pictures of Jeter in other uniforms, etc…then what happened? Out of nowhere in a 24-hour span the entire saga neatly resolved itself and the story sagged like a popped balloon. If the trade dies for good, oh well. Shit happens. You can console yourself with dreams of an alternate universe where a superior GM such as Omar Minaya runs the Red Sox and happily gave Gonzalez 10 years and 230 million.
Do you want to win?
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"This team loves to lose in the fourth quarter" - Phil Jackson
by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 4:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
No, I am a Yankee fan Communist America-hating socialist
Marxist Muslim Hitlerite Antichrist atheist who wants the Red Sox to finish 5th every year.
Have we not been winning?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I want to win every year.
But I also don’t want to be hamstrung with contracts that help to win now, but hurt the odds of winning later.
An 8-year deal for Gonzalez is a big gamble. I’d much rather a six-year deal with multiple team and player options that are reasonable for both sides, than 8 guaranteed years at 20-23MM/year.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Everyone seemed good with it yesterday.
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"This team loves to lose in the fourth quarter" - Phil Jackson
by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 4:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
And two days ago
No one cared.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I was never good with an 8 year deal (if that's what you're saying)
It worried me then and it worries me now.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Who was saying an 8-year deal was good?
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
I think the money and years were short
fooled me with Tex, but fool me once shame on you, fool me twice you know the rest.
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
Oh please.
Teixeira was using the Sox to inflate his deal with the Yankees.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
so the story goes !! now I'm not so sure!
seeing how these guys operate.
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
Did you notice how the Yankees swept in at the end?
And besides, look at how the Teixeira deal is working out for them. He’s turned into a pumpkin on the road already.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
We'll see how the Tex contract ends up. He still has a lot left on it.
Maybe these limits will work out in the end. It’s too early to tell.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Do you know how much the Sox offered? How much Gonzalez demanded?
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the problem is
the outcome if this dealing through results in the sox paying too much for players that are older and have less talent.
If they get them for fewer years
It’s a wash.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
well if its a wash
then id just assume take the mvp quality player.
What I meant was
That you get them for fewer years, so less risk of washing out. An 8-year deal for a slugger starting at 30? Potentially risky.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
At their respective prices, yes.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
4 for Beltre and 5 for Crawford? Probably.
It’ll cost ‘em about 10 million more to get both of them, they’ll stay away from most of the higher years, and they’ll give up no prospects in the process.
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8 years is ridiculous I don't care what anyone says
just flat out piggish of Gonzalez.
I don’t even want him anymore.
It's the nature of the game.
Contract are guaranteed. It’s his right to ask for as long as a contract as he can get. It’s also the Sox’s right to refuse to give him a longer deal than they think appropriate.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
This was something that Ben had alluded to A LONG time ago
Gonzalez has absolutely no reason to hammer out an extension in a world with no competition.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Sure he does
Shoulder, injury, down year, etc.
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He should have said
No incentive to hammer out an extension if he thinks he can make more money as a FA.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Are you backing down from that claim?
I swear I remember you arguing a Gonzalez deal was unlikely because he wouldn’t have the incentive to sign now when he could just become a free agent. And that wasn’t too long ago. Don’t make me think my mind is going here. You argued that right?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Not sure I did at that.
I argued recently that Gonzalez would have no incentive to sign after the season started. He did right now though.
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My bad
Apologies for putting words in your mouth, must have misread it.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
this stinks
but look at the bright side, such as it is.
There’s still a chance something happens. There’s still a chance the Sox and Gonzalez can reach an agreement. And if so, we get to keep Kelly, keep Rizzo, and continue to build the farm system for use in another trade. It’s not the end of the world people.
I would like to know what Gonzalez’s contract demands were, though. He shouldn’t be expecting Tex years considering he’s older and just had surgery, so I’m curious as to where the impasse is.
He had no incentive to sign with us.
He could ask whatever he wanted because he’s likely to get it next year when multiple teams are falling all over themselves for him, instead of being forced to negotiate a deal with us.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
But the market is going to be slimmer pickings.
