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Why the Red Sox Need Jayson Werth/Carl Crawford

We have all heard the rumors by now. The Red Sox met with Carl Crawford in Houston yesterday. They also met with Scott Boras in Chicago to talk about Adrian Beltre and Jayson Werth. Crawford and Werth are reportedly looking for five-plus year deals. When this topic has been discussed, several reporters and analysts have said the Red Sox are "afraid of commitment". Recent history will put that to rest. The Red Sox have signed five-year contracts to John Lakcey, Josh Beckett, JD Drew, Edgar Renteria, and Dustin Pedroia under the Jonh Henry ownership group.

 Only one player on that list has really worked out, and that was homegrown Dustin Pedroia. As I have stated before, the Red Sox are not the greatest in the world in signing free agents. If the injuries were not as bad last year, I tend to think we would not have even been talking about Crawford or Werth. But what happened happened, and it is Boston's due diligence to talk to these players.

 What are their real thoughts? On Crawford, while I do think him coming here is a possibility, they may have been kicking the tires. The New York Yankees have said they want a response from Cliff Lee next week so they can focus on Crawford. Were the Red Sox trying to get in on him now for this very reason? They could try to come to an agreement before the Yankees have a chance, or they could be raising the price on him.

 I really like Carl Crawford. All offseason I have been on the Jayson Werth bandwagon, because I believe Boston needs a right handed bat. But they can get Crawford and also sign someone like Paul Konerko to be that right hander. Crawford would fit ideally into the vacant number three spot in the lineup, batting after the likes of Jed Lowrie, Jacoby Ellsbury and Dustin Pedroia. After him would be Kevin Youkilis, David Ortiz, Paul Konerko, JD Drew, and Salty. I like that lineup, especially seeing the Red Sox were second in the AL in runs without most of those guys last season.

 On the Werth side now, a lot of people have complained why they just didn't sign Jason Bay. My response to that is did you watch him last season at all? I know he had the injury, but before that he was hitting .230 with around three or four home runs. I get the feeling that will not happen with Werth, if only because his swing was made for Fenway park. With Werth in Boston, he would also be a number three hitter. I would still like the Konerko idea, but Werth opens up more doors because you do not have to limit yourself to a right handed first baseman. This opens the door for Derek Lee, Carlos Pena and Lance Berkman.

  I can imagine people are saying that the money is too much for either player, and it is. But you have to overpay for every free agent. Are you telling me that John Lakcey is worth $16 mm, even before last season? Of course not. And it drives me crazy when people say, "I would love Werth for five years, but not six". Well, do you want him or not? It's going to be six years. If they balk at that last year, I will be disappointed. If they want him, they should get him. because you are not going to get Werth for less than $100 mm and six years. Other teams will be willing to give him that, smaller markets than Boston. And that would be a shame. Boston is a huge market with some money off the books. They should be able to sign guys other teams cannot, and hopefully that is Werth or Crawford.

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You can't say Beckett and Lackey haven't worked out.

They’re both only one year into their respective deals. For that matter, you can’t say Pedroia has worked out, dude just destroyed his foot. JD Drew is the only 5 year contract that’s worked out because he is a very, very good player, even in his down years.

Now, Paul Konerko is going to want a multi-year deal, which Boston won’t give him because he’s on the wrong side of 35, so that’s not happening. Of the other 1B stopgaps, only Derrick Lee makes any sense whatsoever. Berkman and Pena both suck.

As for Crawford, the Sox have three small, speedy players already, having four of them kind of makes the team one-dimensional. I think between Ells, Pedroia, and Lowrie, you can get the same sort of value that a Crawford could give you on the basepaths, all without costing 20mm over eight years.

This means Werth makes the most sense out of the two, filling the hole that JD Drew is going to leave in 2012. However there are also a few trades that can be looked at that aren’t quite as dangerous as Werth. Justin Upton’s been thrown around a lot, but the Sox could also deal someone to put Brennan Boesch in Pawtucket and teach him how to hit over a full season. They could stand pat this year and hope Jose Bautista repeats his 2010 numbers, or they could keep a close eye on Kalish and Reddick. Carlos Beltran is also a free agent in 2012, and he seems like he would love to get out of New York.

