AL Gold Glove Winners: Reputation Comes Before Reality
by Ben Buchanan on Nov 9, 2010 5:06 PM EST
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PrintOnce again, the Gold Gloves have proven incredible. And I don't mean that as a superlative, I mean really, they're not credible.
| Position | Winner |
|---|---|
| Pitcher | Mark Buehrle |
| Catcher | Joe Mauer |
| First Base | Mark Teixeira |
| Second Base | Robinson Cano |
| Shortstop | Derek Jeter |
| Third Base | Evan Longoria |
| Outfield | Ichiro Suzuki |
| Outfield | Carl Crawford |
| Outfield | Franklin Gutierrez |
Red Sox fans--and baseball fans in general--have heard this spiel before, but Derek Jeter? Really? The evidence has shown time and again that Derek Jeter is not a good shortstop. He's not even average. He's just bad. And yet, time and again, he's given credit as one of the best because...
Actually, I can't say I understand what it is that gives a player a reputation for good defense these days.
Sure, some of the names are impressive defenders. Evan Longoria, Ichiro Suzuki, and Franklin Gutierrez are all certainly great fielders by anyone's estimation-statistical or otherwise. So is Joe Mauer despite the fact that his defense is harder to quantify, and Carl Crawford even though he refuses to leave the unimpressive left field position.
But let's talk Mark Teixeira, please. Too often I've heard even more statistically-minded baseball fans citing Teixeira as an elite defender, but where's the--oh God, am I really going to say this--where's the beef? He can pick balls out of the dirt or air fairly well, and he's got good reflexes on balls hit sharply at him, but in the last five years he's only had one convincingly impressive defensive year according to any metrics (yes, even ones that take into account positioning and said picking balls out of the dirt/air). Otherwise, he's been consistently average, maybe a little above, maybe a little below.
He strikes me as the new Torii Hunter. For a few years, Hunter was one of the best defenders in the game. Then he started to decline, but still kept picking up the accolades even as he started hitting rock bottom. Even the experts at the fielding bible, some of them having created the very statistics that show him to be average, seem subject to the siren call of reputation, voting him the fourth best fielder this year*. Once that reputation is earned--and make no mistake, Teixeira did earn it earlier in his career--it's tough to kick.
*Perhaps it only stands to reason that the actual votes he received are so polarized, with three first place votes and then no more coming in before sixth.
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Two Yankees deserved them.
Robinson Cano and Brett Gardner.
Other than that. WRONG.
Replace Jeter with Andrus and Teix with Youk or Barton.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. " ~Rogers Hornsby
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Damn you, reasonable Yankee fan.
I can’t deal with this…
Say something about signing Cliff Lee for seven years and $280 million dollars; or trading David Robertson and Mike Adams for Joe Mauer and his salary… Please?…
(obv. j/k)
Wait 'til next/this year?
"Laser show. So relax."
by nuthinboutnuthin on Nov 9, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
Canot actually started strong but ended mediocre.
Again, built a quick reputation, had Joe Morgan go nuts for him, and BAM.
Gardner was absolutely a snub though.
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Just for the record, "Canot" was not on purpose. Though I might now have to use it in the future.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 11, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
Cano didn't.
UZR rated him as below average. DRS rated him better, but still behind Hudson, Hill, and Kinsler (who all were rated better by UZR as well).
I thought Cano was as good a pick as any
he certainly improved a lot, and for obvious reasons him fielding pct helped him get the award. I don’t know if I saw any standouts. Kinsler is better but he missed a ton of time this year. Hudson scored very well by UZR, but my impression from all I’ve seen and heard is that was more of a statistical aberration than anything else. Hill is pretty good. I’m not sure if there was really anyone eligible that stood out.
yeah Jeter and Tex were a little absurd for picks
I agree with yours. I don’t think that Youk really had any chance because he missed so much time (and at the end of the year), but I think Andrus and Barton would’ve made a lot of sense.
Oh well, at least I don’t have to listen to Joe Morgan spewing about the amount of gold gloves on the Yankees anymore.
Alexei Ramirez and Barton
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 10, 2010 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
Youk was hurt
losing a huge chuck of the season basically kept him out of the running.
Hey, wasn’t Mauer hurt early on?
Maybe with Jeter & Tex’s big salaries they are able to lobby better, like the Grammys & Oscars. Grease a few palms on a road trip, you know.
This is getting fairly ridiculous after losing any credibility years ago.
simul justus et peccator
Mauer was hurt early on, but not for long
still played more than almost any other catchers.