Because other teams will sign 1B’s this year, leaving fewer offerings.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Yeah
But how many of this year’s free agents are A)Better than Gonzalez/Pujols/Fielder (or even close to their level) and B)going to sign long term deals that would preclude these teams from making a run next year? Berkman, Lee, Konerko, Pena, they are all set to sign 1-2 year deals.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
no, i realize this
i just want to know what exactly held up the deal. was it ridiculous demands, or an issue of years, or our wanting to insert an insurance clause in there. we may never know the full details, but i think before we start crucifying the FO we need to know why things happened the way they are.
+1
We have no idea what the story was with offers and demands, and everybody here is saying we should give him whatever he wants. How does everybody feel about Arod’s contract?
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
ARod contract sucks now
But It was well worth it when he was on pace to break the all-time HR.
Fact is you are going to have to give super star years at the end of these deals where they aren’t worth the money. It happens with every super star now. The fact that people are still shocked by this is amazing. Happened with us and Manny. Happened to us with Ortiz.
Now we are just to cheap to accept this. All Henry’s money has got to go to the soccer team he acquired.
A-Rod will be paid $20MM in 2017 when he is 42 years old. He’s my favorite player and I’m glad we kept him, but that contract was never good by any stretch of the imagination.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
Especially since the Yankees were just outbidding them.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Yes. It’s not like they had to give him $275MM or he’d go somewhere else. No team was going to going to offer A-Rod better than 8/200, and we still signed him for 10/275 + incentives.
There’s no way the A-Rod contract can ever be spinned as being a good long term move in 2007, 2010, or whenever.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
But hey, you did manage to interrupt the World Series clinching game with Yankees news.
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Now when I said A-Rod was my favorite player, I should probably point out that “class” and “tact” are not criteria for that distinction. That was a fully lame move.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
A-Rod's Pleasure Palace
is a room full of full-length mirrors, so that’s understandable.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
What I'm saying is a Gonzo 8 year deal might be an Arod deal.
Maybe he’ll only be good for 4-5 years. That’s the risk with the long deals. I’m not saying we shouldn’t take risk, nor am I specifically directing this at you, but we shouldn’t just give Gonzo whatever he wants just because can.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
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"This team loves to lose in the fourth quarter" - Phil Jackson
by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 4:32 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Over/Under .650 OPS?
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
Werth to dc
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"This team loves to lose in the fourth quarter" - Phil Jackson
by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 4:36 PM EST via mobile reply actions
to the Natinals (misspelled on purpose to make fun of the jersey misspelling)
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Huh?
Source or speculation?
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Wow
Washington is coming along, getting Dunn, now Werth, making a strong play for Teixiera.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Oh God, if Werth signs with DC,
then Henry should hide in a bunker in England, and Theo should hire body guards.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
If werth signs with dc and we lose gonzo
WTF happens then?
Beltre and Crawford seem much more likely.
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NOOOOOOOOOOO
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
but u are right
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
Beltre Crawford
That was easy enough.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
They'll overpay for Gonzalez/Werth
There is no winning.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
And would cost significantly more
The price/risk ratio is about the same for either set of deals.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
the very very big difference is
gonzalez is younger, and an mvp quality player.
Werth to the nationals
wow, looks like 2011 is bridge year part 2
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
Weren’t you saying it was Gonzalez/Werth or Beltre/Crawford? Seems right in line.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Depends on Beltre's offense and where Crawford plays.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Not if Beltre keeps turning away suitors like Oakland.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
Werth is gone. Dunn is gone. Gonzo is gone (????)
Down to just crawford and/or beltre?
Sounds like bad heresay, but screw it:
@pjmclaugh: friend (limo driver in Boston) is driving Gonzo & Pads execs . He said Sox, Pads are negotiating at hotel. #RedSox
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maybe he decided to ax the plane flight
to stay and negotiate. It’s not like anybody can really know where he is unless they’re stalking him or something.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Who was the guy that told you all we did not want Werth at all?
The FO wants Crawford no matter how many LH’s are in the lineup because he’s another one of Theo’s obsessions.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
OH SHIT
Heyman says Werth signed a 7 year deal. HA HA AH HA, Rizzo is mentally impared!
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Werth gets 7 year deal from Nats
XFD way to go Washington. Enjoy that.
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Every year I think there's no way Boras is actually gonna get the BS he spews.
And then BAM!
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I'm fairly certain Rizzo and Boras are lovers.
First Ivan, now this?
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
You gotta be kidding me
Boras probably collapsed into giggles the instant Rizzo hung up the phone if true.