The Red Sox do not “Need” anyone, they’re a smart organization, and they’ll make the right move.

If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Dec 2, 2010 3:06 PM EST reply actions  

Ugh again with the generalities...

I’ve already given you my argument on “the Sox don’t do well at free agency” thing in your other post, which you have neglected to respond to, so I’ll leave that to you.

But only Pedrioa has worked out? I would argue that JD Drew has been a smashing success here. He’s played great defense, has been an excellent hitter, he’s been a top RF since we signed him and has been worth just about every single penny. Now people need to stop getting on Lackey and Beckett. They’ve been in the league for a while now, can’t people see them for what they are by now? They aren’t tier 1 starters, they aren’t and they never have been. They are however tier 2 starters and THEY GET PAID LIKE TIER 2 STARTERS! The pitching market is greatly overpriced, they get paid in line with their tier, like Burnett. And they perform the same way. But seeing how both these contracts were laid out last year, wouldn’t it make more sense to just say “the jury is still out on those two?” I mean they both could go out next year, post 3.25 ERAs and be 1 and 2 in Cy Young voting, wouldn’t you eat your words then?

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 2, 2010 5:38 PM EST reply actions  

I like you more and more every time I read one of your posts here.

If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Dec 2, 2010 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I find myself agreeing with your posts quite a bit too

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 2, 2010 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

well, before you two run off to the mens room together

“I would argue that JD Drew has been a smashing success here ….blah blah blah” are you serious?

by Mick Lowe on Dec 2, 2010 9:19 PM EST up reply actions  

One Billion Percent Serious Mick

Maybe more so.

I’ll ask you this. In what way has JD Drew NOT been a good player here?

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 2, 2010 9:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Advanced metrics show

that his xHustle make him slightly above league average.

Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.

@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard

by Bloggy on Dec 3, 2010 8:25 AM EST up reply actions  

The average fan doesn't notice his hustle

Because he’s not vocal, like Manny.

If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Dec 3, 2010 8:38 AM EST up reply actions  

good player? no argument

But:
“JD Drew has been a smashing success here. He’s played great defense, has been an excellent hitter, he’s been a top RF since we signed him and has been worth just about every single penny.”

naw, don’t see it, don’t agree

it could be definitions or just plain failure to communicate.

by Mick Lowe on Dec 3, 2010 9:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Gotta completely disagree with you there

Last year was a down year, but really, his $14 million isn’t a crazy amount for a very productive player. Really, look around the right fielders in baseball and see how many have been more productive over his time here. He’s not a steal or anything like that, but he’s been pretty well worth what he’s been paid.

by wolf9309 on Dec 3, 2010 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

i'm good wit dat

i am not comparing him to other players – because i really don’t know who the other players have been for the past 4 years. that is a good point, which i think is accurate.

salaries are just huge numbers that have almost no bearing to me, as a fan.

however, i do consider drew’s salary when judging him.

depending on where the info comes from, he has had 2 mediocre seasons and 2 very good (all-star worthy) seasons – however, one of those was cut short by injury. he faces a ton of right handers in a park, despite what is said, is a great lefties hitting park.

3 issues i’m disputing:

a) ‘smashing success’ – for that to be true, he would have needed 4 very good seasons (injury doesn’t count negative) or the 2 good seasons and a bunch of “clutch” stuff – similar to papi or manny.

b) ‘played great defense’ – he is solid – mike lowell 2007ish solid. i have yet to see him throw a runner out at home. i haven’t seen all the games, but runners are typically sent. his arm keeps him from being a great sox RF.

c) ‘excellent hitter’ – nope. 2 out of 4 seasons doesn’t qualify for the ‘excellent’ label.

the final test:

ask yourself – knowing what you know now, using your money (relative) and going back to 2007 – would you dish out $80m and draft picks for jd?

by Mick Lowe on Dec 3, 2010 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

70M/5 years was the deal, right?