And in any case, these are all voted on t the end of the year. Players injured at the end are out of sight, out of mind.
I feel for a guy like slap hitter Juan Pierre who played his heart out and lives for the game.
He played in 160 of 162 games, 1330 IN, 13.4 UZR, .997 fielding %, only made 1 error all year, and gets beat out by three great fielders: Crawford, Gutierrez, and Ichiro.
At least he can fall back on the 5yrs/$44 mil that the Dodgers handed him in ’07. Not bad bucks for an outfielder with a career .366 SLG.
No slight to Jeter but...
….GG voting has been a joke at least since Palmeiro got the award after playing about 20 games at 1B. Until the process and/or voters start taking metrics (fielding percentage, range, zone rating, etc.) then it will continue to produce less than deserving winners.
by mg050369 on Nov 9, 2010 8:36 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
+1
I can understand some leaning toward reputation, but there’s a limit to that.
Raj Ghetia
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
The problem with the voting..
a third are MFYs and two of the outfield are Mariners. I think Gutierrez and Ichiro are good outfielders, but I think Brett Gardner should had gotten it instead of Gutierrez. Jeter shouldn’t have gotten the gold glove, that is either sloppy, or some sort of NY bias.
This is just sloppy and makes a mockery of the award.
I'm not so sure I'd say Gardner deserved it over Gutierrez.
Yes, UZR loved Gardner this year. But Gutierrez also plays an elite center field in a huge ballpark, as compared to LF in Yankee stadium. Gutierrez also has an elite track record and reputation, important when defensive metrics aren’t stable for so long.
So do I think Gardner deserved a GG? Yes, probably. But can I say 100% he should have had it over those 3 guys? Maybe not. Especially not based on UZR, it’s just too unreliable in small samples to directly compare, they’re all elite outfielders, but UZR can’t say much more than that.
Ichiro was probably the least deserving of the trio, really.
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Less deserving than Jeter?
Raj Ghetia
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Trio
As in outfielders.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 9, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
I meant to ask...
Is Ichiro less deserving than Jeter?
My bad on confusion.
Raj Ghetia
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
Exactly.
And yet, Ichiro still had the 3rd highest OF UZR, best RF UZR, and the deserved reputation for being one of the best outfielders in the game for the last decade, I can’t really bring myself to argue.
That's the issue with UZR and just labelling it "OF"
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 9, 2010 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
Curious
If Buehrle broke his arm the first pitch of his second game, would he still have won? I think so.
"We are not normal, We are Legends. People will tell their kids about us." - Deon Butler before Ohio State Game 2008.
I pretty much said that today, too.
He was great defensively, but it was all of one play that won him that award.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 9, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
Voters
Who votes? Is it players and managers? I’ve played in my fair share of slow pitch softball leagues. I and other partcipants could easily pick out the better defensive players. I find it hard to believe that professionals with a better trained eye and a 162 game evaluation period struggle to make sound selections. I wonder if many are lazy voters who don’t take the process very seriously.
Jeter won because of his jump-spin move.
Sports writers love the jump-spin move.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
# of Errors, FTW.
And compare that to the # of games/games started and you see why Jeter wins. That’s all it takes it seems, nothing else.
By that logic, I guess he’s deserving, but think about the number of errors he’s being forgiven for because he’s Derek Jeter.
Raj Ghetia
"Common sense is quite rare." - Voltaire
Resident Psychologist and Tech Support at Over the Monster: SB Nation's Resident Red Sox Web Site
And the number he's missed by virtue of not getting to a ball.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 9, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
total joke
can u blv they gave jeets a golden gluv? what a joke. i hope the skanks waste 600 mil on a 10 yr deal w/that worn piece of crap a’hole…
It’s funny because this is the first time I think Yankees fans are mad about their own players winning awards. Over at a thread at PA we have about 200 comments asking why Jeter (and some Teixeira too) won the gold glove. I agree with Jeterian that Cano and Gardner deserved it, not Jeter/Teixeira.
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so Cano and his -0.9 UZR/150 deserved the award?
by German Red Sox Fan on Nov 9, 2010 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
You are not in luck, I am one of (if not the only) MLB blogger here on SB nation that doesn’t use/know sabermetrics. Based on that being negative, I’m guessing that is a bad thing. I was assured that his sabermetrics are good! Maybe that’s wrong, if so, maybe he shouldn’t have gotten it. It’s funny that the best candidate for the Yankees didn’t get it.