7 years????
looks like the Nats are trying to steal a page from the MFYs playbook
XD is a "cracking up" emoticon.
F as in MFY
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
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Oy. You can modify emoticons now?
That’s worse than “lulz.”
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
I saw Greg Bedard use "LOL" earlier today, so I felt daring.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
USG
I contend
We do not get Crawford now no matter what. Someone will give him the years he wants and he’s going to be more adamant about it now that Werth got 7.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Those stupid GMs! They're fucking up the Market
If someone was to blame the failure of the Sox-Gonz deal, it should Ruben Amaro who gave Howard that contract!
Twitter | "Almost every organization has a guy like Papelbon or Lester" - Dave Cameron 12/29/2005
@#$!
This is exactly what I was afraid of.
by Christopher B on Dec 5, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
Still want to give Gonzalez an 8-year deal?
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
yes actually
I’d give 7, with vesting for 8 to Gonzo
and 7 to Crafword
both young enough
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
Werth and Gonzo will be at the same age at the end of their respective deals.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
LOL
2017 Season: 24 year old Bryce Harper batting right in front of 39 year old Werth. What a lineup idea
I'm thinking this deal might just replace the Zito deal
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Here's the crawford negotiations
agent: my client is younger than Werth so he should get 9 years
sox: Rizzo is a dumbass and nobody will give your client 9 years. You can even go ask. Here’s 7
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
No, Alderman or somebody else is the GM, and their not that stupid.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Oh yeah, true
Forgot they booted Minaya. Well, there’s always Sabean (and this is speaking as someone whose NL team is the Giants).
This.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
Crawford is still in play
but his price is going to be Tex like
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
Exactly, should have topped it with 8yr/130M
FIRE THEO
LIVERPOOL
9/11 TRUTH
Agonz update?
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"This team loves to lose in the fourth quarter" - Phil Jackson
by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 4:54 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Nothing right now.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Nobody knows what is going on.
All we know is there is no deal right now. Adrian may be on a plane right now, and he might not be. The trade/extension could be revisited tomorrow at the meetings.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Nothing new
Besides a limo driver in Boston tweeting that he took Gonzo and some Padres executives to a hotel rather than the airport for further negotiations. That that for what it’s worth.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I actually think they might go somewhere between 5/70-5/90
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
Beltre has lost leverage
The A’s have tried twice to sign him to a good deal and he’s rebuked them twice waiting for us. Competition is down.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Scott Boras
Will need to change his pants first from the deal he just signed for Werth.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
3 of those 8.
But are we really measuring ourself against the new Zito/Howard of the world?
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
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What are our other options?
We’re the 2nd richest team in the sport, and we choose to sign Lackey for a 4.5 ERA at 15m instead of a player who will rake for 20-25m. Other teams want the best players, and we don’t. We overspend for crap.
yeah, but we didn't give either of them that because both are too much.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
So what we'll do is give $15m a year
to a player who is nothing compared to Gonzalez. Just like we did with Lackey.
If we give this money to Lee I’m going to scream. If we give money to Beltre we’re screwed. If we don’t give it to anyone, the Liverpool shouters are right.
Yeah, I want them to be consistent with their spending,
and they pretty much have been. However, a Lackey contract is probably worse than Gonzalez for 8.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
but we didn't give Werth the 7 years.
It’s not like we signed him instead of Gonzo.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Oh.My.God!
Twitter | "Almost every organization has a guy like Papelbon or Lester" - Dave Cameron 12/29/2005
betting begins now
for time when rumors start that yankees talk to SD about trades.
Why
Find me the place that Gonzalez would play on the Yankees roster. You have 5 minutes. Go.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
catcher
hey “theyr the yankees” they can move a-rod to 3rd base, they can do whatever they want.
Wrong.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Use the < code > for that.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Yeah we miss it sometimes spinz
Some people are completely serious when they say the Yanks could try Gonzo at catcher. People are delusional and paranoid about them
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
By the way, does my tinfoil hat make me look fat?
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Jeter, Posada, A Rod, Texiera.
Take your pick of future Yankee designated hitters.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Jeter was the worst SS in history for the first 9 years
He’s at SS until he literally can’t stand. Posada can be pushed behind the plate, because why the hell not, they’re the yankees. Slappy is their 3b for a while.
Posada will be a primary DH in 2011, with Montero (as of now) moving behind the plate. A-Rod and Jeter will both need half days off fairly often. It’s premature to put Tex in that category, however.