well worth that in my mind. I wouldn’t want to pay him more, but he’s not worth less. I think he may have gotten the most properly valued free agent contract I’ve ever heard of.

by wolf9309 on Dec 3, 2010 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Drew over the years

2011 – Remains to be seen
2010 – 2.6 WAR – 15th in the majors for RF
2009 – 4.8 WAR – 5th in the majors for RF
2008 – 4.0 WAR – 6th in the majors for RF (tied with Ichiro and year was shortened due to injury)
2007 – 1.8 WAR – 16th in the majors for RF

I think he’s played to his contract seeing as a Crawford/Werth is going to get around 17-18 million

by BobZupcic on Dec 3, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

are you saying he's all of the following:

a) ‘smashing success’
b) ‘played great defense’
c) ‘excellent hitter’

also, 15th, 5, 6, 16 in the majors for RF – what number is the out of (denominator)?

i know there are 30 teams but what constitutes making this list?

should a player make his contract or surpass it? no opinions – are there any facts on this, any quotes by mgt to what they expect for a break even? (generally, mgt has to make a bundle on your pay, but MLB may be different – doubtfully, but)

lastly, what number does he rank in pay?

overall, for the 4 years he is ranking roughly 10th (15th + 5 + 6 + 16/4).

and finally lastly:
ask yourself – knowing what you know now, using your money (relatively speaking) and going back to 2007 – would you dish out $70m and draft picks for jd?

($70m thx wolf)

by Mick Lowe on Dec 3, 2010 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Define smashing success the way you see it. Seems like a really weird phrase to be picking up and questioning. I see smashing success as a player who has gone out to do exactly what he was signed to do. Which is where parts B and C come in, he HAS in fact played excellent defense in right field. He’s 33 runs above average in right since the signing. As for batting, his OBP in Boston has got to be around .380, which in my eyes, is pretty damn good, along with a roughly .480 Slugging? I’ll take a .860 OPS any day of the year from a strong defending right fielder.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 3, 2010 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

good points

definitions are needed.

5.0+ war is allstar caliber.
8.0+ war is mvp
2.0-4.9 starter – that’s all
smashing success in thee A to A+ range was my interpretation. which would be somewhere around 6.5 war

i see a player who does what exactly paid for as average

i see excellent as the highest grade A+ 8.0 war

“I’ll take a .860 OPS any day of the year from a strong defending right fielder.” – we agree 100% on that. also, i agree and typed jd was a strong defender but that is not excellent

by Mick Lowe on Dec 3, 2010 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

See, for me smashing success refers to his contract and his performance relative to it. In a league where few players his age do, he has lived up to the contract handed to him. That’s a success, there is no way it isn’t. Smashing might be hyperbole so many people are quick to crap on Drew because “he doesn’t look like he cares” or “is too slow” or “doesn’t hit enough bombs” and doesn’t see him for what he is, a strong fielder, strong hitter and actually worth his contract.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 3, 2010 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

see your point

they don’t apply to me. but i understand your loyalty. Ben hit upon this

i’m only looking at the money – value of pay verse performance. nothing against drew, except i think we are criticizing/judging others at a tougher standard and letting drew be beyond reproach.

strong fielder, strong OBase guy. not sure about his contract yet.

by Mick Lowe on Dec 3, 2010 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

See below about his contract.

The way the math works out, if Drew puts up sub-par Drew season, he’ll probably still have been worth the contract.

Now for judging other players, I assume here you mean Werth or Crawford.

The questions surrounding Crawford are these: How much of his game is speed related and how much will that wear down over course of the 6+ year contract he will likely earn? Further more, in Boston, half of his games will be in Fenway with a small left field, how much of his value is wasted in that? If he refuses to hit lead off, is it a waste of money for a 7-8-9 hitter?