Writer for Pinstripe Alley, MLB Daily Dish
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R.I.P. Freddy 'Sez', Bob Sheppard, George Steinbrenner
It basically means that Cano was slightly worse than the average AL 2B!
Gardner has extremly good sabremetrics but he is compared to other LF and they are generally the worst fielding OF thats one factor why his stats are that high. I believe if you hand out 3 GG for OF they should all go to CF, i mean if you are that good defeding in the OF why do you play in LF and not in CF? The only exception should be if you have a GG CF on your team.
by German Red Sox Fan on Nov 9, 2010 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
I generally agree that if not all, the majority of outfield gold glovers should be center fielders. Gardner really should be the Yankees center fielder, but I understand should doesn’t really matter to voters. I doubt voters are using more than what they’ve seen considering who votes.
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Someone who does not know sabermetrics?
High five!
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by Marisa Ingemi on Nov 11, 2010 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
We have Web Gem disease when it comes to Cano. He has good range up the middle, an excellent throwing arm (cue the Joe Morgan “shortstops arm” soundbite) and makes very fast an accurate pivots.
However, his range to the 1B side is mediocre, he rarely if ever dives to at least knock balls down, and can be succeptible to the occasional bone head play.
But because he can make some truly beautiful looking plays on slow ground balls up the middle, he has the appearance of being a fantastic defender, and he’s really not. He’s vastly improved and above average, but not the best in the AL.
The only Yankee that really deserved the award was Gardner, and of course, he was the one who got snubbed. And yes, Jeter winning is absurd and the selection process is a joke.
Is that enough contrition for you, Red Sox Nation?
Questions or thoughts? Email me at duggan2423(at)gmail(dot)com
by Lord Duggan on Nov 10, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
much like Ellsbury in 2009
If one goes by Web Gems, he was the incarnate of Ken Griffey Jr. circa early 1990s. When he got really bad reads on balls.
Yep
We agree on all counts, sir.
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by Ben Buchanan on Nov 10, 2010 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
As a 5-time GG winner, the MFY have to pay Jeter what he wants now
:-)
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
Personally, I'm hoping Captain Intangibles wants 20/4000 or so.
He deserves it! He’s the face of the franchise!
Fenway: "An alternate and better universe, disguised as a ballpark." --Thomas Boswell
They should make him SS for life
I gotta go 'cause I'm probably definitely gonna nod out again.
by Drugs Delaney on Nov 10, 2010 9:09 AM EST up reply actions
Really just a best player at position award
Look at the winners. With the exception of Buherle, the list looks like a good fantasy baseball lineup. At least most are among the best fielders, or at least are very good defensive players at their positions. These awards, including MVP, have a way of morphing over time. I believe it is mix of players, managers and writers vote for the award, and players may value reputation and stature more than writers or fans.
No writers vote for GG.
Players and managers only vote and they can not vote for any player on their team.
Oh, really?
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by Marisa Ingemi on Nov 10, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Yup. It's true.
Apparently we know more than all the players that are actually on the field.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Great article over at MLB.com...
on why coaches/players aren’t exactly the most qualified to make a decision on Gold Glove awards. Article here. This was actually published before the awards were announced yesterday, so I would have to say I agree even more now.
Thanks. Good article.
But if I read that correctly, it’s only managers and coaches voting? Not the players?
Or is Leach focusing his criticism on the managers and coaches?
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
@#$%ing Twit: @blogtard
Good question, I'm not sure
It seems like he is only talking about managers/coaches, but I believe players also vote.
Either way, I agree with him that the award shouldn’t be left to the sole discretion of voters who might only see a player six games in a season. I believe that’s what the statisticians call a “small sample size,” but I could be making that voodoo up.
For the record
Gold GLoves are voted on by the players and managers. So there’s not really any sort of bias going on. I think those were the same people who voted Jeter the most overrated player in baseball in SI. Oh well.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
This is such a joke
Andrus should have got it at SS
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Umm no.
At least direct your indignation in the right direction. Technically should have been Alexi.
Strikeouts are boring- Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.
by CasanovaWong on Nov 10, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Can that pinstripe photo be taken down please.
If I wanted to see those two faces when opening OTM, I’d just go to a yanks blog.
How about putting this one up so we have something to look forward to in ’11.
+1
I love that picture.
If I was your math homework I'd be really hard and you'd be doing me on your desk.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
by TheLoneDavid on Nov 10, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
where did you find that?
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by Marisa Ingemi on Nov 10, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
There's a copyright thingy on the bottom
For SoxNation.net. Likely there, I suppose.
Galactus does as he pleases. Because Galactus is drunk.
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