If Montero can’t stick behind the plate (as of right now, we really don’t have a choice but to just leave him at C) we’re going to have a big bottleneck at DH. There’s really no room on the roster to commit superstar money to another corner infield/DH type of player.
I’ll be very surprised if the Yankees are ever considered real players if Gonzo hits FA. They might show some token interest to make the headline of “the Yankees are involved” and drive the price up, but he really isn’t a fit.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
I’m thinking down the road for Tex, about the same time Gonzo would be more DH than 1B as well. But yeah, about my thinking exactly regarding the Yankees and Gonzalez.
With Montero, what’s it looking like for him? Will he stick at catcher or does he have DH written all over him like I’ve heard? And if he is a DH long term, is it likely he’ll be moved considering the “bottleneck” you’ve mentioned?
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
If he’s not traded this offseason in a Zack Greinke type acquisition (which I would hate), he’ll be the starting catcher in 2011. The reports about his defense have gotten better and better, and it seems that he’s been working his butt off at improving.
His main flaw is that he’s so big. He has a very strong arm, but has trouble with the “agility” aspects of defensive catching (blocking balls, quick release on throws). I think that while he’s sitll young and doesn’t have the wear and tear of years of catching on his back and knees he can play some passable defense.
I don’t think he’ll spend his whole career as a catcher, I think he’ll eventually need to transition to 1B/DH, but I would expect him to be a passable catcher in 2011. The other available catching talent is so thin and crappy that we’re essentially left with no choice. I want nothing to do with Francisco Cervelli being in the lineup every day.
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
Maybe the Sox brass took Gonzo down to Orlando
They’re gonna take him to Disneyland and try and work out the extension in between Pirates of the Caribbean and Space Mountain
Carl Crawford is going to get Tex kinda $$$
can’t believe it
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
If the A's couldn't get him
Could the O’s?
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
if we want give away 3 MLB players
+ maybe some prospects, then yes
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
After the Teixeira deal, Epstein was commented as saying he hated the FA market
And wanted to avoid it whenever possible.
Now we understand why: owners are losing their minds throughout the league, giving ridiculous contracts to people who have no business getting them.
Until there’s a salary cap in place in baseball, this is only going to get worse.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
NFL hasn't lost business.
Although it might next year.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
The Miami Heat and Boston Celtics beg to differ. As well as Hockey, lots of big trades in hockey yearly.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I one thing about hockey: competitiveness
If a team half asses it in the playoffs, they’ll just lose. If the Lakers half ass it, they can still win the first two rounds.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
With the exception of good World Series matchups, ratings are steadily declining for MLB
NBA ratings are increasing
Two words: Full contact.
Let the second baseman tackle people trying to steal. Ratings will soar!
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
The NBA sucks.
It’s all about tanking. Teams can’t really get better, they just trade away all their players and hope for a FA or just lose and hope for a high pick. Elite teams can just rip off the other teams like the Gasol trade. MLB prospects are better than NBA prospects in terms of value to the team. There really is no parity in the NBA, it’s all about 4-5 teams that actually have a chance every year. Who would have though San Fan could have won the world series?
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Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Right, except nobody watched that world series
It’s possible to build up an NBA team without big FAs. Look at OKC. And the only reason the Pau Gasol trade happened is because the Memphis GM is a total idiot
My thing is that there are too many salary dumps.
Some team pretty much just gets a player for free every year because the team needs to hope to sign a star player. OKC has built very well through the draft, but they had to be really bad 1st to get Durant, so it’s back to clearing space every once in a while for an LBJ or trying to suck for a high pick.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
well look at it this way
if there was a salary cap this trade never happens to begin with.
But that's fine.
It forces teams to focus more on internal development, and to prioritize their needs. I’m fine with that, because it applies to everybody.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Would you mind holding this flaming bag of poo
while I club you over the head with this croquet mallet?
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
Olney talks about the deal still possibly getting done.
http://espn.go.com/boston/video/clip?id=5888029&categoryid=2521705
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Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Wouldn't it be funny?
If Epstein emerged from the hotel to a throng of reporters and had the following exchange:
Reporters: Theo! Did a deal get done?!?!? Everyone is holding their breath!!
Theo (calmly): Well yeah. Why, were people worried?