Now as you say, pay vs. performance? He’s had two excellent years lately, 5.7 and 6.9 WAR, preceded by values ranging from 1.9 to 4.8. If we sign him to a 6 year deal worth $110M (a conservative guess), he would have to provide roughly 24 WAR, given the conversion below, or average about 4 WAR a season for the deal, which is doable, but there are still a lot of questions involved.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 3, 2010 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

A WAR of 1.0 is roughly worth about 4 million

using fangraphs estimation. A 4.0 WAR player is worth about 16 million

by BobZupcic on Dec 3, 2010 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Good question on pay

His comparisons using 2008/2009 are Ichiro and Magglio Ordonez

Ichiro – 17 million per
Magglio – ~16 million in 08, ~19 million in 09

and would I sign Drew to a 5/70, I would have considered it – he was coming off of a 4.0 WAR year from LA and was only 31. Probably would not have done the years, but the salary seems about right in today’s market

by BobZupcic on Dec 3, 2010 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Drew has a bad rap due to the contract

Has he been good? Yes. Great by any means? No. I don’t love the contract, but I will agree he is a good player.

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by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 3, 2010 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Could be your failure to pick up on statistics that matter.

Drew’s UZR and WAR numbers are fantastic, his OBP is tremendous, and his OPS is one of the best for right fielders in the game. Sure, he was off this last year, but for the three years before that he’s been one of if not the best right fielder in the game. He also has played more games than almost anyone else on the team since he signed with Boston. I call that a smashing success, especially for under 15 million/year.

If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Dec 3, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions  

you don't have to get snarky

i can’t help but to notice that you snark about my inability “to pick up on statistics that matter” .

unfortunately, your post must have got cut short because all i’m getting is a bunch of your opinions. don’t see all of those stats that matter. and believe me, i’m looking for them. here and elsewhere.

by Mick Lowe on Dec 3, 2010 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Those are the stats that matter

If you count HRs RBI and Batting Average amongst your “important stats” go read up on stats that do matter, OBP, OPS, wOBA, WAR, UZR, and FIP. They’ll tell you a lot more about about a player than any of the former.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 3, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

what?

are you just being a jerk or are you really this stupid?

by Mick Lowe on Dec 3, 2010 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Welcome to the world of sabermetrics

Watch The Internet Sport Show
Help get Lacrosse on SBN. Join the lacrosse community at The Lacrosse Blog
"This team loves to lose in the fourth quarter" - Phil Jackson

by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 3, 2010 7:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I don't think he's intending to be a jerk

mathematically, there’s truth to what he’s saying (well I mean home runs and batting average aren’t unimportant stats, but there are other ones that tells you a lot more about how many runs a player creates on offense).

If you have a chance, I’d read moneyball, it explains some of the principles in a really fun-to-read way. You can disagree with it if you’re so inclined but it does have a lot information that isn’t necessarily common sense.

by wolf9309 on Dec 3, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

i may have misunderstood him
"Those are the stats that matter

If you count HRs RBI and Batting Average amongst your "important stats" go read up on stats that do matter, OBP, OPS, wOBA, WAR, UZR, and FIP. They’ll tell you a lot more about about a player than any of the former."

what is he talking about?

“If you count HRs RBI and Batting Average amongst your "important stats" go read up on stats that do matter”
 
my interpretation is i’m being misquoted, big time and told to smarten up. but who counts hr’s, rbi, and ba and who said "important stats" ?

if you read Bob’s input and where i’m going with it, this drew thing isn’t looking like the slam dunk signing folks think. i’m curious to see how it plays out.

i have read moneyball. excellent book. almost done with another mike lewis book and then going to get his latest.

i’m looking at drew’s signing more from the perspective of the financial payback of the contract, while using established stats like the group Bob lists above. pay vs performance.

by Mick Lowe on Dec 3, 2010 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

In a league where most long term contracts fail

Drew has been worth every penny of his. Management wise, it was a perfect signing and I’d do it 100 times out of 100.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 3, 2010 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

your opinion - i see no facts there

the same opinion 90% of the monster has, that’s why i took it on.
ben explained to me before how the drew thing worked but i underestimated his words of wisdom.

by Mick Lowe on Dec 3, 2010 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

No it’s FACT, if you subscribe to the WAR to value multiplier, which isn’t as bad as some would say, it’s just defining the marginal cost per win in MLB and then multiplying it by WAR, JD Drew has in FACT been worth every penny of his contract. Using the same methodology, most long term contracts do not end up being worth the money put into them. Not opinion, just plain fact. The Drew contract has been a valuable contract.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 3, 2010 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

sorry, lost another post

i’m not following your way completely.

using war: war is the value multiplier above average (wins above average/replacement).

value multiplier times average (salary) equals the marginal cost per win above average.

ok, i think we are on the same page.

now question is: earning his salary doesn’t accomplish anything for mgt – no payback – unless because of circumstances like clutch, world series, etc that don’t matter for our discussion. so therefore, i think he should be worth more than $14M a year, but $14m will be good, because of what you stated about other long term contracts.

so he would need to be around 20 war when contract is complete

by Mick Lowe on Dec 3, 2010 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it’s roughly $4.5M per win, depending on any given season what teams are paying for wins, we and the Yankees inflate that number while the Pirates try their damnedest to deflate it.

JD Drew will make $70M over his contract. In order for him to be worth it, he will have to provide roughly 15.5 WAR over the contract. So far he’s been worth 13.2, to have been worth his contract he needs to provide about 2.3 WAR this next season.

Now the next thing to consider is this: the free agent market is different for players who sign deals at his age than compared to a Pedrioa or Youkilis, we bought out their arbitration years and extended them to very team friendly contracts that they will very likely live up to and provide value to the team. When Pedrioa and Youkilis hit their NEXT contract, they will not be anywhere close to cost effective as they used to be as they cash in on their work. Drew is what they will be. Players signing big deals like that rarely live up to them and usually end up providing negative value to the team just due to the way the market is, high quality players aren’t common so they get signed to fill holes teams have that can’t be filled by younger more cost effective players.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 3, 2010 9:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm going with jerk

Douchebaggery is optional, stupidity is for life and I ain’t stupid.

The latter stats are a better indicator of the offensive (defensive for UZR) value of a player. If you handed me two players.

Player A: .240 Ave/18 HRs
Player B: .240 Ave/18 HRs

Using those two they are identical.

Now throw in OBP.
Player A: .370
Player B: .300

Now Player A is EASILY the better player.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 3, 2010 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

rn read bob's ditty above

i’ve been using war and know will use war relative to his peers.

avg/hr’s etc not discussed by me. not here and i don’t think anywhere.

i have small obp weight concerns but know full well and have for ever, that obp trumps avg.

by Mick Lowe on Dec 3, 2010 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

You said you were looking for:
Stats that matter

After TLD mentioned UZR, WAR, OBP and OPS. So either those stats don’t matter to you, or your phrasing was horrible because clearly your point never got across.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 3, 2010 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

he didn't provide the stats

i see the disconnect

i get it now

“Drew’s UZR and WAR numbers are fantastic, his OBP is tremendous, and his OPS is one of the best for right fielders in the game. "

i was asking for the numbers to go with the acronyms.

i wasn’t trying to be lazy, i just wanted to make sure one group of numbers from one source was used. i had found two – bob supplied the one i’m using going forward.

Bob has provided a great

by Mick Lowe on Dec 3, 2010 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

But to argue your point rather than your phrasing:

The Red Sox need neither Werth or Crawford. They just don’t. Our outfield going into last season was Ellsbury, Cameron and Drew. And that was good enough. This year, it’s going to be Ellsbury, Cameron and Drew as it stands. People will complain about offense lost by Beltre and Victor but neglect to bring up the offense gained by Youkilis, Pedrioa, Ellsbury and Cameron.

The real issue comes in next season when Drew likely retires and Cameron’s contract expires. And that is an issue, but not one I think that can be solved by handing out 5+ year deals to two players attached with the question marks that Crawford and Werth do. For Werth, what is the end of his peak, why was he a late bloomer? For Crawford, how much will his speed wear down with age, how much will his defensive value (arguably his major divergence from Ellsbury) be wasted in Fenway for half the contract, added on to that, does he really refuse to play CF or bat leadoff? Those are things to be weary of and consider when we determine what contract to offer and to whom.