(enters limo)
(drives off)
I'd like to hand him a printout of this webpage.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
sandy...rein it in a little...
pull it back a bit…breathe, my friend, breathe…we don’t know what’s going on.
I can't help it
this team has so much $ and they operate like the Tigers.
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
but they don't operate like the Mets, which is most important.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Exhibit A: Just about every big deal in the last five years.
Santana and Bay being the worst offenders.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
yes
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
Hopefully they are doing negotiations in a sound proof isolation chamber
where they cant receive word about werths contract.
Theo's Blackberry vibrates
(sees text on Werth contract, mouths “WHAT-THE-FUCK”)
Gonzalez’s agent: Something wrong?
Theo: Uhhhh…yes! We just invaded Iran, I’m sorry but it seems like the dollar is going down the drain? 6/100?
Agent: Good God! You’ve got it!
Well, IDK if he knows they actually offered that,
or if he just assumes that’s ABOUT what they offered.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
oh god
that is low, why would they even try to make this trade if they thought they could sign him that low.
they wanted a Tex deal, which is what he deserves if Tex got it
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
yeah
what i want to know is: why didnt the sox realize this would require a tex-like contract, and still try to make the trade and throw peanuts at him of 120.
That's my point,
the trade was mostly pointless. At least they tried.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
I think the PR thing is overrated
Seattle had all the good PR in the world last year and ended up with nothing.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
werth
is gone as well to the nat’s ?
by RED SOX are #1 in my heart on Dec 5, 2010 5:22 PM EST reply actions
$126 million
The exact contract Barry Zito got 4 years ago and Vernon Wells got.
Awful. Ruined the FA market.
7 year deal. Crazy.
Owners are losing their minds left and right.
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
John Henry
should be on that show Pawn Stars the way he negotiates, treating players like desperate crack heads.
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
Werth contract does nothing but lower the possibilities of seeing Gonzalez in a Sox uni
No way Gonzalez is worth less than 8/200 on this market.
That is true.
Not worth that money.
Maybe that makes the deal more likely. Becuase if the Sox sit back and don’t get Werth, Crawford or Gonzalez and just get Beltre back while losing V-Mart…..well goodbye sellout streak. In that case the Sox know something needed to be done.
Ace Tickets AKA The Boston Red Sox
will make sure the sell out streak never ends.
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
if crawford wants that he'l get it somewhere.
see: werth.
More years and more dollars per year?
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
well the cowboy's are up by 10 at the half
sorry pesky …………..well no i am not
by RED SOX are #1 in my heart on Dec 5, 2010 5:26 PM EST reply actions
Everyone needs to step back from the ledge..
I find it hard to believe that Theo would be in negotiations with SD since Thursday and make this trade without being confident in extension talks.
Just be happy your not a Nationals fan right now.
pa take a deep breath and have faith in theo
by RED SOX are #1 in my heart on Dec 5, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
will getting your b/p ready to blow a main fix this ?
lets wait and see what come’s of this
by RED SOX are #1 in my heart on Dec 5, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
Hard to have faith in Theo right now.
But I am certainly ecstatic that we aren’t the ones that gave Werth that deal. And I was a huge Werth fan.
That was my initial feeling
But in the worst case scenario we go back to Beltre to negotiate, who just lost a ton of leverage when Beane pulled his offer.
The lack of an announcement from the FO isn’t necessarily a bad thing. I’m sure they had knowledge that Washington would overpay for Werth – theres no reason they don’t offer the same package and go to work on an extension at the Winter Meetings.
We might as well just give Gonzo his 8/180
because nobody is going to be worth it in the future, but we will still need some FAs here and there.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
maybe a little,
but if we called him and gave him 8/180, I think he’d accept it.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Hard to be competitive with your offers when teams like the Nats are giving $18MM a year for 7 years to guys like Werth.
Market just became ridiculous.
And I’m one of the guys who has been bitching about Henry today.
I still believe the market is set by the GMs involved with the particular player.
Crawford could ask for 10 years and if nobody gives him that, then he doesn’t get it.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Yeah just like last year with Lackey...
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
the question then must be, arent all the Sox FO in Orlando
cause that comment means nothing if thats the case.
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
So its back on?
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by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 5:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
its all been speculation
simply because the “deadline” passed. theres never been any remotely official word.
The deadline is past, so the extension is technically off.
However, the sox could still accept the trade, but have made no indication if they want it or if it’s off. They could be talking right now, but nobody knows what’s happening.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Now you are just bitching for the sake of bitching
I don’t give a **** if we had god as our owner with unlimited money. Doesn’t mean we should go out and give Jayson Werth that kind of combination of money and years.
We are talking about a guy who has never had over 100 RBIs and has had over 30 HRs once. And he plays is a friggin closet of a stadium.
I'm not endorsing Werth
I’m saying the OF is a major problem as currently stands.
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
And?
The only two upgrades are going to get $18MM+ a year. Neither of them are worth that much.
You don’t just give out money for the sake of giving out money. There are other ways to fix the OF problems.
He and Sean are going to bitch no matter what.
Even if we win 100 games they’ll complain about the taste of the Fenway Franks or some sh!t.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
If Kalish plays like Bill James prediction and if Drew rebounds, they won’t be bad at all.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Unfortunately, the Bill James projections are often a good deal off.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
I still say...
Save the money and play Kalish in LF and Lowrie at 3B
Now you're just trolling out of spite
Guarantee most other MLB fans would kill to have the ownership, financial resources, and front office of this team.
Most of what I post is tongue in cheak FYI...
everyone here knows that
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
This.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
As a Brewers fan
allow me to concur. I wish my team were so good I could be upset about not getting Adrian Gonzalez; as it is I’m just hoping we get something more than compensation picks for Prince…and even then, I’d maybe be okay with picks if we traded someone else for pitching. Seriously.
I had a link here to my blog, but it's now defunct and I guess I've lost the URL. Currently taking suggestions for a new signature.
Save for what exactly?
Next years FA class is underwhelming at best, unless your looking to sign Prince.
What's the record for most comments on a single OTM thread in a 4 hour period?
We might be getting close
jesus i just came back
Werth: 7 years 126M WTF????
now i’m pissed that Werth is gone but that contract is completly and utterly insane
by German Red Sox Fan on Dec 5, 2010 5:42 PM EST reply actions
Werth is a National.
Now what Boston fans? Not like ignorant, but now what do you all do?
"Individual players don't win championships, teams do."
Resign Lugo
Trade to STL for Pujols straight up
Exactly
Then trade Papelbon, Drew, Scutaro for Felix Hernandez.
Then sell Liverpool and use $ to build Delorean, go back 1 week and sign Rivera.
WS Championship 2011
Epic Brofist!
Gonzo
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"This team loves to lose in the fourth quarter" - Phil Jackson
by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 5, 2010 5:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
What now?
We all wipe the sweat off our brow and jump for joy that we didn’t get stuck giving him that kind of deal.
Brutal. No wonder why they suck even though they only pick at the top of the draft.
Olney:
The Werth contract has had an impact of an 8.0 earthquake. Rival gms, execs are going nuts about the terms.
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
Olney continued:
Last contract that generated this kind of vitriol was Kevin brown deal
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
Teams that could be on gonzo next winter: dodgers, angels, rangers, braves, orioles, mats, cubs, etc
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
Teams that could be on gonzo next winter: dodgers, angels, rangers, braves, orioles, mats, cubs, etc
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
bc Jason Werth is SO OVERRATED
I actually think the Red Sox beat one by not signing Werth. I only like him bc he as a righty.
Jayson Werth is good, and would have been good for the team.
But not at that price.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
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Cubs would be desperate enough to give Gonzo whatever he wants
We need to take care of business now
I think that's what just happened to the Nationals:
Rizzo: Honestly, Scott, I don’t see us going over 5 years and $ 85 million. All due respect to Jayson, that’s what he’s worth.
Boras: I appreciate your position, but I’ve taken your children hostage and they’ll be killed unless you accede to our demands.
Rizzo: Nice try, Scott, but I sacrificed both my children in a pact with dark and unnameable forces in exchange for a promise that Strausburg makes a complete recovery from Tommy John surgery.
Boras: Curse you, Rizzo! I … * Blackberry vibrates * Excuse me for a moment, that’s Satan’s private line…
(reads, grinning)
Boras: Apparently, the Red Sox negotiations with Adrian Gonzalez have collapsed…
Rizzo: Seven years, $ 126 Million!!! Please, I beg you…
Boras: Only, If I get to punch you in the nuts repeatedly.
Rizzo: Now?