With Werth, here’s the thing, Werth will go for less than $100M, that is for sure, why? Because he is so much like Jason Bay it isn’t funny. Same age going into contract year, both seemingly capable of a 5 WAR ceiling, Career WARs are 22.2 for Werth, 22.9 for Bay. Bay is a slightly better career hitter while Werth is a better defender. Bay signed for 4/$66M with an option for a 5th at $17M. I think this is the perfect precedent to use when negotiating with Werth. And also why I believe that going beyond a 6th year is a major mistake. I know you hate that argument, but why isn’t it valid? I want Werth, I think he’d be a great addition but at what point does wanting become obsessing to the point where you’re hurting the future of the team? Keeping yourself realistic is a major thing when it comes to contracts.

Realistically the Sox WILL NOT sign Werth to a 6 year deal. They just won’t. They are an organization that looks at the options, pursues them all but has a set cut off point they will not go beyond. We told Texiera, have fun in New York, we aren’t offering more. We told Bay, listen we like you, but your knee scares the shit out of us, have fun in New York. They told Victor, listen, we love you here and this is our offer but we aren’t going higher and boom, Victor was gone. To say we should sign Werth to a 6 year deal is just pure rosterbation with no feet in reality considering the organization you are talking about. To sign Crawford to more years and money considering the questions above? It’s the same category. The Sox have managed to put together a damn good team whilst evaluating the risks of free agency. I don’t see them switching course suddenly and going out of their way to sign players to contracts for positions we already have adequately filled for next year.

If they cost more than a certain cut off point, do not pursue, we have an outfield and we’ll take the next year and figure out what to do next season as it comes when more might be available on the trade market, when the next Jason Bay becomes available. And that too may have one foot in rosterbation land. Epstein doesn’t like to trade prospects, mostly because they turn into Pedrioas and Youkilis’ and Papelbons and Lowries. However, we’ve got a large amount of the team locked in long term and a lot of good prospects in the minors being blocked. I don’t think Iglesias has a future with this team but is a major trade chip, Doubront can be a starter but would be limited to the bullpen here. Those two could be the start of a decent trade with someone for a good outfielder who we can feel a lot better about for the next 5-8 years as compared to a Werth or Crawford.

In terms of signing a 1B instead, the idea is appealing a little, however I think Lowrie can be a pretty good 3B. His bat loses some of it’s luster but a .900 OPS is a .900 OPS and I’ll be the last to complain about that. People are quick to forget how well Scoot was at short before his injury. We would be fine there with him retaining his position.

The fact of the matter is that as the team stands, we aren’t as in much trouble as some would suggest. We put out a very competitive team last year that was held back by injuries, we will lose some, but a rebuilt bullpen and rotational health can make up for a lot of that lost ground, let alone our positional players returning.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 2, 2010 7:31 PM EST reply actions  

this is a very well thought out, awesome post.

And it seems pretty much right on to me.

The one thing I disagree with you about is I believe the offense does need help somewhere. Having Youk, Pedroia, and Ellsbury for a whole year will be very big, but I don’t think will mitigate the loss of Martinez and Beltre last year. I think outfield is the best place to do that because that’s where the most appealing free agents are and that’s where we’ll have the biggest hole next year. So Werth, and then Crawford are, for me, the number one priority. After that, however, there are other options besides the two. They could give a guy like Derrek Lee a shot to have a bounceback year (and would provide a test for Youk at third), effectively replacing Scutaro and Beltre with Lee and Lowrie. A guy like LaRoche could also have a shot. Or, I still wouldn’t be shocked if they found a way to get Gonzalez. There’s also options at third- McGehee is the one that stands out the most to me.
Other than that, right on I think.

by wolf9309 on Dec 2, 2010 7:54 PM EST up reply actions  

They should be our top priorities

But like I said, I don’t expect us to change course, we closed our wallets on Tex, VMart and Bay, I expect we’ll be the same with Werth and Crawford, there will be another team a little more desperate than we are. As much as I’d like to have either, realistically, I’m not sure the FO will.