Boras: Over the course of the seven year deal.
Rizzo: Agreed.
Boras: Well, then, let’s get started…
The moral of the story? Acting out of desperation gets you punched in the nuts repeatedly.
Wait 'til next/this year?
"Laser show. So relax."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 5, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
You, my friend have just won the Internet today!
Rec’d
Twitter | "Almost every organization has a guy like Papelbon or Lester" - Dave Cameron 12/29/2005
Nah.
I’ve been grumpy and sniping for three days – I needed to get back to even.
Wait 'til next/this year?
"Laser show. So relax."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 5, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
It's okay.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
He wouldn't hit enough at 1B or DH.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
Absolutely not.
That contract is right up there with Werth’s.
4th largest deal ever in the MLB by a catcher. Deal is even worse if he is the DH like the Tigers say he is going to be.
I think people are going a little crazy
1) Why would you want Theo to give A-Gon anything he wants when we just have to wait 1 year and then the Sox can play Fielder, A-Gon and Pujols off each other and get the best deal or just effing sign Pujols for ridiculous money?
2) I am one of the most ardent proponents of trading for A-Gon, but if Theo thinks this deal is crazy, I trust him. Its not a good deal.
3) A-Gon is the villain here, he just screwed his beloved “Padres” and still has to come to the Red Sox in 2011 to get the deal he wants. There are no big market teams with money to spend for 1B outside of the Red Sox.
I am really not to worried about this.
Werth is another problem. This screws the Angels more than the Red Sox.
I agree with 1 and 2, but I'm not sure AGon is really the villain.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
Why?
He didn’t request a trade (at least not that we know of).
He has every right to demand more money than what the Sox are willing to offer.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
thats really not what happened, according to the reports
The “Trade” was done, then A-Gon’s agent figured out this was his one window to get huge money without competing with Pujols and Fielder and Beltre. So he went for it and lost, killing the trade and possibly leaving the Padres with just 2 draft picks v. #10 prospect in baseball.
Dude, he'll get traded in July then.
Gonzalez is entitled to demand what he wants contract-wise.
He didn’t do anything wrong to SD.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
and SD
will get pennies on the dollar v. #10 prospect in baseball and a #2 or #1 in their young rotation.
A-Gon may have no loyalties to SD when you look at his future contract, but by not signing he is screwing the Padres out of the best possible return on the trade and if they dont trade him, well…they get 2 draft picks killing their trade window.
but bro ike davis is liek the future.
JK!
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
Ok I'm out
Pointless continuing to net-brawl over minutiae when nobody knows the facts of what’s going on. Get up 12 hours from now for work and spend 30 seconds checking Twitter updates on the net and you will know what went down.
Enjoy the rest of your Sunday yall.
You too.
We don’t know enough about what’s going on to b!tch and complain.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
Gordon Edes GordonEdes
I have every reason to believe Sox still talking with Gonzalez
Oi
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Deals like this are never dead. Gonzo’s agents know this is his one chance, but there’s not much leverage here. It seems clear few if any other teams have the pieces to trade for Gonzalez, and even fewer if any can afford to give him a bigger offer than the Sox. Even if he were to stay in San Diego until next fall, who would offer more? The Orioles? The Cubs or Rangers maybe, depending on how they deal with 1b this year?
Gonzalez will be on the Sox come this spring, with a deal we can all live with. I still predict 6 plus an option or 2. The idiotic Werth deal doesn’t help, that’s for sure. But no one is going to use that as a realistic barometer. That was a team that needed to massively overpay if they wanted to land a major free agent.
And it means we now won’t be overpaying for Werth, which thrills me.
The Sox are far from done. I predict that we hear about initial discussions with Derrek Lee in the next 48 hours, just to let the agents know we’re not waiting around (even though we will be doing just that). Then we’ll hear about discussions with Arizona about Upton. Then the deal will come back to life with a more realistic negotiating window and it will get done.
If it were about players, I’d be more worried. But it’s about money and years, and it will work out.
Do we know if Gonzo is still in Boston?
Has he boarded a plane yet?
This whole situation is very odd
Nobody can confirm where Gonzo is. nobody can confirm if they are talking, if they aren’t talking. Nobody can confirm if the trade if for sure off. Nobody can confirm that the sox would still accept the trade and sign him later. So nobody knows anything that is going on right now. The only thing we know if that there isn’t an extension…yet
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
It would have been great if no one could confirm anything before we found out about the trade at all
Would have made this afternoon much less disappointing.