I think the rental 1B option is a little more likely, I’m sure one of them could be had for a year or two.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 2, 2010 8:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Especially a rental like Lee

They could use Lee for a year to see how Youk does at first, like you said. After 2011 when Lee walks the Sox pick up a decent pick, Lee’s pretty locked into type A status. After 2011, players like McGehee and Headley are one year closer to free agency and are that much more expensive for small-market teams like San Diego and Milwaukee. I won’t lie, as much as I’d like to see Adrian in Boston, I would be even more excited about Headley, he could very well be a younger version of Beltre here with our hitting coaches.

If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Dec 2, 2010 9:37 PM EST up reply actions  

My only worry about the 1B rentals

Is that we’ll get stuck with a Konerko or Pena, rather than a Lee or LaRoche, since the latter would probably garner a multi-year deal SOMEWHERE.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 2, 2010 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Konerko could probably get at least a two-year deal

After the psychotic numbers he put up this year.

If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Dec 2, 2010 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd do it,

if Beltre leaves. Youk to third, Konerko to DH in 2012.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Dec 2, 2010 10:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Perfect

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by Marisa Ingemi on Dec 2, 2010 11:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Love Konerko's bat

hate him in the field. I’d definitely prefer Lee.

by wolf9309 on Dec 3, 2010 9:21 AM EST up reply actions  

In order of preference

I have Beltre, then Headley and McGehee, then Lee, then Adrian, then Lowrie at third, then a squirrel with a bat, then Konerko.

He’s going to get a 2-3 year deal, which I don’t want the Sox to do for a 39 year old first baseman who can’t play defense.

If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Dec 3, 2010 9:27 AM EST up reply actions  

"a squirrel with a bat"

Dude, Pedroia's already on the Sox

by wolf9309 on Dec 3, 2010 9:38 AM EST up reply actions  

We could have two.

Think of the scrappiness…

If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Dec 3, 2010 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm sorry but

I just do NOT want David Eckstein playing third base.

by wolf9309 on Dec 3, 2010 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Eckstein's not a squirrel. He's too little.

More like a chipmunk.

If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Dec 3, 2010 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd rather Konerko than LaRoche

They’re both “eh” fielders, and Konerko is a much better hitter.

Especially if we end up with three lefties in the outfield.

Manny ain't the only bad man.

by tommy.otm on Dec 2, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe

In my mind, Konerko’s decline before this season was much larger than it actually ended up being.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 2, 2010 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Not to mention he's about as good defensively at Papi.

If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Dec 2, 2010 10:57 PM EST up reply actions  

*as Papi.

If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.

by TheLoneDavid on Dec 2, 2010 10:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Largely agree, Marisa

I like Crawford and believe he is the lesser risk, even if the $$ commitment will be much more. Werth is a nice player, but not in Crawford’s category. And I’m also amused by the folks that slice and dice the years and dollars here; 5 years not 6, $50 million not $60, gimme a break.
As far as the Yankees and Crawford, if they want him they can easily work both the Lee and Crawford negotiations at the same time. That being said, I don’t think the Yankees are truly comitted to Crawford. They have a fine OF now with Gardner/Granderson/Swisher, but they could look to move Swisher to DH and Gardner to right. I woldn’t put it past them.

by Scoop1981 on Dec 3, 2010 1:25 PM EST reply actions  

they've already told Posada he's gonna be their main DH

I doubt they’d do that publicly unless the didn’t want him catching much.

by wolf9309 on Dec 3, 2010 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

We slice and dice because well...

That’s how the Red Sox do business. They have a cut off point in every negotiation and will walk away if it gets beyond that. It sounds nice to say “yeah let’s sign Crawford to what he wants” but how realistic is that with our management? Not very.

So be amused all you want, we who suggest that Werth is better on a 5 year deal but wouldn’t do 6, have two feet firmly in Red Sox reality because that’s just the way we do things.

"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.

by Rogue Nine on Dec 3, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

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