Now we have small hope again because the rumors of how they are still talking.
Just a freaking wierd situation.
We can confirm, however, that Sandy and Sean are about to down James Jones' Kool-Aid.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Honestly, it's not that big of a deal
Theo has caused me to be more of a soccer fan, so I’ll just continue being a soccer fan. Yesterday was nice because I was naturally interested in the Red Sox again.
Yeah
Gammons knows nothing
Edes knows nothing
Boston Globe knows nothing
MLBTR knows nothing
Damnation
Theo Epstein just called me for advice
I said “do the deal Theo”. Then fix our OF and pen.
he said its going to happen.
SELL THE TEAM HENRY, YOU CHEAP BASTARD !!!!!!
Actually, I believe...
He said “Its going to happen, sir”
Wait 'til next/this year?
"Laser show. So relax."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 5, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
Embarrissing
If this deal does not get done, the Sox are the laughing stock of the baseball world. I think the problem is Luccino. Is is a divisive force in the front office, always tweaking players and pissing off agents. Yankees fans are laughing at us now.
Sox want 6 years, they want 8, sounds like a deal that could get done. Offer a 7 year deal for a bit more annual value and put in a team option for a 8th year with a $5 million buyout. We get a great player and they can announce a 8 year deal. Get me in there, I’ll get it done.
And another thing, 37-38 is not rocking chair time for any top professional athlete in baseball, especially a corner IF in the AL that could to DH. And why are some offended at the idea of paying a DH so much? We’re not talking about signing a FA to play DH, we are talking about one of the best hitters in the game, who is a great 1B and has missed like 5 games in his career. So he may have slide to DH in year 7/8, what is the issue if he is still raking?
Heyman says they haven't given up and may do deal without extension.
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
Not gonna front...
w/o the extension gives me the willies a bit.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
that could work
but they would probably have to get the extension done before spring training.
This only happens if
A) They’ve got a quiet opening night deal worked out
B) Theo’s gone stupid and reactionary.
Over the Monster -- SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Site
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It'd be a crappy thing to do, but
OR
C) Option A + negotiating down the prospects with SD
I think that’s too diabolical though – they’d never be able to do a trade with SD again.
Wait 'til next/this year?
"Laser show. So relax."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 5, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
OK with Werth in NL for that deal
I consider Werth the greatest risk among the top free agents. Good for him, but that is a very risky deal for a very good, but hardly elite player IMO.
Crawfish could get 9/200 and I wouldn't be surprised at all.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Dec 5, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
Dunn's contract
looks really cheap now. Were the Sox ever in the running for him? He would provide alot of power.
Which makes Werth's deal look even crazier...
I think Boras pulled a Svengali on them.
Wait 'til next/this year?
"Laser show. So relax."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 5, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
1st? Youk to third, just like what Gonzo would have done.
His D is sub par, but we need power, let’s face it.
You know what you get with Dunn
Ton of homers. Ton of Strikeouts. Ton of walks. Nothing else. Although he was gotten relatively cheap
Pete Abe: Unconvinced that Red Sox-Gonzo is dead. Was 2 p.m. ever confirmed as the deadline? MLB usually grants 72 hours. Odd doings.
Suddenly everyone thinks it’s alive. I hate everything.
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i hate life
trying to write a poli sci paper and all i can do is keep watching this thread
+1
I have work to do, goddamn it!
Wait 'til next/this year?
"Laser show. So relax."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Dec 5, 2010 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
I have homework and stuff, but it doesn't look like that will get done tonight
or tomorrow night
embrace the martian
Twitter: @BoldandBrash
All the other disagreements/garbage aside
Can anyone imagine ANY other team in baseball having a situation like this? Only Red Sox fans seem to have to deal with it.
imagine this (implausible as might might be)
with the werth signing, 1 year of gonzo at 6 million just skyrocketted in value. The sox could take the trade, turn around, and deal him to someone willing to break the bank.
OK with deal w/o extension
Win now. Sox have an excellent chance to make the playoffs in 2011 with A-Gon and another good bullpen arm or two. No prospects in the deal project to be in the bigs before 2012 at best. Lots of baseball to be played between now and then.
Thread has gotten laggy enough. Closing it.
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